Does anyone have a son or knows someone who played at any of the following schools?
Alabama A&M
Coppin State
Fairleigh Dickinson
Maryland Eastern Shore
Mississippi Valley State
Mount Saint Mary's
Prairie View A&M
Saint Peter's
How was the experience playing there?
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Interesting list. Five public HBCUs plus 3 small private schools. You will find them all at the bottom of any D1 ranking list most years. I think you'll find what you would expect from schools that lose a lot... higher than average turnover.
I've known kids at UMES and Delaware State (which would fit your list). All white kids attending HBCUs. At both schools the draw is an affordable education and honestly, just being able to say that they play D1 baseball. Very high turnover with the ones I've known. I think the problems were mostly the losing and/or lack of playing time, more so than cultural. Also, just a bad fit academically because they didn't give that much thought going in.
But I've also known a couple who graduated. Played baseball (the main draw), got their degree, and didn't accumulate huge debt.
I didn't even know some were HBCUs. I just picked random D1s that ranked really poorly over the last few years.
Coppin State was a brutally bad joke for years (sub 200 BA, 10+ ERA). They had trouble scheduling non conference opponents. No one wanted to waste their time. There were years they had trouble fielding a roster of more than fourteen or fifteen players.
A new coach came in a few years ago. Coppin is now competitive in their conference. Teams are willing to play them in non conference games.
@RJM posted:Coppin State was a brutally bad joke for years (sub 200 BA, 10+ ERA). They had trouble scheduling non conference opponents. No one wanted to waste their time. There were years they had trouble fielding a roster of more than fourteen or fifteen players.
A new coach came in a few years ago. Coppin is now competitive in their conference. Teams are willing to play them in non conference games.
But it was D1! :-)
@Francis7 posted:But it was D1! :-)
There was a kid here years ago who wanted to play D1 regardless of the competency level of the program. Personally, I believe this is an absurd perspective. Getting hammered every game sucks. I told him if he doesn’t mind losing 15-1 most games he can make the Coppin roster just by showing up. The Coppin program has improved immensely. But the conference is still one of the lowest rated D1’s.
My kid started playing travel at 8u.
The years from 11u to 14u were not filled with winning teams. Great instruction but not powerhouse teams. More losing than winning.
15u and 16u were much better in terms of being on teams that could compete. It's a world of difference...playing where you know you are going to lose versus knowing that you can compete most of the time and win often.
Nothing worse than going into a game where losing by less than 5 is a victory of sorts. It's a terrible experience to be like that in most of your games.
Why anyone would want to do that in the last 4 years they will be playing baseball is beyond me.
Francis, what is it, exactly, that you want to know? Trying to figure out why on earth you would want to pull a list of some of the worst...
I think the idea that you should blindly go to the most competitive school is just as bad as the idea that you should go to any D1.
I'd rather get spanked every game and be a daily starter than be competitive and have no role other than to cheerlead and carry equipment. Years when I sat the bench when I was one of the younger guys on the teams (6th grade on the middle school team, soph year on varsity) I was barely invested. The outcome mattered less to me. When I was starting and playing, even on bad teams, I never wanted it to end.
Schools like the ones listed catch a lot of slack on here about not being competitive. Maybe, but some would rather lose to Kansas St, Bryant, Seton Hall, Rhode Island, UConn like FDU than play at an average D2/D3 and win 30 games against schools you've never heard of. For some, playing the best competition is part of why they want to go D1, not necessarily because of the clout. Worrying about how much fun you're going to have with baseball is the equivalent of only choosing a school for the party scene. Sure you may have the best time ever, but it means nothing once you finish.
I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but I'm sensing a lot of "D1=bad" around here. I really don't think it's the case and once I get past schools that may have an impact on advancing my baseball career, I'm putting factors like education, affordability, and geography before I'm considering the winning percentage of the program. I have a 2022 who wants to play D1 baseball. If he doesn't get the offers he wants, he will try to walk on somewhere. It's a personal preference.
When I first saw the OP's title, I thought he was listing 8 schools eliminating their baseball program (like Furman).
@cabbagedad posted:Francis, what is it, exactly, that you want to know? Trying to figure out why on earth you would want to pull a list of some of the worst...
He doesn't want to know anything. He enjoys this. Some people like playing golf, some like jogging. He gets off on the endorphins released when people reply to his post. So he looks for a reason to post.
@Francis7 posted:Why anyone would want to do that in the last 4 years they will be playing baseball is beyond me.
I'll bite. Because they love baseball.
@cabbagedad posted:Francis, what is it, exactly, that you want to know? Trying to figure out why on earth you would want to pull a list of some of the worst...
Just wondering why someone would elect to play with that particular type of program as opposed to another viable option that's more competitive at a non-D1 institution?
@SomeBaseballDad posted:He doesn't want to know anything. He enjoys this. Some people like playing golf, some like jogging. He gets off on the endorphins released when people reply to his post. So he looks for a reason to post.
I get nothing when someone replies like this...so, there goes that theory.
@PABaseball posted:I think the idea that you should blindly go to the most competitive school is just as bad as the idea that you should go to any D1.
I'd rather get spanked every game and be a daily starter than be competitive and have no role other than to cheerlead and carry equipment. Years when I sat the bench when I was one of the younger guys on the teams (6th grade on the middle school team, soph year on varsity) I was barely invested. The outcome mattered less to me. When I was starting and playing, even on bad teams, I never wanted it to end.
Schools like the ones listed catch a lot of slack on here about not being competitive. Maybe, but some would rather lose to Kansas St, Bryant, Seton Hall, Rhode Island, UConn like FDU than play at an average D2/D3 and win 30 games against schools you've never heard of. For some, playing the best competition is part of why they want to go D1, not necessarily because of the clout. Worrying about how much fun you're going to have with baseball is the equivalent of only choosing a school for the party scene. Sure you may have the best time ever, but it means nothing once you finish.
I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but I'm sensing a lot of "D1=bad" around here. I really don't think it's the case and once I get past schools that may have an impact on advancing my baseball career, I'm putting factors like education, affordability, and geography before I'm considering the winning percentage of the program. I have a 2022 who wants to play D1 baseball. If he doesn't get the offers he wants, he will try to walk on somewhere. It's a personal preference.
At some level, it's understandable. While it's not as much fun playing for the Pirates as much as the Dodgers, it's still the big leagues. But, that said, are you playing because you want PAs and IP only? Or, is winning and being part of a winning team more important than your individual playing time?
@Francis7 posted:At some level, it's understandable. While it's not as much fun playing for the Pirates as much as the Dodgers, it's still the big leagues. But, that said, are you playing because you want PAs and IP only? Or, is winning and being part of a winning team more important than your individual playing time?
Are you really part of a winning team if you don't contribute to it? I doubt the bullpen catcher and the starting shortstop feel the same way about wins and losses
@Francis7 posted:I get nothing when someone replies like this...so, there goes that theory.
OK.
At some level, it's understandable. While it's not as much fun playing for the Pirates as much as the Dodgers, it's still the big leagues. But, that said, are you playing because you want PAs and IP only? Or, is winning and being part of a winning team more important than your individual playing time?
So this is something that keeps you up at night? It relates to your kid? Or it's just something to post about. Don't be ashamed. It's not any worse than the endless "those parents" post this forum has been taken over by.
@PABaseball posted:Are you really part of a winning team if you don't contribute to it? I doubt the bullpen catcher and the starting shortstop feel the same way about wins and losses
At a younger level, sitting the bench is terrible and it will drive a kid out of the game - even at the HS level for some.
At the college level? I would think that the kid who only had 40 PA would enjoy wearing that championship ring as much as the kid who started 40 games.
Really at that level, isn't it about team first? As a player, your responsibility is to be so good that it forces them to play you, or, be so good that it forces the other players at your position to be even better than you in order to start over you. Either way, it benefits the team.
Maybe people don't think this way and that is why the transfer portal is full? It's really not helping anyone. I would assume coaches prefer players who are team first and "me" second.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:I'll bite. Because they love baseball.
My son played with this exceptional 2021 player. RHP / SS Athletic type. Total gamer, clutch player and star of every team he played on (deservedly). He moved down to NC. Got his FB up to 88 MPH and had to get Tommy John. He had a major setback last summer in his rehab. He loves baseball but all interest dried up. He committed to NCCU which I did not know was an HBCU. They play in the MEAC with Coppin State. The kid just wants to play D1 ball. I don't know how this story will play out but as somebaseballdad points out, some just love baseball. He took what he could get and I hope he makes the most of his opportunity.
Here are the HBCU Conferences
2020 Team Roster Turnover Rate
SWAC
MEAC
Here is an example of Team Roster Turnover for Alabama A&M
This is 2020 roster insights (compares to 2019)
Outgoing with potential reason for leaving
Outgoing by Position
Incoming
Incoming by Position
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:My son played with this exceptional 2021 player. RHP / SS Athletic type. Total gamer, clutch player and star of every team he played on (deservedly). He moved down to NC. Got his FB up to 88 MPH and had to get Tommy John. He had a major setback last summer in his rehab. He loves baseball but all interest dried up. He committed to NCCU which I did not know was an HBCU. They play in the MEAC with Coppin State. The kid just wants to play D1 ball. I don't know how this story will play out but as somebaseballdad points out, some just love baseball. He took what he could get and I hope he makes the most of his opportunity.
If your son is of another racial background, he will more than benefit from learning more about Black American history vs HIS STORY. In terms of empathy for others, I'm assuming already has that trait (its a baseball thing), but he will be able to observe life through a broader prospective.
@Francis7 posted:Just wondering why someone would elect to play with that particular type of program as opposed to another viable option that's more competitive at a non-D1 institution?
Well, first, of course, is they may be choosing the school for other reasons - academic, proximity to home, cost, friends attending, etc. I think it is rare that a student/athlete chooses a school for any one reason.
Maybe it is the only school they are getting recruiting attention from and playing some college ball is more appealing than not playing. Maybe there is the D1 connotation. There is some dialog here about non-competitive D1 vs competitive "other level". I get both sides but at some point, when a program is particularly non-competitive (which applies to some of these schools), the balance really shifts. Most programs that are consistently non-competitive have some elements of lack of pride, drive, satisfaction, excitement, accomplishment, motivation and, well, competitive spirit. So, that has to really be figured in when weighing the "pro's" that you may have the opportunity to occasionally play against a school with a name that your friends would recognize.
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:If your son is of another racial background, he will more than benefit from learning more about Black American history vs HIS STORY. In terms of empathy for others, I'm assuming already has that trait (its a baseball thing), but he will be able to observe life through a broader prospective.
It's not my son, it's a friend and player from many of his travel teams. He is white and he will certainly benefit. Diversity of thought, opinions, backgrounds is very important, as long a free speech and thought are allowed. My son is at a college that is 21% international and 49% domestic minority and heavy in group projects. It's a great experience that will help him upon graduation.
My daughter was a fourth outfielder and sometimes starter for four years for a major conference team. She appeared in about 40 of 60 games per season. There were a lot of other D1’s or lower she could have started. She enjoyed the everyday camaraderie of the team at practice, games and workouts. They won more than they lost and made the tournament twice. Academically it was one of the top schools in her chosen (specialty) major. This is the #1 reason she never considered leaving.
@RJM posted:My daughter was a fourth outfielder and sometimes starter for four years. She appeared in about 40 of 60 games per season. There were a lot of other D1’s or lower she could have started. She enjoyed the everyday camaraderie of the team at practice, games and workouts. They won more than they lost and made the tournament twice. Academically it was one of the top schools in her chosen (specialty) major. This is the #1 reason she never considered leaving.
Many STEM recipients come from NC AT&T. Friend from AT&T did a stint with the Obama Administration
Maybe they want to go to that college, and they like playing baseball so why not play? Maybe they like the cameraderie and discipline of being on a team. Maybe they got non-athletic scholarships that made it a great choice. Why assume that everyone puts baseball first when making a college choice? (I mean, I know that people on here do, but we're not everyone).
My older son was once on a rec basketball team that lost most of their games. He is very competitive, so I was surprised that he loved the practices, it was because the coaches ran great practices and they had fun. He didn't love the games.
@Francis7 posted:At a younger level, sitting the bench is terrible and it will drive a kid out of the game - even at the HS level for some.
At the college level? I would think that the kid who only had 40 PA would enjoy wearing that championship ring as much as the kid who started 40 games...
40 plate appearances is a 10/11 man. That's a guy who gets some starts, hits against lefties, pinch hits, defensive sub, etc. There is a big difference between getting time and being a contributor than there is getting 6 ABs and adding nothing other than some laughs.
I'm not saying you can't have fun and enjoy your time but being present is not the same as being involved.
Really at that level, isn't it about team first? As a player, your responsibility is to be so good that it forces them to play you, or, be so good that it forces the other players at your position to be even better than you in order to start over you. Either way, it benefits the team.
Maybe it is and I'm just selfish. But there is going to be a kid competing with your son for time. Are you going to root for that kid every time he comes up to the plate or are you going to secretly wish he doesn't take advantage of his opportunities?
Maybe people don't think this way and that is why the transfer portal is full? It's really not helping anyone. I would assume coaches prefer players who are team first and "me" second.
Who is it not helping? At the end of the day you have to look out for yourself. Coaches can talk about team players and loyalty all they want, but the truth of the matter is that if a kid is cool with sitting the bench and handing out high fives for four years it just shows he probably never had the attitude necessary to play at the next level.
There is a difference between waiting your turn and waiting in the back of the line while people cut you.
Maybe I am alone on this? On a youth roster with 12 or 13 kids, yes, you don't want to be the kid who never plays and you should look for another team. But, on a school roster with 18 to 35 kids, I fully realize that some are going to play and some are going to almost never play. It's up to the player to earn his playing time. But, I would never root for another player to fail to help my kid's chances at playing.
True story: On our HS team my son leaped over an upper classmen to take a starting position on varsity. And, to be candid, the other kid didn't help his chances with his play. Someone once asked me about it and I sincerely told them that I wished that the other kid had batted .600 with 15 homers - because that would only help the team win. And, if my son was still good enough to play, they would find spots for both of them. There's 9 batting slots in the lineup.
Again, school ball is different. You have to root for the team. It shouldn't be a "me" game. But, maybe I just have an old timer approach on it?
That being said - yes, as a parent, root for your kid and hope that he earns playing time and has success and fun. But, don't root or hope for a teammate to fail to help his chances at playing time. I can't be that guy.
@Francis7 posted:Maybe I am alone on this? On a youth roster with 12 or 13 kids, yes, you don't want to be the kid who never plays and you should look for another team. But, on a school roster with 18 to 35 kids, I fully realize that some are going to play and some are going to almost never play. It's up to the player to earn his playing time. But, I would never root for another player to fail to help my kid's chances at playing.
True story: On our HS team my son leaped over an upper classmen to take a starting position on varsity. And, to be candid, the other kid didn't help his chances with his play. Someone once asked me about it and I sincerely told them that I wished that the other kid had batted .600 with 15 homers - because that would only help the team win. And, if my son was still good enough to play, they would find spots for both of them. There's 9 batting slots in the lineup.
Again, school ball is different. You have to root for the team. It shouldn't be a "me" game. But, maybe I just have an old timer approach on it?
That being said - yes, as a parent, root for your kid and hope that he earns playing time and has success and fun. But, don't root or hope for a teammate to fail to help his chances at playing time. I can't be that guy.
Agreed. School ball is different.
School ball is different but I know if my guys weren’t legitimately in the mix for playing time, they wouldn’t want to stay on the team for long.
In fact, they’re at the schools they’re at as much for non-baseball reasons as they’re there for baseball reasons.
Of course, that’s coming from a D3 parent.
As a parent you may not be rooting for kids in front of your son to fail. But you are looking for opportunities for your son to get his shot. When another kid is failing you will notice there’s your kid’s opportunity. You may find that kid’s parents aren’t your buddy when your kid takes his position. They’re not rooting for your son to take away their son’s position. At the D1 level every kid on the bench knows there’s some place he could be playing whether it’s a lower level D1 or a level below. It’s why the transfer rate in D1 is so high.
At a NESCAC years ago I chatted up one of the players while watching the NESCAC tournament. My son was fourteen at the time. NESCAC’s were a possibility. He was waiting for the current game to end so his could start warming up. He won a starting job soph year and lost it junior year. He didn’t play much senior year. But he loved his coach. This was interesting to me given the coach’s public reputation and behavior on the field. But the net of it was he wasn’t walking away from an HA education. I was surprised he didn’t walk when he saw the writing on the wall senior year. But he liked his teammates and the camaraderie.
I don’t believe you see this often at a D1. However, one of my son’s teammates believed he could win a starting job for four years, never did and never got more than forty at bats in a season. He was always one of the first in the high five line off the bench. There were a lot of places he could have started.
All college baseball is competitive to some degree. There is no doubt about that. But there is a huge range in the level of talent from the worst D3 to the best D1 teams. Part of the equation is finding (early on) the proper level of competition for YOUR KID. To me, this is where so many people get off track right from the jump. D1 or bust mentality has always been foolish IMO but never more so than now. Water always finds its own level eventually. But unless you have been on the field yourself you have no idea what it takes to get on the field at a top 30 D1 baseball program. It takes a lot more than baseball skills and the vast majority of players at that level are doing good if they can carve out a role that’s significant.
It seems like there is always someone on a team struggling, so there's always an opportunity for a bench player to step in and make something happen. I've come to appreciate a coach with a short leash and a quick hook who will cycle through the bench players when the starting 9 aren't firing on all cylinders.
@adbono posted:All college baseball is competitive to some degree. There is no doubt about that. But there is a huge range in the level of talent from the worst D3 to the best D1 teams. Part of the equation is finding (early on) the proper level of competition for YOUR KID. To me, this is where so many people get off track right from the jump. D1 or bust mentality has always been foolish IMO but never more so than now. Water always finds its own level eventually. But unless you have been on the field yourself you have no idea what it takes to get on the field at a top 30 D1 baseball program. It takes a lot more than baseball skills and the vast majority of players at that level are doing good if they can carve out a role that’s significant.
@adbono I agree. We are finding some interesting scenarios with this new Team Roster Turnover Insights
Upon reviewing the PAC-12, it seems going into the 2020 season, Washington State had the highest Player Attrition Rate.
19 players from 2019 were not on 2020 roster, we call it not on the roster vs left the team because the player can be a non-rostered redshirt.
We started looking at the why?
Red flag, many freshman left program after 2019 season
They were spread across multiple positions
After the 2019 season (11-42-1), there was a coaching change, thus a mass exodus
The new coach brought in 9 transfers.
Distribution by Position
Again every situation will be different.
Interesting thing to note is that some of the 8 schools have fairly new coaches, but some have quite long-term coaches with long losing records. It is always said on here that "coaches have to win or they won't keep their jobs," but clearly that is not always true. Could it be true that some schools, even at the D1 level, value baseball as a character-building extracurricular rather than a win-at-all-costs business?
Given CBI's example, how can a recruit possibly tell whether a perennially losing team is about to change coaches, or not?
Probably not often, but sometimes things work out for the best for all parties. Son went to college ready to compete for playing time if given an opportunity (fortunately he went to a smaller-rostered D1).
We thought he a good chance to travel with team based on his versatility, speed, defense and ability to bunt. As things evolved, as a freshman son unseated a 3-year starter at second base. The former second baseman became the starting right fielder. He had his best year at plate, hitting over .300 and named second team all-conference. He is now completing medical school. RipkenFanSon and he continue to be good friends.
Back to the OP....... Francis (for reasons known only to him) selected 8 of the worst D1 baseball programs - from 3 of the least competitive baseball conferences in America. Simply put, baseball is not important at those schools and those conferences. I would bet that most schools in those conferences aren’t fully funded. In the shortened 2020 season the best record in the MAAC was 6-8, and the overall conference record was 35-121-1. If you attend one of those schools it should be for reasons other than baseball. The best HS teams in Texas, Florida, California & Georgia would quite likely be better than the 8 schools Francis listed.
Well, yes, that was exactly his point. Because that's what everyone says about D3, and he was asking whether it also applies to this sort of D1.
