favoring seniors

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
folks everyone views players with diferent eyes and it is the coaches team---do not ever forget it

Unfortunately at least in my local experience this is becoming less of the case and parents are having major influence over high school coaches' decision making. I know of a few cases where the coach has tried to stand up for himself but the parents just go to the AD and they get tired of hearing about it and get a new coach that will just go along. Pretty sad.

quote:

coach has tried to stand up for himself but the parents just go to the AD and they get tired of hearing about it

the coach stands up for himself? In lots of these cases the problem is that the administrators dont stand up for the coach. If the administrators dont have your back you probably dont want to coach there anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
folks everyone views players with diferent eyes and it is the coaches team---do not ever forget it

TR ... Don't you know how stupid coaches are? I didn't know until I came out of the dugout and sat in the stands. Sitting in the stands raised my baseball IQ fifty points. In the dugout some parents thought it was drooling idiot.

Their is one thing that everyone is disregarding and is only seen by the coach. Intangibles! If that Senior is a team leader and one of the hardest workers on the team would it make sense to start a slightly better underclassmen over him? The fact is a team is only as good as its leaders and the majority of the time this is the seniors. While an underclassman may have more baseball skills he may not be of the best interest to the team due to the leadership and other intangibles provided by the senior. Parents do not see a players attitude in practice or how much he means to the team from an intangibles standpoint. Underclassmen need to earn their spot. While you have been watching your son since T Ball the high school coach hasn't so he may not fully know his capabilities yet. If he absolutely dominates on JV and outperforms in practice the coach will see this and he will get varsity opportunities. Production in these opportunities will lead to more opportunities.

If you got hired for a job would you ask for a promotion during your first week because your past work experience may make you more qualified than those that have been working in the company for over 3 years already?

quote:

Originally posted by jakewestphal:
Their is one thing that everyone is disregarding and is only seen by the coach. Intangibles! If that Senior is a team leader and one of the hardest workers on the team would it make sense to start a slightly better underclassmen over him? The fact is a team is only as good as its leaders and the majority of the time this is the seniors. While an underclassman may have more baseball skills he may not be of the best interest to the team due to the leadership and other intangibles provided by the senior. Parents do not see a players attitude in practice or how much he means to the team from an intangibles standpoint. Underclassmen need to earn their spot. While you have been watching your son since T Ball the high school coach hasn't so he may not fully know his capabilities yet. If he absolutely dominates on JV and outperforms in practice the coach will see this and he will get varsity opportunities. Production in these opportunities will lead to more opportunities.

If you got hired for a job would you ask for a promotion during your first week because your past work experience may make you more qualified than those that have been working in the company for over 3 years already?

Great post! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Intangibles are fine to consider. But, HS coaches are there to win and biuld prgrams. It does not matter where the player played the last 4, 5, 6 years, or who he played for. What is that player doing NOW. If a player exhibits knowledge of the game, can translate said knowledge to practical application during game play, can field better and can hit better than he deserves the spot. As along as he can execute it should not matter what grade he is in. The "SR" should play because he is a "SR" is little league mentallity in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
THERE REALLY IS NO ISSUE it is the coaches team---he does what he wants

This is Gospel in any sport at any level except for a few superstars professionally. It's the coaches ball and he just let's the players borrow it. Never ever forget it.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
THERE REALLY IS NO ISSUE it is the coaches team---he does what he wants

This is Gospel in any sport at any level except for a few superstars professionally. It's the coaches ball and he just let's the players borrow it. Never ever forget it.

Yes very true of the good coaches and the bad coaches, all you can do is laugh because some these guys make no sense or reason. others turn out right in the end loss/win records indicate which is which.

Let's say you have a senior who started as a junior, let's say for arguement because it was just a down year for catchers in that program and the job fell to him. That guy's senior year, an incoming freshman catcher comes in who was the starting catcher for the USA 14u National Team. Does the senior just get the nod because he is a returning senior???

IT DEPENDS ON THE COACH

I would say it depends on how the frosh comes in and performs. He might have a great resume but he needs to confirm it during try-outs and practice. If he proves he is capable then it sounds like a good battle for starting catcher, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

quote:

Originally posted by northwest:
an incoming freshman catcher comes in who was the starting catcher for the USA 14u National Team. Does the senior just get the nod because he is a returning senior???

Who has the most experience hitting mid 80s fastballs?

I'm currently seeing a coach use a catcher that made 30 errors last year as a jr hits good and now as a sr he say he going to catch every inning and he's on a 60 error pace this year hitting good. Coach is 7 23 last two years go figure.

It's what the coach wants to do.

There's not alot of competition that I've seen in HS baseball more like appointments. Competing for positions must cause to much problems for coaches.

The freshman would have been in probably of ton more big games, situations, seen and played with the best of the best in the country and the world for 14u players.


But the senior is a senior, right? So that means he is better...

the problem is that the psrents thinkthey run the team and know more than the coach

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the problem is that the psrents thinkthey run the team and know more than the coach

Thrit

Most of the parents are supportive but it only takes one or 2 to stir the pot.

quote:

Originally posted by northwest:
The freshman would have been in probably of ton more big games, situations, seen and played with the best of the best in the country and the world for 14u players.


But the senior is a senior, right? So that means he is better...

At 14U maybe but not 18U. That's the difference. The 14U player should have to prove he's better than the senior physically and mentally if he's gonna compete for a starting varsity spot. If they're relatively equal, then the freshman goes down to JV. But as always, it depends on the coach. Whether he's a great coach or has no clue what he's doing, he calls the shots.

will

this nonsense happened in ny sons senior hs year but he had an AD that handled it well

Here is my interesting observation: Those who favor younger players getting the position tend to be parents of younger players. Those who favor seniors tend to be parents of seniors.

Having watched three sons play at a very, very competitive high school and two of them go on to D1 baseball, my view is this: Favor the senior, because despite inherent talent, the senior usually is better (even a less-talented senior).

There are limits, of course, and plenty of exceptions, but parents absolutely should stay out of this and exercise patience.

And specifically for northwest: I don't care if the incoming freshman played for the New York Yankees. It does not mean he will be better for me. What he does before high school means little to nothing except (often) a cocky attitude the needs to be knocked down more than a couple of notches and a parent who believes he knows far more than usually is the case.

2015 son just started HS ball this year. Like many parents of kids who were very successful playing high level tournament ball for years, I thought he had a great shot at making the varsity team.

Our school (400 per class) has four teams, D team (Only Fresh), C team (Mainly soph, a couple fresh), JV (soph and Jr’s), and V (9 sr’s, 6 jr’s, and a couple sophs). Last Friday and Saturday my son was asked to practice/scrimmage with the JV and V. I watched some of it and it was very eye opening. These older guys are men! With beards and big boy muscles! I guess I knew that but seeing him compete with them made me realize he is not be ready for that yet. He’s a good size kid at 6’, 175 and athletic but has barely started puberty yet. He did great at the plate and on the mound, but fielding and base running he’s not there yet. The real eye opener was he was playing third and got an avg roller. Fielded it clean, made a good throw, and the runner was a step past first by the time the ball got there – wasn’t even close. The batter was the Sr RB on the football team, but the team has a whole pile of big, fast kids.

I guess my point is he’ll be happy to play on the JV team and he can wait his turn. You can bet I will not be talking to the coach about why my son is not on varsity. I suspect that most of the kids who make V as a freshman and either very mature for their age, or go to a small school – I’m sure there are a few exceptions.

A couple things that my son shared with me after playing with the big boys last Friday:

First inning he’s playing third. Pitcher done warming up, catcher throws down, around the horn, my son flips the ball to the senior #1 pitcher and the pitcher says to him “Welcome to the big leagues, MF’r.”

Other one was his first at bat. The varsity catcher was whispering to son what the pitches were. The catcher said when he was a FR, the varsity catcher (now playing D1) did the same for him.

Special times.

quote:

Originally posted by northwest:
The freshman would have been in probably of ton more big games, situations, seen and played with the best of the best in the country and the world for 14u players.


But the senior is a senior, right? So that means he is better...

How do you know when the senior was 14, he wasnt playing with some sort of top 14U team. And the last 3 years he was playing top 15, 16, 17U ball.

Looking back on high school I believe many who have been there will agree there was a grinder you believe deserved a shot his senior year even if the younger player had a bigger future upside. As long as the senior is as good that year it's his turn. Before any parents of younger players complain about development there's summer ball. High school ball is only 20-30 games.

Bottom line for me is which one can contribute the most to the TEAM during a game.

I specifically said for the sake of this arguement that the senior DIDNT play high end travel ball. He's an AVERAGE player. The young guy is a phenom, but the senior is a returner. This isn't an actual thing, I just made this up to see what the thought was on this situation.

As far as younger parents thinking towards younger players playing, I'm a senior in HS and I'm for playing the younger guy if he's better, period.

Coaches DO favor players!

There are lots of reasons coaches have for favoring a player. Ability, attitude, work ethic, intelligence, toughness, experience, the list is endless.

It is the players job to become someone the coach favors. If it's close between two players, I can see reasons why the coach might favor the senior.

It's only hard to understand if the senior is playing ahead of your son.

That said, all coaches don't think alike and some are much better than others. The player needs to adjust because if he plays long enough he will run into lots of different coaches.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Coaches DO favor players!

There are lots of reasons coaches have for favoring a player. Ability, attitude, work ethic, intelligence, toughness, experience, the list is endless.

It is the players job to become someone the coach favors. If it's close between two players, I can see reasons why the coach might favor the senior.

It's only hard to understand if the senior is playing ahead of your son.

That said, all coaches don't think alike and some are much better than others. The player needs to adjust because if he plays long enough he will run into lots of different coaches.

Parents see their son's strength or make a checklist where their son is the overall winner. The coach may see one overriding strength in the other player that makes the decision for him.

I often see that "young" sr that started school early and has yet to turn 18. If he is a good player, we all say "Man I wish he was in the right class and had another year". The I realize he would not have gotten any more playing time as a fr/so because the coach is partial to the older kids.

IMO - The coaches should play the kids that give you the best chance of winning - regardless of age. We have all seen those very good fresh/sophs sit behind that jr/sr. Maybe they were for good reasons, maybe it was because the coach didn't know the younger kids as well as he should/could.

Sometimes you might sit one of the best players. It's not always as simple as picking out the nine most talented. I think it was Jerry Weinstein (I could be wrong) who said...

"It's not about the nine best, it's about the best nine."

I love that! Actually you could say it's simply about the best team including those not among the best nine.

Sometimes a message needs to be sent in order for the best player to reach his potential. When the best player doesn't help make the team better, how valuable is he? Sometimes for unexplained reasons pitchers throw better to the second best catcher on the team. So which catcher gives the team the best chance to win?

Everyone who has ever played has played with teammates he really enjoyed. Whether it is comfort level or just the attitude or the way that player handled things, it was more enjoyable and made you more confident. In other words he helped you and everyone else play better.

Good coaches pick up on that sometimes. I guess that is what they call "chemistry" now days.

Sometimes I wonder if the parents who are always complaining about son getting the shaft ever consider things like that. In fact... They might even be the cause of why their son doesn't fit into the team chemistry and why someone else is in the lineup.

This kind of stuff changes somewhat in the minor leagues which is a dog eat dog world to an extent. But at every other level including HS, College, and even the Major Leagues, team chemistry is a biggy!

What was your record last yr? Hard to believe a catcher is still in who cannot hit AND does not have a good arm. If he was a great catcher then leave him in and use a DH. That's definately a position that needs to have the best skilled player playing. If second baseman is not that good, then maybe he will use the other player as a sub. Do the younger players have a lot of experience on Summer league teams, or is this HS team it for them? If they can prove that have played at higher level somewhere and have maturity to get job done it would be crazy for coach to keep in less talented players. Some kids don't give much effort if they know they "have" the job due to class age.

As I said before playball2011, this is not my team. I made that up as a "situation" for conversation. The catcher on my team is a junior stud.

Seniors who have no chance at college ball and don't have the potential of the younger kids should sit. They are simply taking the time away from the kid who will use baseball to help pay for his college schooling. Yes...there are chemistry situations and times when pressure is more intense, but paying your dues is too highly rated when some of the younger kids have faced extreme baseball pressure and earned spots on teams in the past. Sitting the great player after his freshman year is more detrimental to the young, skilled player than to the senior. Sometimes there is a life lesson learned in having a senior experience the pressure. In the real world, the elder is often the one with the most pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by mifdaddy:
Seniors who have no chance at college ball and don't have the potential of the younger kids should sit.

I disagree on this one. The high school senior who has no chance to play college ball, yet is good enough to be on the high school team over others who have tried out, absolutely should experience some favoritism.

College coaches are extremely unlikely to spend much if any valuable spring time looking at high school teams. That's where Legion, Travel, camps, and showcases come in for the next 'recruiting class'. It just does not happen for high school. So that part of the argument is out for me.

Now I'm not saying a player who is markedly worse than an underclassman should play, but I do think that if the skills are close to as good, then seniors rule. For many of them its their last chance to shine on the diamond, their last chance to be part of a sports team, their last chance to bask in the glory of high school before getting even closer to the 'real world'.

Call me soft, call me sensitive, or just don't call me. That's fine. But play the seniors and make the underclassman be lightyears better before they bump out an upperclassman.

Please explain why a player with no hope of playing college ball should sit in high school? When did high school become an official training ground for college athletes? How do you determine a player capable of starting has no shot at playing college ball. My son's high school team could beat the local community college. With your attitude kids heading off to the military shouldn't play high school ball because it might affect someone's college scholarship. Afterall, he's only going off to war soon after he graduates.

I hear you, 21. We happen to have at least 1 college recruiter at every game we play and have had as many as 10 at one game.

RJM, if the kid is already enrolled at a very large college and has communicated his lack of desire to play, I'm pretty certain that they have at least nearly no desire to play. Planning to join the military and planning to hang out in a college dorm are a bit different...to me.

In high school, the possibility of playing college ball has nothing to do with the kid who is choosing not to play college ball. To believe the potential college player should be provided an advantage is pure arrogance with a capital A. It's classic travel ball arrogance with a capital A. The parents of the kid who won't be playing college ball is paying the same taxes as the potential college player. High school ball IS NOT the minor leagues for college ball.

COACH: I'm sorry son. You'll have to sit on the bench since you're going to pass on college baseball to focus on biomedical engineering at MIT. The other kid is planning to play college baseball at Timbuktu State. You have to choose between starting in high school baseball and a great college education.

There are plenty of kids walking around college campuses who could have played at other colleges. Do you realize how ridiculous you appear yet? And arrogant. If you want your son to have the best shot at college ball get him on the right summer team where there won't be any kids not as committed to college ball as your son.

Have to agree with RJM. HS sports are about playing for your school.
Glory Days

quote:

Originally posted by mifdaddy:
I hear you, 21. We happen to have at least 1 college recruiter at every game we play and have had as many as 10 at one game.

RJM, if the kid is already enrolled at a very large college and has communicated his lack of desire to play, I'm pretty certain that they have at least nearly no desire to play. Planning to join the military and planning to hang out in a college dorm are a bit different...to me.

I agree this is arrogant.
HS ball has nothing to so with college baseball. There are plenty of players found on HS teams in all sports that may have other plans for college. Most HS baseball players do not end up playing in college.
I do believe that my son sat more than he should on his HS team because it was obvious he was going to play well beyond HS, so the coach let the guys play (who were good) who would hang up the cleats after senior season was done.

With your arrogance and attitude towards young players I understand why so many parents have issues with coaches.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by mifdaddy:
if the kid is already enrolled at a very large college and has communicated his lack of desire to play, I'm pretty certain that they have at least nearly no desire to play.

What does that have to do with anything? Just because a kid has no desire to play college baseball doesn't mean he has no desire to play high school baseball. If you watched my son play, you would see why. He played the game as hard as anybody out there and was as prepared as anybody who stepped on the field. It's a big part on why he ended up a solid HS player and earned his position as a varsity starter and a key contributor on his team. He did not hit the recruiting circuit but he had the opportunity. Don't confuse one's lack of interest to play college ball with deservng to start on the varsity team. There are many good high school players who could've played at the college level but chose not to.

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Seniors who have no chance at college ball and don't have the potential of the younger kids should sit.

Arrogant..That's all you can say about that.