Swampboy, your post hit the nail on the head. You are also correct when you say Travel Ball normally starts at 12 or 13yr. old.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
7, 8, and 9 y.o. kids that "scare" other kids because they're that much better? Are you kidding?
I remember many, many times seeing coaches in 6U and 8U pull their infielders back because a hitter was "scary". Have you seen many games at this age?
I haven't read the article because I have been swamped with work and life but I am willing to share my story.
I started a travel team when my son was 8. It was a mix of 8u and 9u kids who were frustrated with the teachings at the local rec leagues. I personally decided to start this team bc I was physically challenged to a fight (not once, but twice) during games by opposing coaches in one of these rec leagues. Once for very politely informing a volunteer umpire (a HS fastpitch softball player) that she incorrectly interpreted a rule. This was done in between innings and we were both laughing. The other time was for quietly talking to one of our players about staying down on the ball even when the runner was in front of him. (Apparently, the other coach took offense to my instruction). I didn't care whether we won or lost. We just had fun...until the adults took the fun out of it.
So...I started a team. I selected the team by parents alone. I picked good people for parents. I didn't really care how good the kids were. I figured we could make the kids good if they wanted it bad enough. The only question I asked the kids is "Do you want to be here?". We worked on the fundamentals all fall and finally scrimmaged another team late in the fall to see "where we stood". We got CRUSHED 18-1 and 17-0 with only 2 hits. We kept practicing. By spring, we were pretty good. We stayed local as much as possible and did not travel until we were winning significantly more than we were losing. Our only travel was to play in the state AAU tourney for 9U teams, even though half of my roster could play 8U coach pitch. We came in 3rd out of 17 teams. We played better fundamental baseball than any other team out there. The physically bigger teams finished 1 and 2. Not bad for a group of runts.
From there, the older kids moved up and our younger kids (including me) stayed down. We went onto win many championships and finish very high in most every tourney we played, including the 14U WWB. All of my kids who still play baseball will be going on a scholarship. So...it is not always about travelling and spending tons of money in pursuit of glory. This may be releveant and it may not. I've only read a few posts in this thread. But I will say this...if you ask our kids (now seniors in HS) their best memory, I can guarantee you it will be because of our travel team. To date, I consider the parents of my players some of my best friends.
I started a travel team when my son was 8. It was a mix of 8u and 9u kids who were frustrated with the teachings at the local rec leagues. I personally decided to start this team bc I was physically challenged to a fight (not once, but twice) during games by opposing coaches in one of these rec leagues. Once for very politely informing a volunteer umpire (a HS fastpitch softball player) that she incorrectly interpreted a rule. This was done in between innings and we were both laughing. The other time was for quietly talking to one of our players about staying down on the ball even when the runner was in front of him. (Apparently, the other coach took offense to my instruction). I didn't care whether we won or lost. We just had fun...until the adults took the fun out of it.
So...I started a team. I selected the team by parents alone. I picked good people for parents. I didn't really care how good the kids were. I figured we could make the kids good if they wanted it bad enough. The only question I asked the kids is "Do you want to be here?". We worked on the fundamentals all fall and finally scrimmaged another team late in the fall to see "where we stood". We got CRUSHED 18-1 and 17-0 with only 2 hits. We kept practicing. By spring, we were pretty good. We stayed local as much as possible and did not travel until we were winning significantly more than we were losing. Our only travel was to play in the state AAU tourney for 9U teams, even though half of my roster could play 8U coach pitch. We came in 3rd out of 17 teams. We played better fundamental baseball than any other team out there. The physically bigger teams finished 1 and 2. Not bad for a group of runts.
From there, the older kids moved up and our younger kids (including me) stayed down. We went onto win many championships and finish very high in most every tourney we played, including the 14U WWB. All of my kids who still play baseball will be going on a scholarship. So...it is not always about travelling and spending tons of money in pursuit of glory. This may be releveant and it may not. I've only read a few posts in this thread. But I will say this...if you ask our kids (now seniors in HS) their best memory, I can guarantee you it will be because of our travel team. To date, I consider the parents of my players some of my best friends.
quote:We just had fun...until the adults took the fun out of it.
Bingo!!!!!!
Redbird.
In all honesty I don't consider that to really be a travel or select team in my definition of the word. You saw a need and got with like minded parents to create a team yourselves and devoted yourself to teaching kids the right way to play baseball. It sounds like you progressed form rec to limited travel based upon progress of the kids and not based upon anything else. I commend you for that.
What I worry about are the proliferation of teams that ask for 2-3k to play and make comments that your son will fall behind his peers if he doesn't play. You don't have to pay $2500 dollars to get fundamental instruction for your son. Basics can be taught by a competent rec league coach. My son got decent basic instruction from his coach from the age of 7-11 and whe he didn't know I had supplemented by taking my son to camps and individual instruction.
The biggest thing that made my son a decent ballplayer was me. No, I am not some great ballplayer but I was the guy that went out and hit baseball after baseball to him. I spent hours throwing to him, taking balls of of every part of my body in the process. If parents think that paying 2500 dollars will take the place of that then they are fooling themselves and shortchanging their sons.
In all honesty I don't consider that to really be a travel or select team in my definition of the word. You saw a need and got with like minded parents to create a team yourselves and devoted yourself to teaching kids the right way to play baseball. It sounds like you progressed form rec to limited travel based upon progress of the kids and not based upon anything else. I commend you for that.
What I worry about are the proliferation of teams that ask for 2-3k to play and make comments that your son will fall behind his peers if he doesn't play. You don't have to pay $2500 dollars to get fundamental instruction for your son. Basics can be taught by a competent rec league coach. My son got decent basic instruction from his coach from the age of 7-11 and whe he didn't know I had supplemented by taking my son to camps and individual instruction.
The biggest thing that made my son a decent ballplayer was me. No, I am not some great ballplayer but I was the guy that went out and hit baseball after baseball to him. I spent hours throwing to him, taking balls of of every part of my body in the process. If parents think that paying 2500 dollars will take the place of that then they are fooling themselves and shortchanging their sons.
Fun is what we make it, & our children make of it. With my sons & their teammates the focus was to slowly prepare them for playing on the big field, build strong mechanics, strong work ethics, reinforce mental toughness & a determination to never quit, & have fun doing so. In all, respect the game, support their teammates, tournament team coaches, & school coaches. Both sons have had a lot of fun, but playing local league baseball & picking the "best" parents & having "fun" was not the top factors back at 10 years old.
The other day picking up my youngest, saw the looks on the faces of quite a few freshman who were cut after Frosh HS basketball tryouts (big school, no freshman will play JV or V this year). At 9 & 10, my youngest son played basketball against quite a few of these boys locally. Nearly every one of them still had that "just want to have fun" youth BB "coaching", even up through the winter of 2010. Eye opening results, today, not really.
Another example, late last Spring, several good friends sons made one of our bigger program's HS Frosh summer school team. Close to 50 players tried out, 16 made the roster. The group who made the team was loaded with really strong aaa & majors tournament players. No surprise, as nearly every one of them has been playing at a high youth level since they were <gasp> 9 & 10. Just another situation where fun absorbed league players had their chance.
The other day picking up my youngest, saw the looks on the faces of quite a few freshman who were cut after Frosh HS basketball tryouts (big school, no freshman will play JV or V this year). At 9 & 10, my youngest son played basketball against quite a few of these boys locally. Nearly every one of them still had that "just want to have fun" youth BB "coaching", even up through the winter of 2010. Eye opening results, today, not really.
Another example, late last Spring, several good friends sons made one of our bigger program's HS Frosh summer school team. Close to 50 players tried out, 16 made the roster. The group who made the team was loaded with really strong aaa & majors tournament players. No surprise, as nearly every one of them has been playing at a high youth level since they were <gasp> 9 & 10. Just another situation where fun absorbed league players had their chance.
quote:Originally posted by Wklink:
...sounds like you progressed form rec to limited travel based upon progress of the kids and not based upon anything else...
I didn't finish the story...Sorry.
Well, after that first year, we started traveling. We handled the competition around here pretty well and sought out better competition. At 10U, we took 2 big trips - Cooperstown (runner up) and Disney for AAU Nationals (7 out of 70). At 11U, we went to CDP, Battle in the South and AAU Nationals (9 out of 84). At 12U, same again with high finishes. We traveled quite a bit but, again, only to face better competition.
One advantage our kids had over other teams in our region is that they faced the best pitchers on every team we played. We developed a reputation for being good and everyone wanted to beat us. It has helped our kids over the years develop quicker than others, IMO.
I was never big on building crazy budgets and paying our coaching staff. Our parents paid signifacntly less than the $2000-2500 figure bandied about.
Also, we never cut players. You were on our team until you decided you didn't want to be but once you left, you were not allowed back. Playing time was pretty equal but just because you wanted to be a SS, did not mean you got to play there during games. We put kids in position to be successful and, sometimes, that meant them playing RF or LF baseb on their ability.
quote:Originally posted by Wklink:
Redbird.
In all honesty I don't consider that to really be a travel or select team in my definition of the word. You saw a need and got with like minded parents to create a team yourselves and devoted yourself to teaching kids the right way to play baseball. It sounds like you progressed form rec to limited travel based upon progress of the kids and not based upon anything else. I commend you for that.
What I worry about are the proliferation of teams that ask for 2-3k to play and make comments that your son will fall behind his peers if he doesn't play. You don't have to pay $2500 dollars to get fundamental instruction for your son. Basics can be taught by a competent rec league coach. My son got decent basic instruction from his coach from the age of 7-11 and whe he didn't know I had supplemented by taking my son to camps and individual instruction.
The biggest thing that made my son a decent ballplayer was me. No, I am not some great ballplayer but I was the guy that went out and hit baseball after baseball to him. I spent hours throwing to him, taking balls of of every part of my body in the process. If parents think that paying 2500 dollars will take the place of that then they are fooling themselves and shortchanging their sons.
Redbirds post reminds me of what we did with son, a group of parents from certain towns in the county got together to form a travel league within the local Khoury League. That was our travel in grade school, plus a few tournanaments every now and then. They usually played up for those, that was good experience. And some of those guys were scary, when son was 11-12 other teams players had beards already. It certainly didn't scare them. And some of those older guys would dominate, but after awhile they usually found a way to win.
Lots and lots of time spent working on fundamentals. And camps too on holidays, run by the local HS coaches as well as a few local college camps, provided great instruction and fun. Summer was baseball break time and were spent on other sports. Some kids chose to continue playing and traveled, ours did not. He had other interests and he had other friends that didn't play baseball.
What I loved most was what you said about you being the biggest influence in making your son a decent ball player, same goes for here. Hours and hours of catch, hitting balls out and hours and hours of going to pro games (spring training and milb) and hours and hours of watching the Braves on TV. That and an appreciation of the history of the game, I do believe laid the foundation for his future in the game.
A lot does depend on the child. My son would play baseball year round if given the chance. This year (he is an incoming Freshman) is the first in the last five years that he hasn't played some sort of summer baseball. I actually told him he wasn't going to play (except for three camps) because this summer we were going to do things that aren't baseball related. We went to DC, went to Gettysburg and spent the summer doing more than just going to baseball games.
Redbird, the rest of your story is pretty cool and again reinforces my opinion that your travel team isn't what I would call a travel type team in the traditional sense. If my son had been in the area I would have tried getting him on a team like that. Unfortunately your story is different from what I have seen for the most part. We have boards out here with about 15 different 'select' teams screaming "We have room for two more kids. Join our Championship caliber team!" I'm not sure what a championship caliber 10U team is but it seems like every one is.
Again, all kids are different. Some kids clamor to be on a team like that and if the parents can afford it then go for it. What I object to are people that make statements saying that a kid will be behind if he doesn't get involved in something like this at a very early age. It simply isn't true. If it was the Major Leagues would be setting up programs themselves-legal or not.
Redbird, the rest of your story is pretty cool and again reinforces my opinion that your travel team isn't what I would call a travel type team in the traditional sense. If my son had been in the area I would have tried getting him on a team like that. Unfortunately your story is different from what I have seen for the most part. We have boards out here with about 15 different 'select' teams screaming "We have room for two more kids. Join our Championship caliber team!" I'm not sure what a championship caliber 10U team is but it seems like every one is.
Again, all kids are different. Some kids clamor to be on a team like that and if the parents can afford it then go for it. What I object to are people that make statements saying that a kid will be behind if he doesn't get involved in something like this at a very early age. It simply isn't true. If it was the Major Leagues would be setting up programs themselves-legal or not.
This whole discussion is a chicken or the egg theory. IMO the better players, the ones with natual talent, play travel ball because they are naturally better players than most before they start playing on the travel teams. Better natural athletes.
I don't believe they become better athletes because they play on a travel team rather than a rec all star team. Mike Trout and Bryce Harper would still be super baseball players whether they started playing travel baseball at 14 or 9 year old.
I also think that a youth baseball player enhances his talents during the off season rather than during the season. I said this before, but a hitter who takes 10,000 swings from November thru February, under the supervision of knowledgeable coaches is going to be much further ahead of the player who doesn't. Regardless of what team he plays for. With all the academies out there today a rec player can do this as easily as a travel player. And if the rec kid gets better doing this he will probably become a travel player at some point if he wants to.
I think this applies more even with the "elite" teams than the average travel teams. The naturally talented players who love baseball and work hard at it are typically the ones playing on the top teams. Again, IMO they aren't there because someone taught them how to turn two. They are there because the are naturally talented players who worked at the game and their game grew as they did.
I don't mean to deminish any team coaching because good coaching is invaluable, but the player has to put in a lot of work off the field to become a top player.
I don't believe they become better athletes because they play on a travel team rather than a rec all star team. Mike Trout and Bryce Harper would still be super baseball players whether they started playing travel baseball at 14 or 9 year old.
I also think that a youth baseball player enhances his talents during the off season rather than during the season. I said this before, but a hitter who takes 10,000 swings from November thru February, under the supervision of knowledgeable coaches is going to be much further ahead of the player who doesn't. Regardless of what team he plays for. With all the academies out there today a rec player can do this as easily as a travel player. And if the rec kid gets better doing this he will probably become a travel player at some point if he wants to.
I think this applies more even with the "elite" teams than the average travel teams. The naturally talented players who love baseball and work hard at it are typically the ones playing on the top teams. Again, IMO they aren't there because someone taught them how to turn two. They are there because the are naturally talented players who worked at the game and their game grew as they did.
I don't mean to deminish any team coaching because good coaching is invaluable, but the player has to put in a lot of work off the field to become a top player.
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
I don't believe they become better athletes because they play on a travel team rather than a rec all star team. Mike Trout and Bryce Harper would still be super baseball players whether they started playing travel baseball at 14 or 9 year old.
I think I mentioned that a few times but there are some who still want to believe that travel ball (I am talking extensive lots of $$) makes better ball players.
However, the type of players above are exceptions, but reality is that it's talent and ability (along with desire) that reap rewards that brings opportunities.
What do you consider travel ball???? (a)traveling out side your local town, LL ? (b)Traveling an hr away for a double header? maybe 1 tournament out of state or (c)traveling around the country?
I'm not saying travel ball is good or bad but in travel ball you are playing with/against the best players who can afford $$ to play.
I do think its important to get "exposure" once you start HS. Depending on where you live you may have to play "travel ball" or go to some showcases.
I'm not saying travel ball is good or bad but in travel ball you are playing with/against the best players who can afford $$ to play.
I do think its important to get "exposure" once you start HS. Depending on where you live you may have to play "travel ball" or go to some showcases.
To each his own. My son starting playing travel ball at age 11. At that time only because the regular town ball was over and was only July 4th.
Junior loves baseball, so we joined a summer league hour and half from the house. Played in tournaments and had fun. Since then every summer we played travel.
It turned into a wonderful time for the whole family. Our vacations were taken around the tournaments, great family time, we traveled to Long Island, South Carolina, Pittsburg, Ohio, Cinciniti, Buffalo, you get the picture. The Buffalo trip we stayed in a hotel over looking Niagara Falls, my wife loved it, we stopped at the Hall of Fame on the way back.
So my point being the travel ball can be much more than baseball for Junior but a great time for the entire family, and really good quailty family time. Memories we will have forever.
Junior started college last week, before he left we sat around talked about all the good times on the road and at the different tournaments and kids he has met and played against. As it turns out there are four kids he has played with in the past that are on a rival team in his conference.
On a final note prior to this summer he was already commited, as a family we decided to play travel anyway, an again it was great, you never know when opportunites are going to come, he was seen by a scout, the scout had a meeting with him and plans to follow his progress this fall and spring. I would recommend travel to everyone. If not for the baseball, then for the great family time.
Junior loves baseball, so we joined a summer league hour and half from the house. Played in tournaments and had fun. Since then every summer we played travel.
It turned into a wonderful time for the whole family. Our vacations were taken around the tournaments, great family time, we traveled to Long Island, South Carolina, Pittsburg, Ohio, Cinciniti, Buffalo, you get the picture. The Buffalo trip we stayed in a hotel over looking Niagara Falls, my wife loved it, we stopped at the Hall of Fame on the way back.
So my point being the travel ball can be much more than baseball for Junior but a great time for the entire family, and really good quailty family time. Memories we will have forever.
Junior started college last week, before he left we sat around talked about all the good times on the road and at the different tournaments and kids he has met and played against. As it turns out there are four kids he has played with in the past that are on a rival team in his conference.
On a final note prior to this summer he was already commited, as a family we decided to play travel anyway, an again it was great, you never know when opportunites are going to come, he was seen by a scout, the scout had a meeting with him and plans to follow his progress this fall and spring. I would recommend travel to everyone. If not for the baseball, then for the great family time.
quote:Originally posted by fivehole:
So my point being the travel ball can be much more than baseball for Junior but a great time for the entire family
No doubt, it can be. But- what if you only have one baseball player? Is it fair to your other children to drag them along? Or, does the family split up for the weekend?
Just asking. Would like to hear how people handle it.
Tpm
It is funny because redbird and I have the same story. I paid $250 for my sons team last year. All the kids live within 20 miles of each other. We play locally and in Knoxville which is a little over 1 hour away. Webteach fundamentals and are coached by qualified dads. We only travel outside state for world series.
What is different about what he is doing and we Are doing? He was an elite team. Did it make his son better? In my opinion yes.
All I have said is it increases chances. Not a guaranteed thing
Interesting redbirds son and mine know each other because they played together and we live 8 hours apart.
It is funny because redbird and I have the same story. I paid $250 for my sons team last year. All the kids live within 20 miles of each other. We play locally and in Knoxville which is a little over 1 hour away. Webteach fundamentals and are coached by qualified dads. We only travel outside state for world series.
What is different about what he is doing and we Are doing? He was an elite team. Did it make his son better? In my opinion yes.
All I have said is it increases chances. Not a guaranteed thing
Interesting redbirds son and mine know each other because they played together and we live 8 hours apart.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:quote:Originally posted by fivehole:
So my point being the travel ball can be much more than baseball for Junior but a great time for the entire family
No doubt, it can be. But- what if you only have one baseball player? Is it fair to your other children to drag them along? Or, does the family split up for the weekend?
Just asking. Would like to
hear how people handle it.
We have three sons who all played travel at different levels. Last summer all three sons were playing the same week in three different states. Both mom and I went with youngest for his world series. Interesting they all three pitched same day and time.
I tell parents that travel is not for everyone. It has to be a family thing. We have had to go separate ways and even at times send one with someone. That is why finding the right team and parents are important.
I think bottom line is, those parents whose kids started at 8,9,10 are going to believe that it is necessary or at least beneficial to start at those ages. Parents of those kids who started at 12 and beyond believe that it is not necessary and the benefits may be marginal.
If you have a kid who started at 12+, and they made it to the next level, then obviously, it wasn't necessary. If your kids started at the young ages and made it to the next level, you will really never know whether it was necessary or not. All we can do is relish the moments and hope that it gave your son and family some joy and good memories.
Antz, to answer your question, my older baseball son is 18, his younger brother is 15. He used to come to all the events with us. Eventually, he got tired of it and doesn't want to come anymore. When we go out of town, say for the week long PG events, he will come as part of a family "vacation". He will usually bring a friend with him to kill the bordem. It is tough on him, so we give him latitude to find a friends house to hang out at for the weekend stuff, or at times, I will go with my baseball son and wife will stay home for his little brother. Might not be the best thing, but it is what it is.
If you have a kid who started at 12+, and they made it to the next level, then obviously, it wasn't necessary. If your kids started at the young ages and made it to the next level, you will really never know whether it was necessary or not. All we can do is relish the moments and hope that it gave your son and family some joy and good memories.
Antz, to answer your question, my older baseball son is 18, his younger brother is 15. He used to come to all the events with us. Eventually, he got tired of it and doesn't want to come anymore. When we go out of town, say for the week long PG events, he will come as part of a family "vacation". He will usually bring a friend with him to kill the bordem. It is tough on him, so we give him latitude to find a friends house to hang out at for the weekend stuff, or at times, I will go with my baseball son and wife will stay home for his little brother. Might not be the best thing, but it is what it is.
You have to question your argument when you are on a baseball site arguing for playing less baseball.
We have 2 sons, 1 a non baseball player. Basically, he really enjoyed the big tournaments, as they were set in fun venues, and we always did some fun things on our trips. He also enjoyed watching his brother's team playing against very good competition. As far as your routine doubleheader or tournament, we let him make those decisions. Generally 1 parent would go to the tournament and 1 would stay home, or my son might go stay with his "mimi", whom he adores. He had his own activities, and he always knew it was his choice. That way we both got to spend one on one time with each son. Most families I knew seemed to have similar practices. Now that both are older and can spend the day at home alone it really isn't an issue, but older son will decide to come when he doesn't have anything else to do and wants to come. If we're going to Jupiter or East Cobb he's the first in the car and watches more games than any of us. Please don't assume that any non baseball playing child in attendance is being dragged along.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
You have to question your argument when you are on a baseball site arguing for playing less baseball.
1st of all, we are on a HIGH SCHOOL baseball website. No one is arguing about High School age kids playing less baseball. The discussion is about the benefit or lack thereof of kids basically 10 and under playing about as much baseball as a HS or even College player.
That was kind of a low blow Sultan.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Tpm
It is funny because redbird and I have the same story. I paid $250 for my sons team last year. All the kids live within 20 miles of each other. We play locally and in Knoxville which is a little over 1 hour away. Webteach fundamentals and are coached by qualified dads. We only travel outside state for world series.
What is different about what he is doing and we Are doing? He was an elite team. Did it make his son better? In my opinion yes.
All I have said is it increases chances. Not a guaranteed thing
Interesting redbirds son and mine know each other because they played together and we live 8 hours apart.
The differences are not about travel ball, but rather are (the differences) if under a certain age
will it benefit the player later on.
I don't attribute my player being better because he did or didn't travel. Actually, what I can attribute it to the level of competition he played after HS, and please note that travel ball in grade school did not help him get to the D1 her attended. Son was always a good ball player, above average in HS, a good one in college, and working on become a better one as a professional. I don't attribute that to going away for weekends with the family when 8,9,10, playing a few games and swimming in the pool, and hanging around the vidoe game room. I do agree that those times make wonderful memories, for us. Actually I think son never thinks twice or cares about what he did under 13.
You may not understand that, maybe you do, but you have taken the position here that we or I don't like travel ball, no one ever said that. What most do is object to the philsophy that it makes better players and under a certain age really has little significance. I would expect and hope by 13,14,15 players are traveling.
These are tough times, I feel for the folks that have limited funds to do what we all could easily do many years ago. Spend you money wisely, and if that means playing at the local rec, so be it. Don't be ashamed. Playing baseball 365 days a year for 10 years before one enters HS is not necessary.
My argument came with you when you called out Bum regarding going to watch a top level 9/10U, which to me means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Why would you make a statment like that when you know nothing about him, his son, and his experiences he's had with his son and bb? You have no idea what any of our kids have had to go through to play, or stay in the game, that stuff before HS is insignificant. IMO.
You and I have differences of opinion on certain issues, I think you said that you let your son pitch at 6? Mine began at 8 and I would wait if to do it over. If your son someday pitches for a living, has been off and on the DL for 3-4 seasons, 3 surgeries, and behind for his age due to that you only have yourself to look in the mirror. It's called wear and tear.
So I repeat, that playing big league baseball under 13U isn't necessary, and nothing will ever change my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by smalltownmom:
Please don't assume that any non baseball playing child in attendance is being dragged along.
I don't. Most kid-spectators seem to enjoy being there. I've also seen, and tried to entertain, some that do not (not hsbbwebbers, of course
)
I didn't call BUM out. Reread it. He talked about 9 year olds throwing 45 mph. I challenged him to go see a top level tournament and realize that they throw mid 60s. That was all I said to him and then you began to huff and puff and out words in my mouth. We agree that it I'd the parents choice. And btw we don't stay in motels or swim so you don't know me either. I still believe it is helpful to play as good a competition as you can with the good training no matter whether it is baseball football or academics. Elite teams can play in their own towns Elite means best no most cost.
"These kids today play too much and practice too little." 
How's that for a new tagline?
How's that for a new tagline?quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
You have to question your argument when you are on a baseball site arguing for playing less baseball.
This discussion isn't about the merits of travel ball, which can can provide plenty of benefits for high school age players. It's about travel ball for kids under 10. And I can't believe people are talking about about putting radar guns on 9 year olds. Good grief. That's the sort of excess the original story that started this thread was addressing.
Antzdad-- I misread your post at first, but see where you didn't imply that. Sorry. I've really only known 1 example of someone absoulutly being dragged, and I didn't even know them. Two childre, a baby and toddler, used to attend the tournaments my child participated in for probably a year or so. It was so obvious they were miserable, crying for all to hear and of course they had reason to be cranky. I never had the guts to approach the mom or dad and ask why one of them didn't stay home with their babies. They weren't on our team and I didn't know them. Other than that just seemed like the kids we were around were pretty happy being there.
catfish342-- I sure hope you're teasing about seeing radat guns on 9 year olds. Haven't been around that age in a long time.
catfish342-- I sure hope you're teasing about seeing radat guns on 9 year olds. Haven't been around that age in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I didn't call BUM out. Reread it. He talked about 9 year olds throwing 45 mph. I challenged him to go see a top level tournament and realize that they throw mid 60s. That was all I said to him and then you began to huff and puff and out words in my mouth. We agree that it I'd the parents choice. And btw we don't stay in motels or swim so you don't know me either. I still believe it is helpful to play as good a competition as you can with the good training no matter whether it is baseball football or academics. Elite teams can play in their own towns Elite means best no most cost.
Who cares what 9 year olds are throwing, that doesn't mean that is what they will be throwing in HS. Maybe there is some confusion, you said you have been all over the US now it's local?
No issue with playing against good competition, it just doesn't matter at 9.
My younger boy actually played in the 9u NABF World Series, so I know how hard those kids throw. Exactly three of the kids on that team played h.s. baseball, including my boy.
The hardest thrower in our mid-size town (200,000) threw 71 at age 11 and 90 at age 15 before having TJ at age 16. He ended up recovering and pitched on one of the best NAIA teams in the country.. throwing 90. I'm certain his throwing too hard too soon didn't help. His injury probably wasn't the velocity itself but the fact he was way over-pitched when he was young. I've always been obsessed with velocity and even started a thread on it once but looking back I can only say be careful what you wish for.
The hardest thrower in our mid-size town (200,000) threw 71 at age 11 and 90 at age 15 before having TJ at age 16. He ended up recovering and pitched on one of the best NAIA teams in the country.. throwing 90. I'm certain his throwing too hard too soon didn't help. His injury probably wasn't the velocity itself but the fact he was way over-pitched when he was young. I've always been obsessed with velocity and even started a thread on it once but looking back I can only say be careful what you wish for.
I have to say that you look at things differently when your player is all grown up.
Say you pay a great deal of money to play travel ball every year from age 8 to 18. Spend a great deal of money on lessons over 10 years.....practice practice practice....push push push...why? What do you think your going to get out of it ????? play in HS? probably, top raked D1 baseball? doubt it, Pro ball ? rarely...
Its all about spending time with your son,family,friends and making great memories. You can do with or with out spending a great deal of money or even playing baseball
Say you pay a great deal of money to play travel ball every year from age 8 to 18. Spend a great deal of money on lessons over 10 years.....practice practice practice....push push push...why? What do you think your going to get out of it ????? play in HS? probably, top raked D1 baseball? doubt it, Pro ball ? rarely...
Its all about spending time with your son,family,friends and making great memories. You can do with or with out spending a great deal of money or even playing baseball
Very interesting thread, very spirited no doubt. GUN played locally until he was 8 years old. At 9, he began playing exclusively select SuperSeries and USSSA tournaments in Texas. At 11-12, we travelled thru Texas, Arkansas, and Tennessee. At 13/14, he played mostly 60/90, some 54/80. At 15,16 & 17 years old he lived in a different city playing on 17U/18U teams in WWBA, AABC, TSL, Premier, and Pasttime events in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Colorado. That same trend continued at 18, with a different organization.
So, I guess I am the definition of an over-the-top dad.
Did I force him, no. Did he love it, yes. Did it make a huge difference playing early, on older teams, maybe. Would he trade any of those years/relationships/memories, no. Would I change a thing if we were granted a do-over, never.
I know the level of competition will help him now. I also know his exposure of playing 2-3 years up in age will serve him well in college. Does it mean he will succeed in college, remains to be seen. BUT, we had an absolute B L A S T !!! It worked for him, and we have a very special relationship because of it.
He just signed to play with a great summer collegiate league team, so our blessings continue. Maybe the best thing from his journey - he truly loves the game, understands the game, honors the game, and he never took any part of it for granted. Its not just what he does, it is the center of his world. Fortunately, he's hooked up and when it's over he'll be fine.
95% of the kids he played with from 15 years old till now are playing in college, at various levels. The kids he played with 8-14, not so much, maybe 20% at best. But, it worked for GUN.
GED10DaD
So, I guess I am the definition of an over-the-top dad.
Did I force him, no. Did he love it, yes. Did it make a huge difference playing early, on older teams, maybe. Would he trade any of those years/relationships/memories, no. Would I change a thing if we were granted a do-over, never.
I know the level of competition will help him now. I also know his exposure of playing 2-3 years up in age will serve him well in college. Does it mean he will succeed in college, remains to be seen. BUT, we had an absolute B L A S T !!! It worked for him, and we have a very special relationship because of it.
He just signed to play with a great summer collegiate league team, so our blessings continue. Maybe the best thing from his journey - he truly loves the game, understands the game, honors the game, and he never took any part of it for granted. Its not just what he does, it is the center of his world. Fortunately, he's hooked up and when it's over he'll be fine.
95% of the kids he played with from 15 years old till now are playing in college, at various levels. The kids he played with 8-14, not so much, maybe 20% at best. But, it worked for GUN.
GED10DaD
njbb, Bum, Jr. was one of those kids who practiced year-round. But he wanted it so bad that he never once complained. He took pitching instruction with a local D1 pitching coach in the offseason, worked out at the health club, did plyometrics-core-strength-cardio, and did long-toss year-round, even in Winter.
The drive he had is what made it work. My younger boy tagged along and did it, too, but baseball, it turned out, was not his thing. (But don't cry for him, he ended up at a pretty good college.)
I think a common theme from ages 13+ for those kids that make it to D1 or pro is their drive, their work ethic. Does it guarantee it? No, but without it it guarantees it will never happen.
It's okay to be an over-the-top baseball parent, but make sure it's his dream, not yours.
GunEm.. PM me and let me know where your son is playing next summer!
The drive he had is what made it work. My younger boy tagged along and did it, too, but baseball, it turned out, was not his thing. (But don't cry for him, he ended up at a pretty good college.
)I think a common theme from ages 13+ for those kids that make it to D1 or pro is their drive, their work ethic. Does it guarantee it? No, but without it it guarantees it will never happen.
It's okay to be an over-the-top baseball parent, but make sure it's his dream, not yours.
GunEm.. PM me and let me know where your son is playing next summer!
This was a pretty well-debated topic imho. We are having two guests on HSBBWEB Radio this weekend - redbird5 and Midlo Dad who both run travel teams and we'll specifically ask them for their opinions regarding these issues. One question that I definitely want to ask redbird, since he commented on it above, is picking the team based on the parents. Should be an interesting discussion.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
redbird5 and Midlo Dad who both run travel teams
It might be better to ask them if they've ever heard any stories about such things.
Jeff and Bum,
When the kids were 9u their "all-star" team played in a tournament and won. One of the other teams wasn't too bad and they had an A and a B team. The B team wasn't too strong. One of the kids on the B team didn't stand out at all. The next year he was on their 10u LL all-star team which beat us to win the district and went on to go as far as a 10u LL team could go back then.
The kid was the winning pitcher in the LLWS US championship game as a 12yo topping out around 74mph. He's now pitching for an Ivy and doing quite well despite not throwing all that hard topping out in the mid 80s last time I heard.
The morale of the story is that kids change and change a lot as they mature. There are plenty of kids who don't stand out at 9u who go on to future success in the game and plenty who do stand out at 9u who don't. This kid went from not standing out, to being an absolute stud, to being someone who is a pitchability kind of guy. He went from big and a bit clumsy at 9u, to a stud who was way bigger and taller than other 12yo, and finally to be a bit undersized for a pitcher.
When the kids were 9u their "all-star" team played in a tournament and won. One of the other teams wasn't too bad and they had an A and a B team. The B team wasn't too strong. One of the kids on the B team didn't stand out at all. The next year he was on their 10u LL all-star team which beat us to win the district and went on to go as far as a 10u LL team could go back then.
The kid was the winning pitcher in the LLWS US championship game as a 12yo topping out around 74mph. He's now pitching for an Ivy and doing quite well despite not throwing all that hard topping out in the mid 80s last time I heard.
The morale of the story is that kids change and change a lot as they mature. There are plenty of kids who don't stand out at 9u who go on to future success in the game and plenty who do stand out at 9u who don't. This kid went from not standing out, to being an absolute stud, to being someone who is a pitchability kind of guy. He went from big and a bit clumsy at 9u, to a stud who was way bigger and taller than other 12yo, and finally to be a bit undersized for a pitcher.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
This was a pretty well-debated topic imho. We are having two guests on HSBBWEB Radio this weekend - redbird5 and Midlo Dad who both run travel teams and we'll specifically ask them for their opinions regarding these issues. One question that I definitely want to ask redbird, since he commented on it above, is picking the team based on the parents. Should be an interesting discussion.
Hope you can tune in this evening as we discuss this very topic and more with two very distinguished guests on hsbbweb radio!
"He talked about 9 year olds throwing 45 mph. I challenged him to go see a top level tournament and realize that they throw mid 60s."
In the prepubescent years kids may be physically plus or minus three years of his actual age. Nine year olds throwing in the sixties are physically twelve years old. Most nine year olds do throw in the 40's.
When my son was playing 9U there were four on the team called the Fab4. My son was the runt of the group. The other three didn't grow much post puberty and didn't make high school teams. My son is now 6'1" and a college prospect.
What made my son one of the Fab4 wasn't his size and strength. On a small field teams couldn't throw him out unless he hit the ball on the nose right at someone. He's still fast. But 6.75 (sixty) is blinding speed.
In the prepubescent years kids may be physically plus or minus three years of his actual age. Nine year olds throwing in the sixties are physically twelve years old. Most nine year olds do throw in the 40's.
When my son was playing 9U there were four on the team called the Fab4. My son was the runt of the group. The other three didn't grow much post puberty and didn't make high school teams. My son is now 6'1" and a college prospect.
What made my son one of the Fab4 wasn't his size and strength. On a small field teams couldn't throw him out unless he hit the ball on the nose right at someone. He's still fast. But 6.75 (sixty) is blinding speed.
My son a 2013 started playing "travel ball" at 9U and I don't think there was a kid that loved playing baseball more than he did at that age. He was fortunate to have had and what I still believe are the finest coaches of teaching the game in our area. Around the age of 13/14 I began to see a loss of interest and it became a bit of a struggle to get him to go to practice and the traveling became less like fun and more of a burden on him. Like a lot of parents I had on the daddy/mommy blinders on and thought the good coaching and more advanced practice sessions would be more beneficial in the long run? He left his travel team but continued playing HS baseball. I still believe that travelball or advanced coaching is necessary to continue on and play college baseball in 90-95% of all kids. I guess my point is that travel/elite ball is not for all kids and never more important than a kid losing his love of the game. My son still has hopes of playing college baseball, if so it will have to be through HS but that remains to be seen.
Great topic. And like most things, plenty of opinions and experiences from all sides.
I think the key to this discussion is what your definition of "Travel" Ball is.
Is driving across town to play travel?
Driving an hour?
My son started playing "Travel" ball when he was 8. I coached in the local rec league. They had a tournament after the season was over, and it was open to any teams around. One of the other coaches approached me about putting some of my players and some of his players together and playing in it.
That tourney was 15 minutes from the house. We decided to keep the group together through the Fall, since Fall Ball for our league was really loosely organized and poorly run. So we played in I think two 9U tourneys. Furthest was 20 minutes away.
That next Spring we put some of that original team with some other kids in the local area. The kids all played local rec ball....and all of them looked forward to All Stars. But we played local tournaments that did not conflict with rec ball. I think the furthest was 45 minutes away. As a few tournaments passed, we started to look for more competition. Not being facetious, or snobbish, just stating fact. We played in a couple of large NIT type tourneys...I think the furthest was NC. We even took them to a World Series that Summer. It was in Charlotte. We rented houses on Lake Norman and had a blast. (Couple of Dad's brought their boats for tubing).
When it got a bit too serious, and one of the new coaches started to become a drama expert, myself, another coach and quite a few of the parents/players left. I started another team and actually jumped an age group. Half the team was playing up. The other half were kids that needed work. I had so much fun as a coach that year. We ended a good bit over .500 and had a blast. Again mostly local. I think we had one overnight stay for tourneys the whole season.
The following year I kept my younger guys down and they played their level. Played in a couple of over nights...mostly local stuff. Had a blast.
But I digress.
From that original 9U group we put together? They are all 14/15 now.
All but one made their HS teams.
In all actuality two more of those guys probably won't ever make the move to V and contribute.
It's been fun and highly rewarding coaching these kids.
Do I feel it's necessary? Who knows. Do I feel it's made my 14 year old son a better baseball player than those who didn't play this type of ball? More than likely.
I think the key to this discussion is what your definition of "Travel" Ball is.
Is driving across town to play travel?
Driving an hour?
My son started playing "Travel" ball when he was 8. I coached in the local rec league. They had a tournament after the season was over, and it was open to any teams around. One of the other coaches approached me about putting some of my players and some of his players together and playing in it.
That tourney was 15 minutes from the house. We decided to keep the group together through the Fall, since Fall Ball for our league was really loosely organized and poorly run. So we played in I think two 9U tourneys. Furthest was 20 minutes away.
That next Spring we put some of that original team with some other kids in the local area. The kids all played local rec ball....and all of them looked forward to All Stars. But we played local tournaments that did not conflict with rec ball. I think the furthest was 45 minutes away. As a few tournaments passed, we started to look for more competition. Not being facetious, or snobbish, just stating fact. We played in a couple of large NIT type tourneys...I think the furthest was NC. We even took them to a World Series that Summer. It was in Charlotte. We rented houses on Lake Norman and had a blast. (Couple of Dad's brought their boats for tubing).
When it got a bit too serious, and one of the new coaches started to become a drama expert, myself, another coach and quite a few of the parents/players left. I started another team and actually jumped an age group. Half the team was playing up. The other half were kids that needed work. I had so much fun as a coach that year. We ended a good bit over .500 and had a blast. Again mostly local. I think we had one overnight stay for tourneys the whole season.
The following year I kept my younger guys down and they played their level. Played in a couple of over nights...mostly local stuff. Had a blast.
But I digress.
From that original 9U group we put together? They are all 14/15 now.
All but one made their HS teams.
In all actuality two more of those guys probably won't ever make the move to V and contribute.
It's been fun and highly rewarding coaching these kids.
Do I feel it's necessary? Who knows. Do I feel it's made my 14 year old son a better baseball player than those who didn't play this type of ball? More than likely.
Sorry to revive this old thread, but I enjoy these discussions and wanted to give my opinion.
Is travel baseball absolutely necessary for a kid to become a college or professional player? Of course, the answer is no. There are always going to be exceptions.
Does playing travel baseball (better competition) at a young age provide a player with a better opportunity to play college or professional baseball? I think the answer is definitely yes. While some people try to claim that what you do before age 12 doesn’t matter, I completely disagree. In general, the mechanics that you have at age 12 are basically what you are stuck with the rest of your life. You can make improvements, but any appreciable changes are incredibly hard to make once you get older. If you think changing arm action is easy, then ask Tim Tebow what he thinks about changing a throwing motion. He has worked very hard at changing his motion over the years but hasn't had much luck. Changing a baseball throwing motion would present a similar problem. Changing your swing can be even more difficult because it involves a reactionary event. My point is, if you are facing better competition on a regular basis, then you are forced to make your mechanics more efficient in an attempt to overcome failure. If this efficiency is learned at an early age, then it is more likely to be engraved in their movement patterns as they get older.
I think it was Jeff who made reference earlier in this thread about the number of kids that played with his son on good travel teams who are now playing college/pro baseball. This is similar to what I’ve seen. For the most part (key phrase), the best of the best at 12u are still the best of the best in high school. That gives some evidence that being good by 12 years old is very important to most (another key word) players’ long term development. Of course there are exceptions regarding the kids who just happened to mature early.
I think you can make a legitimate argument that American baseball would be terrible without travel baseball. American players wouldn’t play baseball on their own with the regularity of the Dominican players (for example), because they have too many other things to occupy their time now. Without travel baseball in America, this disparity of baseball “playing time” would likely be too much for natural talent to overcome for most athletes wanting to play pro baseball. You become good at what you do on a regular basis because you have to go through the trial and error processes.
Also, I don’t understand the notion that travel ball should be avoided because baseball should just be fun at young ages. That somehow implies that travel baseball isn’t fun. Contrary to popular belief, some people really do enjoy competition! It is perfectly ok to be competitive. Also, what could be more fun for a kid than to travel around playing the game he loves with some of his best friends? Most of my former players have told me that it was the best time they ever had.
For those of you who just played Little League, what was the best part in your opinion? My guess is that alot of you would say All-Stars. Think about that for a minute…
Is travel baseball absolutely necessary for a kid to become a college or professional player? Of course, the answer is no. There are always going to be exceptions.
Does playing travel baseball (better competition) at a young age provide a player with a better opportunity to play college or professional baseball? I think the answer is definitely yes. While some people try to claim that what you do before age 12 doesn’t matter, I completely disagree. In general, the mechanics that you have at age 12 are basically what you are stuck with the rest of your life. You can make improvements, but any appreciable changes are incredibly hard to make once you get older. If you think changing arm action is easy, then ask Tim Tebow what he thinks about changing a throwing motion. He has worked very hard at changing his motion over the years but hasn't had much luck. Changing a baseball throwing motion would present a similar problem. Changing your swing can be even more difficult because it involves a reactionary event. My point is, if you are facing better competition on a regular basis, then you are forced to make your mechanics more efficient in an attempt to overcome failure. If this efficiency is learned at an early age, then it is more likely to be engraved in their movement patterns as they get older.
I think it was Jeff who made reference earlier in this thread about the number of kids that played with his son on good travel teams who are now playing college/pro baseball. This is similar to what I’ve seen. For the most part (key phrase), the best of the best at 12u are still the best of the best in high school. That gives some evidence that being good by 12 years old is very important to most (another key word) players’ long term development. Of course there are exceptions regarding the kids who just happened to mature early.
I think you can make a legitimate argument that American baseball would be terrible without travel baseball. American players wouldn’t play baseball on their own with the regularity of the Dominican players (for example), because they have too many other things to occupy their time now. Without travel baseball in America, this disparity of baseball “playing time” would likely be too much for natural talent to overcome for most athletes wanting to play pro baseball. You become good at what you do on a regular basis because you have to go through the trial and error processes.
Also, I don’t understand the notion that travel ball should be avoided because baseball should just be fun at young ages. That somehow implies that travel baseball isn’t fun. Contrary to popular belief, some people really do enjoy competition! It is perfectly ok to be competitive. Also, what could be more fun for a kid than to travel around playing the game he loves with some of his best friends? Most of my former players have told me that it was the best time they ever had.
For those of you who just played Little League, what was the best part in your opinion? My guess is that alot of you would say All-Stars. Think about that for a minute…
quote:Originally posted by TravelBallCoach:
Sorry to revive this old thread, but I enjoy these discussions and wanted to give my opinion.
Is travel baseball absolutely necessary for a kid to become a college or professional player? Of course, the answer is no. There are always going to be exceptions.
Does playing travel baseball (better competition) at a young age provide a player with a better opportunity to play college or professional baseball? I think the answer is definitely yes. While some people try to claim that what you do before age 12 doesn’t matter, I completely disagree. In general, the mechanics that you have at age 12 are basically what you are stuck with the rest of your life. You can make improvements, but any appreciable changes are incredibly hard to make once you get older. If you think changing arm action is easy, then ask Tim Tebow what he thinks about changing a throwing motion. He has worked very hard at changing his motion over the years but hasn't had much luck. Changing a baseball throwing motion would present a similar problem. Changing your swing can be even more difficult because it involves a reactionary event. My point is, if you are facing better competition on a regular basis, then you are forced to make your mechanics more efficient in an attempt to overcome failure. If this efficiency is learned at an early age, then it is more likely to be engraved in their movement patterns as they get older.
I think it was Jeff who made reference earlier in this thread about the number of kids that played with his son on good travel teams who are now playing college/pro baseball. This is similar to what I’ve seen. For the most part (key phrase), the best of the best at 12u are still the best of the best in high school. That gives some evidence that being good by 12 years old is very important to most (another key word) players’ long term development. Of course there are exceptions regarding the kids who just happened to mature early.
I think you can make a legitimate argument that American baseball would be terrible without travel baseball. American players wouldn’t play baseball on their own with the regularity of the Dominican players (for example), because they have too many other things to occupy their time now. Without travel baseball in America, this disparity of baseball “playing time” would likely be too much for natural talent to overcome for most athletes wanting to play pro baseball. You become good at what you do on a regular basis because you have to go through the trial and error processes.
Also, I don’t understand the notion that travel ball should be avoided because baseball should just be fun at young ages. That somehow implies that travel baseball isn’t fun. Contrary to popular belief, some people really do enjoy competition! It is perfectly ok to be competitive. Also, what could be more fun for a kid than to travel around playing the game he loves with some of his best friends? Most of my former players have told me that it was the best time they ever had.
For those of you who just played Little League, what was the best part in your opinion? My guess is that alot of you would say All-Stars. Think about that for a minute…
As a long-time veteran of both Travel baseball (at the highest levels) and of Little League (and I have greatly enjoyed them both) and with two sons who have played D1 College Baseball, I must say this is one of the most naive posts I have ever read on this site. One day you will understand, but probably not until you experience completely unanticipated disappointment.
Trust me.