pain guy
you continue to dig a deeper hole----your lack of knowledge is being exposed
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Please stop trying to make up your own terminology. A cutter cuts, a tailing fastball has armside run. People with baseball experience don't get them mixed up.
How dare you talk to a scout like that.
Cue the TPG throwing video...
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Please stop trying to make up your own terminology. A cutter cuts, a tailing fastball has armside run. People with baseball experience don't get them mixed up.
I'm not.
If you read the Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers, they describe a "Cut Fastball" as one that moves primarily in a horizontal plane. They include both arm-side and glove-side run as cut fastballs.
There is no separate entry for a Tailing Fastball. According to them, tailing is just one possible action of a cut fastball.
Also, Cardinals pitchers are routinely taught to throw a cut fastball (or cutter). There is no discussion of their being taught to throw a tailing fastball.
What is the baseball background for neyer/james?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
What is the baseball background for neyer/james?
Is that a serious question?
tpg
Really...I would say that you are.
wikipedia cut fastball
wikipedia two seam (tailingfastball)
tpg
Not for one second do I believe the Cardinals orginization is not showing thier pitchers a two seamer with the hope of getting the ball to tail... No one in the world of baseball will buy this for one second.
tpg
with you maybe....
For the record...
left/right
fade/draw
up/down
cut/tail
quote:I'm not.
Really...I would say that you are.
wikipedia cut fastball
wikipedia two seam (tailingfastball)
tpg
quote:Also, Cardinals pitchers are routinely taught to throw a cut fastball (or cutter). There is no discussion of their being taught to throw a tailing fastball.
Not for one second do I believe the Cardinals orginization is not showing thier pitchers a two seamer with the hope of getting the ball to tail... No one in the world of baseball will buy this for one second.
tpg
quote:There is no discussion of their being taught to throw a tailing fastball.
with you maybe....
For the record...
left/right
fade/draw
up/down
cut/tail
The reason a tailing fastball is NOT considered a cut fastball is that it can be thrown with the fingers fully behind the ball. Almost all pitchers throwing 3/4 down to sidearm will tend to get tail on a 4 seam fastball simply because of their arm slot. If they go to a 2 seamer they will typically also get a bit more sink on the pitch. They aren't cutting the ball one bit. Also a pitcher throwing from those arm slots will tend to get sink from turning it over and not having the fingers behind the ball at release rather than more armside run.
A pitcher throwing overhand could possibly cut the ball either way but that's rare and pitchers don't consider a ball with armside run a cutter even in the cases where the pitcher is turning it over and not staying behind the ball to get the armside run.
It is rare for a pitcher to be taught to throw a tailing fastball because it tends to come naturally and they already do it by the time they get to pro ball or it wouldn't be good for them to try to go that way. Anybody think they need to teach Frankie Rodriguez how to get tail on his fastball? BTW, never realized how much he steps across his body until I saw him playing catch before yesterday's game.
A pitcher throwing overhand could possibly cut the ball either way but that's rare and pitchers don't consider a ball with armside run a cutter even in the cases where the pitcher is turning it over and not staying behind the ball to get the armside run.
It is rare for a pitcher to be taught to throw a tailing fastball because it tends to come naturally and they already do it by the time they get to pro ball or it wouldn't be good for them to try to go that way. Anybody think they need to teach Frankie Rodriguez how to get tail on his fastball? BTW, never realized how much he steps across his body until I saw him playing catch before yesterday's game.
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
I'm not.
If you read the Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers, they describe a "Cut Fastball" as one that moves primarily in a horizontal plane. They include both arm-side and glove-side run as cut fastballs.
There is no separate entry for a Tailing Fastball. According to them, tailing is just one possible action of a cut fastball.
Also, Cardinals pitchers are routinely taught to throw a cut fastball (or cutter). There is no discussion of their being taught to throw a tailing fastball.
Armside run has nothing to do with "cutting" the ball. This is basic knowledge which you desperately lack. You shouldn't have any interaction with pitchers above Little League. Seriously...
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
BTW, never realized how much he steps across his body until I saw him playing catch before yesterday's game.
I saw F-Rod pitch and thought the same thing.
I have noticed this quite a bit lately from many pitchers.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
tpgquote:I'm not.
Really...I would say that you are.
wikipedia cut fastball
wikipedia two seam (tailingfastball)
You're telling me that you trust Wikipedia more than Rob Neyer and Bill James?
O'leary
No I am not kidding --who are they other than authors?
No I am not kidding --who are they other than authors?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
No I am not kidding --who are they other than authors?
Rob Neyer writes for ESPN.com and is one of the most respected baseball guys.
Bill James is the founder of the SABRmetrics and Moneyball school of thought. He works for the Red Sox and helped them win the WS in 2004.
painguy
Just because they work for ESPN and believe in moneyball does not make them "experts"--- trust me I worked in the entertainment field, and yes ESPN is entertainment, and it is not always the best/most talented who gets recognition
Interstingly enough a quick review of Red Sox employees on their MLB site does not show a James as an employee
As for the SABRmetrics(at homeplate)--a google visit to the site shows no updates since 2006 and what is there is all statistical
O'Leary I would recommend that you come out of the THINK TANK and visit the real world!!!!
Just because they work for ESPN and believe in moneyball does not make them "experts"--- trust me I worked in the entertainment field, and yes ESPN is entertainment, and it is not always the best/most talented who gets recognition
Interstingly enough a quick review of Red Sox employees on their MLB site does not show a James as an employee
As for the SABRmetrics(at homeplate)--a google visit to the site shows no updates since 2006 and what is there is all statistical
O'Leary I would recommend that you come out of the THINK TANK and visit the real world!!!!
quote:You're telling me that you trust Wikipedia more than Rob Neyer and Bill James?
Yes.
I also trust my personal background with baseball as to what tail and cut are...
redbird5,
Pretty common in breaking ball pitchers. I worked off my fastball but threw a fair amount of sliders and had a big breaking 12 to 6 when I needed it. I always thought I threw like Tom Seaver and then at 16 saw movie footage of myself pitching and I threw like Don Sutton (other than minor details like velocity
) with the short stride that tends to help throwing downhill and to this day I tend to step across my body a bit. A short stride and stepping across the body seem to be effective for breaking ball pitchers, although it certainly isn't something that has to be done by any means.
Pretty common in breaking ball pitchers. I worked off my fastball but threw a fair amount of sliders and had a big breaking 12 to 6 when I needed it. I always thought I threw like Tom Seaver and then at 16 saw movie footage of myself pitching and I threw like Don Sutton (other than minor details like velocity
) with the short stride that tends to help throwing downhill and to this day I tend to step across my body a bit. A short stride and stepping across the body seem to be effective for breaking ball pitchers, although it certainly isn't something that has to be done by any means.
