Finding the Right Advisor

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:

quote:

My tag should be changed to: Fungo kilt a lie on this website in 2006!

Blew a mouthful of coffee through my nose and spilt the rest on the floor.

Rolling in it ROFLMAO.............

Just the thought of coffee through the nose and rest on the floor leaves me ROFLMAO........

I miss my real Shepster, The one that would talk about the love of the Game.
The joy in his heart for finding the lord.
And the one that could help make a Ballplayer a better player, And not just a commodity.

Come back to us Shep.

SSSHHHEEEPPP
don't live us Shep

Mom didn't mean it
SSSHHHEEEPPP.

Come back.

SSSSSSHHHHHEEEEEPPPPP.

There you are shep.
Where you been?
Have you been busy this fall.
Hope all is well. EH

I'm not even going to try to understand that.
It's to deep for me. LOL
But if I try to dig, I come up with.
Bless you to??
Peace EH

I asked a question about this type of thing a little while back. So I have read this topic with great interest.

So here is our situation and our dilemna. My son is a D1 player. He is a junior. I would have guessed before this summer that he would be drafted, but mid-range. Perhaps 15th-30th round, however I admit I'm no expert. Late this summer, an adviser approached him. I was skeptical as I thought, why does he need an adviser if no real money is likely to be involved? But he committed to that adviser who showed a great deal of interest and confidence in him. Now he has had a great fall practice season and I guess others noticed because now a different adviser from a big firm also approached him knowing full well that my son already had an adviser. The big firm adviser offered his help and questioned why he went with the smaller firm adviser. The big firm adviser had plenty of chances at him much earlier, but showed no interest.

I know this is a business. But is there any value to switching from small time adviser to big time adviser? Or do you stick with the guy who had confidence in you from the start? By the way, both firms have had top-5 round picks, but the big time guy has many more. So how do we choose?

PelicanFan,
Good question. First read the post by infield dad back on the first page of this thread. He gives good advice in what to look for in an advisor but also will tell you it's not necessary to have one. I’ll give you my take on your particular situation. In regards to the first advisor there is no actual commitment or agreement between the player and any advisor. The NCAA rules prohibit this. You can use both of them simultaneously as advisors if that would help. On the large firm vs. the small firm I’m sure there are pros and cons of going either way. I think I would allow the individual person (advisor) to factor more in my decision when selecting and advisor. You asked, “Why do we need and advisor?” You really don’t NEED one but having one is not bad either. The reason all this is happening is because representing professional players is a business, and advisors are agents in disguise and the more players these “agents” have in their fold the better the odds are that one of these players will hit the big time. At this point it is a numbers game for them. As an advisor they want to develop a sense of commitment or obligation from you and your son --- (you have already confessed to that) and if they can do that then they can expect to reap the financial rewards if your son signs a pro contract. Exciting and emotional on your part --- but on their part it is pure business!
Fungo

quote:

but on their part it is pure business!

Fungo,

Excellent post, something we all need to be reminded of from time to time.

Thank you Fungo. That all makes sense to me. I also know that "committed to" was the wrong phrase. There is obviously no contract, just an intention to use if necessary.

Given that its a "business" as we agreed. Then is there a downside to switching from one to another at some point? Will my son get bad-mouthed? Should he get bad-mouthed if he did that? This is all so confusing to me since I cannot figure out if he's just been farmed by these guys or if he's rising on the charts.

One last question for now. Is there an accepted fee for these guys if my son signs? A percentage? I know what the first guy wants and it sounded a little high to me, but maybe not?

Thanks in advance.

quote:

switching from one to another

quote:

knowing full well that my son already an adviser

Since we agree this agent/advisor thing is a business, you are describing YOUR perception of the player/advisor relationship during the recruitment of your son. Don't self impose an obligation to an agent/advisor until you (your son) is sure he wants to forgo college and play pro ball. The advisor period is more of a marketing period used by agents to recruit players. Yes, you can benefit from their "free samples" during this time but you should not feel obligated to them.
PelicanFan, I know that you are not committed to an advisor so “switching” is not a problem. Switching is not even an applicable word here. Look at it like this --- Is it wrong to go out with another girl if I’m not dating anyone else? Use advisors to advise you and then if your son decides to go pro he may or may not select an agent for representation. You may select someone that is advising you to be your agent down the road or you may not. But they are two separate functions. I have never heard of a player getting a bad rap because they selected one agent over another just as Wal-Mart doesn’t get angry at you for shopping at Target. You asked if your son’s stock is rising by the increased activity of the advisors? It is a good sign to know agents want to represent him; however there are other indicators that are more reliable. What are the scouts telling you? Does PG have him ranked? Is he listed in any publications? Information about players travels throughout the baseball grapevine and a parent can pick up on some of the rumblings if they keep an open mind, read, and listen. I no longer subscribe to BA or frequent the PG website or any of the state baseball websites but I did in the past and I know there is a lot of information floating around. I spent a great deal of time trying to figure out where my son was ranked and in the end it had no bearing on anything that happened to him ----- but it was exciting for me.
Fungo

quote:

in the end it had no bearing on anything that happened to him ----- but it was exciting for me.

Somethings need to be said twice.

I appreciate your patience with me. To reiterate, my son is a junior in college, so the pro vs. college choice has already been made three years ago. I would fully support him signing after this year if appropriate. I do read publications and he does get a mention here and a mention there. But he is not mentioned in the top 50 or anything. I do believe his stock rose in the fall as some scouts did contact him and showed considerable interest. He says quite a few were at practice games too. I just don't know how to help him separate the qualities of the current two options. I know you cannot give absolute advice, but if we now assume he may be a top 10 round choice, what should he look for? That was the orginal question of this topic.

Thanks.

I'm hurt because no one has missed me.

My son was a lowly 35th rounder and Ellis with Zucker has taken an incredible amount of time advising us, as has Shep. Also, Shep doesn't talk to us without mention of the Lord. He is steady on that course.

I have another friend in the business but went with Ellis and Shep because of trust. I have now been in the trenches with them and would go to war with either one.

I believe there are others out there that are good also. I called MLB Players and there are over 300 registered agents. They will not give out the list but will tell you if someone is on it if you are being wooed by an advisor.

This thread is excellent. It is a confusing world when you have a son that is potentially a future professional player. I cannot imagine going without an advisor. My advice is get someone. Ask around. Make sure that your advisor believes in your son.

baseballpapa,
With your son being a 35th round pick, was it because of signability, or because he was 35th round talent. Did he choose school? Or did he go pro.

Why did you feel the need to have an advisor?

Just curious.

He would have been in the middle rounds but did terribly in front of about 10 cross-checkers in a playoff game.

He wants to be a pro player, not a college student. He physically is a late bloomer and is just trying to up his status.

It wasn't so much the signing bonus. I am for him going pro whenever he wants to go. The problem is the club would not have an investment in him if we signed a 35th round contract. I and his advisor believe that he will get better because he will mature. I believe the teams had him right though, I predicted the 35th round and that is where he drafted.

I think we got it right, though. This week he worked 91-93, he is 1.15-1.20 to the plate and throws nasty off-speed. He is working both in and out on the plate. At this pace he will be mid-90s and the wait will be worth it.

By the way, I teach at a University and have 3 degrees. Going to school can happen later. An education is great, but so is playing professionally. I am glad he is in college, but would have backed him signing even out of the 35th.

One more thing, Robert saw my son pitch 2 months post-op last year in high school and saw something in him even I, as a dad, didn't. He told me as my son was throwing high-80s that he would throw a lot harder. I always had him as a hitter. Even after he was drafted that low, Robert really believes he will pitch in the major leagues. I know the odds are low, but I like having an advisor that really believes in my son.

I hope to meet you and your son. Casey will probably get some mound time at FSU and it will be fun to meet both of you.

quote:

if we now assume he may be a top 10 round choice, what should he look for?

Here’s a few things to consider…

Look for lots of signability type questions. (What round do you need to go in?) The draft is nearly as much about who will sign as it is about who has the most talent. If a scout asks you what round you need to go in… Ask him "what round do you think I might go in"? If you're serious about signing... It's always about your value to the club, not how much you want. They only give you what they think you might be worth. If you want too much more than that, prepare to not be drafted in the slot you belong, if at all!

Usually when someone asks about the top 10 rounds, it is fairly safe to assume we are talking about rounds 6-10 more than the first two rounds. There is a “world” of difference between round one or two and round 10.

Especially being a college player, you might want to research the averages for each round, so you’re not shocked later on. Also look at the highs and lows in each round and check if they are college juniors, college seniors, high school, juco, etc.

High school players usually command more money in the rounds past round two. So you could assume you will be offered average to maybe a bit less than average. College seniors have even less to consider. It’s all about leverage.

In the rounds mentioned above you can expect to have your remaining college years paid for. And you should be able to get the incentive program, but it’s not a real big incentive. The bulk of it comes late when a player needs it the least and the MLB club is more sure you might help their club.

You always have the option of returning for the senior season, but seniors have very little leverage left for the draft. Often you’ll see seniors drafted in good rounds and signing for practically nothing. Might not seem fair, but that’s the way it is.

It’s all about your position… If clubs think you’re a 10th round type and you want first round money… You’re likely to go undrafted. If you want 10th round money… You might go before the 10th round and possibly get more than what you’re asking for. (If that makes any sense)

An Example!
Being independent we have the ability to ask questions that scouts don’t or can’t always ask. We used to send questionnaires to all the top draft prospects and got most of them back. One question was how much money would it take for you to definitely sign out of high school?

A few years ago a Scouting Director visiting our main office asked if he could look through those questionnaires. He went right to one specific player and smiled! The player had written $250,000. That same player was then later drafted by that scouting directors club. He was drafted in the first round and paid 2.6 million. This player was committed to a very prestigious academic school. The only question was whether or not he was signable.

The scouting director knew the player was a first round candidate. The $250,000 just told him he was signable. If the player would have put 3 million, there would have been a lot of doubt regarding that players sincere interest of signing out of high school.

By the way, that same player has already been in the Big Leagues for a couple years now. And that Scouting Director is a Vice President with another MLB club in the same state.

PG - another great post! Thanks!

Baseballpapa,
I forgot that your son was going to FSU.

Another question, if your son didn't want to be a college student, why didn't he choose to become a draft and follow, or go to JUCO.
I am not trying to put you on the spot, but your imput is helpful to many.

We heard the same thing from advisors (most), go to school and become bigger and stronger. The difference was, I guess, that my son wanted to be a college student and player before he got a chance to play pro ball. So he headed off to college.

Having an advisor who beleives in you is important, but do realize they all beleive in their future clients, or they wouldn't be looking for your business or they wouldn't be in business.

Trusting the advisor is the most important factor in making a decision on who do have advise you.

Do you need an advisor? Everyone needs advice, the advice is free! Why not go ahead and seek it. Just make sure the advice makes sense to you and if not than head in another direction. It's a personal decision.

PG jerry is not an advisor or agent and has given excellent advice. A very important part of the whole thing is saying the right things at the right time when asked. Just make sure you answer them yourself, not someone else.

FSU/Clemson is a great series, we will be in Tallahassee for that one!

Thank you everyone. PGStaff, Fungo and all the rest. Great information.

Shep,

You know I wish you the best, but I do have to ask you to re-read the Board Manners page and respect the rules about not promoting a business venture in forum posts.

I know there are other organizations like yours that either read or post here. If all of them frequently posted testimonials, it would contradict the purpose of our forums.

I don't think anyone objected to your initial post or two letting us know the good news about your new position as DOS, and you are wished the very best in that venture. But let's get back to just talking about baseball, okay?

There are 2 main reasons Casey wasn't a draft-and-follow. (1) He was going to go to Navarro to be under Skip Johnson, but Skip is now the pitching coach at Texas. (He is a genius on pitching.) (2) Casey is a draft elligible sophmore and can be drafted in June in 1 1/2 years anyway.

I also think it is very difficult on many kids to go pro. It is an extremely hard process with a lot of temptations on the road. I didn't mind him going to college for a year or two anyway to just mentally and physically mature a little more.

If he is going to be good enough to pitch in the big leagues, this will not cost him more than one year in development and probably not even a year. He is progressing to having the tools needed to go on even without signing the pro contract.

One observation. The college ranks are filled with coaches who attempt to put their "stamp" on a player. In doing this they mess with mechanics where they probably should not. There is better coaching, for the most part, in minor league ball. A kid that is going to be good should really check out a college to see how they would change or work with him. Also, the college coaches make pretty good money from camps. It is difficult to teach one way in a camp and have the little campsters watch their players do it differently in a game. It's not good for business. This should be another thread. Hope this helps someone.

quote:

posted by baseballpapa: The college ranks are filled with coaches who attempt to put their "stamp" on a player. In doing this they mess with mechanics where they probably should not.

Not sure I'd limit that group to college baseball, but I agree. Good college coaches understand the need to contribute NOW and how to add to the good things a pitcher does without subtracting.

Shepster,

This is just my opinion, but I think you should not justify the promotion of your business on here by saying that "numerous" websters have initiated contact with you. They would not have initiated it if you did not previously self-promote.

Many agents/advisors contact potential clients directly (and I'm sure yours does) rather than via free self-promotion. Several of them called my son and myself; they did not use this fabulous website for free advertisement.

Many of us have businesses who would benefit from self promotion on this site, but it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

I know Julie doesn't need my help (or anyone else's) with this matter, but I thought (again, just my opinion) that a simple "Yes ma'am" (without any justification) from you would be the perfectly appropriate response.

Grateful

You're right.

Julie,

Yes ma'am. Shep

Shep

I just sent you a personal message.

Agents {Advisors}

After 23 years of the producing our events [Area Code games] and [Goodwill Series] and
meeting many agents in Japan, Australia, Korea and China.

Actually in China when the Seattle Mariners signed the first Chinese player, I was called by the Chinese government the "unnamed agent". That is another story.

It is important to remember that an agent works for the client. The player is the employer and the AGENT is the employee, however from the 1st meeting, the agent may attempt to reverse this business relationship. Remember he is the pro.

For an amateur player, there can be no written contract until the players agrees to sign a pro contract. The parties have only a verbal contract which has a minimum binding effect.

This provides for the professional [the agent] the advantage in a business relationship.

The young player and his family
should always have is own legal representation in his dealing with a verbal or written agreement from an agent.

If we compare this situation with a real estate transaction, the agent is the broker and we have a seller [player] and buyer [pro baseball team].

In summary, the pro contract and the agent agreement is a business situation. Trust is very important and a list of questions to the agent and pro team is extremely important.

Bob Williams

Consultant,

thanks for the discussion and clarifications. My son got an e-mail from an "advisor" indicating his desire to assist him in the '08" draft.

We have no idea how he got our e-mail, much less how to respond to e-mail.

My son has been driving for less than a half a year, has way too much school ball and homework (this year and next) in his future without these kind of distractions.

Do you talk with these guys when they contact you or just ignore them? I don't want to be rude to any one, but not sure what to do next.

How do you find out what kind of potential son has in the upcoming draft? I've seen and talked to a few scouts at some camps and other events, but had no real direct discussions.

First of all, there cannot be an agreement (contract) between a college or high school player and an advisor (later hopefully to be an agent). All contracts, without paper or written, are contracts and that would be an NCAA violation. There is no legal tie between the advisor and player, loose or firm, to be in compliance with NCAA.

AL MA 08, if your son is good enough to be solicited by "advisors" and you are asking the question you did, then be proactive and search for an "advisor" you can trust. You don't, and neither do I, have the ability to look out for your son's best interests with your limited knowledge of pro baseball (and mine).

I am a lawyer, have an MBA, teach at a University, and have an advisor that I can trust. He ask me questions all the time about things I know, I ask him questions about pro ball and the business of baseball (something he knows). I don't pay him, I can walk from him anytime I want, and he can do the same. However, he has been better for my son's baseball than I have.

The advice of many that you don't need an advisor would be good if you are a scout, front-office guy on a MLB team or played pro ball. However, Drabek had an advisor and his dad won the Cy Young Award. That should tell you something.

Best wishes on finding someone that can help you through the maze. There are really good people out there that can and will assist you and your son. Find someone that you trust and let them introduce you to someone in the business that they trust. PM me if you have any questions.

AL MA 08

Your concerns are valid. At this time, please enjoy the game and your son. "It is way too early". The 2007 amateur draft is 7 months away and the results from the draft will determine the 2008 draft. The pro scouts focus on the 2007 draft. Player's abilities and tools change in the next 19 months.

A polite, "thank you, but we are not ready to discuss"will be sufficient. Also a request for their ID and their prior years of employment.

However, you should ask where they obtained your e-mail?

Bob Williams

quote:

My son has been driving for less than a half a year, has way too much school ball and homework (this year and next) in his future without these kind of distractions

Are distractions bad?---- If your son has the talent to NEED the services of an advisor he is going to have distractions whether he has an advisor or not. The role of the advisor is NOT to create a distraction but to help you understand the distractions. I remember the first day of spring baseball practice during my son’s senior year. I thought there was a meeting in the parking lot next to the baseball field. It turns out the “meeting” was 12 pro scouts there to see my son’s first baseball practice. I would venture to guess that most players would want those kinds of distractions.

This has really been an interesting thread. I do have a question again. If Shepster is such a good adviser for baseballpapa, why doesn't he have baseballpapa's phone number to call himself? Why does he need to post on here to make contact? That doesn't sound too good to me. Maybe I'm naive? Is there a rule against an adviser calling an advisee?

quote:

If Shepster is such a good adviser for baseballpapa, why doesn't he have baseballpapa's phone number to call himself? Why does he need to post on here to make contact?

That's so EVERYONE else will know that the Shepster is baseballpapa's advisor.

Actually, PelicanFan you can now change your name to PDGPelicanFanObserver...............

quote:

12 pro scouts there to see my son’s first baseball practice

quote:

Casey had twice this many scouts this week at FSU, alone.

That ain’t nothing --- I forgot to mention my 12 “scouts” were all scouting directors. There’s no telling how many area scouts and bird dogs were there.
Your turn!

Shep,

You are treading on very, very thin ice with this line of comments:

"FrankFaiola? Who is your son's advisor? That will explain your position against other firms. No Pun just business as usual. Dartmouth is a good school. Wishing your son the best."

I'm not sure what you meant by the above, but my blood starts to boil a bit when a poster on our forums gets even close to picking on one of the sons of our members. Even when the son has already "graduated" to playing pro baseball. Even when the son has something like this written about him by Baseball America last month:

"BA's Jim Callis has just listed the draft report card for the AL East. Here is what BA's Jim Callis had to say about the players drafted by the Orioles in the 2006 draft:

Best Pro Debut: The first high school position player drafted, 3B Billy Rowell (1) met every expectation by hitting .328/.415/.503. RHP Josh Faiola (24), who features a sinker/slider combo, bounced back after a subpar spring, and he posted a 0.97 ERA and 37 strikeouts in as many innings."

I don't know what you meant with your comment above to Josh's father, but it does not appear to me that you are posting in the intended spirit of this website. "No Pun just business as usual." Please, do not attempt to "do business" in the forums, and do not even come close to picking on our boys.

Julie

Shep,
For public reference my post is in no way demeaning to any organization or individual and hope that it is taken for the spirit in which it is intended.

First of all, FrankF is a friend of mine and I along with many others have been following Josh's progress for many years.
A 4 year graduate (yes 4 years) at Dartmouth, Josh was the ace of the pitching staff. Not only known for his talent as a baseball player, he has some acting credits to go along with that. His personal best is the portrayal of the legendy Sid Fynch (did I get that right), if you do not know about him, look him up.
Josh, I do beleive was drafted twice, and now is considered a bonifide Orioles prospect. I know someone who was drafted earlier than Joshby that organization, yet Josh had a better pro debut. Proving that once again, the cream rises to the top. Not too many out there have accomplished what he has. He is living the dream we all speak about over and over. It really doesn't matter how he got there, or when, he is considered a professional at this time. He also has recently recieved a very lucrative equipment contract. I think he is doing well, regardless of who has helped him along the way for such a short time. I am impressed!
I just wanted to bring you up to speed on him.

I have not seen anyone speak out against any firm. I think though, you send us confusing signals,as Director of scouting and now advisor, professional scout for a particulr firm. I do beleive, speaking to an individaul directly through posts is not what I would want for a professional advising son and I think that most would agree. I think that is the message that grateful sent to you a few pages back. I do know that if I wanted to speak to someone privately it can be done via pm's which go directly to one's email for notification if you have chosen that option. I think that was the message given above. In order to be considered a professional in any area, one must act like one. Sometimes that might mean "turning the other cheek".

My son has had an advisor for 3 years, not once has he ever mentioned anything about scouts watching or scout interest to me in any conversation. That information is given to me by son. And it's not about us, it's about him and his relationship with who is advising him. He is not MY advisor, he is sons. I think that is the way it's done or supposed to be done. I also, unless privately or in private conversation have not given information out to anyone about the firm. The way I look at it, he is giving son very good advice, but I would have no clue as to how he is as an agent. The firms record does speak for itself, however, only in private I have inquired about that to an individual whose son is represented by them. I think, in my opinion that is the way it's supposed to be done. For me, this is just me now, if I came here and saw someone endorsing the advisor who might someday be son's agent, I would have to think twice. As stated above, I hope that this post is taken for the spirit in which it is intended.

It also think it is against NCAA rules for anyone to speak on the players or parents behalf at anytime to a team by anyone who is directly involved with the business of baseball. Yes, it is done, usually before draft time and in PRIVATE. No one has to know anyone's business. And I do know that advisors/agents employ scouts for reports when they are unable to be there, but those scouts would most likely keep that info to himself or share with his potential client, to gain his trust. I would be a bit leary of someone speaking in public about who was watching son and who wasn't. But then again, that is JMO, as a parent.

I agree 100% with baseballpapa, it is about trust. Trust is about giving good advice, believing in that advice and what the professional does with that advice. The major role of the advisor should be to advise potential clients about the draft process. I am not sure it should be shared in public. I might be wrong but that is just my opinion also.

Baseballpapa has sent his son to a school where a player is highly visible to MLB teams at all times. One of the benefits of choosing to attend a top baseball program. At any given time you will find dozens of scouts, watching the progress of a potential pick, whether it be first round or last round. That is their job and not os out of the ordinary at some places.

I just wanted to clear up any confusion regarding statment that anyone has spoken negatively against a firm or indvidual. I had to come on because I felt that comments made above were intended to be negative toward a player and that player being a son of one of our HSBBW family members.

I think Bob Williams has given great advice, has been in the business for many years. He has seen and heard alot. It's those types of answers given to the queston asked that makes the HSBBW a great place.

One more thing, I know that Julie manages and now owns this site, and I know her well. I am not sure that "bosslady" is the proper way to address her, she is MNmom and deserves that respect.

Shep,

"You say I better not even come close to trying to conduct business in your forums and I respect that."

No, I said "do not even come close to picking on our boys." That is the number one rule.

The "doing business" part:

It appears to me that some members are "sniping" at you (scolding) because you are not following the posted forum rules about promoting/advertising/doing business here. I believe that if you consistently follow the rules and spirit of this website, you will not have nearly as many occasions to "turn the other cheek".

Julie

Excellent posts, ladies.......

Shep:

quote:

No harm or ill-intent intended at all, I was being serious in wishing our boys the best.

Shep I believe you.
But let me explain something that everybody can understand.

You will not see me use this site as a way of self promoting my Son are any other Baseball Product.

In Fact I do not want my Son associated with any thing that the EH might say are do that could offend anybody.

That's why I try to keep as Anonymous as possible.

I try to use this site for fun and communication with some great baseball people.
Some we all know some we have not a clue?
It's a great place for Info.
And we can all learn something if we just Listen. EH

One other thing, before I go.

In defending yourself Shep, naming any potential clients to hold up that defense, is VERY, VERY wrong and could be misunderstood for wrong intent of advising any potential clients.

I know you don't like me and that is ok, I just thought, for your own future benefit, that if you listened, really listened to what is being said here, you wouldn't have to be here defending yourself.