Video of the pitch
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Ok... I am going to say yes it was intentional though I wish I could see more pitches to see how the catcher reacts to other pitches on the outside.
I would not have walked off the field... I would have dumped the coach, pitcher and catcher... Then called the police and filed an assault charge. I might have also forfeited the game...
I would not have walked off the field... I would have dumped the coach, pitcher and catcher... Then called the police and filed an assault charge. I might have also forfeited the game...
It's definitely intentional. The catcher is a rookie...it's not a new trick and the catcher is supposed to step out as if he's expecting a pitch out then appear to dive back at the last minute so it appears that it's not intentional.
I agree TX-ump, dump both of them and the coach.
I agree TX-ump, dump both of them and the coach.
Old fashion "grill job"
No brainer.
That umpire is tough as nails too.
That umpire is tough as nails too.
Yes, it was intentional. The C dropped to block the ball as if it was in the LH batter's box. I would have expected the P, C and Coach to get dumped. If I were the ump, I wouldn't have filed any charges.
With that being said, who the hell does the P and C think they are?!? The P is throwing 80 (maybe) and the C can't receive worth a ****. Perhaps if they did their job better, the umpire wouldn't "miss" calls.
With that being said, who the hell does the P and C think they are?!? The P is throwing 80 (maybe) and the C can't receive worth a ****. Perhaps if they did their job better, the umpire wouldn't "miss" calls.
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:
Yes, it was intentional. The C dropped to block the ball as if it was in the LH batter's box. I would have expected the P, C and Coach to get dumped. If I were the ump, I wouldn't have filed any charges.
With that being said, who the hell does the P and C think they are?!? The P is throwing 80 (maybe) and the C can't receive worth a ****. Perhaps if they did their job better, the umpire wouldn't "miss" calls.
Redbird... why wouldn't you file charges? Though the umpire wears equipment we still can get hurt, broken hand, arm or fingers, possible concussion. They conspired to hurt you...premeditated assault...
quote:Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
Redbird... why wouldn't you file charges? Though the umpire wears equipment we still can get hurt, broken hand, arm or fingers, possible concussion. They conspired to hurt you...premeditated assault...
Because, IMO, you are stooping to their level. Just my opinion and you don't have to agree with it. Why involve law enforcement with no persistent threat? and, yes, I know the persistent threat is not germane to an assault charge.
I would have forfeited the game and done whatever I could to make sure that team, players and coaches never played in another tournament by that sanctioning body. I think that punishment is more relevant and equitable than pursuing legal matters which, most likely, be no more than a slap on the wrist.
quote:Originally posted by funneldrill:
It's definitely intentional. The catcher is a rookie...it's not a new trick
An extremely chicken s*** trick that has obviously been taught. Screw 'em all, but especially the coach.
IMO, it's no different then when a runner goes in spikes up! It's intentional and defensive players can get seriously injured. And usually the ump doesn't see it as malicious and runner doesn't even get tossed.
I do agree that it was intentional and players and coach should be ejected from the tourney and team forced to forfeit and ejection from tourney.
I do agree that it was intentional and players and coach should be ejected from the tourney and team forced to forfeit and ejection from tourney.
quote:Originally posted by NuffSaid:
IMO, it's no different then when a runner goes in spikes up! It's intentional and defensive players can get seriously injured...
I disagree with your comparison. When I slid into someone, I wasn't trying to intentionally hurt them, just disrupt them. I played SS and had no problem with people trying to take me out as long as they didn't mind me coming down on top of them with my elbows and knees. I didn't want to sprain a wrist landing on them. Of course, given enough time, they wouldn't have a chance to take me out lest they get 'earholed'.
And, the umpire is not a defensive player (obviously). He is an official and should be treated as such. He is defenseless, whereas the fielder is not.
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:quote:Originally posted by NuffSaid:
IMO, it's no different then when a runner goes in spikes up! It's intentional and defensive players can get seriously injured...
I disagree with your comparison. When I slid into someone, I wasn't trying to intentionally hurt them, just disrupt them. I played SS and had no problem with people trying to take me out as long as they didn't mind me coming down on top of them with my elbows and knees. I didn't want to sprain a wrist landing on them. Of course, given enough time, they wouldn't have a chance to take me out lest they get 'earholed'.
And, the umpire is not a defensive player (obviously). He is an official and should be treated as such. He is defenseless, whereas the fielder is not.
We can agree to disagree, but in my original quote I stated "a runner that goes in spikes up". To me, a normal take-out slide is far different than a "spikes up" slide that is meant to intentionally injure a player.
quote:Originally posted by ironhorse:quote:Originally posted by funneldrill:
It's definitely intentional. The catcher is a rookie...it's not a new trick
An extremely chicken s*** trick that has obviously been taught. Screw 'em all, but especially the coach.
You are correct ironhorse. In all my years coaching I'm glad to say I've never seen it done.
Throw them out along with the coach. Lesson learned. File charges? Seriously? That's whats wrong with our country now everyone wants to file charges or sue someone rather than just taking care of it themselves. They are a couple of 16 year old kids making a dumb decision. Let's go ump toughen up and take charge of the situation yourself.
quote:Originally posted by throw'n bb's:
Throw them out along with the coach. Lesson learned. File charges? Seriously? That's whats wrong with our country now everyone wants to file charges or sue someone rather than just taking care of it themselves. They are a couple of 16 year old kids making a dumb decision. Let's go ump toughen up and take charge of the situation yourself.
I would have to agree with you throw'n. I think filing charges is a bit much.
Now, I'm not an umpire so I have to admit that I don't walk in their shoes. There is a fine line here no doubt. If there were an argument and the pitcher struck the umpire, I could see the umpire filing charges. I guess the incident in the video could be interpreted as assault since the ball was used as a weapon. Ball...fist...what's the difference? I guess I'm talking myself into siding with tx-ump here.
I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what kind of case the ump would have. But if he feels that strongly about it, he has the right to bring legal action against the pitcher. So would the catcher and coach be charged with "Conspiracy to commit assault?"
These are the some of the important questions that need to be answered in the dog days of August!!!
Next thing will be hearing is a batter filing a lawsuit on a pitcher because he got it at the plate.
and the ump for not taking control of the game before it happened.... If I was that ump I dump the catcher, pitcher and coach end of store.
and the ump for not taking control of the game before it happened.... If I was that ump I dump the catcher, pitcher and coach end of store.
This was not only intentional, this was criminal. Criminals need to be stopped and punished. Would you not file charges if some 16 year olds jumped you? Actions have reactions. Criminal actions have severe repercussions. Not filling charges sends the message we our not accountable for our actions. I have a full time job, that pays full time wages, with full time benefits. Neither my family, nor my employer can afford to have me miss work, because some punk kid does not like my strike zone. Responsibility and accountability go hand in hand, just like ham and eggs. We are responsible for our actions, and should be held accountable for our actions. Ejection is not near severe enough penalty for this criminal act.
Blind guy I really hope you are not in any way affiliated with baseball in a coaching or officiating capacity. In your mind we should lock up every big league pitcher who ever played the game. They have all thrown at a player on purpose.
quote:Originally posted by throw'n bb's:
Blind guy I really hope you are not in any way affiliated with baseball in a coaching or officiating capacity. In your mind we should lock up every big league pitcher who ever played the game. They have all thrown at a player on purpose.
According to his profile. Blind guy is an umpire. Scary huh?
quote:Originally posted by Blindguy:
This was not only intentional, this was criminal...... We are responsible for our actions, and should be held accountable for our actions. Ejection is not near severe enough penalty for this criminal act.
I'm trying to remember what happened to that one country...remember a long time ago???...where the leader ran around arbitrarily declaring things were criminal and then assigned the severity of the punishment as he saw fit...something about a police state, then a holocaust, then a complete collapse....started with a "G", I think...
So... if a kid throws a ball at me in the parking lot after the game what is the difference? What about the catcher that just recently threw and hit square in the back the base runner that just scored in a Legion game? Should the pitcher that threw and hit the fan in the MiBL (but was throwing at a player)what about him?
Sorry, the intent was to inflict injury... I would file charges on the pitcher, catcher and coaches...
Sorry, the intent was to inflict injury... I would file charges on the pitcher, catcher and coaches...
What about that kid from Denison in his between inning warm up of the infield, purposely threw at some young kids on the other side of the fence and broke some young kids jaw?
quote:Originally posted by Texas Crude:
What about that kid from Denison in his between inning warm up of the infield, purposely threw at some young kids on the other side of the fence and broke some young kids jaw?
Did not hear about that... what was the result?
I think I read this when I visited Yad Vashmen, I think a Pastor named Niemoller gets credit: First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out -- because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out -- because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Umpires, and I did not speak out -- because I was not an Umpire. Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.
I could be wrong on the wording, they may have subisituted the word "Jew" for "umpire".
I could be wrong on the wording, they may have subisituted the word "Jew" for "umpire".
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that umpires in this country aren't yet to the point of being considered a "persecuted class"...
But I think the parking lot scenario Tx brings up is good to consider. Clearly that's assault. Same with the boy who threw the ball at the kids, and the guy who threw the ball at a player's back. So is there a difference? There's no equipment protection, and the victim is not engaged in a baseball play, and not set in a ready position to deal with it.
An umpire behind the plate is expecting that something could happen resulting in him getting hit with the full speed of the pitch (a truly crossed signal, tipped off the glove, foul ball, misplayed hop, etc.) When trying to convict a kid of criminal assault, I think you would have to recognize that the catcher at least was aware that the umpire has equipment and should be ready. In other words, he's not attacking someone with no way of defending himself, and with no equipment.
Again, not to say it isn't a despicably unsportsmanlike thing to do.
But criminal assault?
But I think the parking lot scenario Tx brings up is good to consider. Clearly that's assault. Same with the boy who threw the ball at the kids, and the guy who threw the ball at a player's back. So is there a difference? There's no equipment protection, and the victim is not engaged in a baseball play, and not set in a ready position to deal with it.
An umpire behind the plate is expecting that something could happen resulting in him getting hit with the full speed of the pitch (a truly crossed signal, tipped off the glove, foul ball, misplayed hop, etc.) When trying to convict a kid of criminal assault, I think you would have to recognize that the catcher at least was aware that the umpire has equipment and should be ready. In other words, he's not attacking someone with no way of defending himself, and with no equipment.
Again, not to say it isn't a despicably unsportsmanlike thing to do.
But criminal assault?
quote:Originally posted by wraggArm:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that umpires in this country aren't yet to the point of being considered a "persecuted class"...
But I think the parking lot scenario Tx brings up is good to consider. Clearly that's assault. Same with the boy who threw the ball at the kids, and the guy who threw the ball at a player's back. So is there a difference? There's no equipment protection, and the victim is not engaged in a baseball play, and not set in a ready position to deal with it.
An umpire behind the plate is expecting that something could happen resulting in him getting hit with the full speed of the pitch (a truly crossed signal, tipped off the glove, foul ball, misplayed hop, etc.) When trying to convict a kid of criminal assault, I think you would have to recognize that the catcher at least was aware that the umpire has equipment and should be ready. In other words, he's not attacking someone with no way of defending himself, and with no equipment.
Again, not to say it isn't a despicably unsportsmanlike thing to do.
But criminal assault?
What does equipment have to do with anything????
What happens if I get hit "when it is a set up" and I break my arm and can't work? I take that risk on my own during normal play. With all of your examples I have taken every one of those but that is a risk I am willing to take, I will not set myself up to take an assault and again equipment has nothing to do with it... what you state above holds "NO WATER" it is premeditated...
Well I knew the Police Officer had a Vest on... so I shot him in the chest instead of the leg so I knew I would't hurt him to bad?
TX-Ump,
I will let the others get into the back and forth but I did want to bring up something that hasn't been brought up - that whether right or wrong historically the law doesn't always apply in sports arenas. If a batter charges a pitcher and they fight on the mound, it isn't criminal. If the same kid charges that kid in the parking lot of that same baseball field there is a higher chance he is in handcuffs.
Do you not think you take these risks as an umpire? Most players understand they could be intentionally hit, charged, spiked, run over etc. but it is and has always been written off as a possible price to pay if they want to play. Nothing is perfect.
I don't believe anyone is siding with coach/pitcher/catcher...that would be crazy. Most do understand why there wouldn't ever be criminal charges though.
I will let the others get into the back and forth but I did want to bring up something that hasn't been brought up - that whether right or wrong historically the law doesn't always apply in sports arenas. If a batter charges a pitcher and they fight on the mound, it isn't criminal. If the same kid charges that kid in the parking lot of that same baseball field there is a higher chance he is in handcuffs.
Do you not think you take these risks as an umpire? Most players understand they could be intentionally hit, charged, spiked, run over etc. but it is and has always been written off as a possible price to pay if they want to play. Nothing is perfect.
I don't believe anyone is siding with coach/pitcher/catcher...that would be crazy. Most do understand why there wouldn't ever be criminal charges though.
How about you high school umpires pull up a seat behind the chain link backstop for safety and call games from there. Strike zones and calls probably wouldn't be much worse or different.
quote:Originally posted by TX-Ump74:quote:Originally posted by Texas Crude:
What about that kid from Denison in his between inning warm up of the infield, purposely threw at some young kids on the other side of the fence and broke some young kids jaw?
Did not hear about that... what was the result?
Not sure what happened to the player. After the kid was hit, the player admitted to throwing over there on purpose to mess with them. He didn't intend to hit anyone in the face. I have to guess this was two seasons ago because it was Denison against one of the Frisco teams in a division game.
quote:Originally posted by iluvgoodbaseball:
How about you high school umpires pull up a seat behind the chain link backstop for safety and call games from there. Strike zones and calls probably wouldn't be much worse or different.
Any time you would like to take a shot at it cause it is so easy just let me know, I can hook you up and let you try it out. I will even make sure you get a double game fee...
I think RLB makes a very good point. Perhaps in hockey I remember charges being filed, but your point is still valid. In 2008 an umpire was hit intentionally in Georgia. The Georgia High School Athletic Association launched an investigation. The result of the investigation was a $1000 fine assessed to the High School of the offending players. The catcher had a D3 scholarship. That scholarship was rescinded, when the college coach learned what happened. From what I can tell, no criminal charges were filed. The article said the umpire retained a lawyer, I assume for a civil proceeding. Civil proceedings were not the topic of discussion here. I imagine the kids to whom Texas Crude refers may (or may not) have pursued matters in civil court.
Quote:
BossHoss
Yes I did and It's hilarious! Reminds me of the time I was coaching in Great Bend about four years ago. We had a traveling team and was playing those snobby Great Bend Legions boys. We were getting squeezed big time, foul balls that were fair ,strikes that were called balls, etc. I make a trip to the mound to talk to pitcher and the catcher joined us. I said keep your cool we're winning 5-4. Catcher spoke up and said "Coach their strikes". I said "are you 100% sure?". He said "yes'. I said "you know what to do right"? He says "yup" I said "okay great"! "The next strike he throws and its called a ball I want you to call a high fastball and at the last minute pull your glove down and let it grill him in the chops! Boom it happened, then I yelled, "wake up your missing a great game! Then I got ejected! True story.
Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2011/07/...s.html#ixzz1VuaKngS8
BossHoss
Yes I did and It's hilarious! Reminds me of the time I was coaching in Great Bend about four years ago. We had a traveling team and was playing those snobby Great Bend Legions boys. We were getting squeezed big time, foul balls that were fair ,strikes that were called balls, etc. I make a trip to the mound to talk to pitcher and the catcher joined us. I said keep your cool we're winning 5-4. Catcher spoke up and said "Coach their strikes". I said "are you 100% sure?". He said "yes'. I said "you know what to do right"? He says "yup" I said "okay great"! "The next strike he throws and its called a ball I want you to call a high fastball and at the last minute pull your glove down and let it grill him in the chops! Boom it happened, then I yelled, "wake up your missing a great game! Then I got ejected! True story.
Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2011/07/...s.html#ixzz1VuaKngS8
If balls are balls, and strikes, are strikes......End of Thread, Call it right
Hey Tx-Ump74, don't get offended. I was just trying to look out after your safety. After all; if your job is comparable to that of a police officer you definately need more protection.
quote:Originally posted by Texas Crude:quote:Originally posted by TX-Ump74:quote:Originally posted by Texas Crude:
What about that kid from Denison in his between inning warm up of the infield, purposely threw at some young kids on the other side of the fence and broke some young kids jaw?
Did not hear about that... what was the result?
Not sure what happened to the player. After the kid was hit, the player admitted to throwing over there on purpose to mess with them. He didn't intend to hit anyone in the face. I have to guess this was two seasons ago because it was Denison against one of the Frisco teams in a division game.
It was against Frisco Centennial, at Centennial. The kid was removed from the game and I had heard that he may have been suspended from the team.
It was against Centennial. The 2nd baseman for Denison launched a throw at some kids standing between the 1B dugout and the batting tunnel. I believe the Denison coach removed the kid from the game immediately. Criminal charges were being considered at one point because one of my umpires was subpoenaed. I don't know how it played out.
quote:Originally posted by iluvgoodbaseball:
Hey Tx-Ump74, don't get offended. I was just trying to look out after your safety. After all; if your job is comparable to that of a police officer you definately need more protection.
Not offended... just waiting for you to take me up on my offer... just let me know...
quote:Originally posted by Mickey Mantle World Series:
It was against Centennial. The 2nd baseman for Denison launched a throw at some kids standing between the 1B dugout and the batting tunnel. I believe the Denison coach removed the kid from the game immediately. Criminal charges were being considered at one point because one of my umpires was subpoenaed. I don't know how it played out.
Yeah, the parents of the kid injured were very upset, understandably. I later heard from them that the Denison player had been in trouble before. I never asked what happened. I know it was tough for the injured kid to have his mouth wired-shut for several weeks.
quote:Reply
Can I sit behind the backstop Tx-Ump? With the job being this dangerous I would really feel better.
quote:Originally posted by throw'n bb's:
Throw them out along with the coach. Lesson learned. File charges? Seriously? That's whats wrong with our country now everyone wants to file charges or sue someone rather than just taking care of it themselves.
No, what is wrong with this country is our youth have adapted to not being responsible for their actions.
"Taking care of it themselves"???
Like the umpire throwing a ball back at the kid and hitting him in the chest? Ha! And how do you think that would have stayed out of the courts?
Maybe a good *** whipping by his dad would have taken care of it.
But then again, if the dad was willing to give a good *** whipping I doubt the two clowns would have had the courage to do what they did.