Ethics of College Coaches being paid by bat companies

I think that PG laid it out perfectly, its about making adjustments.

Really only the big programs get the endorsements. I do know that some coaches  use that money to better their programs.

Don't get me wrong I am 100% in favor of wood, but accusations are unfair.

I think many of the reasons have been laid out, don't you read all of the posts?

My agenda is clear. I hate metal bats. I also think that the only purpose of metal bats is to make money for coaches and bat companies. I was told (i do not know it for a fact) that lower level MiLB allow composites. Composites last longer than metal IMO. Longer equals cheaper. Plus a one year warranty.

As I look into my crystal ball, I see a problem for the new balls. If they travel farther, doesn't it mean that they go faster? It will make BBCOR closer to BESR results. More injuries to players(especially pitchers). When will they force BBCOR to  be dumbed down to lower results? Will it come to a point where wood is actually superior to metal?

What will college coaches and bat companies do then?  

The flatter seams don't effect the exit velocity of the ball off the bat.

Comebackers will not be faster.

But, on a long fly ball, the flatter seams cause less drag, allowing it to fly farther.

HIgh school and college baseball agendas are simple. Metal bats rarely break. If they do they are warrantied. It costs less to equip a team with metal bats.

High school, college and pro footballs are not the same. They have different weights and shapes.

Pro bats have to be one piece of solid wood. Period.  A college player may go through one BBCR bat in a season a pro player many, many, many, many wood bats.   Some guys leave the game if they do not have an agent or a bat endorsement which is hard to get on your own. As a pro pitcher in the national league, my son had to pay for his bat, hitters have to pay for gloves.

Teams do not give out equipment to players.

Why would they allow a composite bat if these guys need to learn how to successfully hit like major leaguers?

Do you think that if they went to wood they wouldn't take endorsements?

I am over this topic when you  have a better reason ( other than to trash coaches) I will listen!

The new balls don't come off the bat any faster. But due to flatter seams, less wind resistance helps them carry further.

"I can't speak for Doughnutman but I would reverse the question and ask what is the agenda of colleges and high school not to go to wood?  

I'm trying to think of another sport that doesn't use the same equipment as the pro's"

IMO there is way too much emphasis on College and Pro.  Only the very best of the best play past high school.  For the vast majority of kids who laced up spikes and played a game they love, High School is it. What about these kids?  Do you think the kids will get together in 20 years and brag about the shot hit to the warning track against their rival? Let that ball travel and extra 20 feet off a metal bat and it is now a game winning home run. This actually happened last year at my sons high school. It is the only home run the kid EVER hit.

    Let the pros have wood. Heck let the colleges have wood.  But slow down a little and think about the much bigger picture.  There is much more at stake here than just wood vs. metal.  There are lots and lots of memories yet to be made.  And some of them will definitely last a lifetime.

Examples of bat contracts (please note that some are multi-sport agreements):

FREE STUFF

As part of their bat endorse­ment contracts, SEC schools re­ceive free equipment and ap­parel from manufacturers. For instance, here's what Florida, the nation's No. 4 team, re­ceives from Easton every year. It's valued at $85,752.

> 110 aluminum bats

> 72 wooden bats

> 20 youth bats

> 5 fungo bats

> 50 fielding gloves

> 150 batting gloves

> 100 wristbands

> 45 equipment bags

> 45 travel bags

> 5 sets of catcher gear

> 5 sets of knee savers

> 5 sets of catcher bags

> 20 sets of helmets

> 1,500 T-shirts

> 10 batting tees

> 5 dozen Incrediballs

> 50 sunglasses.

Still?  Are you even reading any of the posts?

Nice stuff Freddy, only one coach received the money directly.  The money went into the programs. Where did the OP get the info that they are all taking money to make themselves richer. Maybe the same person with the composite bats for lower level milb?

I am with you cabbagedad, don't they read the posts?

http://www.oregonlive.com/duck..._coach_george_h.html

Does Nike overcompensate Oregon coaches as support for the local program? 150K whether they use Nike bats or not seems generous. I'd like to be paid for not wearing Nikes. But I guess I'll have to work that out with the local company, New Balance. I don't wear their stuff either.

How greedy of him to accept such an offer!

Since publication of Freddy's list, the University of Georgia has changed bat suppliers. Like UNC, they left Nike once released from their multi-sport contract.

I also have to believe that Chad Holbrook is now the beneficiary of South Carolina's bat contract.

So with that reasoning it shouldn't be an issue if my son wants to swing a wood bat during high school.

However, that is not the main reason I am given time after time when I advocate wood bats in high school. 

The reason is it will lessen productivity and the player that swings wood is selfish for not helping the team.  

Coaches want an edge, obviously, if available.  If PED's were legal I would bet that some coaches would be having their players taking them. 

I too see nothing 'unethical' about coaches being paid to use a brand of equipment.  Shoes, bats, gloves, uniforms...all fine by me.

I'd guess nearly all of us would rather watch the game with wood, but metal doesn't come close to ruining the game for me.

I am not following how using the same legal equipment as another team gives you an edge?

The main reason for using metal is the durability as stated by previous posters.

Wood is the best of course, but clearly not affordable for HS teams and many HS parents.

Even when using wood in the offseason I see a lot of players taping up the bat, I assume to help reduce the chance of it breaking.

No issues with enorsement deals, in my opinion the companies should pay more.  How many bats have been bought because a team was using them in the CWS?  I am sure thousands.

Last year Nike let EVERY school out of their bat deal, because they were underperforming and the coaches were complaining about having an unfair disadvantage... Nike gets their money's worth through exposure on uni's, gloves, shoes and other equipment still...

Does anybody have a reason to use metal bats that aren't financial reasons? Player development? Safety? Aesthetics? They look cool? Anything?

All I see are bat companies and programs/coaches making money off of the bats. And that is why I think they are unethical. (Besides the fact that I hate them. Metal bats that is.) 

"I also think that the only purpose of metal bats is to make money for coaches and bat companies"

If you think that, you are engaging in conjecture, when the actual facts are readily available to you. 

It's sometimes said that we should respect everyone's opinion.  I disagree.  When facts alone don't answer questions, when you have to apply value systems that may differ from one culture to the next or from one person to the next, then you respect the differences.  When an opinion is based purely on bias and willfully ignores factual information to the contrary, it is not worthy of respect.

The intention of those who make metal bats is to meet a demand that existed and continues to exist with or without them, and in so doing, to earn a profit.  (This being America and all.)  Let's not treat these guys like drug dealers or something.  If you want to know why metal bats are made, you have to ask why the buyers wanted them in the first place, and why they continue to want them now.

When I first started in youth baseball in the late 1960's, every Little League team was given a bag full of wood bats that in many cases were years old.  Almost all were H&B Louisville Sluggers.  They tended to have thicker handles than today's versions.  As young pitchers seldom threw very hard back then, they didn't break all that often, so they were around year to year for the most part.  But even then, they had to be replaced from time to time.

Some time in the early 1970's, H&B suffered a fire that severely depleted their stock of aging raw timber.  (You may not know this, but the bats you buy weren't trees last week.  They are aged for years.)  When supply is constricted, prices rise so that the supply is effectively rationed.  MLB teams got first pick, MiLB teams next, and before you knew it, amateur teams were scrambling to find new sources.  I remember a startup company called Hannah ended up supplying most of our youth bats.  Turns out they used timber that was not adequately cured, and they broke like balsa wood.  Youth programs and others soon found their budgets being busted by the need to (a) pay spiked prices for bats and (b) also replace them much more often.

What followed was a series of attempts to manufacture an artificial bat.  Originally, the effort was to replicate the wood bat in shape, weight and weight distribution, and impact on the ball.  We had some really clunky early model metal bats.  Who here remembers the ill-fated fiberglass bats?  They looked like they were carved from soap, and they ultimately were abandoned when it turned out they would shatter if used in cold temperatures.  (Yikes!)

Around that same time, Prince racquets were taking over tennis, so it was only natural that, freed from the limits of wood, competition led manufacturers to start engineering their metal bats with alloys designed to enhance their results.  They got stronger, whippier, and lighter all at the same time.  This is why CWS scores started getting lopsided.  That and concerns about player safety have led to repeated rounds of metal bat guidelines, then restrictions. 

Metal bats were first made because they were sorely needed.  They got more pro-offense because that was where player demand took them.  They got more pro-defense when the governing bodies stepped in to restore balance in the game and to bring a safety perspective. 

Throughout the entire 40-year period, they have consistently offered a more affordable option to use of wood.  They are the proverbial "better mousetrap" in many ways.

As for coaches taking money:  This has been going on since Jim Valvano took big-time shoe money and even well before that.  Everyone I know would like to have the ability to command high income.  Everyone I know would take income willingly offered to them in an honest business transaction.  (Some will even be dishonest to do it, but here we are dealing with a common promotional arrangement no different from seeing Justin Timberlake sell us Pepsi.)  When people start saying snarky things just because someone else is making money, I think it speaks more to envy than to anything rational.

Yes, again, dozens of reasons have been cited in this thread, including some of the ones you just used to answer your own question. 

I know, you must have accidentally blocked all of our replies.

Either that or you are using reverse psychology and trying to drum up rabid support for your newly launched metal bat company.

Midlo - enjoyed your post.

Midlo Dad,

Thanks for the well thought out reply. Interesting. Not to be to much of a contrarian, but there is not a need for them now. I understand at the lower levels. A little. But you can use a Baum or any other high end composite bat that will last well over a baseball season and is cheaper by $200. I do not work for any bat company. I just do not see any reason for metal in College besides profit and greed. Grown men should use wood. 

I understand. But Horton is getting paid for the bat deal even after Oregon opted out. Nike is based in Oregon. 

I read a couple of years ago if metal was banned the demand for wood bats given the supply would drive wood bats near the price of metal bats ... plus they break.

...that and compensating for all of the free bats that the universities will get and Doughnutman will then be spending $350 for a wood bat.

Composites gentlemen. Besides Mizuno, they rarely break.They typically last over a year with constant use. Metals last a season at the most.

We started using wood at all our events many years ago.  At that time it was new to all amateur players.  Then over the years wood bats became more popular.  Pretty much everyone in the wood bat business has contacted us to partner.  So we know quite a bit about the wood bat business from the old strictly ash bats to the newer maple bats.

When we started there was one major market for wood bats... Professional Baseball!  There were very few manufacturing wood bats.  Now days there are wood bat companies all over the place and new ones popping up all the time.

In the past there was lower demand but the prices were reasonable.  We have noticed the prices have been increasing for quality wood bats.  Surely some of that has to do with the demand. 

Point is... I can't argue the point when and if the wood replaces metal... I'm guessing the cost would go up.  And people will have no choice about what they need to buy.  Doesn't change my mind regarding using wood, but it sure is something to think about. Maybe someday that wood bat might cost as much as your favorite rocking chair.

Then again, maybe someday that special metal bat will cost as much as the car you drive.

Here is an article I found written a few years back.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/m...ll-improve-the-game/

As far as composite bats, I do believe that some coaches accused others of rolling. Here is another article I find interesting.

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/NCAA-stats.html

Anyway, pretty much explains why wood isn't used, and nothing in the article refers to coaches using one type over another due to money in their pocket.

Does that apply to Baum Bats? My son played with them in a wood bat JUCO league 10+ years ago and they lasted for several years before succumbing to the beating. (I am not affiliated with any bat manufacturers)

Doughnutman,

This thread regarding which metal bat to choose illustrates the chain of behaviors that leads to colleges being sponsored to use metal bats.

The main market for metal bats is the youth market, and players/parents want to get the "best" bat, which primarily means durable pop.  So the bat companies make these bats, and of course they compete to get each player's money.  Consequently. the bat companies decorate the bats well and employ a variety of advertising approaches, including sponsoring college baseball teams.  In effect, youth baseball players subsidize college baseball. Without the youth market, there would be no contracts with colleges regarding bats.

If/when the entire baseball world switches to wood or or other solid core bats, the perceived performance difference among bats will decrease.  Perhaps the bat companies will start marketing special "Brazilian cherrywood" bats or come up with some other mechanism to charge a premium, but more likely the subsidy to colleges will end up being lower.

I believe they will switch to wood and wood composites. the only thing holding it back is bat companies and the coaches/programs that profit. Baum bats last for years.

How long do you think it will take for the lawsuits to start rolling in from use of the new balls? I think it will take 3 pitchers to get hurt. At any level. I applaud the leagues that have already changed. They will all change once it happens. Financial penalties will change the market just like the threat of it changed the BESR market. If the coaches cared they would vote to change now. Instead it will take injured players to make a difference just like it did with BESR.

A complete lack of ethics.

This has become laughable (as if it hadn't already).

It's a well established fact that the new ball's exit velocity is identical to the current one's. In other words, it doesn't come off of the bat any faster. As others have tried to explain here, the 20-25 foot advantage when hit squarely comes from the ball's improved aerodynamics. 

This isn't opinion. It's an irrefutable fact. You can't contort those physical characteristics to make them fit your vendetta's objective.

Even a non-engineering type like me can understand this. Why can't you?

There's no evil conspiracy lurking, waiting for the next personal injury lawyer to send everyone fleeing to Baum bats and ruin the conniving meanies in the athletic department offices.

We all get it, Doughnutman. You hate metal bats, and you'll construct whatever preposterous theories you can to undermine their existence.

We need to move on to real life issues.

Thanks for finding that, I was looking.

This really has become laughable.

The discussion actually began in "College Ball Change".

Wood bats break for a reason, in pro ball you might see one or two broken bats in a game.  Not as often with lower levels.  The game is a completely different animal, most people, don't understand there are differences.

There are reasons why the composite bats aren't used in most college programs, but I think that DM is just too stubborn to admit that these points are better than his (and his endorsement of Baum Bats).

As stated a few times in that topic, you don't see as many broken bats because of different factors not found in the amateur game as one does see in the pro game.

Donutman's son is at a JUCO using a composite, not sure what the issue is.

BTW, my sons former college teammate was severly hurt with a shattered bat that pierced his chest missing his heart in a MLB game coming in from third on a play.

Professional players learn from early on about shattered bat, and the dangers they create. I do hope that before each game instruction is given, not that you see it too often in the lower levels, but it's good to be rather safe than sorry.

DM hope that your son does well and gets a chance to play proball. Also hope that he is good enough to have an agent or a big signing bonus to help pay for his bats, because on a minor leaguer salary, most can't afford it, they are not supplied by the team.

You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to argue against wood?  

What part about the exit velocity staying the same, do you not understand??  You should do your research before you start spouting off false conspiracy theories, accusations of unethical behavior, etc.  You sound like a person who has serious issues...

Don't confuse someon'es passion for a subject for a defective mental state.  You should apologize.