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In HS game tonight, go ahead run is on third, infield playing on the grass.  Ball is hit on the ground up the middle.  2nd baseman dives on it, stops it, gets to his knees and throws home.  Ball one-hops into the catcher's glove, who turns to tag and in the collision, loses the ball.  Run scores.  

I say FC for the runner, no errors on the play.  Batter could have been thrown out at first, but fielders are trying to stop the run, so had to try for the difficult play. Official scorekeeper says error on 2nd baseman for throw that bounced before reaching the catcher.  He says that an error must be charged if there was no out made when one could have been.  I think you can give the batter a FC and yet still record no error.  Am I wrong?

 

Last edited by bbmom12
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I think you have to do both. You would say the batter reached 1b on a FC and the base runner reached home on an E. Maybe... I'm not totally sure. You're welcome for all the help!

 

So if the runner on 3b beat the throw home would you score it a hit or a FC?

And I believe in your game the error should be on the catcher for dropping the ball. Not on the fielder that 1 hopped the throw if the runner would have been out on the tag.

bbmom12,

 

If a play could have been made on the batter-runner to put him out but a fielder chose not to, by definition it’s a FC.

 

OBR Rule 2.00 FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. …

 

That means the batter-runner reaches 1st on a FC. That takes care of one of the runners. Now you have to account for the runner on 3rd.

 

If the play took place as you described, i.e. there was a collision, why would an error be scored on anyone?

 

OBR Rule 10.12(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:

(2) any fielder who makes a wild throw if in the scorer’s judgment the runner would not have been put out with ordinary effort by a good throw, unless such wild throw permits any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild;

 

From your description of the play regardless of the throw, what the 2nd baseman did in order to make the play was far from “ordinary effort”. Regardless of how good or rotten the throw was, it sure sounds as though the ball got to the catcher in time but was lost it in the collision so how can the fault of not getting the runner be on the throw?

 

OBR Rule 2.00 A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball.

 

IOW, you are correct when you say I think you can give the batter a FC and yet still record no error. Sounds to me like the batter reaches on a FC and is credited with an RBI if there were fewer than 2 outs and the runner scores on ground ball.

PWPW posted:

…And I believe in your game the error should be on the catcher for dropping the ball.

 

If you look at the definition of a catch posted above, how can the catcher drop a ball he never caught?

 

Not on the fielder that 1 hopped the throw if the runner would have been out on the tag.

 

As you can see below, there’s no way the receiver of a throw ever gets charged with an error on a throw that touched the ground unless the ball is caught and the fielder has plenty of time to tag the runner.

 

OBR Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment:

If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error.

The rule says "a runner would have other wise been put out on such a throw". Wouldn't the runner have been put out on the tag and not the throw? He caught the ball and turned to tag, it would seem the catcher dropped the ball on the tag. The one hop throw did not affect the catcher dropping the ball on the tag. So wether the throw was a perfect throw or a one hop in the dirt, the throw and the tag are two separate parts in the play.  Once again, I've been wrong once before so...

Thank you for the replies.  I think the basic thought of the scorekeeper was that if you score a FC for a batter, it means that there must be an E or out made, because someone should have been out, and no one was.  Since a fielder isn't responsible for not catching a bounced throw, it must have been on the 2nd baseman.  Thank you for confirming what I believed - that the above is not true. A throw made from the knees 10 feet behind the pitchers mound is not ordinary effort.  I think that part of the issue was calling the run an earned run - SK kid is the pitcher. (In fairness and transparency in reporting, my kid is the 2B, and this was his 2nd error in over 100 plays this season, and he wasn't happy about it.  In the scheme of things, not a big deal - just wanted to be sure I wasn't mistaken about the need for an E or out since I do a lot of scorekeeping and find the whole process fascinating.)

PWPW - In answer to your earlier question - if the runner from 3rd had just beaten the throw home, I definitely still give the batter a FC, not a hit.

 

Last edited by bbmom12

PWPW posted:

The rule says "a runner would have other wise been put out on such a throw". Wouldn't the runner have been put out on the tag and not the throw? He caught the ball and turned to tag, it would seem the catcher dropped the ball on the tag. The one hop throw did not affect the catcher dropping the ball on the tag. So wether the throw was a perfect throw or a one hop in the dirt, the throw and the tag are two separate parts in the play.  Once again, I've been wrong once before so...

 

The catcher didn’t make a “misplay”. The tag wasn’t made because of the collision and no scorer I’ve ever come across would change an error because of it. Think about an OFr chasing a fly ball who gets the ball in his glove and slams into the wall and drops the ball before the requirements for a catch are met. He wouldn’t be dinged for an error either.

I guess I was looking at it as the collision wasn't as violent as an out fielder's running into a wall since those type of plays aren't allowed and the runner should have been called out in that case anyway. I assumed that by "collision" she meant that when the runner slid into the tag at home the catcher dropped the ball. I'm tough on catchers (being a catcher coach) so it seemed an error in my eyes. I stand corrected.

Stats4Gnats posted:

PWPW posted:

The rule says "a runner would have other wise been put out on such a throw". Wouldn't the runner have been put out on the tag and not the throw? He caught the ball and turned to tag, it would seem the catcher dropped the ball on the tag. The one hop throw did not affect the catcher dropping the ball on the tag. So wether the throw was a perfect throw or a one hop in the dirt, the throw and the tag are two separate parts in the play.  Once again, I've been wrong once before so...

 

The catcher didn’t make a “misplay”. The tag wasn’t made because of the collision and no scorer I’ve ever come across would change an error because of it. Think about an OFr chasing a fly ball who gets the ball in his glove and slams into the wall and drops the ball before the requirements for a catch are met. He wouldn’t be dinged for an error either.

But couldn't maybe the catcher have held on to the ball if the 2B threw a clean throw instead of a one hopper? Maybe the catcher could have avoided the collision if he wasn't busy picking the bounced throw.

i have never scored though so I'm not sure this is an option.

It could be true that a throw that didn't bounce would have resulted in an out.  The ball was definitely there in time - the umpire was looking to see if the ball was in the mitt before making the call - but obviously there would have been more time with a better throw.  But in this case, short of the batter/runner taking 2nd or the runner who was on second also scoring, I don't think there is a scenario that I would call an error on either 2B or C regardless of where the throw ended up. But, as I have admitted above, I may be biased toward the 2B.  Without the diving stop, two runs score on the ball up the middle, and no time to stand up to throw. I would hope given the same scenario, he would make the throw again, whether he officially gets the E or not.

Last edited by bbmom12

FC all the way. No errors on anyone.

A one-hop throw into the catcher's glove isn't a bad throw. Also, you don't charge an error on a throw that leads to a bang-bang tag play if the throw gave the team a chance to make the putout and nobody else advances because of any misadventures that resulted from the throw.

And you don't charge the catcher for failing to hang on to a ball through a collision.

The fielder's choice rule doesn't require that the choice was a prudent one, only that the fielder could have retired the batter but chose not to. 

You see it frequently when a team bunts with runners on first and second and the fielder tries but fails to get the lead runner at third. 

I am interested in the collision. Where did the catcher set up? Did the runner slide?  Where did the collision occur?Rule changes have tried to minimize them, and this sounds like the kind of play that a collision might have been preventable.

There was nothing about the slide that I thought was questionable from the runner's perspective.  Catcher was set up slightly in front of the plate toward third.  By the time he turned to tag, the runner was right there.  Catcher ended up off his feet, but "collision" might have been too harsh of a word for me to chose.

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