http://espn.go.com/espn/commen...s-industrial-complex
The guy may be a little over the top, but not much. Love the cartoon, and the term "sports industrial complex."
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The article is meant to gin up false outrage, as I'm sure it will do there ... and here 
There are really strong points in his article that are hard to refute. Are we taking things way overboard at a very young age? Probably so. Do a lot of parents think they have the next MLB star? Probably so. What it comes down to is that we all wish greatness upon our children and will do whatever it takes to put them in the best possible position to succeed. These avenues didn't exist when the majority of us were playing baseball growing up, otherwise, our parents too might have spent thousands of dollars to give us the best chances at success.
I recall talking to a friend the other day and saying to him that I thought so and so's kid started "club ball" a couple of years too late, as he was a bit behind the curve on getting recruited. Was that an accurate statement? Based on the majority of the kid's paths to college, it was. But in all reality, I'm sure the kid is just fine. Travel ball has ingrained this way of thinking upon us. Has "travel ball" churned out some great players? Yes. However, has travel ball created players that would not have been great without the benefit of travel ball. Hard to say.
I recall talking to a friend the other day and saying to him that I thought so and so's kid started "club ball" a couple of years too late, as he was a bit behind the curve on getting recruited. Was that an accurate statement? Based on the majority of the kid's paths to college, it was. But in all reality, I'm sure the kid is just fine. Travel ball has ingrained this way of thinking upon us. Has "travel ball" churned out some great players? Yes. However, has travel ball created players that would not have been great without the benefit of travel ball. Hard to say.
My biggest worry about the "travel ball" situation is that kids start to believe the games are what matters. Baseball is a skill-based sport, and they need to get reptitions. At times, kids will travel and play all weekend, then take the weekdays off to "rest up" for the next weekend. Wouldn't it be better to stay around town and practice more often?
quote:Originally posted by realteamcoach:
My biggest worry about the "travel ball" situation is that kids start to believe the games are what matters. Baseball is a skill-based sport, and they need to get repetitions. At times, kids will travel and play all weekend, then take the weekdays off to "rest up" for the next weekend. Wouldn't it be better to stay around town and practice more often?
quote:Are we taking things way overboard at a very young age?
Just look at what is going on in everything else with kids. a lot of it not positive. the article just reinforces what is going on.
Like most parents who visit this site, I have given my son the opportunity to play “travel ball”. He started at age 10 and played for on of the top teams in that age group in our area. He also played little league and ended up playing on a highly competitive10U team and a neighborhood 11U team during the same year. My son had a passion for baseball and wanted to play as much as he could. At that age he was smaller than most kids but he learned quickly he had to be fundamentally sound to compete at that level. I think this drove him to get better.
As he got older, we stopped playing on the highly competitive team, mainly due to finances and continue to play with the “neighborhood” team. Many of the people I knew from the “travel ball” community often questioned why our team didn’t compete in the top events or try and recruit better players. I struggled with thoughts of “Am I putting my son in the best position for him to further his baseball career” We went through a period where we were looking at opportunities on other teams that were more competitive that in my mind would give my son better opportunity in the future. By the time he was 14, he had stopped playing travel ball and just played junior high school ball. He also had the opportunity to play basketball and football at that point and continued playing all three sports up until his junior year in high school.
If he would have stuck to just baseball and he continued with top travel team, would it have made a difference? I would say yes. Looking back would I have done it different? NO!! He just began his Freshman year at a good NAIA school. He will have the opportunity to keep playing baseball, get a good education, meet lifelong friends and really enjoy his college years.
Will he make the major leagues? Probably not. But as long as he keeps working and keeps playing, who knows.
I guess my point is that as a 10 year old I saw his passion for the game and no matter what level of baseball he played the passion has grown. Every kid is different and as a parent I would not want to be judged nor would I judge the path a parent and a player take in this game.
As he got older, we stopped playing on the highly competitive team, mainly due to finances and continue to play with the “neighborhood” team. Many of the people I knew from the “travel ball” community often questioned why our team didn’t compete in the top events or try and recruit better players. I struggled with thoughts of “Am I putting my son in the best position for him to further his baseball career” We went through a period where we were looking at opportunities on other teams that were more competitive that in my mind would give my son better opportunity in the future. By the time he was 14, he had stopped playing travel ball and just played junior high school ball. He also had the opportunity to play basketball and football at that point and continued playing all three sports up until his junior year in high school.
If he would have stuck to just baseball and he continued with top travel team, would it have made a difference? I would say yes. Looking back would I have done it different? NO!! He just began his Freshman year at a good NAIA school. He will have the opportunity to keep playing baseball, get a good education, meet lifelong friends and really enjoy his college years.
Will he make the major leagues? Probably not. But as long as he keeps working and keeps playing, who knows.
I guess my point is that as a 10 year old I saw his passion for the game and no matter what level of baseball he played the passion has grown. Every kid is different and as a parent I would not want to be judged nor would I judge the path a parent and a player take in this game.
Lot's of truth in the article with hyperbole of course. I personally see no reason for true "travel ball" at any age below 12u. I have a 3 yr old son. If he is playing ball at 8 or 9, I can assure you I will not travel to NY for a tournament. To each their own, but at that young age, it's just not something I'm willing to do.
As the Founder of the Area Code games 1987-2004 and the Coach of the Northern California Chicago Cubs travel team in 1987-88, I can only offer a few simple observations from years of interviews with pro scouts,college coaches, players and parents.
1. Travel teams would not exist, if they are losing $$$$.
2. Travel teams and showcases would not exist unless pro scouts and college coaches attend the games.
3. Travel teams should provide weekly instruction in base running, hitting, throwing and defense.
4. Since most parents have personal coaches, the travel ball coach must "walk a fine" line to remain consistent in his coaching. The answer is to invite the personal coach to a clinical discussion [debate].
5. "Teach the player to teach himself". Teach balance of the mind and body.
6. Allow the player to play other sports [cross training].
7. Find a local track coach [speed has no slumps]
8. Above all "enjoy the game", study the game and have "fun".
Bob Williams
PS: Last year in Adelaide, South Australia a most remarkable
event occurred and I did not record, except by memory.Myself and 8 pro scouts [our coaches] conducted a clinic for 100 Australian. Dante Bichette Sr offered his time for a 3 hours hitting seminar. All our scouts were impressed with the passion
and wisdom of Dante's presentation, including his son Dante Jr.
1. Travel teams would not exist, if they are losing $$$$.
2. Travel teams and showcases would not exist unless pro scouts and college coaches attend the games.
3. Travel teams should provide weekly instruction in base running, hitting, throwing and defense.
4. Since most parents have personal coaches, the travel ball coach must "walk a fine" line to remain consistent in his coaching. The answer is to invite the personal coach to a clinical discussion [debate].
5. "Teach the player to teach himself". Teach balance of the mind and body.
6. Allow the player to play other sports [cross training].
7. Find a local track coach [speed has no slumps]
8. Above all "enjoy the game", study the game and have "fun".
Bob Williams
PS: Last year in Adelaide, South Australia a most remarkable
event occurred and I did not record, except by memory.Myself and 8 pro scouts [our coaches] conducted a clinic for 100 Australian. Dante Bichette Sr offered his time for a 3 hours hitting seminar. All our scouts were impressed with the passion
and wisdom of Dante's presentation, including his son Dante Jr.
Bob,
This was about travel/elite for very young players. How many coaches and scouts attend those/
I don't think that anyone disputes that travel/elite teams do not provide value when it becomes more meaningful.
This was about travel/elite for very young players. How many coaches and scouts attend those/
I don't think that anyone disputes that travel/elite teams do not provide value when it becomes more meaningful.
I can't find any points to debate in that article. I thought it was pretty much right on the mark.
Funny, I drafted this post (below) last week and had not put it up. It dovetails with the ESPN article. Here is what we are seeing locally with a final question:
The form and structure of organized baseball is always changing and I wonder if some of you folks are seeing what we are seeing here in middle Tennessee at the younger ages.
There is a local Sports Training Academy (kind of a split off from D1 Sports Training) that started out offering training in several sports for high school up to professional athletes. Their trainees have done very well in being recruited by major college programs and in being drafted in early rounds of professional sports.
A couple of years ago, this same outfit added a Baseball Academy aimed at young players. The Baseball Academy has teams from 7U and up and has begun to pull many of the better players from the local Baseball Club which sponsors and runs the Rec League. I understand the appeal of having your boy play on an Academy team as the instruction is better than you get in daddy ball of the Rec League. For instance, the Academy teams are coached by former major D1 starters, MiLB players and there is a smattering of special instruction by former MLB players. The fee is typically $1,000 for the younger ages and higher for the older kids who will play in more tournaments. Travel for young ones is generally limited to 20 or so miles away. In other words, these guys aren’t going overboard as far as I can tell. There are typically four or five practices in the fall so the boys can play flag football then spring practice begins in February and the team is done by the end of June.
The baseball club has responded to the competition by offering travel to younger and younger ages such that there will be an official Baseball Club sponsored 7U travel team next year (and up of course). “Travel” is actually a misnomer as most (maybe all) of the games for the younger ages means a 20 mile drive at most and there are also double headers and tournaments on the home fields. The Baseball Club has also begun to sponsor an Open League where an approved coach can put together a team to play a travel-like schedule. These teams are a bit below the travel team for that age in terms of competition level.
All this has significantly diminished pool of players available for the Rec Program. With that goes the community aspect playing your friend from school in a Rec game. If you are on an Academy team, BC travel or open team, you are most likely playing a kid from the next town over.
Are you folks out there in baseball-land seeing the same thing in your communities? Thanks.
The form and structure of organized baseball is always changing and I wonder if some of you folks are seeing what we are seeing here in middle Tennessee at the younger ages.
There is a local Sports Training Academy (kind of a split off from D1 Sports Training) that started out offering training in several sports for high school up to professional athletes. Their trainees have done very well in being recruited by major college programs and in being drafted in early rounds of professional sports.
A couple of years ago, this same outfit added a Baseball Academy aimed at young players. The Baseball Academy has teams from 7U and up and has begun to pull many of the better players from the local Baseball Club which sponsors and runs the Rec League. I understand the appeal of having your boy play on an Academy team as the instruction is better than you get in daddy ball of the Rec League. For instance, the Academy teams are coached by former major D1 starters, MiLB players and there is a smattering of special instruction by former MLB players. The fee is typically $1,000 for the younger ages and higher for the older kids who will play in more tournaments. Travel for young ones is generally limited to 20 or so miles away. In other words, these guys aren’t going overboard as far as I can tell. There are typically four or five practices in the fall so the boys can play flag football then spring practice begins in February and the team is done by the end of June.
The baseball club has responded to the competition by offering travel to younger and younger ages such that there will be an official Baseball Club sponsored 7U travel team next year (and up of course). “Travel” is actually a misnomer as most (maybe all) of the games for the younger ages means a 20 mile drive at most and there are also double headers and tournaments on the home fields. The Baseball Club has also begun to sponsor an Open League where an approved coach can put together a team to play a travel-like schedule. These teams are a bit below the travel team for that age in terms of competition level.
All this has significantly diminished pool of players available for the Rec Program. With that goes the community aspect playing your friend from school in a Rec game. If you are on an Academy team, BC travel or open team, you are most likely playing a kid from the next town over.
Are you folks out there in baseball-land seeing the same thing in your communities? Thanks.
I have said this before but this is why I think this site is so important for people who really want to get it.
In some ways I was the parent they describe in the article. Son started playing "select" when he was about ten. Played on some really good, sucessful teams.
But the dark side. Lost friendships due to parental issues. I have guys I was good friends with that we rarely speak anymore. My best friend coached with a guy for years and were friends from high school until two years ago. No longer speak due 11 year olds playing baseball. Not proud of it but it is true.
My kid thinking I was a lunatic for a few years both when I was coaching and when I wasn't. Lots of regrets to say the least.
Don't get me wrong we had some great times too. We didn't travel all over but had some family vacations that are great memories around baseball. Honestly more good times than bad I think.
After trolling here for almost a year I realize that a lot of the stuff my son has done before now does not matter. He is an 8th grader now. It is about what happens in the future that matters. I can guide him but it has to be about him wanting to do the work.
I am on the board of a local Optomist baseball league. I was at tryouts for the Coach pitch age group last Saturday. I tried to find my old self in the crowd and I was there. The dad hanging on the fence urging his little guy to do his best way too into it for the situation. When they are yours you lose sight of them as little boys. As I lead each out of the dugout it hit me how little they really were. I don't remember seeing my son in that way at all and it is a shame. I am thankful and lucky that it appears I did not ruin mine and his passion for baseball.
Sorry so long but my point is that this site can help people see the light if they are willing to listen. I still hold onto the belief that some day I will see my son play in the major leagues but thanks to this site I keep that to myself and go about it with him much differently. And realize that everything including when, how, etc. he plays comes down to his choice and not mine. Our relationship has come full circle and I am blessed to have found this place.
In some ways I was the parent they describe in the article. Son started playing "select" when he was about ten. Played on some really good, sucessful teams.
But the dark side. Lost friendships due to parental issues. I have guys I was good friends with that we rarely speak anymore. My best friend coached with a guy for years and were friends from high school until two years ago. No longer speak due 11 year olds playing baseball. Not proud of it but it is true.
My kid thinking I was a lunatic for a few years both when I was coaching and when I wasn't. Lots of regrets to say the least.
Don't get me wrong we had some great times too. We didn't travel all over but had some family vacations that are great memories around baseball. Honestly more good times than bad I think.
After trolling here for almost a year I realize that a lot of the stuff my son has done before now does not matter. He is an 8th grader now. It is about what happens in the future that matters. I can guide him but it has to be about him wanting to do the work.
I am on the board of a local Optomist baseball league. I was at tryouts for the Coach pitch age group last Saturday. I tried to find my old self in the crowd and I was there. The dad hanging on the fence urging his little guy to do his best way too into it for the situation. When they are yours you lose sight of them as little boys. As I lead each out of the dugout it hit me how little they really were. I don't remember seeing my son in that way at all and it is a shame. I am thankful and lucky that it appears I did not ruin mine and his passion for baseball.
Sorry so long but my point is that this site can help people see the light if they are willing to listen. I still hold onto the belief that some day I will see my son play in the major leagues but thanks to this site I keep that to myself and go about it with him much differently. And realize that everything including when, how, etc. he plays comes down to his choice and not mine. Our relationship has come full circle and I am blessed to have found this place.
Extremely sloppy, slipshod hit piece.
The author pokes fun at the over-zealous parents but takes no notice of the fact that the most over-the-top parent fans appear annually at his beloved Little League World Series, and the author's publisher (ESPN) is responsible for much of the excess. Wow, it takes SO much moral courage to rail against the competitors of your boss's business partner. Look in the mirror.
Why is author so hung up on the under ten crowd that he has to mention them in nearly every paragraph? Does he not know that most players don't begin travel ball until near the end of their Little League careers when their parents realize that Little League won't prepare them to make their high school team? Or does he lack the intellectual curiosity to ask whether Little League even offers a viaible alternative to the middle school and the high school aged players who make up the overwhelming majority of the travel ball population? Or is he just a lazy hack lashing out at the easiest target?
The author mocks the profligate use of "select" and "elite" in team names, but doesn't seem to realize those terms came into vogue only after Little League tournament play totally debased the term "all star" by having more tournaments than its talent pool can support. My town's Little League has six teams in its majors division, from which it draws three all-star teams (11-12, 11U, 10U). After subtracting the players who don't want to commit to tournament season, they hand out "all star" shirts to kids who didn't even start for their Little League team. Once Little League made "all star" a synonym for "average," organizers of more competitive baseball teams had to find other terms. Sorry he doesn't like what they picked.
He appears to think Little League is entitled to a monopoly on youth baseball but offers only resentment of its successful competitors instead of explaining why. If Little League wants to compete for better players, particularly in its Junior (13-14), Senior (15-16), and Big League (17-18) Divisions, they should make some effort to play on decent fields, get qualified coaches, and hire competent umpires. Or they can just have their business partners at ESPN write sarcastic little rants about the organizations that are meeting the obvious market demand for a better competitive experience.
I was really disappointed to reach the end of the article and find out that this scrub actually makes a living calling himself a journalist and has attained the title of Senior Writer. As I read it, I just assumed it had been written by an intern or a guest fan-columnist. It's really a lame effort. Maybe he was in a hurry to head out for vaaction and just knocked it out without thinking.
The author pokes fun at the over-zealous parents but takes no notice of the fact that the most over-the-top parent fans appear annually at his beloved Little League World Series, and the author's publisher (ESPN) is responsible for much of the excess. Wow, it takes SO much moral courage to rail against the competitors of your boss's business partner. Look in the mirror.
Why is author so hung up on the under ten crowd that he has to mention them in nearly every paragraph? Does he not know that most players don't begin travel ball until near the end of their Little League careers when their parents realize that Little League won't prepare them to make their high school team? Or does he lack the intellectual curiosity to ask whether Little League even offers a viaible alternative to the middle school and the high school aged players who make up the overwhelming majority of the travel ball population? Or is he just a lazy hack lashing out at the easiest target?
The author mocks the profligate use of "select" and "elite" in team names, but doesn't seem to realize those terms came into vogue only after Little League tournament play totally debased the term "all star" by having more tournaments than its talent pool can support. My town's Little League has six teams in its majors division, from which it draws three all-star teams (11-12, 11U, 10U). After subtracting the players who don't want to commit to tournament season, they hand out "all star" shirts to kids who didn't even start for their Little League team. Once Little League made "all star" a synonym for "average," organizers of more competitive baseball teams had to find other terms. Sorry he doesn't like what they picked.
He appears to think Little League is entitled to a monopoly on youth baseball but offers only resentment of its successful competitors instead of explaining why. If Little League wants to compete for better players, particularly in its Junior (13-14), Senior (15-16), and Big League (17-18) Divisions, they should make some effort to play on decent fields, get qualified coaches, and hire competent umpires. Or they can just have their business partners at ESPN write sarcastic little rants about the organizations that are meeting the obvious market demand for a better competitive experience.
I was really disappointed to reach the end of the article and find out that this scrub actually makes a living calling himself a journalist and has attained the title of Senior Writer. As I read it, I just assumed it had been written by an intern or a guest fan-columnist. It's really a lame effort. Maybe he was in a hurry to head out for vaaction and just knocked it out without thinking.
Oh and by the way:
Baseball has nothing on Volleyball yet. Just saying.
Baseball has nothing on Volleyball yet. Just saying.
BackstopDad32- Yes, it is part of the zeitgeist. Friend's kid starts Juilliard soon. If a high school baseball player spent as much time practicing as the musician did/does, his parents would be locked up!
Elite travel teams for 7-12 yr olds are a waste of money and is all about the parents pounding their cheses claiming their lkid is great because he plays elite. My kid played only rec ball and the local all-star district teams in the summer up until he was 12 and it didn't hurt him any by not playing in so called elite leagues leagues. He still played four years on the high school team. At that age, it's more about parental status and businesses raking in money off those who buy into the notion that elite leagues are needed for 8-9 yr olds.
There really is no benefit to these elite leagues until these players are at least 15-16 years old and are serious about going college or pro and need to showcase in front of potential recruiters and scouts.
As for the article itself, I really wasn't impressed with it and sounds like it was writtn by a parent who's kid got snubbed from playing on select teams
There really is no benefit to these elite leagues until these players are at least 15-16 years old and are serious about going college or pro and need to showcase in front of potential recruiters and scouts.
As for the article itself, I really wasn't impressed with it and sounds like it was writtn by a parent who's kid got snubbed from playing on select teams
There is definitely a problem with all the one-upmanship, parents using children to compete with other parents, etc. Way too much truth in that.
What gets overlooked, though, is that what is fueling travel ball at the youth level is the wholesale failure of our traditional recreational baseball programs to serve their customer base.
Little League, Babe Ruth, Dixie, etc. have all just completely forsaken the player who wants a competitive, instructional experience, or who wants to play the game for more than a few months a year. The glorification of the national tournaments, in which a relative handful of players get to participate, should not lead us to overlook the fact that the young kid who just loves baseball is looking for more than 15 spring games that de-emphasize the competitive nature of the game.
Travel teams offer a free market alternative, and evidently people are willing to pay for that alternative in droves.
What gets overlooked, though, is that what is fueling travel ball at the youth level is the wholesale failure of our traditional recreational baseball programs to serve their customer base.
Little League, Babe Ruth, Dixie, etc. have all just completely forsaken the player who wants a competitive, instructional experience, or who wants to play the game for more than a few months a year. The glorification of the national tournaments, in which a relative handful of players get to participate, should not lead us to overlook the fact that the young kid who just loves baseball is looking for more than 15 spring games that de-emphasize the competitive nature of the game.
Travel teams offer a free market alternative, and evidently people are willing to pay for that alternative in droves.
quote:Originally posted by Texas1836:
BackstopDad32- Yes, it is part of the zeitgeist.
Had to google that one
Good points Swampboy.
I thought the article was about parents living vicariously through their kids to somehow derive some sort of prestige from all that for themselves. If you look at the cartoon, that was kind of my take anyways. Like the author said, some kid's talent is mostly due to the fact they matured faster than other kids and parents really shouldn't be beating their chests over that.
BackstopDad32 - your post was refreshing in its honesty. There is nothing wrong in wanting to see your son play in the big leagues. Without that one belief, it is impossible to ever make it there.
I thought the article was about parents living vicariously through their kids to somehow derive some sort of prestige from all that for themselves. If you look at the cartoon, that was kind of my take anyways. Like the author said, some kid's talent is mostly due to the fact they matured faster than other kids and parents really shouldn't be beating their chests over that.
BackstopDad32 - your post was refreshing in its honesty. There is nothing wrong in wanting to see your son play in the big leagues. Without that one belief, it is impossible to ever make it there.
I have nothing against travel baseball at any age. Also, I have nothing against Little League, Rec ball, Elite Ball, Sandlot Ball, or any other type baseball that young kids play. It is all good in my mind. Young kids can be doing a lot worse things than playing baseball no matter what level they play.
If they enjoy it, it's all good stuff. If they aren't having fun, it's not so good. I don't understand why people get so concerned or upset about what the other guy is doing or why he is doing it. Is there some type of criminal activity going on that I'm not aware of?
If they enjoy it, it's all good stuff. If they aren't having fun, it's not so good. I don't understand why people get so concerned or upset about what the other guy is doing or why he is doing it. Is there some type of criminal activity going on that I'm not aware of?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Is there some type of criminal activity going on that I'm not aware of?
There better not be.
I used to be somewhat defensive about the career path my son has chosen but I am no longer. As far as I am concerned, baseball as a career is more honorable than most. This type of pursuit - whether playing, managing, administrative, or scouting takes an intense love and passion for the sport. That love develops as a kid. I agree, baseball is a good thing for kids to do.
quote:Originally posted by Catcherz_Dad:
These avenues didn't exist when the majority of us were playing baseball growing up, otherwise, our parents too might have spent thousands of dollars to give us the best chances at success.
I disagree. Then again we may well have different parents. Not only would my father never have spent $$$ on me to travel/play, he thinks I am a little nuts for doing it with his grandson. Then again I never did many of the things described in the article with my son.
I did start him off in a baseball academy, but it was not designed to produce future pros, rather to teach the kids a love of baseball, learn the fundamentals, and have fun. As it turns out, a good number of kids who excelled from there did go on to play college and pro ball, but that was just a byproduct, not the stated goal.
Some of the money parents pay these days seems insane, especially when you suspect their kids will not play in HS, much less beyond. I know of a handful of parents who spent big $$$ and now say their kid did not make it because they lost interest in the sport. In reality, some of these kids enjoyed playing, but never had the talent or drive their parents believed they possessed. One of my neighbors has gone from his son taking lessons to play baseball, then tennis, and now lacrosse. Each time he has said his kid is one of the best in whatever league he is playing in, but the father is deluded. The kid gets frustrated because the dad keeps pushing him to work harder, take more lessons, etc. The kid gives up and the father moves him on to another sport.
The bottom line is that the article does make some valid points, especially as it relates to parents and their egos. Many never played themselves, but are trying to live vicariously through their kids.
Funny, I was about to post the question “OK, then, what is the right age to start kids playing travel or club or whatever you want to call it?” I was thinking that, yes, 7, 8, 9, 10... far too early. My logical mind was running through the reasons a kid would participate in such a thing... better prepare to make the HS team, give yourself a better shot at playing beyond HS, get better by playing a higher level of competition, satisfy the notion that if you work harder and play better and want to play more than the other guys on the bench, you should play more than the three innings they play, etc. I didn’t agree with one of the posts that said there is no benefit until at least 15-16 y.o. (too late to help with the HS situation). So, I started honing in on somewhere around 12-13 as the logical answer. Perfect. That’s about when my son started club baseball. I must be brilliant.
Then, the light bulb went off. I remembered that the same son started playing rec inline hockey when he was 6. He absolutely loved playing. He has always been very competitive by nature. The pool of rec players was limited in ability. Lots of emphasis on fun and participation, which was great. But by the time he was 9, he really needed to find a more competitive environment. He started playing in a “travel” league that had a reasonable 2 hour radius (reasonable for our remote parts, anyway). There was no HS team to make, no thoughts of college, no aspirations to turn pro. Dad didn’t know enough about hockey to have any thoughts except to just really enjoy watching his son having a blast playing the game as hard as he could. In this instance, it was absolutely the right thing for this young boy.
So, I guess my take away is that the right answer is different for every situation and we shouldn’t be so quick to criticize those decisions by others. But then what fun would we have?
Then, the light bulb went off. I remembered that the same son started playing rec inline hockey when he was 6. He absolutely loved playing. He has always been very competitive by nature. The pool of rec players was limited in ability. Lots of emphasis on fun and participation, which was great. But by the time he was 9, he really needed to find a more competitive environment. He started playing in a “travel” league that had a reasonable 2 hour radius (reasonable for our remote parts, anyway). There was no HS team to make, no thoughts of college, no aspirations to turn pro. Dad didn’t know enough about hockey to have any thoughts except to just really enjoy watching his son having a blast playing the game as hard as he could. In this instance, it was absolutely the right thing for this young boy.
So, I guess my take away is that the right answer is different for every situation and we shouldn’t be so quick to criticize those decisions by others. But then what fun would we have?
These days, rec ball is the bottom of the todem pole mainly generated to house the bottom of the line or mediocre players who want to play the game but either are not talented enough, limited physically, or just have no desire to play at the next level. Rec ball definately has it's place and I have nothing but support for it's cause and what it can do for those who participate.
Travel ball nowdays has every level from darn near rec ball caliber players to the very elite "man-child" teams. With such a vast talent range, travel ball leagues even breaks down age groups by caliber such as that done by Triple Crown Sports". I don't really find anything wrong with "travel ball" as the author of the article seems to think. Sure, you have some misaligned parents and over-zealous coaches and academies out there that are built around prestige, bragging rights, or just making a buck$ but the reality of it is that baseball is getting very popular again and with more kids playing, there really does need to be a point where players can play at the next level. Just playing rec ball nowdays does not prepare one the right way to play at ny "next level" besides the bottom of the todem pole.
I am sure that pretty much the majority of kids who make the HS team these days are coming off of travel teams or have at least played at that level. For the most part, you are just not going to get dedicated players, parents and coaches at the rec level these days. Travel ball has become the preparatory schooling system for teaching kids the game of baseball and preparing them for taking their game seriously and getting to the next level.
In years gone by, and when baseball wasn't as popular, rec ball did the job of advancing players to the next level. Nowdays, with the rapid growth of travel ball, rec ball has been relegated to just providing the minimal program of introducing kids to the sport. Yes, rec ball definately has it's place, but, even more importantly, travel ball has become the system for helping kids achieve the next level. Nothing wrong with that.
In any league, including rec ball, you are going to have "elite" thinking kids, parents and coaches. The article could have just as well been written about rec ball in my opinion. The constant jabs by writers about "travel ball" has gotten old.
Travel ball nowdays has every level from darn near rec ball caliber players to the very elite "man-child" teams. With such a vast talent range, travel ball leagues even breaks down age groups by caliber such as that done by Triple Crown Sports". I don't really find anything wrong with "travel ball" as the author of the article seems to think. Sure, you have some misaligned parents and over-zealous coaches and academies out there that are built around prestige, bragging rights, or just making a buck$ but the reality of it is that baseball is getting very popular again and with more kids playing, there really does need to be a point where players can play at the next level. Just playing rec ball nowdays does not prepare one the right way to play at ny "next level" besides the bottom of the todem pole.
I am sure that pretty much the majority of kids who make the HS team these days are coming off of travel teams or have at least played at that level. For the most part, you are just not going to get dedicated players, parents and coaches at the rec level these days. Travel ball has become the preparatory schooling system for teaching kids the game of baseball and preparing them for taking their game seriously and getting to the next level.
In years gone by, and when baseball wasn't as popular, rec ball did the job of advancing players to the next level. Nowdays, with the rapid growth of travel ball, rec ball has been relegated to just providing the minimal program of introducing kids to the sport. Yes, rec ball definately has it's place, but, even more importantly, travel ball has become the system for helping kids achieve the next level. Nothing wrong with that.
In any league, including rec ball, you are going to have "elite" thinking kids, parents and coaches. The article could have just as well been written about rec ball in my opinion. The constant jabs by writers about "travel ball" has gotten old.
[quote]PGStaff
HSBBWeb Old Timer
I don't understand why people get so concerned or upset about what the other guy is doing or why he is doing it.
PG - Welcome to the club.
HSBBWeb Old Timer
I don't understand why people get so concerned or upset about what the other guy is doing or why he is doing it.
PG - Welcome to the club.
The article does make some good points. However, like many things not all travel programs are created equal. There certainly are some very good ones out there. The one thing that I struggle with in regards to travel ball is the kids who's parents can't afford to play. In a lot of travel organizations that don't have scholarship money available for players.
The other thing that this guy fails to point out in regards to LL is that a lot of those kids in the LL World Series play on travel teams.
I've seen ads for travel teams at 8U, 9U which is just crazy IMO.
The other thing that this guy fails to point out in regards to LL is that a lot of those kids in the LL World Series play on travel teams.
I've seen ads for travel teams at 8U, 9U which is just crazy IMO.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
In years gone by, and when baseball wasn't as popular...
Really, baseball is more popular now?
To put words into your mouth, it seems like you are saying that paying $1000.00+ a season to drive ones kids all over the place to play basically the same level of competition they played "in the olden days" has magically made baseball more popular.
My blood pressure really stabilized when I came to this same realization. :-) Plus, once somebody's in one "camp" (travel or non-travel) you're never going to change their minds anyway. I may think some in both camps are a little nuts, but that's their business. Now I just sit back and smugly shake my head, or nod, as the case may be.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
.......I don't understand why people get so concerned or upset about what the other guy is doing or why he is doing it. .....QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
.......I don't understand why people get so concerned or upset about what the other guy is doing or why he is doing it. .....QUOTE]
Most parents are a little nuts anyway.
cabbagedad, I agree, every situation is different. There is no official Little League in my area, no Pony either. Both have tried start up leagues & failed, very little interest, the ballparks in our area have it covered with rec to sanctioned tournament ball. By 11 or 12, our most competitive teams no longer play league, they practice a lot, & play quite a few tournaments & yes several with a lot of success have had ELITE in their name.
With my oldest we first started him in a local rec league at 5, it was not a good fit teaching wise, & the next year he was playing machine pitch in a more competitive type league. Back then, a good 1/3 of that leagues 7U teams traveled to tournaments, if not more than 20 miles away. He probably played 30 games that 7U season. That was a moderate amount & he had a lot of fun. From that setting, my oldest continued to play a mix of well coached league & local tournament ball till he began HS ball. He also played football, & played basketball till his senior year. With my youngest, slightly different deal. he was a very intense player at a young age, & our concern was keeping it fun, while allowing him to succeed. He is very self driven & a baseball rat. Yes, we chose a much more tournament based team for him, and have not regretted it. He also has excelled in football, & enjoys playing basketball, though a schedule of summer AAU basketball does not fit the schedule.
My point is, limited to 10 to 16 league games & Allstars, my youngest would have been bored & probably given up on baseball years ago. It was great to have choices, & no he never played at a younger age for a pay to play Academy team. Locally, we have several academy teams. At the pre HS ages, their only success seems to be getting the green out of the parents pockets of marginal players. That is one thing I can agree with the author of the article.
With my oldest we first started him in a local rec league at 5, it was not a good fit teaching wise, & the next year he was playing machine pitch in a more competitive type league. Back then, a good 1/3 of that leagues 7U teams traveled to tournaments, if not more than 20 miles away. He probably played 30 games that 7U season. That was a moderate amount & he had a lot of fun. From that setting, my oldest continued to play a mix of well coached league & local tournament ball till he began HS ball. He also played football, & played basketball till his senior year. With my youngest, slightly different deal. he was a very intense player at a young age, & our concern was keeping it fun, while allowing him to succeed. He is very self driven & a baseball rat. Yes, we chose a much more tournament based team for him, and have not regretted it. He also has excelled in football, & enjoys playing basketball, though a schedule of summer AAU basketball does not fit the schedule.
My point is, limited to 10 to 16 league games & Allstars, my youngest would have been bored & probably given up on baseball years ago. It was great to have choices, & no he never played at a younger age for a pay to play Academy team. Locally, we have several academy teams. At the pre HS ages, their only success seems to be getting the green out of the parents pockets of marginal players. That is one thing I can agree with the author of the article.
Well said Gingerbreadman,
Locally, in our stronger 6A baseball programs, whether its the varsity teams or freshman rosters, its often a list of longtime travelball players.
Locally, in our stronger 6A baseball programs, whether its the varsity teams or freshman rosters, its often a list of longtime travelball players.
I agree with portions of the article. I'm one of those crazy parents that had his son playing travel baseball and select AAU basketball beginning at 10U. My daughter was playing select basketball at at the 9U level and continued for seven years. She burned out and quit the game after her sophomore year. My son will be going off to play college baseball in a couple of weeks...so my family is 50/50 in that regard.
I'd have to say that ESPN is a little hypocritical. We have a network that televises 12-13 year olds playing baseball in front of crowds that reached 41,000. They post the velocities for all to see, and convert them to the MLB levels? The author of the article has the audacity to chastise the "Elite" parents/kids about the possibilities of the "next level" of play. Yet, if you tuned into any of the Little League World Series games, anytime a decent play was made with the bat or defensively, we had to listen to Orel and the other commentators mention the "next level"...really?
IMHO,the author probably has a young son that did not make the "Elite" 10U travel team in his Northern California home town, and now he's lashing out at the Travel/Elite/Select establishment. Who really knows?
Don't get me wrong, my wife and I watched the majority of the Little League games and rooted on the kids from Huntington Beach. I was happy to see the team from California bring home the championship. We also enjoyed seeing the Japanese kids have fun, and the noticable transformation of the Japanese coaching staff. I will say without naming the kids, that only the top 3-4 from that championship team would play on an Elite Major 12-13U team in California. In no way is that putting the other kids down, it's just a fact. Obviously it all can change in the next 3-4 years, as a number of things come into play as these kids get older...but that goes with anything in life.
I'd have to say that ESPN is a little hypocritical. We have a network that televises 12-13 year olds playing baseball in front of crowds that reached 41,000. They post the velocities for all to see, and convert them to the MLB levels? The author of the article has the audacity to chastise the "Elite" parents/kids about the possibilities of the "next level" of play. Yet, if you tuned into any of the Little League World Series games, anytime a decent play was made with the bat or defensively, we had to listen to Orel and the other commentators mention the "next level"...really?
IMHO,the author probably has a young son that did not make the "Elite" 10U travel team in his Northern California home town, and now he's lashing out at the Travel/Elite/Select establishment. Who really knows?
Don't get me wrong, my wife and I watched the majority of the Little League games and rooted on the kids from Huntington Beach. I was happy to see the team from California bring home the championship. We also enjoyed seeing the Japanese kids have fun, and the noticable transformation of the Japanese coaching staff. I will say without naming the kids, that only the top 3-4 from that championship team would play on an Elite Major 12-13U team in California. In no way is that putting the other kids down, it's just a fact. Obviously it all can change in the next 3-4 years, as a number of things come into play as these kids get older...but that goes with anything in life.
Great posts. Where a child plays baseball should be answered only after first asking the child "do you want to play," and, if so, "how much" and "what kind of competition are you looking for?" Some boys are fine with a short Little League season; others love the game so much they want to play more. Some want teammates who play as hard as they do and coaches who drive them to be better; others are fine with pizza after the game whether they win or lose. Like PG said, if they enjoy it, it's all good. If they don't, find a different venue/team/sport/hobby.
The writer of the article is making sweeping judgments. I'd think the same thing of someone writing that "Little League is dead and there's no reason to have rec baseball because those kids aren't driven enough and will never compete in the bigs." Ludicrous.
PS I have to admit that I don't like the terms elite or select. Sounds too funny cheering "GOOOO ELITE!" Just pick a mascot already!
The writer of the article is making sweeping judgments. I'd think the same thing of someone writing that "Little League is dead and there's no reason to have rec baseball because those kids aren't driven enough and will never compete in the bigs." Ludicrous.
PS I have to admit that I don't like the terms elite or select. Sounds too funny cheering "GOOOO ELITE!" Just pick a mascot already!
quote:Originally posted by bsbl247: I will say without naming the kids, that only the top 3-4 from that championship team would play on an Elite Major 12-13U team in California.
Four of the kids on that team do play for an Elite Majors team - So. Cal. Rebels.
quote:These avenues didn't exist when the majority of us were playing baseball growing up, otherwise, our parents too might have spent thousands of dollars to give us the best chances at success.
I find that very unlikely during the time I grew up because parents didn't get involved with us playing baseball. We played on our own unlike most kids today. The only way the parents got involved was to pay the rec fees for those of us who signed up the local league and for the most part, us kids rode our bikes with glove and bat to all the games. The parents rarely went because dad would work and mom had to stay home and take care of the house and kids.
Plus back then, many of our parents didn't have that kind of money and if they went for broke on their kids, it would be for an education, not glorified baseball leagues. The ones that stood out ended up playing for their HS teams and legion teams in the summer, then if they were that good, they continued on and went as far as their ability took them.
quote:Originally posted by dw8man:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
In years gone by, and when baseball wasn't as popular...
Really, baseball is more popular now?
To put words into your mouth, it seems like you are saying that paying $1000.00+ a season to drive ones kids all over the place to play basically the same level of competition they played "in the olden days" has magically made baseball more popular.
I should modify my statement- "youth baseball is more popular now". With the advent of internet, satellite TV broadcasting a myriad of baseball games, and technology pushing the sport, youth baseball has tremendously increased in popularity. When i was a kid you never heard or had access to what we have now. Kids watch this stuff, get interested more and more and it thus brings more kids out to want to also play and compete. Leagues today play longer seasons, have more games, more teams, etc. With that it was inevatable that "travel teams" would arise to accomidate a growing talent pool whop wanted something more than just the bare minimum.
When I was a kid (some 30+ yrs ago) there were no travel teams around. The talent was basically mediocre and the popularity of it at the youth level to play competetively was non-existant. Sure, we played a lot of sandlot types of games- we threw every day til the sun went down, etc, but as for having an organized system in place to drive talent- it just did not exist.
The media has done a lot to make baseball popular in todays society amongst both youth and adults alike. With that popularity comes a higher gross number of talent type of kids. Because of that effect, travel ball got popular to meet the growing demand of playing something better than just "rec ball".
GBM,
Not sure where you are getting your info... unfortunately, baseball participation has been declining for many years. From 2000 to 2009, participation in U.S. for ages 7-17 declined 24% (according to a very reliable source - National Sporting Goods Association). And I know that it certainly declined in the '90's as well.
It has been a constant battle for the major manufacturers to keep the baseball equipment numbers from declining due to the increasing popularity of video games, board sports, etc. over the last few decades.
Not sure where you are getting your info... unfortunately, baseball participation has been declining for many years. From 2000 to 2009, participation in U.S. for ages 7-17 declined 24% (according to a very reliable source - National Sporting Goods Association). And I know that it certainly declined in the '90's as well.
It has been a constant battle for the major manufacturers to keep the baseball equipment numbers from declining due to the increasing popularity of video games, board sports, etc. over the last few decades.
quote:Originally posted by Rob T:quote:Originally posted by bsbl247: I will say without naming the kids, that only the top 3-4 from that championship team would play on an Elite Major 12-13U team in California.
Four of the kids on that team do play for an Elite Majors team - So. Cal. Rebels.
...not a surprise.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
I find that very unlikely during the time I grew up because parents didn't get involved with us playing baseball. We played on our own unlike most kids today. The only way the parents got involved was to pay the rec fees for those of us who signed up the local league and for the most part, us kids rode our bikes with glove and bat to all the games. The parents rarely went because dad would work and mom had to stay home and take care of the house and kids.
Plus back then, many of our parents didn't have that kind of money and if they went for broke on their kids, it would be for an education, not glorified baseball leagues. The ones that stood out ended up playing for their HS teams and legion teams in the summer, then if they were that good, they continued on and went as far as their ability took them.
Exactly, and I think parents probably had a better sense of what their disposable income(assuming they had any)should be used for.
I remember being sent to a private HS where most kids had fancy cars. I was riding my bike 5 miles to get there, rain or shine. My father told me that all his spare money was going to pay for the school so I could get a good education, and that he could not afford to buy me a car.
He said if I wanted a car, I'd have to get a job to pay for it, but my grades had better not drop, otherwise he would not allow me to drive it. Needless to say, parents did more parenting in those days, rather than trying to be friends with their kids.
I learned important lessons being raised that way, and sometimes wonder if I have shortchanged my son by giving him more than I ever had. I did make him ride his bike to school one summer for sponsored workouts at 7am. Needless to say it helped to build up his legs, and gave him an appreciation of what I went through year round as a kid before I could afford a car.