Florida Baseball must read

This same type of thing happened at the University of Louisville a couple of months ago. I don't remember the players name, but he played football. He was signed by another college, I don't remember which.

This is highly unethical by the coaching staff and athletic department. Just remember who did and where.

Yeah - very worrisome. I always heard that McMahon was a class act. Looks like we now have the opposite. It'll be interesting to find out Foley's reaction.

I hope this story hurts Florida's recruiting efforts. It certainly should.

It would scare me away!

Wow! There's always at least two sides to every story like this, but I can't imagine that Coach O'Sullivan's side of the story would help him out much. I don't know how he is as an on the field coach, but his interpersonal skills apparently are lacking...almost non-existent.

quote:

Originally posted by RYNO:
[
LSU THEN USF AND NOW FLORIDA WHY IS THIS PERMITTED TO HAPPEN IN BASEBALL WHEN YOU NEVER SEE IT HAPPEN IN BASKETBALL OR FOOTBALL. IN MY OPINION IT IS A DISGRACE AND SENDS THE WRONG MESSAGE.

There is a simple way to stop this from happening (like basketball and football), give the colleges coaches a few more scholarships so that they don't have to do the things that O'Sullivan had to do.

Seems to me the article was a little one sided but what do I know.

I hope Bethune Cookman plays Florida sometime during the season and that kid pitches for them. And he throws a no no against the Gators.

That is ridiculous to handle the situation the way he did.

yup, definitly seemed one sided. but who knows ?

For the time being, why not just go with there are two sides to every story.

Not picking sides here, but this story was all told from just one side. And it makes the coach sound like an idiot... Of which we are certain he's not.

When you are the coach of a state university, you will always have plenty of detractors. It comes with the job, because you can not recruit all the players whose parents think you should be recruiting their kid. This alone makes this a popular story and gives people a chance to pile on!

Note: A very important ingredient in looking at a college scholarship opportunity... Is the coach who is recruiting you likely to be there as long as you are? I would imagine that those who have been recruited to play at Florida thought that would be the case.

I hope everyone involved comes out of this on top some how. If the new coach doesn't think a player will contribute and get playing time, isn't it better for the player to find somewhere that he can continue? If it's strictly a baseball thing.

Once again, not to choose sides, and I don't believe everything written in newspapers... Kevin O'Sullivan is an outstanding coach and has a well established reputation as one of the countries very best recruiters. I believe that is why he was hired! I doubt he would have taken the job if his hands were going to be tied.

Is it fair to everyone concerned? No! but it has and does happen.

With that said PG...if anyone runs across the other side of the story would you please be so kind as to share it with us? Hearing only one side leads to a lot of head scratching.

Every coach has to make decisions that are unpopular to some. It is the way it was handle that I didn't care for. IF its true

PG,

I would agree except the Florida coach has been asked to comment, and he has declined.

If he chose to tell his side of the story, the masses would have to decide which is correct, but his "No Comment" approach so far doesn't really give anyone a choice.

JMO

.

Perhaps I missed something but the vast majority, if not all, the negative info came a single source: A coach and advocate of the first player and father of the second.

While it all may be true...at the very least it is pretty well impossible to be objective about the parties involved when it is that emotional and difficult an issue, and in the end that close to home.

Would also like to see a second viewpoint.

44
.

quote:

had his scholarship to UF rescinded days before he was scheduled to arrive on campus,

Regardless of the nitty gritty details,..this would be very disheartening to any player & to their parents.
Bottom line, the kid's not going to get to play where he thought he was headed to.
( and we all knows he's been dreaming about it! )

quote:

O'Sullivan declined to talk specifics, but through the UF sports information department, issued a press release explaining any scholarship releases were the result of numbers and nothing personal.

Numbers perhaps,....but after all that goes into finding the right fit this would be a definite blow and extremely disappointing.

Perhaps better to happen early rather than later, but still,......that's a big OUCH!!!

Sad, but true.
Unfortunately, sometimes part of the process, I suspect.

I met Sully at some length during a recruiting trip my son took to Clemson last year. While we ultimately did not choose the program with which he was affiliated, I saw nothing to suggest that he would ever sport the kind of attitude suggested here to anyone.

I'm kind of waiting for Tiger Paw Mom to chime in, as I know that she is one of Sully's biggest fans.

One thing you need to understand is that Sully cannot go public with his side of this, which puts him at a tremendous disadvantage in the media. He absolutely must keep what amount to personnel matters confidential. The best thing he can do is say nothing, let the story fade into the past, and build a reputation based on his deeds in the coming years.

But then, he doesn't have to build from scratch. You're talking about a guy who's pretty well known and respected already.

I would suggest that we may indeed be getting only the sour grapes folks' view of the world, and that we should cut the guy some slack out of recognition that we do not know the whole story and we never will.

Surely he commented to someone. It just wasn't the guy who wrote the story.

If you were coaching a big school and a reporter asked you to comment on players you were releasing... Wouldn't "no comment" be a simple way to answer? Anything else could be less than flattering about the players.

I do like this coach, but not really trying to stick up for him. It's just that there are comments he supposedly made included as an important part of that story... that he had the "No Comment" approach to.

Maybe the story will continue, but I'm not sure how it would benefit any of the players involved.

And I agree with "coach2709" It would be great if the kid throws a no hitter against the Gators. That would be great for the kid.

Good coaches do not get rid of their best players, the ones that give the team the best chance to win. Any other reason for releasing them other than that would include things better left out of newspapers.

There's always much more involved in nearly every story.

Main thing is that those kids land on their feet.

quote:

Main thing is that those kids land on their feet.

I agree.

Talk about having to be quick on their feet, able to adjust, and adapt!

Regardless if the coach was short/curt in his phone message or sweet as pie,...I can only imagine how that player & his family felt that night.

I wish them the best of luck.

BTW, We not only like Sully, we also like Bo Smith and his dad, coach Bob Smith. In fact, it was Bob Smith who first sent us a kid by the name of Andrew Miller, as well as his son Bo, a few years back.

I'm more inclined to be mad at the media than any of the others involved. They obviously are stirring the pot and once again it looks like it's working.

He is getting roasted in the press.

I don't see where an innocuous comment like, "we had an imbalance on our roster in certain positions, and with new NCAA legislation overhanging us, we were forced to make some very difficult decisions. We really like the player and would liked to have kept him."

Ultimately, though, it won't hurt his program. Big time programs like Florida can take a brief firestorm of controversy like this and move on without much of an impact.

PG is correct there are two sides to the story.
I just spoke to someone whose son played with the player at DBCC and coached by Sully. The situation was explained over the phone to the player and parents. There was never anything suggested when he was over their house (the player) that he was treated badly.

I also heard that coach (Smith) is a very nice guy. Maybe you should be angry with the press who may not be giving the correct information, as PG suggests. He does appear to have something to be angry about. I think what may be happening is that some of these coaches that funnel them into UF have lost that pipeline.

One of my son's best friends was just let go at UF in June. He was told exactly as the article states, with 44 on the roster he needed to cut down. This player had already transferred from another school and had a redshirt at UF and did not play last year. A senior, he has two years of eligibility left. It was explained that he needed to make room for incoming freshman. It was handled very professionally. My son's friend was very excited Sully was coming, and Sully recruited him to Clemson at one time. Obviously, Sully did what was best for the UF program and not because he knew this player for years. Now that would have been WRONG, IMO.

I have known Sully for years. He was my son's pitching coach at Clemson. A big part of who he is and his success is due to Sully but am not going to take this personally because I wasn't there, but in his defense, Sully is not the type that will let a HS coach come in and begin to tell him what he should do. BTW, I am sure his boss (AD) indicated that he needed to do some house cleaning. This happens often, especially in big programs.

I met Coach Mac when DK was being recruited to UF and I liked him very, very much. I will go on record now to say that my son, as well as other good pitchers in the state would definetly play for him but not play under Ross Jones. The intention of the AD was not to let Coach Mac go, but he refused to fire his assistants. According to another good friend of mine whose son played there, the program was on teh decline. We have tremendous talent here in FL but it was not being developed in that program.

If I have offended any UF parents I do apologize, but I do feel in my heart, knowing Sully, who is very charming but tough, and the staff he has hired the UF program will turn around to where it should be.

BTW, Sully is a no comment person.

quote:

Originally posted by tychco:
Big time programs like Florida can take a brief firestorm of controversy like this and move on without much of an impact.

Yeah...it's not like Florida has gone without a few controversies...








...and who can forget the original OJ controversy?

I posted this report to see which way the post would steer and I will be the first to say that I enjoy this site and the many knowledgeable contributors to it. However I think in light of the changes that are taking place within the NCAA with transfering and sitting out that prohibits a student athlete from transferring without first sitting out a year because a coach screwed up his recruiting class is ridiculous. and this nonsense that well if the player isn't what the coach thought they were going to be is an easy fix CUT HIM. When these coaches and there staff's recruited these young man and then hyped up the fact that they are now a proud member of such and such university is horse****. If you screwed up recruiting then live with it untill you fix it over time. But to be able to cut these young people and not be held accountable seems morally wrong. Now I coach so and so accept a job to take over university x and I look at the roster and well understand that it will take 3-4 maybe 5 years to correct the recruiting errors of the former staff now thats how you correct and build a foundation for success. But to be able to clean house and you can literally cut all 35 players and start over? Well am I missing something here does this not bother the rest of you. My son an 08 will commit soon to a school yet the school will commit back with a wink wink how do you tell your son that I know this is a dream come true but hold your breath.

RYNO,

Where in the article did it say he was cutting 35?

You posted the article, now own up to it.

Clean house essentially means release players who will not have an impact on the program.

Maybe he should have left them there for a year and then let them go, so they wouldhave to transfer and sit a year, did you read that part?
JMO.

RYNO, I don't have much disagreement with some of your comments. Would it be great that every scholarship is honored for 4 years? Absolutely. But they are only for one year. The concerns you express about schollies are not the way things work in Division I baseball/athletics. You also have to recognize that many players up and cut on coaches. This has been a two way street that is coming to somewhat of an end.
If that coach takes the view he needs to correct things over a 3-5 year period, he likely will be looking for a new job just about the time things are being corrected.
I have very little doubt that Coach, during the interview and hiring process, was given the word that the program was not meeting expectations, was clearly informed about the expectations, and given the authority to do what was necessary to deliver those expectations. In other words, the Florida AD made it clear what needed to be accomplished and the general timeframes involved.
Division I baseball is a business. It is using crucial revenues in an athletic program. Athletic Directors and coaches are paid for the results and the performance.
If a coach is going to be fired, he likely wants to be fired based on the recruiting and performance of players of his choosing.
It isn't pretty at times. But it is today's world in Division I baseball.
I would expect that in 2 weeks this thread will be largely forgotten. There will be hundreds of top prospects who want the scholarship to Florida. However this was handled, winning will make it be forgotten, or they will move to another coach and start over.
When I was in college, there was a basketball player who clearly was over matched. The coach gave him an opportunity to quit and give up the schollie. The player refused. During his sophomore year, that young man ran more than I could ever imagine running. He never played but he ran before, during and after every practice. Following that season, the coach got his schollie.
What happened at Fla. has been happening for years in different ways. In a sense, this way is more kind that what I observed and never forgot.

"He told Eric he no longer had a scholarship and needed to move on and find another school," said Smith, who also heard the message. "He told Eric, 'You're not good enough to play here, and don't call us back because we're very busy.'

If you have this in major college baseball, imagine what you have at the high school level.

RYNO,
One other thing, big schools in powerhouse conference don't have 5 years to make changes. Changes do take time, as explained, with 44 on the roster, room needed to be made for incoming players next year.

Clemson has a relationship with DBCC. Marquez Smith and Alan Farina who were drafted last year came from DBCC as well as another pitcher. I think the DBCC coach knows what he is looing for in a player.

To avoid further questions, O'Sullivan is bringing a player from Clemson who is a FL resident who is still having shoulder issues from surgery and is bringing another Clemson signee who also is having injury issues.

I just saw what infielddad posted, read carefully folks, college baseball is a BUSINESS.

I want to retract most of what I said earlier because I think I jumped the gun to condemn the coach. Several people on here gave compelling arguments to "wait for the other side" especially after I thought about the Duke Lacrosse Players and how they were treated initially.

I think what Ryno is saying (please correct me if I am wrong) is that he is NOT going to cut all 35 but this (and any coach) has the power / right TO cut all 35 if he CHOOSES so.

It's a touchy situation. They can say it's about numbers and it really is but those numbers have names, hopes, dreams and ambitions. This is probably why people (myself included) were quick to jump the gun. It's very bad that the kid had his scholarship recalled at the last minute - has to be heartbreaking and that is the human side of things. But if I took over a program I know I would want to be able to put "my guys" in as quickly as possible.

Obviously pro ball can do it at any time, college ball can do it at end of semesters but high school you are pretty much stuck with what you have since you cannot recruit. But regardless of what level you coach you have to have the freedom to cut players at the end of a season if they are not working out. A player's skills may not progress the way a coach wants, a player's attitude turns sour for some reason - now this kid is a cancer, or whatever reason you need for the team to get better.

I think (after some thought) this is what the coach is doing - assessing his program and making the changes he sees fit to make his program better. May not be the best business but it's what you have to do to succeed.

I still hope the kid throws a no no against Florida because there should be some poetic justice involved.

Coach2709,

If I recall, you indicated to us in a post a few months back you might get a job coaching somewhere and were coming into the program and going to "clean house".

Am I mistaken?

Thats correct the coach has the power to release his whole roster and start over. I'm not here to condemn The Florida coach he is only working within the guidelines that the NCAA has allowed the schools to work within. But when Florida's head Football coach came in was he permitted to and was he able to release all 100 players including the 85 scholarship players or was he only able to release the non scholarship players. That is the point I am trying to establish in D1 baseball we need some serious changes. Just because that is the way its been doesn't make it right. A D1 coach does not have to use all his available scholarship funds available, however if he recruits a player with a monetary package he should be required to honor it and he can tinker with the non scholarship side of the Roster.

The fact that next year if a coach cuts players the player can't transfer to continue to search for his dream without sitting out a year, doesn't that sound somewhat unfair? Again the coach recruited that player to that school and due to the coaches poor read on the young mans athletic ability the young man now has to transfer and is punished for 1 year for the coaching staffs short commings. Where is the accountability of the coach taken to task?

Cutting players at any level is unpleasant at best. With a 44 man roster and a need to change the "music", and the new roster limits, sweeping changes in Gainesville were inevitable. The news article is muchado about zilch. It's probably about 50% factual.

I noted 18 months ago here that the Gators had 7 rostered catchers,and I had no idea why. The old coaches were notorious over-recruiters. Talent seeks its own level. The two players are where they need to be and should thank Sully for cutting them while they still had a chance to hook up somewhere else.

Who can imagine any other players dad walking into the head coaches office, demanding to define his sons role on the team next year and the player NOT getting cut, then getting 100% facts from Pop? It ain't Little League.

RYNO,
Where's your caps?

You posted the article with a vengence. You changed your tune when you realized that someone knew the coach.

Read your post. The coach obviously was letting them go now so they would not have to sit out a year. If he let them go this fall or next spring they would HAVE to sit by NCAA rules. Which situation would you like your son to be in.

I do not disagree with your point. It is not right, to cut, after one makes a commitment.

There's a discussion on another board regarding players who strongly commit to schools and say they will not turn pro and then get drafted and don't come leaving coaches in a situation to go scamble looking for someone to fill their shoes.

It works both ways. Would you ever condemn that player for doing what he had to do?

You can come to your own conclusion, but I will bet you are the type of person who is the first to condemn but wouldn't turn the coach away if he called your son on the phone tomorrow morning.

quote:

Again the coach recruited that player to that school and due to the coaches poor read on the young mans athletic ability the young man now has to transfer and is punished for 1 year for the coaching staffs short commings. Where is the accountability of the coach taken to task?

RYNO, I don't know anything about the ability of any of these players other than to speculate.
But I don't think your conclusions as to why players don't succeed are very reflective of DI or college baseball at any level, for that matter.
While it is true that coaches make mistakes as talent evaluators, it is equally true that players and parents oversell themselves.
On top of that, there are plenty of players who get to college and do not do either the academic work or athletic work to succeed.
There are more than ample stories of players who played video games, gambled or partied into the late hours and missed early morning lifting and who practiced just as you might imagine.
There are plenty of players who get to college and just don't want to do the hard work, before, during and after practice to get better. There are players who just don't think they need to get better and don't do what it takes to get better.
Who knows why this coach decided these players were not at the level needed to compete at Florida. If he is mistaken on his judgements about talent, he will eventually lose his job.
But to think that players only lose schollies and/or playing time because of poor talent evaluations by a college coach very much misses what happens during those 4 years.

RYNO,
ONE MORE THING, IN MY SON'S 3 YEARS AT CLEMSON NOT ONE PLAYER WAS CUT FROM THE ROSTER.35 WAS THE ROSTER LIMIT.

SULLY HAD A DISTAIN FOR PROGRAMS THAT OVER RECRUITED AND LET KIDS SIT WHERE THEY COULD BE PLAYING SOMEWHERE ELSE.

BEING THE HEAD RECRUITER EVERY SINCE TIM CORBIN LEFT AND WITH THE PROGRAM FOR 9 YEARS, I AM SURE HE IS USING THE CLEMSON PHILOSOSPHY AS A ROLE MODEL FOR FLORIDA. HE IS DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE PROGRAM AND ALL OF THE PLAYERS.

Done now.

I don't like it.
If a Player commit's,
And the College commit's,
They should follow thru with there commitment no matter what.
Now if a player has to sit out next year because of a transfer.

Then a college should Lose part of there scholly's if they recend
on there commitment to a player??

Thats only fair right??
EH

All good points.
The 1 year rule is a big concern of mine. It makes selecting the right "fit" that much more important. As a parent there is more pressure on us to look at each potential program with a critical eye, so as not to make a mistake. Because now, there is little room for error.

TPM

From your last post it sounds like he would have cut that roster back regardless of the new Regs. Prob the right thing anyway 44???

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Coach2709,

If I recall, you indicated to us in a post a few months back you might get a job coaching somewhere and were coming into the program and going to "clean house".

Am I mistaken?

Not really - I thought I might be an assistant coach at a college but the deal fell through at the last minute.

You and I had a discussion on how to enforce rules on drinking and how severe a coach should be.

Please don't yell at me like you are Ryno....

This story will be played out all over the country where the new NCAA rules collide with programs that over recruit. This one just happened to a story because it involves one of the most visible collegiate athletic programs in the country. Mix in a dad/coach with credibility and media access and you have controversy.

Where there are upset parties, and especially parents the truth tends to rest somewhere between the middle of two stories. A coach isn't going to get into a public shoving match over a player so we'll never know exactly where the truth lies. But how often has an upset parent's version been the exact truth?

If my kids were going to be buried on a depth chart I'd want the coach to tell them before the new transfer rules go into effect.

Why did Florida have 44 players on their roster???