quote:Can you give examples of deliveries you dont like of pitchers with scap loads that dont make an M.
quote:Originally posted by micmeister:
What about Eric Gagne?
I haven't seen any video of him, so I don't have a solid opinion of him.
Also, I have not yet figured out the root cause of elbow problems.
Shoulders are easy. Elbows are hard.
quote:Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Other than the inverted "W" which you've already identified, what else about his mechanics do you not like?
The M/Inverted W is his biggest flaw by far and has contributed to both his elbow and shoulder problems IMO.
Other things that I don't like, but that are not as big of a deal, include...
- Landing on his heel
- Locking his GS knee
- His finishing position
PAIN GUY
You have no professional background to be making these assertions---if you can "think" about shoulders "think" about elbows
Anything is easy for someone who"thinks" as you do
You are very scary for young kids reading your posts
Typical cyperspace cowboy garbage---"I think therefore it must be so"
You have no professional background to be making these assertions---if you can "think" about shoulders "think" about elbows
Anything is easy for someone who"thinks" as you do
You are very scary for young kids reading your posts
Typical cyperspace cowboy garbage---"I think therefore it must be so"
Chris, please give an example of a delivery you dont like were the pitcher does not make an M.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
You have no professional background to be making these assertions
I've already answered this question.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
if you can "think" about shoulders "think" about elbows
I am. I just haven't figured out the pattern yet.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
You are very scary for young kids reading your posts
So do you think that kids should be taught to make the M/Inverted W when you don't see it in the mechanics of...
- Greg Maddux
- Randy Johnson
- Roger Clemens
- Nolan Ryan
- Tom Seaver
- Sandy Koufax
I have asked Pain to describe exactly what the M and W are. Where are the hands,elbows etc that make these good of bad for your arm ?
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Chris, please give an example of a delivery you dont like were the pitcher does not make an M.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Chris, please give an example of a delivery you dont like were the pitcher does not make an M.
Other things that I think are problematic are...
1. Timing problems (aka Habitual Rushing) where the shoulders start turning before the PAS forearm is vertical. This is typically related to Labrum problems. You can see this in the mechanics of...
- Robb Nen
- Kerry Wood
- Mario Soto
2. Breaking the hands with the elbows ala Chris Carpenter and BJ Ryan (e.g. elbows at the level of the shoulders with the forearms hanging down vertically beneath them). I believe that this is related to both elbow and shoulder problems.
3. Showing the ball to CF/2B. This causes you to pronate too early which then forces you to supinate the forearm through the release point. If you look at guys like Maddux, they show the ball to 3B.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I have asked Pain to describe exactly what the M and W are. Where are the hands,elbows etc that make these good of bad for your arm ?
The M/Inverted W occurs when the pitcher's Pitching Arm Side elbow goes both above and behind their shoulders ala Mark Prior and Anthony Reyes.
I don't think this is injurious in and of itself, but it leads to problems by increasing the distance over which, and the force with which, the PAS upper arm externally rotates.
If you look at Greg Maddux's PAS elbow, it never gets much higher than this.
If you want to read more about this, I have written a piece on...
- Scapular Loading
...and a piece that explains exactly what my problem is with the...
- Inverted W
All of this is based on what HOF-caliber pitchers do (and do not do).
So Chris how do you isolate all these things to arrive at a conclusion ? I am puzzled how you can arrive at a causal effect relationship unless you can isolate these things. There are also several body types that can handle these motions better thab others which would skew your results as well.
In my opinion you are trying to fit your conclusions to what you think you see.
I assume your M is when the elbows are shoulder high and the forearm hangs staright down. After hand break that is impossible to avoid doing.
In my opinion you are trying to fit your conclusions to what you think you see.
I assume your M is when the elbows are shoulder high and the forearm hangs staright down. After hand break that is impossible to avoid doing.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I assume your M is when the elbows are shoulder high and the forearm hangs staright down. After hand break that is impossible to avoid doing.
Neither Greg Maddux nor Randy Johnson do it, so it's clearly not as unavoidable as you think.
If you look at the clip below of Randy Johnson, you'll see that his PAS elbow never goes above the level of his shoulders, and only reaches the level of his shoulders at the release point.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
So Chris how do you isolate all these things to arrive at a conclusion ? I am puzzled how you can arrive at a causal effect relationship unless you can isolate these things. There are also several body types that can handle these motions better thab others which would skew your results as well.
What I'm looking for are patterns.
I'm trying to see if guys who do similar things (e.g. Inverted W) end up with similar problems. For example, if I'm right, then Anthony Reyes will end up with similar problems as Mark Prior (first elbow then shoulder) due to his similar mechanics. Similarly, I think that Aaron Heilman and Joel Zumaya will have similar problems as Billy Wagner due to their similar arm actions.
It's certainly complicated, but I don't think it's an unsolvable problem.
However, I don't think I'll ever get this perfect due to anatomical variations (e.g. acromial clearances). Still, that's better than where we are now IMO.
Painguy
First of all--I did not ask a question---I made a statement---
To answer your second "I think" aspect I am saying kids need to learn from people who know what the heck they are talking about---not thinking it should be so---
You also dont answer all the questions---but you post great photos with your "thinking" lines"
I ask again: what makes you the asspert?
First of all--I did not ask a question---I made a statement---
To answer your second "I think" aspect I am saying kids need to learn from people who know what the heck they are talking about---not thinking it should be so---
You also dont answer all the questions---but you post great photos with your "thinking" lines"
I ask again: what makes you the asspert?
TR,
Interesting "typo".
Interesting "typo".
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
TR,
Interesting "typo".
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
That is not a "typo"---not in the least
Just describing a cyberspace cowboy who "Thinks", as he terms it
Just describing a cyberspace cowboy who "Thinks", as he terms it
quote:All of this is based on what HOF-caliber pitchers do (and do not do).
with execeptions that dont fit your bias study...
TR,
Please put a "T" before the "PG" on your above post!
Wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong idea.
Please put a "T" before the "PG" on your above post!
Wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong idea.
PGSTAFF
Taken care of---didnt even think of it as you saw it---
Please accept my apologies
Taken care of---didnt even think of it as you saw it---
Please accept my apologies
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
with execeptions that dont fit your bias study...
Drysdale's career was cut short by a shoulder problem.
Feller spent 4 years, during the middle of his career, serving his country in WWII. That is long enough for any possible problems to heal. As a result, you have to view Feller as having 2 separate careers.
Smoltz spent several years in the bullpen due to elbow and shoulder problems.
Also, as I have said before Smoltz's M isn't as pronounced as Prior's is.
I think that's a significant difference.
Martinez has recently been on the DL due to shoulder problems that stretched back into last year. If you look at current tape of him throwing during his rehab, you'll notice that the M has been replaced by a W.
I should have made myself clear. This so called M is insignificant. The important part is that the elbows are at or near shoulder height. Forms a T with the spine since you like letters so much. Whether the forearm on the glove arm goes straight out or rotates down and out is of no real importance.
One drill we used was to put a broom stick through the shoulders behind the neck to stress where the elbows should be and to rotate the shoulders as your would finish your throw.
The clips you show all show good elbow height.
*You always pick phptos in different stages of the delivery.
One drill we used was to put a broom stick through the shoulders behind the neck to stress where the elbows should be and to rotate the shoulders as your would finish your throw.
The clips you show all show good elbow height.
*You always pick phptos in different stages of the delivery.
I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here, but...
B]What happened to the original topic of this thread?[/B]
It seems that over the past several weeks whenever a thread is started it gets hijacked into the great debate or whatever you want to call it over the alleged 'studies of thepainguy'.
I'm not standing up for either side here, it's just frustrating to be reading and re-reading pretty much the same thing regardless of the topic of the original thread.
Like if there is that much discussion to be had about whatever it is thepainguy is doing or claims to be doing or involved with or whatever, why not start a thread for it? So that people who are interested in the said topic of the threads don't have to read about something that is totally off topic?
Just my thoughts...
B]What happened to the original topic of this thread?[/B]
It seems that over the past several weeks whenever a thread is started it gets hijacked into the great debate or whatever you want to call it over the alleged 'studies of thepainguy'.
I'm not standing up for either side here, it's just frustrating to be reading and re-reading pretty much the same thing regardless of the topic of the original thread.
Like if there is that much discussion to be had about whatever it is thepainguy is doing or claims to be doing or involved with or whatever, why not start a thread for it? So that people who are interested in the said topic of the threads don't have to read about something that is totally off topic?
Just my thoughts...
painguy
Drysdale=all time record for consecutive starts made. 13 years of dominant HOF pitching isnt "cut short."
Fine, Feller had two seperate HOF careers. You say he had time to heal during the WWII... I dint know that he was hurt prior to his military service.
Being a flame throwing closer is not easier on your arm IMO, its tougher on it...Check out their shelf life(hard throwing closers). There have only been a handful that have pitched past 10 years....Billy Wagner is one of them. Smoltz is now 40ish, still throwing gas, and still winning.
Pedro is 35 (probably 38) and dominated for a decade and change. Hes been pitching professionally since the 80's, yet his M has something to do with his injuries? A 5'9 150 pitcher dominates for 10+ years and you question his arm action?
quote:Drysdale's career was cut short by a shoulder problem.
Drysdale=all time record for consecutive starts made. 13 years of dominant HOF pitching isnt "cut short."
quote:Feller spent 4 years, during the middle of his career, serving his country in WWII. That is long enough for any possible problems to heal. As a result, you have to view Feller as having 2 separate careers.
Fine, Feller had two seperate HOF careers. You say he had time to heal during the WWII... I dint know that he was hurt prior to his military service.
quote:Smoltz spent several years in the bullpen due to elbow and shoulder problems. Also, as I have said before Smoltz's M isn't as pronounced as Prior's is. I think that's a significant difference.
Being a flame throwing closer is not easier on your arm IMO, its tougher on it...Check out their shelf life(hard throwing closers). There have only been a handful that have pitched past 10 years....Billy Wagner is one of them. Smoltz is now 40ish, still throwing gas, and still winning.
quote:Martinez has recently been on the DL due to shoulder problems that stretched back into last year. If you look at current tape of him throwing during his rehab, you'll notice that the M has been replaced by a W.
Pedro is 35 (probably 38) and dominated for a decade and change. Hes been pitching professionally since the 80's, yet his M has something to do with his injuries? A 5'9 150 pitcher dominates for 10+ years and you question his arm action?
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Drysdale=all time record for consecutive starts made. 13 years of dominant HOF pitching isnt "cut short."
It's certainly less than the 20+ years that some have racked up.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Pedro is 35 (probably 38) and dominated for a decade and change. Hes been pitching professionally since the 80's, yet his M has something to do with his injuries? A 5'9 150 pitcher dominates for 10+ years and you question his arm action?
Again, it's less than the 20+ years that some have racked up.
I think I'd be willing to have my son have the career that Pedro has, as would pretty much any ballplayer's parent.
What is the average length of a MLB pitcher's career? 3 or 4 years? Pedro has been in the Majors 15 years so far. Pedro opens a bit early and puts some "extra" stress on his shoulder as a result. Of course that also helps him get such great movement. Pretty good tradeoff if you ask me.
What is the average length of a MLB pitcher's career? 3 or 4 years? Pedro has been in the Majors 15 years so far. Pedro opens a bit early and puts some "extra" stress on his shoulder as a result. Of course that also helps him get such great movement. Pretty good tradeoff if you ask me.
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
His stuff is reminiscent of Jake Peavy (but with better arm action) and Mariano Rivera.
If you saw Peavy from behind, you'd be FLOORED by his movement.
Stuff like Rivera??? How, he didn't even throw a cutter.
painguy
22 years of pro ball and counting....
quote:Again, it's less than the 20+ years that some have racked up.
22 years of pro ball and counting....
quote:Originally posted by itrogas44:
If you saw Peavy from behind, you'd be FLOORED by his movement.
I have seen Peavy from behind and his movement is tremendous.
quote:Originally posted by itrogas44:
Stuff like Rivera??? How, he didn't even throw a cutter.
Are you saying that Rivera doesn't cut the ball?
Deleted
quote:Stuff like Rivera??? How, he didn't even throw a cutter
...refering to David Kopp, in which you compared his movement to Rivera.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Pedro opens a bit early and puts some "extra" stress on his shoulder as a result. Of course that also helps him get such great movement.
Do you think that opening early is generally helpful in getting movement? Lateral or downward movement? I personally think that opening early is harmful to accuracy, as well as being potentially injury inducing, but movement is good....
Nothing scientific, just an observation that opening early and perhaps dragging the arm a bit tends to promote tail on the fastball. Of course Pedro has the arm slot for getting that type of movement and also those long hyper flexible fingers, so who knows?
any comments on why Rogers, Moyer etc have such long careers. (I know it because they are successful)
But - did they pitch that way in college? Today with Radar guns all over the stadium it is velocity velocity etc.
How did they get where they are? Did they used to throw in the 90's?
But - did they pitch that way in college? Today with Radar guns all over the stadium it is velocity velocity etc.
How did they get where they are? Did they used to throw in the 90's?
quote:Originally posted by deemax:quote:Stuff like Rivera??? How, he didn't even throw a cutter
...refering to David Kopp, in which you compared his movement to Rivera.
If you look at Kopp's scouting video on MLB.com, you will clearly see horizontal movement, which means he's cutting the ball.
quote:Originally posted by cutter1:
How did they get where they are? Did they used to throw in the 90's?
Maddux came up throwing 93 but has lived in the high to mid 80s.
quote:Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Do you think that opening early is generally helpful in getting movement? Lateral or downward movement? I personally think that opening early is harmful to accuracy, as well as being potentially injury inducing, but movement is good....
You don't have to open up early to get movement.
Movement can come from things like...
- Pronation or supination of the forearm.
- Wrist action.
- Gripping the ball off-center.
- Differential finger pressure.
It's not as mysterious as people seem to think it is. That's why the Cardinals are able to teach most guys to throw a cutter.
quote:If you look at Kopp's scouting video on MLB.com, you will clearly see horizontal movement, which means he's cutting the ball.
Chris, Kopp's fastball doesnt cut. It has tail and the difference is night and day.
Example:
Peavys fastball has tremendous tail.
Mo Riveras fastball has tremendous cut.
quote:you will clearly see horizontal movement, which means he's cutting the ball.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Chris, Kopp's fastball doesnt cut. It has tail and the difference is night and day.
I use the term "cut" to describe any type of horizontal movement. You get horizontal movement by "cutting" the ball (e.g. by throwing the ball slightly off-center). I also prefer the terms arm-side movement and glove-side movement because they are more precise, and clearer, than terms like run, tail, or bore.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Example:
Peavys fastball has tremendous tail.
Mo Riveras fastball has tremendous cut.
I have seen Rivera move his ball either way.
Both arm-side and glove-side.
Please stop trying to make up your own terminology. A cutter cuts, a tailing fastball has armside run. People with baseball experience don't get them mixed up.
