Moc1:
Great post.
Moc,
Not sure if anyone said coaches don't have their own set of rules (that usually coincide with their school rules) regarding drinking, drugs, etc. And I agree, coaches are not there to babysit just as your son's professors are not there to babysit either. Certain behavior as a student athlete, a representative of the schools atheletic department, is EXPECTED or you wouldn't be there. But kids are kids and things happen. Our boys are very lucky in the sense that they DO have coaches that can speak to them about expectations, and set parameters, most college students do not.
Just not sure that most coaches would cut the strings if caught drinking or using tobacco during the season.
JMO.
JMO
Not sure if anyone said coaches don't have their own set of rules (that usually coincide with their school rules) regarding drinking, drugs, etc. And I agree, coaches are not there to babysit just as your son's professors are not there to babysit either. Certain behavior as a student athlete, a representative of the schools atheletic department, is EXPECTED or you wouldn't be there. But kids are kids and things happen. Our boys are very lucky in the sense that they DO have coaches that can speak to them about expectations, and set parameters, most college students do not.
Just not sure that most coaches would cut the strings if caught drinking or using tobacco during the season.
JMO.
JMO
TPM-NOT sure where you and Bee came up with this notion of "babysitting" by college coaches. Certainly not from me. Never said it and never implied it. Did you call it babysitting when you were raising your son through high school? Did you have no rules and regulations during those years? I have yet to bring up my kids in this thread but since you have decided to-"your son's professors are not there to babysit either"--please tell us how many of YOUR son's professors sat in your living room and offered your son a scholarship? offered to get him to the next level? offered to help him improve
his math skills? offered to get him some place to study during the summer(Cape Cod League). Took him to Omaha-all expenses paid, just so he could experience the thrill of the Calculus World Series. Apples and oranges. My kids' professors couldn't care less how they perform in the classroom but the coaches certainly have a vested interest.
Their livleyhood depends on it. Professors get paid regardless of their "won/loss record"-they do not recruit students.
Look, you and Bee have done a wonderful job raising your sons and so have a lot of other
websters but to believe every player has had the same upbringing and is on the same wavelength as yours is just not the case. Lots of coaches understand this and therefore implement rules for all to follow and hopefully disipline fairly and evenly. Maybe some
coaches do not feel the need and as I stated before-fine. I disagree, and it's a matter
of opinion.
BTW-wouldn't "supervise" be a better word than "babysit". Just my opinion.
his math skills? offered to get him some place to study during the summer(Cape Cod League). Took him to Omaha-all expenses paid, just so he could experience the thrill of the Calculus World Series. Apples and oranges. My kids' professors couldn't care less how they perform in the classroom but the coaches certainly have a vested interest.
Their livleyhood depends on it. Professors get paid regardless of their "won/loss record"-they do not recruit students.Look, you and Bee have done a wonderful job raising your sons and so have a lot of other
websters but to believe every player has had the same upbringing and is on the same wavelength as yours is just not the case. Lots of coaches understand this and therefore implement rules for all to follow and hopefully disipline fairly and evenly. Maybe some
coaches do not feel the need and as I stated before-fine. I disagree, and it's a matter
of opinion.
BTW-wouldn't "supervise" be a better word than "babysit". Just my opinion.
I think that basically we all agree upon the same thing. Rules do need to be in place. We teach our kids to do the right thing, make the right choices. Kids are kids, they mess up sometimes, but smart college coaches and (as with smart parents) know that and set rules accordingly. I am not sure my son would be in the place where he is if it wasn't for stern caring coaches who have dealt with hundrds of 17-23 year old males who treat their players with respect as well as age appropriate and demand that in return.
I only object to Coach2709's approach, (which is how we got to this point in case you missed it), he believes that players caught drinking or with tobacco during season should be punished harshly, go back and read his posts.
I don't care where one goes to school, that is not what college coaches, in general do (again this is how and why we got to this point in discussion).
I only object to Coach2709's approach, (which is how we got to this point in case you missed it), he believes that players caught drinking or with tobacco during season should be punished harshly, go back and read his posts.
I don't care where one goes to school, that is not what college coaches, in general do (again this is how and why we got to this point in discussion).
Haven't been near a computer the last couple of days but just got caught up on the latest.
First let me say in previous posts that I was wrong in some of my information and owe Bee a very small apology for calling him an idiot because I did post where I was possibly being employed. Granted it was like two weeks (not sure of the time so if it's wrong I apologize) and in another forum. So I am glad Bee that you do happen to remember pretty much everything I post or have the time to research everything said in here.
TPM - I can appreciate your opposition on my stance and I will let you know (and Moc1) that when/if I am in a position to run my own program I will check with other coaches to see what they do for this stuff. You have got me to be more open minded.
Moc1 I know you weren't out to "rescue" me but I believe you did a great job of presenting some of my argument better than I did. I thought you did a very good job of bringing up how Bee changes everything to suit his argument. There were several things he tried to "quote" that I said that was completely off base. I am glad you were able to call him out on that. Prime example is when TPM said she objected to my stance on alcohol and tobacco. I NEVER mentioned tobacco in any shape form or fashion (unless I mentioned it in passing 5 years ago in the hitting forum when I might have said a dip can in your back pocket will help you get better balance - Bee I am sure you can help by remembering or looking that up) but he brought it up later and that is where you got that TPM.
Anyway - MOST of the posters here have only dealt with a small number of schools so the exposure to how other teams do things is very limited. It's one of those things that you are probably not going to convince one side to the other side's thinking. To each their own.
First let me say in previous posts that I was wrong in some of my information and owe Bee a very small apology for calling him an idiot because I did post where I was possibly being employed. Granted it was like two weeks (not sure of the time so if it's wrong I apologize) and in another forum. So I am glad Bee that you do happen to remember pretty much everything I post or have the time to research everything said in here.
TPM - I can appreciate your opposition on my stance and I will let you know (and Moc1) that when/if I am in a position to run my own program I will check with other coaches to see what they do for this stuff. You have got me to be more open minded.
Moc1 I know you weren't out to "rescue" me but I believe you did a great job of presenting some of my argument better than I did. I thought you did a very good job of bringing up how Bee changes everything to suit his argument. There were several things he tried to "quote" that I said that was completely off base. I am glad you were able to call him out on that. Prime example is when TPM said she objected to my stance on alcohol and tobacco. I NEVER mentioned tobacco in any shape form or fashion (unless I mentioned it in passing 5 years ago in the hitting forum when I might have said a dip can in your back pocket will help you get better balance - Bee I am sure you can help by remembering or looking that up) but he brought it up later and that is where you got that TPM.
Anyway - MOST of the posters here have only dealt with a small number of schools so the exposure to how other teams do things is very limited. It's one of those things that you are probably not going to convince one side to the other side's thinking. To each their own.
Coach2709,
I may be missing something but you made some statements regarding what went down at the school you might be employed at followed by your harsh views of players drinking during season. I was especially concerned with your view of players over 21.
As I told Moc1, this is what brought us to post our views. Your prior views seemed to forget that players are kids and kids mess up. Your stance was, my way or the highway. We were trying to make a point that it isn't always like that, schools have rules for the general population and most college coaches abide by those rules with some of their own and before you make up your mind HOW it should be you needed to be a bit more open minded. I may be mssing something, did you change anything along the way?
I NEVER stated that drinking during the season was ok or should be allowed. I just stated that before you make rules that kids can't keep, you understand truely what a coaches role is and how most handle situations when they arise. They usually don't kick the kids off of the team.
Maybe that is why Moc got confused, you did change some things didn't you?
I am not sure how all schools handle things, but I do know one thing, we are parents of players, former players, current players, big schools, little schools, public and private schools. We have learned alot from them.
You might learn more from parents on this site more than you can imagine.
I may be missing something but you made some statements regarding what went down at the school you might be employed at followed by your harsh views of players drinking during season. I was especially concerned with your view of players over 21.
As I told Moc1, this is what brought us to post our views. Your prior views seemed to forget that players are kids and kids mess up. Your stance was, my way or the highway. We were trying to make a point that it isn't always like that, schools have rules for the general population and most college coaches abide by those rules with some of their own and before you make up your mind HOW it should be you needed to be a bit more open minded. I may be mssing something, did you change anything along the way?I NEVER stated that drinking during the season was ok or should be allowed. I just stated that before you make rules that kids can't keep, you understand truely what a coaches role is and how most handle situations when they arise. They usually don't kick the kids off of the team.
Maybe that is why Moc got confused, you did change some things didn't you?
I am not sure how all schools handle things, but I do know one thing, we are parents of players, former players, current players, big schools, little schools, public and private schools. We have learned alot from them.
You might learn more from parents on this site more than you can imagine.
lol, as you pointed out I added "silly" & fixed typos ... added nifong as it came across the news crawl - no conspiracy therequote:by moc1: BEE, I find it amusing that you've gone back and changed virtually every one of your posts
gee, maybe you saw what ya wanted to see
my stance has been -
"a college coach has no business meddling in the off-campus legal activities of his players" - and I clearly said our coaches implimented university rules & policies
you've once again mis-quoted me and changed the discussion, which for the lst 3 pages has been coach managing off-campus legal activitiesquote:by moc: To me it's rather naive on your part to believe that once a player leaves home he is "ready" to take on the world and needs no limits imposed on him by a college coach
it would seem to implied by endorsing a coach's 24-7 off-campus lifestyle management of his 21+ yr old players.quote:by moc: NOT sure where you and Bee came up with this notion of "babysitting" by college coaches. Certainly not from me. Never said it and never implied it
a classic red herring?? (def: a distractor that draws attention away from the real issue)quote:by moc: please tell us how many of YOUR son's professors sat in your living room and offered your son a scholarship? offered to get him to the next level? offered to help him improve
anyway, they did it by proxy, ie: the head of the department did it in her office
added 07:13 GMT
bummer ... students who are essentially their customers, are being cheatedquote:by moc: My kids' professors couldn't care less how they perform in the classroom
tobacco was likely mentioned because it's site use is banned by ncaa
I believe FSU's Martin's policy is to confiscate it and stow it safely in his cheek
happy father's day to all
ps- I reserve the right to correct
I have a feeling there's enough information on this thread for most of the readers to get something out of this and decide for themselves now what kind of program they would hope for their sons to be a part of. One size does not fit all-and there are ALL sizes out there. Don't believe everything you read.
I have been told that it's the captain or whomever the coaching staff appoints that day (day of the official visit) to take out this recruit and "make sure he's taken care of" wink, wink, nod, nod. So don't blame the captain or other players whose job it is to "get it done", that is, get that darn recruit to like us and give him a good time while here. They usually feel out the player first to see what his "makeup" is and then they'll decide whether or not to introduce alcohol. If alcohol is introduced, there is a "hush-hush" that surrounds the activities. It's an unwritten rule but let's face it this goes on everywhere especially in D1 hard-core baseball institutions.
New to the thread, but have to comment.
I know that my son had to sign a "Prospective Student Athlete declaration" which was an A-M bulletted declaration encompasing a wide range of declarations that "I did not do this, my family was not give this, I was not entertained outside a 30 mile range of the campus.....etc."
There were 3 other lines pertinent to this thread
"I have not participated in.....
*Consumption of alcohol and/or illegal drugs
*Adult entertainment (including entertainment clubs and hiring of escort/exotic dancers
*Entered drinking establishments if you or the prospect are under the age of 21.
Each prospect was required to sign and date this.
We as parents of a D-1 player in California, expect that when we tour a campus, meet coaches and team memebers that they are in compliance with the NCAA D-l recruiting rules and regulations. These coaches are to be the next guiding influence for our son over the next 3-4 years. I am interested in the role they will play, and yes they play a signifigant role. We actually chose the school we did, not because of the size/publicity of the program, but whom we were sending our son to be educated in the classroom and on the field. Too many people are hung up on the status...Find the place that your son will succeed and be developed not only as a player, but as a person. Our son was academically able to go just about anywhere - grades and test scores - ultimately he chose a school that was not as high profile, but where he felt everything fit. This is all such a personal decision, my advice, do not get caught up in the hype - take the time to find the best place for your player academically and athletically. It does no good for a player to a big program and sit, ball players need to play. With the new transfer rules in place this becomes even more important - find the best fit...just my two cents.
I know that my son had to sign a "Prospective Student Athlete declaration" which was an A-M bulletted declaration encompasing a wide range of declarations that "I did not do this, my family was not give this, I was not entertained outside a 30 mile range of the campus.....etc."
There were 3 other lines pertinent to this thread
"I have not participated in.....
*Consumption of alcohol and/or illegal drugs
*Adult entertainment (including entertainment clubs and hiring of escort/exotic dancers
*Entered drinking establishments if you or the prospect are under the age of 21.
Each prospect was required to sign and date this.
We as parents of a D-1 player in California, expect that when we tour a campus, meet coaches and team memebers that they are in compliance with the NCAA D-l recruiting rules and regulations. These coaches are to be the next guiding influence for our son over the next 3-4 years. I am interested in the role they will play, and yes they play a signifigant role. We actually chose the school we did, not because of the size/publicity of the program, but whom we were sending our son to be educated in the classroom and on the field. Too many people are hung up on the status...Find the place that your son will succeed and be developed not only as a player, but as a person. Our son was academically able to go just about anywhere - grades and test scores - ultimately he chose a school that was not as high profile, but where he felt everything fit. This is all such a personal decision, my advice, do not get caught up in the hype - take the time to find the best place for your player academically and athletically. It does no good for a player to a big program and sit, ball players need to play. With the new transfer rules in place this becomes even more important - find the best fit...just my two cents.
iheartbb ...
First off ... welcome aboard.
Secondly ... I like what you stated, how you stated it, and the sincerity behind it. I agree 100% ... (now doesn't that just make your day?) It feels like your son did much the same as ours and it was a wonderful experience in every way. Thanks for sharing.
First off ... welcome aboard.
Secondly ... I like what you stated, how you stated it, and the sincerity behind it. I agree 100% ... (now doesn't that just make your day?) It feels like your son did much the same as ours and it was a wonderful experience in every way. Thanks for sharing.
My son had a similar situation on a visit. He turned down the offer of a party. Turned out to be a good one because it was a "test" by the coaching staff. Just something to think about.
= Edited by moderator. John, since this is a Golden Thread, we'd like to stick with the helpful and informative posts. Thanks =
quote:Turned out to be a good one because it was a "test" by the coaching staff. Just something to think about.
If the coacung staff was using his own players to "test" the recruit, then that coach should be fired for incompetance. Suppose a player was just trying to fit in and break the ice to get familiar with potential new teammates and wasn't an irresponsible drinker or a crazy party animal to start with. Sure the easy and safe way is to say no and all but to try and lure a recruit into a trap is lame, and only a spineless sneaky coach would pull this kind of nonsense.
wow...good stuff as we begin our road into recuriting...the character of a person, especially a young man on the path to play college baseball or anything else for that matter, doesn't imply the person made a decision to go along...agree with Zombywoof 100%!!!
Luring a recruit into a trap means you had serious doubts about that recruit to begin with, good coaches don't do that, good coaches don't even ask those questions, what they want to know is if the team felt if he did or didn't fit in. Now I am not saying that a recruit passing out from going overboard will look good in anyone's eyes, it is more about how you can handle yourself with the temptations of college, and coaches know that can be a challenge in itself.
If passing up alcohol was the deal breaker, I doubt mine would have gone where he did.
If passing up alcohol was the deal breaker, I doubt mine would have gone where he did.
I wouldn't say it's that uncommon. Players want to show them a good time and what the college life is like, so obviously drinking will be involved a lot of the time. From my experience there is no pressure put on the recruits to drink but they will be around it and more than welcome to drink if they wanted
It's not always a case of drinking to show the recruit a good time -- it could very well have been what the older players would have done anyway as part of their routine.
I'm not sure about other high schools but I know a large protion of the kids at our school have gone out to parties and they weren't drinking juice boxes. No it's not right for it to be happening on visits but do you want the school to be lying to you? or would you rather have them show you how it's going to be?
I went on 3 official visits and drank on all 3 of them. I thought it would help me fit in with the guys and didn't think it was a big deal but there were recruits who came once I was at school that didn't drink and it was not a big deal.
I just wrote a book on my college baseball experience called "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" that discusses recruiting trips. It was never said by a coach, but it was just assumed that we were going to show our recruit a "good time". We considered it a successful night if the recruit showed up to his meeting the next morning with the coaches still drunk! (One guy actually signed the next morning after his visit, so I assume we showed him a good time).
Again, there were guys who didn't want to drink, but for those who did we had an incentive to show them a good time... aka we wanted the best players to come to our program.
[B]You can read all about my story in the book if you are interested. Please visit www.GoingwiththePitch.com
I just wrote a book on my college baseball experience called "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" that discusses recruiting trips. It was never said by a coach, but it was just assumed that we were going to show our recruit a "good time". We considered it a successful night if the recruit showed up to his meeting the next morning with the coaches still drunk! (One guy actually signed the next morning after his visit, so I assume we showed him a good time).
Again, there were guys who didn't want to drink, but for those who did we had an incentive to show them a good time... aka we wanted the best players to come to our program.
[B]You can read all about my story in the book if you are interested. Please visit www.GoingwiththePitch.com