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quote:
Originally posted by Yardbird:
RobV,

RobV-“I never post on these marshall threads”

Yet you do, are you confused about what you do?
And this is not even a Marshall thread?


Why don't you write the rest of what I wrote if you're going to quote me:

"I never post on these marshall threads either because they never end, and it wears me out too. I just thought I'd put my 2 cents in this time."

Loser.

Yard Bird ______________________________________________
Wvmnter,

“Just for the record, I don't believe in Dr. Marshalls' teachings.”

And how is the tall ones arm health lately?
_______________________________________________


His arm health is great. For some reason, there has been a rumor that he had been out because of arm trouble. Although he had some soreness in his arm at one time, I attribute this to compensation from the injury to the lower half.

Unfortunatley he had the same groin surgery as Roy Oswalt and Donovan McNabb. He had hip surgery after that (the doctor said the hip was genetic) His arm is good though. Thanks for asking.

If you are who I think you are, I hope all is going well for you down in SM. All of the HD kids loved working out with you.

The only reason that I don't believe in Marshall is because if it was a better way to throw, he would not be kept away from baseball and his students would be in professional baseball. That's my total criteria.

I might be totally wrong and I'm willing to apoligize if one of his students make it. I'm not a kinesiology expert. I just can't believe professional baseball would shun a kid if he could pitch, no matter what mechanics he was using. That funky (different) delivery would be distracting to a hitter.
Last edited by wvmtner
YardBird

Even if a pitcher has arm problems, it does not always mean that their mechanics are bad. You know that pitching puts a tremendous strain on the arm regardless of Traditional/Marshall mechanics.

I really feel in "The Tall Ones" case, he started getting soreness in his arm because of his lower half injury. I won't get in a debate with you. I know that you have a lot more ammunition than I do.
Last edited by wvmtner
None of these pitching instruction guys get it right. Some of them get some of it right but none of them get it all together. The best thing you can do to learn proper pitching mechanics is to watch some of the great pitchers who had long successful careers. Watch them at full speed and in slow mo form several different angles and figure it out. Ignore pitchers with a lot of injuries no matter how hard or well they throw when healthy. I like to study Nolen Ryan; you won't find any better. If you start following these pitching instructors you will go off on tangents that don't work. Forget them and go to the source to figure the mechanics out.
quote:
Originally posted by jwest:
None of these pitching instruction guys get it right. Some of them get some of it right but none of them get it all together. The best thing you can do to learn proper pitching mechanics is to watch some of the great pitchers who had long successful careers. Watch them at full speed and in slow mo form several different angles and figure it out. Ignore pitchers with a lot of injuries no matter how hard or well they throw when healthy. I like to study Nolen Ryan; you won't find any better. If you start following these pitching instructors you will go off on tangents that don't work. Forget them and go to the source to figure the mechanics out.


Can you give a detailed description of "getting it right?" Does that mean all the students of a certain pitching instructor will gain 10mph and never experience a single injury? Or does it mean that a good pitching guy will help improve a pitcher's skills any way he can? Using a little common sense will go a long way in determining how knowledgeable and credible a pitching guy is.


You can't expect to find a pitching instructor who has a single method that will be the magic formula for building a great pitcher. A good pitching instructor is knowlegdeable but not so conceited to think that his way is the only way. No two pitchers are exactly the same and they respond to different things in different ways. This isn't news to anyone. But a good pitching instructor is always learning from other people and trying different things to help get the results that everyone wants. Mills, House, Ryan..etc, they all have something valuable to bring to the table.
Have House DVD, Mills, DVD, Ryan book and more. None of them teach or explain the proper way to use the legs to generate power. They may say to get to this position or that position but not how to get the power from the legs. Worse, some of what is taught is wrong. It is my oppinion that the best source for learning mechanics is by studying those who have the best proven mechanics. We can disagree on that I ain't selling anything anyway. But when you find that you or your pitcher hits a stone wall after doing exactly as taught by an instructor I guess you might want to think about studying tape.
Bobblehead- There's aproblem with your example. What Ryan did and what House taught at the time were diametrically opposite. To his credit, House is closer to what Ryan did with his lower body. House was a "nothing happens until foot plant" kind of guy. He has changed his thought process and is now about 95% in line with the Stroms, Wolforths, etc. of the world as they espouse to start "rotating into foot plant".

quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Nolan and House seem to get it all right since they co author a series of pitching books. Trying to emulate a pitcher is very difficult at best. A great instructor can help put the peiced together by breaking down the sequeces and putting the sequences together properly.
Last edited by ncball
jwest- So, how do you best generate power with your legs?

QUOTE]Originally posted by jwest:
Have House DVD, Mills, DVD, Ryan book and more. None of them teach or explain the proper way to use the legs to generate power. They may say to get to this position or that position but not how to get the power from the legs. Worse, some of what is taught is wrong. It is my oppinion that the best source for learning mechanics is by studying those who have the best proven mechanics. We can disagree on that I ain't selling anything anyway. But when you find that you or your pitcher hits a stone wall after doing exactly as taught by an instructor I guess you might want to think about studying tape.[/QUOTE]
Last edited by ncball
Ncball my recollection was that he like the stride leg to slide down the mound until almost touching down.
The opposite was what I refer to as lunging which is the way some teach.
As far as watching pros that is fine but many have awful mechanics. It is also very hard for pitchers to critique their own mechanics. It seems that there are several greeat instructors and to say House doesn't teach properly is ridiculous.
jwest...how many people of the general population can just look at a pro pitcher's mechanics and really understand what's going on? sure they can try and do what they see that pitcher do but seriously...normal people can't just take some film of nolan ryan and go to the backyard and "get it right." Does film of pros have its place? Sure...but to say none of them get it right at all is just not smart and a misrepresentation. But as everyone...you're entitled to your opinion, which is all that was.
quote:
Originally posted by pro97:
jwest...how many people of the general population can just look at a pro pitcher's mechanics and really understand what's going on?


I remember advice given by bbscout. If you want your son to learn how to pitch, instead of spending money on lessons, watch some old games of Greg Maddux.
If there is no value in watching why do some milb teams show films of pitchers to get their points across? Or some college programs and MLB teams use templates of those with proven mechanics to overlay the film of their pitchers?
Last edited by TPM
quote:
None of these pitching instruction guys get it right. Some of them get some of it right but none of them get it all together. The best thing you can do to learn proper pitching mechanics is to watch some of the great pitchers who had long successful careers.


I can't quite get to your spot here..House is an active pitching coach on a top tier D-1 school, he actively works with guys on a daily basis..now you may find issue with the completeness of what he has written, but to say the man credited by the guy you write such glowing admiration for (The Express), who worked with and is credited by Randy Johnson and even more recently Cole Hamels, doesn't get it right is imo just plain incorrect. I have met several pitching coaches/instructors (College, Pro..) in my lengthy time kickin on this side of the dirt..not one of them is an emulator..they, every single one of them, takes the mechanics presented individually by each pitcher and attempt to make as efficient as the body, arm and style can. I mean if emulation is all there is to it why isn't every single pitcher throwing exactly as Maddux..23 years, Cy's, 300+ wins, 3000+ K's, low era and never arm/shoulder injured..ever. Even old Nolan had bone chip surgery several times. It doesn't work, Johnson doesn't throw like Clemens..or Maddux or Glavine..so many different styles, body types, conditioning, experiences to emulate isn't what any major league pitcher did to get in the majors, they took what they had and built on it. Not that much can't be learned by watching pro's work..to the contrary many things can be absorbed..heck I preach learning from Maddux all the time, but what I expect a kid to learn is his approach, his preparation, his study, his conditioning, I don't expect him to clone himself into The Great Greg.
Now do I think that Mills, or Marshall or N Y M A N is of the caliber of House, no, they lack proven results over time, they lack established top tier MLB stock that vouch for their validity, until they get that, IMO they fall short of Tom House who has pitched in the bigs, coached in the bigs and is still actively training on the D-1 level.
JDFROMFLA: Never said emulate. But there are certain parts of the mechanics of major league pitchers that they all perform. It is the bases of their ability to perform at that level. That is what must be gained from studying tape.

I had thought Ryan had only one bone spur surgery early in his career. No mater. His arm action was different at that time; he changed it and hence all those relativly injury free years.
quote:
I had thought Ryan had only one bone spur surgery early in his career. No mater. His arm action was different at that time; he changed it and hence all those relativly injury free years.


He had them off season, never really messed up his season.
I agree that aspects of mechanics have commonality, at the same time I was addressing your post in which you intimate that studying film is all that is needed and that "guru's" don't get quite there. My point is that Tom House is actively coaching. Not that it's cataclysmic for me to disagree but there are aspects of a delivery that can benefit from coaching, for example, timing and posture are very difficult to get the jist of via film. Now believe it or not I consider myself the "anti-guru"..I don't think there is one pat way in which a pitcher is developed. This forum is an excellent example of that, Bum, Bobblehead, TPM, me, we've all had our kids develop into college level and beyond pitchers and we all have differing takes on how best to get there.
bobbleheaddoll

Use of legs and core, timing. Arm action differs; however, there are common elements of arm action in those pitchers who are relativly injury free and those whom are injury prone.

I think one of the things that is commonly missed is how much push there is with the posting leg and that the push starts as the leg lift is at or near it's high point and stops before foot plant. The manner that the lead leg swings to it's final position before foot plant and also the bending of the posting leg knee as the lead leg drops and the function of that knee bend.

I agree that mechanics break down in vary subtle ways.
One of the 1st things a head P coach/scout from the Blue Jays emphasized was that you do not push off the rubber. In fact you cannot push as your leg collapses as in your description. Physically impossible. Your view is one of the most common views and that is why the PC emphaises that. You will find lots of people here who believe that view.
There are also no exploding hips which is also impossible to do while pushing off, collapsing etc.
What you are descibing is lunging and it is a very poor way to throw a ball.
In fact the power is delivered when your chest is out over the the thigh of your stride leg when you thyrow properly. It comes from the upper body and arm which is unloading while the lower body is stabalized. In physics it is called rotating around a fulcrum and the push is off the plant leg as you power the ball just before you finish and release the ball. That is why you release the ball out front.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
I don't beleive you understand me or we will have to agree to disagree. No push equals no forward momentum. Note I do not say a push off the rubber. The foot is pulled off the rubber. I also do not use the term lunge or exploding hips or leg collapse. Note that I say the push stops before foot plant. As such the posting leg foot cannot be pushed off the rubber.

I would also note that you cannot move towards the plate as the knee bends without a push. Unless it is your position that the posting leg knee does not bend.

My discription in the previous post is vary brief. Perhaps too brief for a complete understanding but I am rushed.
I reread your description and you say the push starts when the leg is near the top of the lift. I agree the post leg collapses slightly as you start t5o slide tha landing leg down and out as you move forward to plant. The post leg suports the whole body and maybe that is what you are calling push.
As the body moves forward down the mound the post foot is dragged and that also gived lower body support. Once the lower bodt sets up it becames a stable base for the upper body to unload witch is a couter to the upper body so it can lerverage all the torque it is capable of. It is about a controlled delivery allowing you to repeat it over and over and giving you max effort and control. If you are in fact watchinjg MLB pitchers you will notice that the lower half slows down early to set up the upperbody rotation.
When I read your description you seem to contradict what you said. The power comes when you are out over the landing leg and you don't need to push with your post leg at all. In fact the post leg kicks up and follows the body as you finish.
The other point is that most pitchers set their post foot in front of the rubber and if you were goimg to psuh off the rubber would be the best place to push from.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
BobbleheadDoll's statements are common among the Mills supporters/followers. That's why I maintain that the people who have used his system in the trenches, picked them apart and personally used the mechanics, and then comparing his statements on mechanics that produce high velocity throwing to mechanics of pro pitchers, never found the critical aspects of the mechanics that enable ballistic movements to be evident within his system, but found the system as stated by Mills to teach velocity limiting mechanics.

quote:
One of the 1st things a head P coach/scout from the Blue Jays emphasized was that you do not push off the rubber.
How can anyone who projects out and down a ramp (on an initially bent post leg) 85-100+% of their height from a virtual standstill, do so without pushing forward? Maybe the people saying there is no push don't understand the amount of push that is required to defy gravity going down the ramp to prevent early foot contact into landing, and those people discount it as negligible. Then when the student takes the "no push" as DON'T PUSH, they in turn teach themselves how to lock up their femurs and hips when going down the ramp.

As stated to me by Mills, the reason (he says) there is no push is because.........I have not found a way to teach the push, and because I can't find a way to teach it, it must not happen in the first place.....and if I'm so smart, how do I teach it?

............ then again, it's hard to convince anyone of this if you aren't an ex pro instructor.


yes cap-n and add to that the length of their stride and one cannot duplicate even their stride lenght without a push. Ryan, Rivera, Schilling and many others could not reach their stride length without a push.

Without a push there is limited sideways momentum towards the plate. It is the increased sideways momentum that increases the rate at which the hips will rotate.

There are two pushes. One as decribed above from the top of the leg lift which gets the hips moving sideways towards home plate. One might get a feel for it by simply bringing their posting leg knee inside their posting leg ankle as they bend the posting leg knee and start the down ward swing of their lead leg.

The other is when the lead leg foot starts to rotate to foot plant and the hips start to open. The posting leg ankle straightens and it is a push with the ankle. Actually the whole posting leg straightens but it is the ankle that provides this push.

Once the ankle is fully extended (just before foot plant) there is no more push and the posting foot is then pulled off the rubber.

A bit more about the bend in the posting leg knee as the lead leg starts its downward arc. It gets the hips out front so that the pitcher leads his sideways movement with his hip. It provides balance by keeping his wieght back and loads the posting leg for the final push with the ankle as the hips start to open and allows the hips to unlock so that they can rotate forcefully.
BobbleheadDoll-

House, Mills...same thing. Mills took a few "well known and respected" pitching authorities and tried to meld all the common aspects of all pro throwers to yield a set of mechanics for all throwers.....didn't work. I suppose that once the new found systems that were sold to the public didn't pan out so well for the students (limiting velocity) the next best thing was to figure out why and adjust from there.

I haven't kept up with any amended text from any of these "well known and respected" instructors for the past eight years. From what I read here, they have changed their views several times on what is required to throw hard off the mound.

quote:
Cap were are all those pics you like to show ?
No need for me to post, they're all over the place being used by others.


BobbleheadDoll-
quote:
....he cranks on the ball while dragging his toe to get leverage.
.... as a descriptor for a dragging, sliding, rolling post toe action being used as a stable base from which power is derived, this does not make sense. What I see is a dragging toe being pulled away from the rubber as a product only of a leap off the rubber area which produces a stride length in excess of the pitchers height.

........... then again, it's hard to convince anyone of this if you aren't an ex pro instructor.

BobbleheadDoll-

I've met, listened to and discussed mechanics with MLP pitching instructors. Their thoughts on various stages of throwing mechanics are not set, they vary from coach to coach. And because of this huge variance, I've come to the conclusion that sometimes common sense is the best course. No pushing off is an absurd statement with Lincicum and Morris leading the way with the contradiction. And although I don't personally teach their leap style because of the complexity of going into and out of the landing, there's not a thing wrong with it. I've offered simple mechanical proof in the past that proves the existence of lateral force at the posting foot.

I enter topics such as this one to try to offer other avenues for all to think about before the students are subjected to a so called absolute that will eventually ingrain a mechanic that will limit velocity. And I do know how hard it is to un teach dramatic mechanical errors.

IMO that "there is no push" is a gimmick or new revelation in a secret to high velocity mechanics. The subject of pushing off the rubber should never be mentioned unless the push needs to be modified....not eliminated.

........... then again, it's hard to convince anyone of this if you aren't an ex pro instructor.

Check here for a sample.

Last edited by cap_n
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
This guy who looks like Linsecum hardly collapses his post leg at all wnich would be required to get real push off the ruubber. More of a drop and drive motion With leverage starting at toe drag.
He appies crank as he extends his chest out over the plant leg thigh which requires a stable lower half.


This is Lincecum in college at UW (University of Washington).
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Cap not an instructor but a current pro P scout who instructs during the off season. At the sessions he broke down the mechanics into 4 basic elements . I videoed it and he clearly emphasized "No Pushing Off". He in fact said that you will hear people tell you that you push off. He said other things but I don't want to start a secodary discussion.


No high-level pitchers just falls off the rubber (aka tall and fall).

Everybody at least pushes off the rubber to get the hips moving sideways through the top and out of the leg lift. Lincecum does it much more than most, which is why he gets airborne for a frame or two. He has to push harder and longer than most due to his small size.

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