favoring seniors

Not uncommon and not specific to your area.

Also, your assessment has biases in it (not a criticism of you, just that we all have biases)...as does the coach.

It almost always works itself out. Try and relax and let the coach do his job. He wants to win, it will work out 9 times out of 10.

Unless the younger player has demonstrated he is the superior player I believe the upper classman has earned the right through time served to lose to the position.

My personal experience is my son as a soph demonstrated on the school fall ball team he was the superior player and started opening day. A freshman did the same. Had they not played fall ball for the school they might have not started to open the season. These two never missed a winter workout and worked their tails off. The seniors they beat out didn't make every fall ball game and winter workout.

Sometimes there's more involved in the decision making than just what parents see from the sidelines at games. Sometimes it's behind the scenes effort and attitude. When my daughter played high school softball there was a questionable starting choice from a talent point of view. The coach knew something parents didn't. The better player was marginably eligible and eventually became ineligible.

Best players should start no matter what grade....but the only vote that counts is the coaches vote..many different pov on who is better but the coaches see a lot of things that the casual observer may not see...commitment, passin, grades etc....they all come into play

I agree that the best should play regardless of grade but it's easier said than done. Rarely will you come across that young player who is just head and shoulders better than the senior. It does happen and typically it's an accepted move to play the young one due to their production but overall the gap between a senior and younger kid in terms of talent is usually not that huge.

Now you have to decide which one gives you the best opportunity to win based on that game's matchup. Maybe the older guy has a better glove and he plays because your pitcher is going to probably allow many balls in play. Play the older guy. Maybe the younger guy has a better bat and you are playing a team that has good pitching. Play the younger guy.

There has to be some loyalty to the program or you lose the older group on a fairly yearly basis. Give them a chance to play their way out of the lineup. Some people say this is the young guy paying his dues and it probably is but if the talent is fairly equal then I can see how you owe that older kid the first shot. If not and you play the younger kid then what if the talent gap isn't that huge between that younger kid when he's older and the new younger kid who's behind him? You will never reach a present day because you're always playing for the future.

Ideally you build a program where you teach the heck out of the younger guys at a JV level. They stay on JV "paying their dues" and step in to replace the older guys as they graduate.

That being said if the younger guy is obviously better then you better play him.

It's whatever the coach wants. If the coach is more comfortable running his seniors out there, that's his business. All things being equal (ie: senior and freshman show up for all practices workouts and puts the work in and assuming they''re not slackers)I'd rather have the senior play and let the freshman pay his dues. He'll get his shot. I don't trust the freshman in a big spot and rather give him playing time with his class on the freshman team and progress thru the system.

By paying their dues, they won't feel entitled to anything and will appreciate what it takes to be a varsity player when they learn and progress thru the system and they're better prepared.

Just because a freshman shows ability don't make them varsity ready mentally and/or physically.

quote:

Best players should start no matter what grade.

Common sense.

A couple of things. First, a freshman or even sophomore better be heads and tails above everyone else to even be in the discussion and even then, I thinks its the very rare kid that can handle it at the higher levels of varsity play.

Second, I think the real question is what happens if you have a junior who hopes to play at the college level who is about equivalent to a senior in his last hurrah. How do you balance that? One guys senior year vs the other guys potential that a good junior season if he is on the field may help him keep playing? That's the one I struggle with knowing my opinion on. Let's assume for the conversation they both contribute equally throughout the year and the difference is the junior if successful will play on but the seniors story is already written.
What then if you are the coach? We have a situation with a Junior who has been hitting much much better then many of the seniors who has been benched as the games progress in favor of several senior returners that the coach seems to be trying to keep in the line up. It's early, but what's the right thing to do....allow the junior to keep his bat hot and stay in the line up (the way I lean) or allow the seniors who are hundreds of BA points beneath to keep playing at the juniors expense?

Parents way underestimate the number of mental mistakes frosh/sophs make under pressure in first exposures to varsity. Seniors don't make as many. Coaches value that.

Daveccpa,
Has the team started playing games yet? Or are these just practice observations?

The team has played two games, the younger kids zero errors, the catcher had an RBI single in his only AB the others no hits.

The talent observations aren't mine only the coach actually agrees that the younger kids are better.

The nice thing about sports is that this will be settled on the field. I just really wanted to know if the situation is a regional/cultural thing or a reflection on where are society has migrated to.

When I played it didn't matter who you where if someone better came along or you weren't performing guess what your out. Same as life.

some coaches will not sit seniors--my son played for one

I beleive there are intangilbles that maybe as a parent we dont see.We have a heavy senior class at my sons college,we are 12-4 and the seniors bring so much leadership and abilities that many young players dont have yet.Working counts,having quality at bats,able to handle the everyday grind and so forth.And for many seniors they may still get to play at the next level.If the junior is that much better he will eventually win out.It s early most college programs are only 15 games in.My son is a senior so maybe I am biased,but that player has worked in the program for four years,made the academic progress,had game time experience,I believe if he has talent he should get a good look.
Some coaches abandon their seniors, I am glad ours is not.With that said our seniors are producing and leading.

I think at the HS level so many parents seem so concerned about their frosh playing varsity.The age difference alone is huge,and the aspects of being older socially are huge as well.It wont matter in the long run if your son plays varsity as a freshmen.I also think as parents we need to be careful of judging other players.This can become an issue and I have seen it at the highest leveles,even hearing it in the stands.If your son is good,he will get his time to shine.be patient and be a team supporter.This bodes well in front of your kids as well.Support each player, and cheer each of them on.Chemistry is huge,and toxic parents and players can ruin chemistry.Have fun.It will be over soon enough.

quote:

some coaches will not sit seniors

Ok let me ask this. You have a senior who is playing awful but because he is a senior he plays?

Defies logic

No seniors should be playing well and showing great leadership abilities on the field.

I have seen parents discuss every error a certain player may make,even borderline ones,and bash the kid in the stands.I think this is wrong and I dont like it.I am saying be careful in your judgements,just because your player isnt playing.Its easy to be over critical.

Play time is and should be earned.A players job is to be prepared so when his time comes he is ready.

A players job is to control only what he can control,and leave the rest alone.When players get caught up in "I should be playing over this guy" "This guy isnt any good,on and on and so forth"it does nothing to help the player or the team.My own son was benched last year as a junior,he got off to a slow start and frosh began to play over him,he still went to early optional hitting,he charted pitches in the dugout and kept himself involved and ready.When the time came for his turn to come up again,he was ready and never sat again the whole year.Sitting really can make or break a player.The mental part of battling is tough BUT it is something they must overcome.

A parents job is to support his player and the team.That is tough,especially if you percieve other players to be less skilled than your son.I am suggesting to just focus on what you can do as a player and not worry about the other stuff.

quote:

I have seen parents discuss every error a certain player may make,even borderline ones,and bash the kid in the stands.I think this is wrong and I dont like it.

It is wrong. I learned a long time ago stay away from the mumblers and grumblers. usually behind the outfield fence.

At my son's school, the 2011 kids ended up starting on varsity as sophomores. They had three years of experience at the end of their careers. The 2012 kids played two years of JV, then sat the bench in 2011. In 2012, should these kids start, or should the coach start juniors, so in 2013 he will have experience in the field? Not that he's asking my opinion, but I imagine it's something he's grappling with.

quote:

RJM said......Unless the younger player has demonstrated he is the superior player I believe the upper classman has earned the right through time served to lose to the position.

quote:

Originally posted by daveccpa:
...The talent observations aren't mine only the coach actually agrees that the younger kids are better.
...

Dave,
OK, I'll be the bad guy on this one. Sorry, something doesn't totally add up with your post. I don't know of any coach that would openly state to a parent that players A & B are "better" but then play players C & D over them regularly, at least not without some other factors involved beyond just what class they are in.
So, because of my confusion and curiosity, I checked your previous posts. Most are various other complaints about your son's HS coach. In fact, in March of 2011, you ask a grade-related "who should I play" question implying that you were the HS coach and then a month later, you are criticizing the HS coach for a variety of other offenses. Don't know what that was about. Perhaps you can explain.

In any event, my advise to you is to read both of Fanofgame's posts very carefully. If you take her direction to heart, I would bet this will make life much better for you, your son, his coaches and his teammates over the next two and a half years.

Best wishes.

Obviously college is different than high school, but University of Florida has a player starting that just enrolled in January and instead of playing his high school season is a starter on the #1 team in country. Pretty impressive considering he didn't have the fall to prove himself. Usually all other things constant, the best coaches will play what they perceive are the best players.

My previous posts where about our former coach. We have a new one whom I am actually friends with. Like I said I don't have a dog in this fight just wanted to see how others perceive the issue.

Here's my thoughts on the subject.

Assuming a senior has been on the team for one or more seasons, it's reasonable for him to have first shot at the position as it is his final year. In general this should be decided in practice/scrimmage but I've seen this play out in the first few weeks of the season. If it turns out the Jr or Soph is a better player, they will eventually get their shot. And even if the senior is a 1st year player (was cut as a jr or transferred in), I'd still expect him to have the first shot at the position.

In general, I expect the varsity to field the best 9 players for each game. Yes, there will be weaker opponents where the coach may insert backup players to get them experience. It's in his interest and the team's interest to develop the younger players as well as fielding the best nine. The JV should focus on skill development and not so much on winning.

My son's coach has this philosophy. For the most part he will field the best nine for each game, but he also tries to insert younger non-starterss when he sees fit to continue their development.

My son is a senior (2012) and is the starting first baseman. His sophomore year (1st year on varsity) he beat out the senior for the catcher's position and started every game except one. If the team built a sizeable lead, he often was replaced by the senior (usually around the 4th-5th inning) so he could get a few innings in. If it was a close game, the coach would keep him in for the entire game. The one game my son did not play was against a rather weak non-district opponent (we had 10 runned them earlier in the season). He was not happy about it until I reminded him that he has two more years and this was Brian's last year. To Brian's credit I never heard him complain. He knew he wasn't quite as good, but that never stopped him from trying to improve.

But some underclassman just don't get it. This year a sophomore who made the cut, quit after he realized he would not be a starter (1B).

All I can say is I never expected my son to start as a sophomore though I was pleased that he did.

As other posters have indicated, there's more to it than just skill a the position. There's also leadership on and off the field.

quote:

Originally posted by daveccpa:
What does everyone think about a coach favoring seniors for a spot over younger kids just because the kid is a senior. We have a new coach who feels that seniors should be given an opportunity to play varsity over younger more talented kids. Two examples from the team who aren't my kid.

2nd base freshman much better on defense. Coach wants to give a senior the shot even though the senior can't hit.

Senior catcher who didn't have a hit last year at all, decent defensively not an accurate arm. Vs two sophomore's both who coach admits are better hitters are about the same as the senior defensively.

My question is this common in other ares. I think that it just may be our corner of the earth that thinks this way. I say you play your best and let it go from there.

I don't see an issue. He's doing a nice thing for two kids who won't play after they graduate. Let the two seniors play, the freshman and the sophomores have a lot more time and can play on JV.

quote:

But some underclassman just don't get it.

It's because they were 9U studs, then 10U studs, then 11U studs ...... up to 14U studs when they enter high school. They've never been anything but the stud. All of a sudden they can't understand the eighteen year old senior who has never been the stud may be a better varsity player than a 14U stud.

It used to be kids paid their dues in LL at nine and ten because the age range was 9-12, then paid their dues again at thirteen in Babe Ruth ball because the age was 13-15. I didn't have to worry about making varsity as a freshman. 9th grade was junior high.

I'm not saying the opportunity to get reps every year is wrong. It's just for some kids (fed mentally by their parents) pre high school studdom has created an unwarranted sense of entitlement.

I told my son he would be doing fine if he started on JV as a freshman. When he was one of the last two players cut from varsity I asked if he knew why. He did. He said there were less fundamentally sound players who were just bigger and stronger than he.

Here is a twist on this topic in the form of a question or two... What does it take to earn a varsity letter; starts, innings, roster spot...? Do people still care about being a letterman? Perhaps seniors should be given a chance to earn their letter as a show of support and thanks for all their time, hard work and dedication to the program.

varsity letters are up to the coach in most cases I HAVE SEEN BENCHWARMERS GET THEM

quote:

Originally posted by calisportsfan:
A couple of things. First, a freshman or even sophomore better be heads and tails above everyone else to even be in the discussion and even then, I thinks its the very rare kid that can handle it at the higher levels of varsity play.

I disagree. To me it is number of high-level games played. The two sophmores on our team are much more baseball savvy than most of the seniors as they have played high-level select ball for many years, and played in many more games. Most of the seniors played rec. ball, legion or low-level select ball for 30-40 games a year. They do not have as much experience knowing where to go and what to do.

quote:

Originally posted by calisportsfan:
A couple of things. First, a freshman or even sophomore better be heads and tails above everyone else to even be in the discussion and even then, I thinks its the very rare kid that can handle it at the higher levels of varsity play.



I disagree. To me it is number of high-level games played. The two sophmores on our team are much more baseball savvy than most of the seniors as they have played high-level select ball for many years, and played in many more games. Most of the seniors played rec. ball, legion or low-level select ball for 30-40 games a year. They do not have as much experience knowing where to go and what to do.

I agree. In my Son's school I would say three Sophmores are the most experienced & seasond players in the school in terms of Games played at travel/ Showcase level

Just because the Juniors and Seniors should be more mentally mature than their underclass counterparts doesnt mean they are more "baseball" mature. The baseball resume means something and should be factored in to some extent. Unfortunately, coaches dont have time or inclination to really understand what the boys are doing in the select world to help understand the kids body of work and make the best roster possible.

THERE REALLY IS NO ISSUE it is the coaches team---he does what he wants

Catcher started on varsity as a Freshman; and looking back on things, he probably wasn't ready. Was he one of the best players on that team? Probably so. But was he truly varsity caliber? Probably not. His placement on that team was in large part due to the fact that so much hype preceded his arrival to what was not a very strong program.
Catcher is now a Junior and has since transferred schools. The gains that he has made in strength, size, and maturity have been amazing over just a two to three year period. Most underclassmen are not going to be ready, assuming that the program is at least somewhat mediocre. They are not yet physically or mentally mature enough to truly benefit the team. The senior (under most circumstances) is going to give you the better shot at being successful - even if his skills don't look to measure up to what you perceive to be better than that of the underclassmen.
Had you asked me this very question three years ago, I would have been in 100% agreement with the OP. My how time changes things.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

some coaches will not sit seniors

Ok let me ask this. You have a senior who is playing awful but because he is a senior he plays?

Defies logic

Perhaps seniors can play themselves out of a starting position if they're playing that bad but all things being equal, I don't see how you start a freshman over the senior just because he projects higher down the road. The freshman will get his shot.

The only way it makes sense for a freshman to play varsity is if he's a top 3 starter in the varsity rotation or is the best position player in the system and must be a top hitter. If he can't hit or is an average hitter, no way no how should he be on varsity . In either case, he better be more talented than all the upperclassman before being handed a varsity spot. Otherwise, He should be playing JV or frosh ball.

As Tx Husker posted, many parents underestimate the mental mistakes frosh and sophs make. This is very true. I've seen it first hand, and as I pointed out, gaining experience on the sub-varsity before being handed a starting varsity position will better prepare the player mentally as well as physically.

Okay guys, what about a junior versus a senior. One in his final year of playing the other hoping to mount a good year and position to play in college?

quote:

Originally posted by calisportsfan:
Okay guys, what about a junior versus a senior. One in his final year of playing the other hoping to mount a good year and position to play in college?

If the senior is good enough to be considered by a college, then it really isn't an issue. Otherwise, whoever earns the position and is the better player should be the starter. The senior should be given the first crack at the position in practice/scrimmage.

If they are pretty much equal in ability, I'd lean towards the senior. But that's just me.

quote:

Originally posted by Catcherz_Dad:
Catcher started on varsity as a Freshman; and looking back on things, he probably wasn't ready. Was he one of the best players on that team? Probably so. But was he truly varsity caliber? Probably not. His placement on that team was in large part due to the fact that so much hype preceded his arrival to what was not a very strong program.
Catcher is now a Junior and has since transferred schools. The gains that he has made in strength, size, and maturity have been amazing over just a two to three year period. Most underclassmen are not going to be ready, assuming that the program is at least somewhat mediocre. They are not yet physically or mentally mature enough to truly benefit the team. The senior (under most circumstances) is going to give you the better shot at being successful - even if his skills don't look to measure up to what you perceive to be better than that of the underclassmen.
Had you asked me this very question three years ago, I would have been in 100% agreement with the OP. My how time changes things.

Didn't a sophmore catcher hit home run to help win game against your son's team? I agree that maturity plays a part, but games played in key situations does as well.

My son plays for a small high school and started as a fresh on varsity. Even as a freshman, his exposure to high level travel ball and playing fall ball in east Cobb ,made him the most experienced kid on the team. Every player is different. Being a senior doesn't automatically translate into being bigger, stronger, more mature as has been mentioned. Coaches have a responsibility to put the best nine on the field, no matter the player's class. I disagree that the freshman needs to be heads above or the best to start on varsity. He just needs to be one of the best nine.

quote:

Originally posted by twooutdouble:
My son plays for a small high school and started as a fresh on varsity. Even as a freshman, his exposure to high level travel ball and playing fall ball in east Cobb ,made him the most experienced kid on the team. Every player is different. Being a senior doesn't automatically translate into being bigger, stronger, more mature as has been mentioned. Coaches have a responsibility to put the best nine on the field, no matter the player's class. I disagree that the freshman needs to be heads above or the best to start on varsity. He just needs to be one of the best nine.

I agree. Who is most likely to get the hit, and who is most likely to make the play. Age does not matter.

I like coaches that take the stance that the positions are the seniors' positions to lose. As long as changes are truly made as appropriate. This might not apply in some cases where there is a clear difference and the underclassman IS head and shoulders better.

folks everyone views players with diferent eyes and it is the coaches team---do not ever forget it

quote:

it is the coaches team

He is the one who makes the lineup.