Interesting article:
How To Grow A Super-Athlete
Bum, I'm not meaning to call you out but you need to go watch some top level 9U-10U games. If you can't tell the difference between the top players and the rest you can't see baseball. We played in the 10U World Series in Alabama and there were several kids throwing 68-72 in 10U not 45 as you say. There were also kids hitting it 285+. The world is different and parents have to adapt. For the kids that are this level, LL is not an option. My middle son played on a travel team starting at 8 and his team that he played on until 15 will finish with:
1 second round pick out of high school and AFLAC player of the year.
1 two-way player at the Citadel
4 other D1 players
2 juco players
1 D2 football player
2 others that were offered scholarships and chose not to play
2 still in high school with 1 committed to UT
All of these were local kid who decided against LL because there was no challenge. I'm not downing LL but I also get frustrated with you guys who bash parents who want to see their kids challenged at younger ages. My 11 year old plays football, basketball, and baseball like his brothers did. But we also play travel baseball year round. Woudn't trade it for nothing. We have been all over the US and built relationships that will last a lifetime. My son at the Citadel will play with and against guys that he has played with and against for years. All because of travel ball.
1 second round pick out of high school and AFLAC player of the year.
1 two-way player at the Citadel
4 other D1 players
2 juco players
1 D2 football player
2 others that were offered scholarships and chose not to play
2 still in high school with 1 committed to UT
All of these were local kid who decided against LL because there was no challenge. I'm not downing LL but I also get frustrated with you guys who bash parents who want to see their kids challenged at younger ages. My 11 year old plays football, basketball, and baseball like his brothers did. But we also play travel baseball year round. Woudn't trade it for nothing. We have been all over the US and built relationships that will last a lifetime. My son at the Citadel will play with and against guys that he has played with and against for years. All because of travel ball.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Next month son will be 26, he began tball at 6. That means that he has been playing the game for almost 20 years.
I am very happy that mine got to do lots of other things when growing up. This year between spring training, season, perhaps winter ball, it will be about 10 months of bb and that means living out of a suitcase and lying your head down in a different city, quite often.
Not complaining, but just another reason why I agree that 8-10 year olds should spend more time being kids and less time on the road.
I agree 100%!So many players that are awesome at 10 aren't playing at 15. Talent rises if desire is there. JMO
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Bum, I'm not meaning to call you out but you need to go watch some top level 9U-10U games. If you can't tell the difference between the top players and the rest you can't see baseball.
You must be joking, really.
Those players you mentioned didn't get to where they did because they played elite ball as 9 and 10 years olds.
There are many, many players in "elite" college programs and in pro ball that didn't even play the game at 9,10. Some didn't even play much in HS.
I respect opinions and beliefs, however, those who strongly beleive in the premise the you will be better at 17,18,19 because you played elite ball when young is a misconception and I do not want people to think that is what players has to do.
As
I didn't say that. But many of you say it doesn't help and I would argue. TAke a look at the top drafted players this year and tell me how many played tournament ball at an early age. Every player I know that has been drafted in the past several years started tournament ball at an early age and I know many of the top draft picks.
Some of you say it doesn't help and that is a joke. How can playing top competition early with better coaching not be better for a player?
The logic you guys use is silly at times. How many players of the 1000s playing do you know that just picked up a ball at 12 and became a superstar? We are not talking the exceptions but the averages. We are talking about parents wanting to give their players the best chances for success.
TPM, how does the quote you placed and the comment you placed have anything to do with each other. Don't tell me that playing with better players, better competition, and better coaching didn't attribute to them getting to where they are. That is a joke.
Some of you say it doesn't help and that is a joke. How can playing top competition early with better coaching not be better for a player?
The logic you guys use is silly at times. How many players of the 1000s playing do you know that just picked up a ball at 12 and became a superstar? We are not talking the exceptions but the averages. We are talking about parents wanting to give their players the best chances for success.
TPM, how does the quote you placed and the comment you placed have anything to do with each other. Don't tell me that playing with better players, better competition, and better coaching didn't attribute to them getting to where they are. That is a joke.
Very good article. One thing that caught my eye is the young tennis players at the Russian facility who are not allowed to play in tournaments for their first 3 years there. Talk about emphasizing fundamentals! I know it would never fly here, but sometimes I think something like this would be a good idea for baseball. We put 7 years old on the field for 2 games a week, but only practice once or twice a week. It's no wonder most never learn good fundamentals, and as a result end up leaving the game.
Here is the quote from the article:
"If Preobrazhenskaya's approach were boiled down to one word (and it frequently was), that word would be tekhnika — technique. This is enforced by iron decree: none of her students are permitted to play in a tournament for the first three years of study. It's a notion that I don't imagine would fly with American parents, but none of the Russian parents questioned it for a second. "Technique is everything," Preobrazhenskaya told me later, smacking a table with Khrushchev-like emphasis, causing me to jump and reconsider my twinkly-grandma impression of her. "If you begin playing without technique, it is big mistake. Big, big mistake!" "
Here is the quote from the article:
"If Preobrazhenskaya's approach were boiled down to one word (and it frequently was), that word would be tekhnika — technique. This is enforced by iron decree: none of her students are permitted to play in a tournament for the first three years of study. It's a notion that I don't imagine would fly with American parents, but none of the Russian parents questioned it for a second. "Technique is everything," Preobrazhenskaya told me later, smacking a table with Khrushchev-like emphasis, causing me to jump and reconsider my twinkly-grandma impression of her. "If you begin playing without technique, it is big mistake. Big, big mistake!" "
quote:
I think the tennis idea would be great. But how well would it be perceived by many on this site if someone started a baseball school where you sent your 7 year old to live to learn how to play baseball for 24 hours a day 7 days a week. It is accepted in tennis and golf around the world. Just asking?
I agree. But the tennis facility in the article is not THAT type facility.
I think you could teach fundamentals to 7 year olds a lot more effectively with well organized, regimented practices 5 days a week, then start the games when they're 9 or so. But, it'll never happen.
Here's my favorite line from the article:
"Deliberate practice means working on technique, seeking constant critical feedback and focusing ruthlessly on improving weaknesses."
I think you could teach fundamentals to 7 year olds a lot more effectively with well organized, regimented practices 5 days a week, then start the games when they're 9 or so. But, it'll never happen.
Here's my favorite line from the article:
"Deliberate practice means working on technique, seeking constant critical feedback and focusing ruthlessly on improving weaknesses."
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I think the tennis idea would be great. But how well would it be perceived by many on this site if someone started a baseball school where you sent your 7 year old to live to learn how to play baseball for 24 hours a day 7 days a week. It is accepted in tennis and golf around the world. Just asking?
Jeff - I think that baseball for the younger ages has changed more than some people realize. You have to see these kids to get a feel for how different it is from just five years ago. I was not involved five years ago, but parents who due the ages of their boys have been continually involved, note the fairly swift change.
Of course early training helps as the article that 13LHPdad posts shows. Difficult thing in baseball is good training so shoulders and elbows are not injured at an early age.
One of the things I like about baseball is the respect for the past and tradition. Unfortunately, blind adherence to "what worked in the past" will eventually make you irrelevant. Best to apply critical thought to these decisions.
Yes, if someone on this site 'fessed up to sending their 7yr old kid to a full-time baseball academy, they would have to humbly bow before each post and would still be considered suspect by many.
There is a lot of wisdom on this site from those who have "been there, done that", and some of these are folks who will usually assume the worst when you post something about your boy.
(BTW, enjoyed seeing Matt Rice play the game.)
Of course early training helps as the article that 13LHPdad posts shows. Difficult thing in baseball is good training so shoulders and elbows are not injured at an early age.
One of the things I like about baseball is the respect for the past and tradition. Unfortunately, blind adherence to "what worked in the past" will eventually make you irrelevant. Best to apply critical thought to these decisions.
Yes, if someone on this site 'fessed up to sending their 7yr old kid to a full-time baseball academy, they would have to humbly bow before each post and would still be considered suspect by many.
There is a lot of wisdom on this site from those who have "been there, done that", and some of these are folks who will usually assume the worst when you post something about your boy.
(BTW, enjoyed seeing Matt Rice play the game.)
Well, as long as we are determining what they will be when they grow up, why not arrange their marriages, too, while we're at it?
It will be interesting to see how today's U10 travel all-stars do things, when it's time to raise their own kids.
It will be interesting to see how today's U10 travel all-stars do things, when it's time to raise their own kids.
The problem is that a 7 year old is not competent to make that kind of choice - so then what is the goal - to raise a great kid - or manufacture a professional athlete? No accident that this school is a Russian school. This site does a pretty good job of reminding all of us that the child/person is more important than the player - all the more important when talking about kids too young to make an informed choice about what they are giving up.
I hope we settle the travel ball debate in this thread. Then we can publish our findings so future parents will do what we say. 
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Bum, I'm not meaning to call you out but you need to go watch some top level 9U-10U games. If you can't tell the difference between the top players and the rest you can't see baseball.
Just as you were not calling out Bum, I will say the same of me not calling you out.
That said, I think both points of view have merit. I watched some "highly touted" kids at the tender age of 10 who were good, but did not amount to much. Some never grew, some lost their coordination in puberty, and some quite frankly never lived up to the hype their parents/coaches created. I know of several cases where the kids were expected to be great, and once the kids felt they were not living up to the expectations, they gave the game up.
Lets face it, many of the LLWS kids will not play competitive HS ball, much less be D1 players.
On the other hand I will grant you that kids are being groomed at younger ages now than ever before. If you don't get them started young like other kids, they will certainly be behind the curve. If they are exceptional then it wont matter as much because they will catch up relatively quick. However many a great player made it on hard work, determination, and for lack of a better term, being a baseball rat. The sooner those kids get involved with higher levels of play/competition, the more likely they are to succeed provided they are sound fundamentally.
As to your tennis/golf analogy, it is vastly different in that they are individual sports. Those kids must start earlier, and unfortunately are weeded out at a much earlier age. Yet for all the training, talent can still allow players to start later and still make it. If John McEnroe had worked harder at his craft he might be in the mix when discussing GOAT. Instead he was an incredible player who did not work on his craft because he was so talented. Then you take another #1 and majors winner in Jim Courier. While we had talent, he was no where near the level of J Mc. Instead he was a grinder that took fitness and practice to new levels, which was his ticket to the top.
The bottom line is that parents have many different perspectives on what is the "right way" to do things. Anything can be taken to an extreme and go from a sound strategy to overkill with disastrous results. Kids still need time to be kids, and every summer should not be all consuming with only baseball, especially at the younger age groups.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I didn't say that. But many of you say it doesn't help and I would argue. TAke a look at the top drafted players this year and tell me how many played tournament ball at an early age. Every player I know that has been drafted in the past several years started tournament ball at an early age and I know many of the top draft picks.
Some of you say it doesn't help and that is a joke. How can playing top competition early with better coaching not be better for a player?
The logic you guys use is silly at times. How many players of the 1000s playing do you know that just picked up a ball at 12 and became a superstar? We are not talking the exceptions but the averages. We are talking about parents wanting to give their players the best chances for success.
TPM, how does the quote you placed and the comment you placed have anything to do with each other. Don't tell me that playing with better players, better competition, and better coaching didn't attribute to them getting to where they are. That is a joke.
Sorry, you are SO wrong, you are using a small percentage (who your son played with) compared to entire population of 9 and 10 year olds and what they did or didn't do. Parents DO NOT have to spend lots of money on travel ball when they are very young to be successful later on, sorry.
How do you know who played what when they were 9,10, do you know what mine did when he was that age?
Do you actually know what they do in top college and professional ball, they do what 8,9 and 10 year should be doing more of, they practice, the same repitition over and over and over and over and over and over. Prove to me that a 9 or 10 year old hitting 285 will be doing the same at 17,18 with wood? Do you think that because they were studs then they will be later on..lol, no way, everyone will outgrow them.
The world has changed, parents are shlepping their young kids everywhere, playing year round, spending tons of money the many don't have, in hopes that they will be studs by the time they are in HS get a college scholarship or get drafted, and reality is that MOST will never play past HS, or college either by injury or they just decide to hang it up.
My son played "travel" ball at 9,10, they traveled to the next town for games for better competition and NOT year round, there was no need to travel out of state or even within state until later on (14,15), somehow he managed to get a good scholarship and plays proball,
so can you explain how that happened without elite travel ball?
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I hope we settle the travel ball debate in this thread. Then we can publish our findings so future parents will do what we say.
People can do what they want, but when I see someone saying they have to do this to get ahead at that age, well I don't buy into that philosophy.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
My son at the Citadel will play with and against guys that he has played with and against for years. All because of travel ball.
I don't get where that is going to make your son a better college player.
What is going to make him a better player is his talent, and how hard he works over the next few years to be a starter or move forward, what does that have to do with travel ball at 8,9?
I have consistenly said it does not have to happen but it seems some of you have a policy of bashing parents who choose to give their child the opportunity to play travel ball at an early age. It is a choice as I have said for years on here. Why is it so bad for parents to want what they think is best for their child? My youngest child plays three sports as his brothers did all the way through high school. But he plays travel baseball and has since 6. All I have said is that it is the right choice for some and those of you who did not choose it for your child should not bash the ones who do. My statement to Bum was that he did not have a clear understanding of what travel ball is for 9U in today's world. There are 10 year olds throwing 70 mph and no they may not be there when it is all said and done. But the parents are giving them the best chance they can.
I will challenge you to research this past year's first two rounds of draft picks and see how many were playing travel baseball before 12. I am willing to bet the data is there through usssa. I will be willing to bet it is 75% or higher because we played with or against most of them. That was my comment.
I will challenge you to research this past year's first two rounds of draft picks and see how many were playing travel baseball before 12. I am willing to bet the data is there through usssa. I will be willing to bet it is 75% or higher because we played with or against most of them. That was my comment.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
My son at the Citadel will play with and against guys that he has played with and against for years. All because of travel ball.
I don't get where that is going to make your son a better college player.
What is going to make him a better player is his talent, and how hard he works over the next few years to be a starter or move forward, what does that have to do with travel ball at 8,9?
My comment was that he has built RELATIONSHIPS with guys all over US because of travel ball that would not be there if he had played local. Stop trying to read an argument into everything. Just because you are opposed to travel ball at young ages you are looking for a fight. I have consistently said it is not for everyone but those who choose it should not be bashed by guys like you. Maybe you feel like you didn't give your child that opportunity or something.
A friend of mine who watches this site just sent me a great message.
"If you guys truly believe your premise that it is not needed for the future, then why do you send your kids to school? Why do you teach them anything at 7,8,9, or 10 because it will not make them better at 17,18,or 19. Just start teaching them to read and write and math at 14,15,and 16. They will be okay for college or the pros (work). That does not work in anything so why would we apply it to baseball. There are guys who have made it without the early resources but they are the exception rather than the rule. The same way there are millionaires who did not graduate from high school but they are the exception also."
You can bash me and he can read and laugh. As he does frequently.
"If you guys truly believe your premise that it is not needed for the future, then why do you send your kids to school? Why do you teach them anything at 7,8,9, or 10 because it will not make them better at 17,18,or 19. Just start teaching them to read and write and math at 14,15,and 16. They will be okay for college or the pros (work). That does not work in anything so why would we apply it to baseball. There are guys who have made it without the early resources but they are the exception rather than the rule. The same way there are millionaires who did not graduate from high school but they are the exception also."
You can bash me and he can read and laugh. As he does frequently.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Maybe you feel like you didn't give your child that opportunity or something.
You are kidding me right? FWIW, if we could go back in time, would do it all over again and NOT change a thing. Not a thing. In fact, maybe I would, maybe he would pitch even less, and as I have stated before he wouldn't take the mound at 8, but later. So you made that statement to the wrong parent.
I am not against "elite" travel ball, or tournaments, I do not see the importance of it, in the general scheme of things for 7-13 year olds. You do, but you haven't given me any reason why other than making lots of friends.
As far as things changing yes it has, and as it changes so do the amount of young players arms and shoulders that need surgery even before HS. Growth plate issues, etc. Tell me how throwing hard for 10U is a good thing? Tell me how playing the same sport 12 months out of the year is a good thing for growing boys? I am not comparing it to other sports.
The farther you go in this game the more people you get to know, no tbecause you played tball with them.
If to you that is a good reason to play national travel ball, I don't see the revelance to how it relates to a person's success later on.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
A friend of mine who watches this site just sent me a great message.
"If you guys truly believe your premise that it is not needed for the future, then why do you send your kids to school? Why do you teach them anything at 7,8,9, or 10 because it will not make them better at 17,18,or 19. Just start teaching them to read and write and math at 14,15,and 16. They will be okay for college or the pros (work). That does not work in anything so why would we apply it to baseball. There are guys who have made it without the early resources but they are the exception rather than the rule. The same way there are millionaires who did not graduate from high school but they are the exception also."
You can bash me and he can read and laugh. As he does frequently.
Who said that you had to play "elite" travel ball to learn how to play the game and be a master at what you do?
Learning to play is about repitition, practice, practice. You do not have to spend tons of money on 8,9,10 year olds to be successful later on. Your talent and ability is what moves you forward.
Do you think that Manny Rivera played "elite" travel ball, or Roy Halladay or Albert Pujols? Give me a break.
Tell your "friend" to come speak for himself.
I did not say that is why we played I said that was a benefit was the relationships. I do believe that it has helped my child and I do beleive that it is good for my 10 year old. He could go dominate LL locally but what would that help. He would keep other kids from playing because they would be scared and he would dominate. Big deal. Not why we play the game. He needs competition and practice with better players which we get. If we were in a place where the LL or rec ball was good or competitive we would do it but it is horrible here as most will tell you. NO competition.
Don't understand your hatred or jealousy or whatever it is with parents who choose to let their child play travel ball at young ages. But I reckon you have your soap box and can scream from it. What do you attribute your son's success to? Good genes or just he worked harder than others which would be a sin in your words to put that much work into something.
Don't understand your hatred or jealousy or whatever it is with parents who choose to let their child play travel ball at young ages. But I reckon you have your soap box and can scream from it. What do you attribute your son's success to? Good genes or just he worked harder than others which would be a sin in your words to put that much work into something.
There is a difference between teaching basic mechanics to a 7 or 8 year old (which we did) and implying that a child who does not play elite travel ball at a young age will be behind the curve. Basic mechanics are easier to teach when bad habits have not yet become ingrained.
Certainly there are many kids who play early travel ball that go on to baseball success - no question. However, I believe there are many who have great baseball success via other baseball avenues. As has been stated - the travel ball arena is changing rapidly. The pro players of today are not really proof of how today's 14 year olds will do because they grew up in a different era.
IMO the biggest problem is when parents of young kids are told that they MUST lay out big bucks and huge amounts of time or they are ruining any chance for their player to be a successful baseball player. Fear is an inappropriate motivator in this regard.
Certainly there are many kids who play early travel ball that go on to baseball success - no question. However, I believe there are many who have great baseball success via other baseball avenues. As has been stated - the travel ball arena is changing rapidly. The pro players of today are not really proof of how today's 14 year olds will do because they grew up in a different era.
IMO the biggest problem is when parents of young kids are told that they MUST lay out big bucks and huge amounts of time or they are ruining any chance for their player to be a successful baseball player. Fear is an inappropriate motivator in this regard.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I did not say that is why we played I said that was a benefit was the relationships. I do believe that it has helped my child and I do beleive that it is good for my 10 year old. He could go dominate LL locally but what would that help. He would keep other kids from playing because they would be scared and he would dominate. Big deal. Not why we play the game. He needs competition and practice with better players which we get. If we were in a place where the LL or rec ball was good or competitive we would do it but it is horrible here as most will tell you. NO competition.
Don't understand your hatred or jealousy or whatever it is with parents who choose to let their child play travel ball at young ages. But I reckon you have your soap box and can scream from it. What do you attribute your son's success to? Good genes or just he worked harder than others which would be a sin in your words to put that much work into something.
Jeff you just said it, you played travel ball because the kids in LL weren't good enough for your player..hate that.
Where you live I guess you have to travel all over the US to play good baseball, they don't play good ball in TN?
I don't contribute any players success to where, who they played against at 7,8,9, but rather what they made of the opportunity given to them (hard work) as they matured and yes, genes.
I said I don't care what parents like you feel about spending lots of money for 7,8,9 yo to play all over the country to "get better". That isn't how it works, there are plenty of parents who spend lots of money and those that don't and both of their players can end up in the same place. Just don't make parents of young players reading here feel that is what is important because it IS NOT.
And if it were, why aren't there more second round and AFLAC players in that group you mentioned? Don't you think that ability and talent had a lot to do with that, not traveling at 8,9,10?
Go to a game in Johnson City, look at those kids, do you think they are where they are because they played "elite" travel ball as 10U players..nah. No way.
quote:Originally posted by YesReally:
IMO the biggest problem is when parents of young kids are told that they MUST lay out big bucks and huge amounts of time or they are ruining any chance for their player to be a successful baseball player. Fear is an inappropriate motivator in this regard.
Bingo!
quote:Fear is an inappropriate motivator in this regard.
Are there really that many parents who "fear" there son will not be a successful baseball player. If so, that is scary! Do other parents "fear" their son will not become a successful scientist? Is it really that big of a deal if someone's child does not become a successful baseball player? Reminds me of another thread... What is success?
Do I think it is necessary to travel around the country playing baseball at 9 years old? Absolutely not!
Do I think there is a problem for those who choose to do it? Absolutely not!
Do I care what legal activity any parent decides to involve their child in? Absolutely not!
Do I care how much money any parent spends on any activity? Absolutely not!
Do I care what I do with my child? Absolutely!
Does anyone care how much money I waste on my child? Maybe my wife!
Actually I have mixed opinions on things like travel ball at a very young age. I do believe that kids need to experience kids things. However, I don't see it as a problem either. In some ways I suppose it can help a player develop quicker, if not better. Hopefully it doesn't turn the game into a job.
I don't see it as an arm injury issue, though others do. If the youth team is coached well, organized baseball should help as far as abuse goes. IMO Kids who have the ability to throw hard are going to throw hard. I doubt it makes a difference whether they are throwing in travel ball or rec ball.
If only Hank Aaron had played elite travel ball at 10U, then he might have hit 900 homers in the big leagues.
YesReally, you just hit the nail on the head.
When my son was coming up the people who were heavy into travel ball were constantly telling me "David NEEDS to be playing travel ball." I am sure some of these folks were well intentioned. But more times than not they were guys who NEEDED him to pitch for the team they coached (or which their son played on) to make it more competitive. I always found it a little hypocritical that many (not all) of the guys that claimed to be interested in developing players were also the ones that were so obsessed with winning. You know the type, the guy that has to bring in a "ringer" or two for a big tournament. They also tended to be the ones that got the most upset when we told them No.
I foolishly thought the pressure would end after the daddyball stage but it didn't. The HS coach, who had a financial interest in a travel team, constantly pressured son to play on his travel team during the off season. We politely declined, choosing instead to concentrate on school, a second sport, music, working out on our own, and resting his arm 3 months a year per Dr. Andrews' recommendation.
But finally, the fall of his Sophomore or Junior year (can't remember which) we caved in and agreed to play for the HS coach's fall team. We ended up playing a bunch of ****** teams at some sorry venues, including one "tournament" at a "complex" some guy built in a cow pasture outside of Johnson City.
Even after son committed to a D1 school I continued to get phone calls, now from the "premier" teams, wanting him to play with them for the summer, fall, or in some weekend tournament. We continued to decline, choosing to play Legion in the summer and take the fall off. One coach, whose teams played all over the country and have won some big PG events, told me that son NEEDED to play in order to get used to the travelling he would have to do in college. He ominously claimed that he had seen kids that had failed in college because they couldn't adjust to the travel. Another coach flat out told me "Legion ain't gonna cut it, you ask S___ (recruiting coordinator). I already had, and he had told me he didn't care where son played in summer.
Son made it to college and has had a respectable career. He has played at some incredible venues against some great teams. He has kept his grades up enough to keep his academic scholarships, and by the end of this year will be very close to completing a difficult major in 4 years. (1 course short).
Did he NEED travel ball? No. Might there have been some advantages had he played a little more? Possibly. But things turned out just fine without it.
I just want to make it clear that I am in no way anti-travel ball. I think some kids may well "need" it. Heck, it may be that MOST kids need it, I don't know. I'm not sure many kids can follow the same path we did and make it work. But I can tell you from experience that travel ball is not mandatory.
When my son was coming up the people who were heavy into travel ball were constantly telling me "David NEEDS to be playing travel ball." I am sure some of these folks were well intentioned. But more times than not they were guys who NEEDED him to pitch for the team they coached (or which their son played on) to make it more competitive. I always found it a little hypocritical that many (not all) of the guys that claimed to be interested in developing players were also the ones that were so obsessed with winning. You know the type, the guy that has to bring in a "ringer" or two for a big tournament. They also tended to be the ones that got the most upset when we told them No.
I foolishly thought the pressure would end after the daddyball stage but it didn't. The HS coach, who had a financial interest in a travel team, constantly pressured son to play on his travel team during the off season. We politely declined, choosing instead to concentrate on school, a second sport, music, working out on our own, and resting his arm 3 months a year per Dr. Andrews' recommendation.
But finally, the fall of his Sophomore or Junior year (can't remember which) we caved in and agreed to play for the HS coach's fall team. We ended up playing a bunch of ****** teams at some sorry venues, including one "tournament" at a "complex" some guy built in a cow pasture outside of Johnson City.
Even after son committed to a D1 school I continued to get phone calls, now from the "premier" teams, wanting him to play with them for the summer, fall, or in some weekend tournament. We continued to decline, choosing to play Legion in the summer and take the fall off. One coach, whose teams played all over the country and have won some big PG events, told me that son NEEDED to play in order to get used to the travelling he would have to do in college. He ominously claimed that he had seen kids that had failed in college because they couldn't adjust to the travel. Another coach flat out told me "Legion ain't gonna cut it, you ask S___ (recruiting coordinator). I already had, and he had told me he didn't care where son played in summer.
Son made it to college and has had a respectable career. He has played at some incredible venues against some great teams. He has kept his grades up enough to keep his academic scholarships, and by the end of this year will be very close to completing a difficult major in 4 years. (1 course short).
Did he NEED travel ball? No. Might there have been some advantages had he played a little more? Possibly. But things turned out just fine without it.
I just want to make it clear that I am in no way anti-travel ball. I think some kids may well "need" it. Heck, it may be that MOST kids need it, I don't know. I'm not sure many kids can follow the same path we did and make it work. But I can tell you from experience that travel ball is not mandatory.
quote:Originally posted by YesReally:
IMO the biggest problem is when parents of young kids are told that they MUST lay out big bucks and huge amounts of time or they are ruining any chance for their player to be a successful baseball player. Fear is an inappropriate motivator in this regard.
PG - I agree with most of what you say.
And yes there are those who fear their child will not be a successful "fill in the blank". You should hear some of the conversations between parents at my son's high school over the "fear" of getting a B or not getting into the top in-state school. It is often (always?) more about the parents ability to tell folks about little Johnny's GPA and the great school he attends (and they do tell) than the student's well being.
With regard to baseball - I'm not sure that the fear is that little Johnny will not be a successful baseball player - but there is parental fear that parents will be the stumbling block to future baseball success because they were unwilling or unable to support the travel team lifestyle. Parents do not want to be the reason for little Johnny's lack of success.
And yes there are those who fear their child will not be a successful "fill in the blank". You should hear some of the conversations between parents at my son's high school over the "fear" of getting a B or not getting into the top in-state school. It is often (always?) more about the parents ability to tell folks about little Johnny's GPA and the great school he attends (and they do tell) than the student's well being.
With regard to baseball - I'm not sure that the fear is that little Johnny will not be a successful baseball player - but there is parental fear that parents will be the stumbling block to future baseball success because they were unwilling or unable to support the travel team lifestyle. Parents do not want to be the reason for little Johnny's lack of success.
Wow. I never said they had to play elite. I have argued for years it is the parent's choice. Do I think it gives them an advantage? Yes. It gives them practice with good instruction, games against better competition, and experiences that they can build a future off of on the field, in relationships, and in the classroom. Is it required to make it? Never said that. I choose to give my children the best I can afford and don't feel that I and others should be bashed for it. I'm sorry you have a major problem with travel ball TPM and I do wonder why. There is something there that riles you up about parents that make that choice. IDK but I don't see why you would feel the need to bash those who want their child to play at a higher level. Again, I have never said it was required. I am the opposite. I tell parents that want to do it that they better be ready for a long road, time wise and financially.
BTW, checked on that Johnson City thing. All except one from US played travel ball at an early age. So, your premise is wrong and all of the ones from South America played at baseball schools 12 months of the year.
BTW, checked on that Johnson City thing. All except one from US played travel ball at an early age. So, your premise is wrong and all of the ones from South America played at baseball schools 12 months of the year.
I hope all these strawmen don't catch fire. 
Yes there are. But I would phrase it a little differently. There are parents that fear that their sons will get left behind sports wise (not just baseball) by their peers if they don't shell out money for travel ball (clubs, private coaching, etc.) . And there are people who prey on these fears, in all sports.
Do these same parents have the same fear that Little Timmie won't be a rocket scientist? Sadly, no. (At least not very often). As Tim Wilson would say, "It's a sorry world."
The arm abuse issues are the same for travel ball as recreational ball. I have seen some serious abuses in both (and good coaches in both). The key is, as you point out, whether the team is "coached well." Sadly, many are not, in travel and rec ball, ESPECIALLY in the younger age groups. And when a kid is trying to play both at the same time he doubles his odds that one of his coaches will be an idiot.
Do these same parents have the same fear that Little Timmie won't be a rocket scientist? Sadly, no. (At least not very often). As Tim Wilson would say, "It's a sorry world."
The arm abuse issues are the same for travel ball as recreational ball. I have seen some serious abuses in both (and good coaches in both). The key is, as you point out, whether the team is "coached well." Sadly, many are not, in travel and rec ball, ESPECIALLY in the younger age groups. And when a kid is trying to play both at the same time he doubles his odds that one of his coaches will be an idiot.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Are there really that many parents who "fear" there son will not be a successful baseball player. If so, that is scary! Do other parents "fear" their son will not become a successful scientist? Is it really that big of a deal if someone's child does not become a successful baseball player? Reminds me of another thread... What is success?
I don't see it as an arm injury issue, though others do. If the youth team is coached well, organized baseball should help as far as abuse goes. IMO Kids who have the ability to throw hard are going to throw hard. I doubt it makes a difference whether they are throwing in travel ball or rec ball.
The wisdom is strong with MTH and TPM on this issue. "Elite" travel ball for elementary-school age children is driven by parent ego and fueled by money-making organizations that cater to those egos. Anybody who thinks children 10 and under need to play year-round baseball in more competitive environments in order to make it to the collegiate or professional levels in later years are fooling themselves. Yes, the parents are free to do whatever they want or spend however much they want, but don't try to tell people on this site that's the only way to build ballplayers these days.
These young kids will do whatever their parents want them to do at that age, and you can't tell me that they're not being pushed. Once they reach their teens, they have a firmer grasp of what's more important to them and if they really want to make the leap to a higher brand of baseball. That's also the time the baseball starts to get a little more serious as the jockeying to make high school teams begins.
The original story, while a little over the top, contains some hard truths, although I would also agree with the folks who enjoyed much of the travel experience with their kids. Our experience was a mixed bag at times as far as the teams and quality of coaching, but I wouldn't trade the time spent with my son for anything. Bottom line? There's no perfect answer for everyone. You've just got to do your best to figure out what works for your player.
These young kids will do whatever their parents want them to do at that age, and you can't tell me that they're not being pushed. Once they reach their teens, they have a firmer grasp of what's more important to them and if they really want to make the leap to a higher brand of baseball. That's also the time the baseball starts to get a little more serious as the jockeying to make high school teams begins.
The original story, while a little over the top, contains some hard truths, although I would also agree with the folks who enjoyed much of the travel experience with their kids. Our experience was a mixed bag at times as far as the teams and quality of coaching, but I wouldn't trade the time spent with my son for anything. Bottom line? There's no perfect answer for everyone. You've just got to do your best to figure out what works for your player.
So is the bottom line?....
It's OK if someone wants to have their child play travel ball or a higher level of competition?
It's OK if someone wants to have their child play rec ball?
Both ways, and even other ways, have worked out well for someone.
It's OK if someone wants to have their child play travel ball or a higher level of competition?
It's OK if someone wants to have their child play rec ball?
Both ways, and even other ways, have worked out well for someone.
It seems to be in style to pick on parents who, ultimately, even in some of the worst cases, really just want what's best for their kids. This article is just the latest such shot over the bow.
Last year, ESPN writer/editor Tom Farrey wrote a book "investigating" the "pursuit" of youth champions which, while being more objective than this latest ESPN article, still looked sideways at youth "travel" sports. It did so by describing in detail the burden families undertake to get their kids to multiple practices, training sessions, and game per week, per season, and throughout the year. Ice Hockey and Basketball were the two prominent (and worst case) examples used throughout the book with very little attention paid to "elite" youth baseball.
On the one hand, I guess I understand the eyerolling over sub-12U travel baseball. I would hope the proposition that some parents might actually believe they need their kid in that game or they'll "fall behind" some mythical curve is a false one. I certainly believe the old saw that success at an early age is not a predictor of future success in baseball.
But on the other hand, youth baseball (among all the other youth sports) is close to or at a tipping point in many of our communities. The caliber of facilities, level of competition, and capacity of the coaching available in community-level baseball (Little League in particular in our community) is so far below what's available at the "travel" level, that the switch makes complete sense once the kids hit 12U or 13U. It makes sense from both a baseball development standpoint and a child development one.
In the end, whether it's a good choice (to switch to youth "travel" sports or stick with a community-based league) is up to the child and whether the child has a quality program of either kind available to him or her. Some kids really benefit from being treated like young men and approaching their game with more intent and structure. Some kids are just happy to receive the paraphernalia of travel sports (usually acquired at some expense to their parents
). And some kids really respond positively to the environment present at the more competitive (i.e. "travel" tournaments); maybe even at the 10U level.
Sorry about the sprawling opinion. I'll wrap it by saying this: if ESPN is going to keep deriding sports parents using anecdotal information on youth sports participation to support it's arguments, the WWL better look squarely in the mirror. The ESPN phenomenon is that because it absolutely influences the sporting landscape and societal attitudes about sports participation. It's regular programming (Sportscenter in particular) glorifies certain aspects of sports without respecting the whole games themselves. And as long as ESPN Sportcenter continues to feature plays of the day, webgems, and Top-10 this-and-that, parents will dream of seeing their kids featured as such and seek pathways to support that dream.
No matter how absurd or wrong-headed those pathways might be.
Last year, ESPN writer/editor Tom Farrey wrote a book "investigating" the "pursuit" of youth champions which, while being more objective than this latest ESPN article, still looked sideways at youth "travel" sports. It did so by describing in detail the burden families undertake to get their kids to multiple practices, training sessions, and game per week, per season, and throughout the year. Ice Hockey and Basketball were the two prominent (and worst case) examples used throughout the book with very little attention paid to "elite" youth baseball.
On the one hand, I guess I understand the eyerolling over sub-12U travel baseball. I would hope the proposition that some parents might actually believe they need their kid in that game or they'll "fall behind" some mythical curve is a false one. I certainly believe the old saw that success at an early age is not a predictor of future success in baseball.
But on the other hand, youth baseball (among all the other youth sports) is close to or at a tipping point in many of our communities. The caliber of facilities, level of competition, and capacity of the coaching available in community-level baseball (Little League in particular in our community) is so far below what's available at the "travel" level, that the switch makes complete sense once the kids hit 12U or 13U. It makes sense from both a baseball development standpoint and a child development one.
In the end, whether it's a good choice (to switch to youth "travel" sports or stick with a community-based league) is up to the child and whether the child has a quality program of either kind available to him or her. Some kids really benefit from being treated like young men and approaching their game with more intent and structure. Some kids are just happy to receive the paraphernalia of travel sports (usually acquired at some expense to their parents
). And some kids really respond positively to the environment present at the more competitive (i.e. "travel" tournaments); maybe even at the 10U level.Sorry about the sprawling opinion. I'll wrap it by saying this: if ESPN is going to keep deriding sports parents using anecdotal information on youth sports participation to support it's arguments, the WWL better look squarely in the mirror. The ESPN phenomenon is that because it absolutely influences the sporting landscape and societal attitudes about sports participation. It's regular programming (Sportscenter in particular) glorifies certain aspects of sports without respecting the whole games themselves. And as long as ESPN Sportcenter continues to feature plays of the day, webgems, and Top-10 this-and-that, parents will dream of seeing their kids featured as such and seek pathways to support that dream.
No matter how absurd or wrong-headed those pathways might be.
TPM. you sound like a dictator when you post, if its not you idea its not a good one.I don't have a dog in this fight but, your making Jeff sound like an idiot. We are no longer playing travel ball but, I can tell you our son knows players from all over the country. Almost all of our friends are baseball or basketball related friends.Now as I look back I am pleasently supprised at the number players on his teams or teams we played against going off to play college ball. I look back on those years as some of the best years our family has ever had. I realize you a respected old timer on ths site and you have a whole lot fellow old timers who will back you but, Jeff is entitled his opinion and I comletely agree with him.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
6. the relationships thing is a mute point. My sons have built relationships with players all over the world. My son at the Citadel has friends playing D1 and pro ball all over the place. He still has his local friends but they are not as big a deal because they can't relate to his life.
These type of comments are going to get a reaction.
I think that this is what got me going plus suggesting to Bum he needs to go and watch some "top level" 9U,10U games to learn about baseball. It (relationships) was a mute point but seems now to be very important point at this point, right. So what is important, travel ball at 8,9,10 gives you an edge or you make a lot of friends?
Do you think that matters when you are sitting in a clubhouse and 90% of your team speaks no english? I hope someday your sons get to play pro ball and you will understand that concept, that what they did at 8,9,10 means squat (my opinion).
OMG my son played tball for 2 years until 7! He might be considered a loser for sure.
Don't get me wrong guys, we had travel ball back then too, and I never said my son didn't play, it's just NOT important in the scheme of things, and as stated here (not by me but others) don't think that your son is missing out because he hasn't got friends from all over the world that he met in travel ball.
Come on now, does it really matter if you played or not at that age, or is what matters the lessons that your sons learned while playing and learning to respect and love the game. To work hard for a goal and never give up on your dream, these things have nothing to do about when you began playing, those are the things that make ball players, not throwing cb's at 9 or extensive travel across the US. That's where my opinion differs. Go ahead, just don't let others think they are missing out on soemthing when they are not.
Why should I care, been there done that, right? However, how many here get pm's from parents who have soph, juniors and because of circumstances beyond their control their sons need exposure for college, now they are unable to afford those high price travel teams, trips to Jupiter, showcases, or the very expensive camps.
Now tell me how playing elite travel ball at 8,9,10 is going to help them now?
Why not spend time helping parents figure out how to get exposure for their sons when it counts, not in grade school travel ball?
Jeff,
There have been 40 players that have played in Johnson City this season, could you direct me to the site where it gives info they played travel ball at 8,9,10?
And by the way I can give you just as many situations where players began the game late and played D1 programs (top 25) or drafted.
astro21,
Sorry, I just kind of tell it like it is, you don't have to respond.
Jeff, my son didn't play travel ball until 12. Nor did the six other kids from his last travel team who were drafted out of h.s.
Like PG said, I've got no problem if you want to do this. It's America, so go ahead! My point is it's not necessary at that age. Seriously Jeff, I am LMAO thinking you want me to go watch "Elite" 8 y.o. baseball to learn a thing or two about the game. My son played over 120 games a year, played
in tournaments and showcases all over the country and had 50 different coaches by the time he was 18. I was the definition of an over-the-top parent. But I wasn't foolish enough to do it at an age where it didn't matter.
If you've got the money and it's your thing, that's cool. But to say 8 y.o. travel ball will give a kid an advantage at 18 is borderline crazy.
Like PG said, I've got no problem if you want to do this. It's America, so go ahead! My point is it's not necessary at that age. Seriously Jeff, I am LMAO thinking you want me to go watch "Elite" 8 y.o. baseball to learn a thing or two about the game. My son played over 120 games a year, played
in tournaments and showcases all over the country and had 50 different coaches by the time he was 18. I was the definition of an over-the-top parent. But I wasn't foolish enough to do it at an age where it didn't matter.
If you've got the money and it's your thing, that's cool. But to say 8 y.o. travel ball will give a kid an advantage at 18 is borderline crazy.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I hope all these strawmen don't catch fire.
seriously!!
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
(Jeff says about his youth son):
He would keep other kids from playing because they would be scared and he would dominate.
See, this is the type of mindset that just peeves me. 7, 8, and 9 y.o. kids that "scare" other kids because they're that much better? Are you kidding? I guess my own son wouldn't have made the cut on your team because at that age he was the smallest kid on the team. (And I'm proud to say, still is!)
What about those kids you deem "not worthy" at that age? You give up on them at 8 or 9? (Wow.) Some of those kids end up shoving it up your a** when they get older. Have seen it too many times. Sorry Jeff, but tell us when your son is 18 not 10.