In states with free tuition, do in state players have an advantage since they don’t need tuition covered? Or do all in state players have an advantage? Or all irrelevant?
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Any school where there is a significantly lower in-state tuition (or free) is one where the in-state player has an advantage, all else being equal. Many private schools don't have that type of tuition structure.
It makes a huge difference and you can see it on rosters. Schools that have great in-state programs and scholarships...not just in-state tuition... (e.g. Hope scholarship in GA) have a much higher proportion of in-state players than schools that do not.
@Herewego posted:In states with free tuition, do in state players have an advantage since they don’t need tuition covered? Or do all in state players have an advantage? Or all irrelevant?
In Florida, tuition is not free but reduced. However, millions of parents use pre paid tuition to reduce costs by freezing tuition. These accounts are established when children are born.
Put that together with money from our lottery and costs become very affordable.
And as mentioned above, this does create an advantage.
@TPM posted:In Florida, tuition is not free but reduced. However, millions of parents use pre paid tuition to reduce costs by freezing tuition. These accounts are established when children are born.
Put that together with money from our lottery and costs become very affordable.
And as mentioned above, this does create an advantage.
Add in Bright Futures and college is VERY affordable in FL. Most of my friends with freshman right now are only paying upgraded dorm/living expenses.
@PTWood posted:It makes a huge difference and you can see it on rosters. Schools that have great in-state programs and scholarships...not just in-state tuition... (e.g. Hope scholarship in GA) have a much higher proportion of in-state players than schools that do not.
THIS.
Few realize it. But, it's reality. 301 D1 schools. Take out the HAs. Take out the P5s. What you have left are a lot of schools that usually roster mostly kids from their own state or from an adjacent state if there's some reciprocal agreement giving them in state rates. Anyone who thinks they have a shot at getting a roster spot at any out of state school doesn't realize how many only take kids from their own state - because it's easier to get those kids because the tuition is lower for them.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Add in Bright Futures and college is VERY affordable in FL. Most of my friends with freshman right now are only paying upgraded dorm/living expenses.
For those that don't know Bright Futures money comes from our lottery.
Here is something I've wondered about. Every year, there is at least one thread from someone whose son went to a D1 school without any baseball money, and then was cut in the fall. The response always is, you are at much higher risk of being cut if you are a "walk-on" i.e. not having an athletic scholarship.
So, what about cases where a player has a big state-sponsored scholarship like Bright Futures, or maybe need-based? Can/do coaches give the guys they really want in that pool athletic money anyway? Or are those guys in the pool of non-scholarship players?
I know that 8 can be not on athletic scholarships; but if 7 of those would actually be the very top guys, except they have non-athletic money, then that makes the status of any other non-athletic-money guys even more precarious.
I'm talking about a normal year, of course, not this pandemic stuff.
In most Florida state schools, the biggest expense is room and board. So the coach will usually give athletic money for room and board. Dont forget there are many ways to fund COA.
In states where the player earned tuition money, and not given money by the coach, is still considered a walk on. So a coach can have a full roster of guys he wants, not just to fill space.
Note that, not all players earn tuition money to cover the total tuition fee. Dont forget as I mentioned before many state players have pre pay that helps reduce costs. And there are many needs based students. This is why in state players have advantage, the coaches dollars goes a long way.
There are only 8 schools that give lottery scholarships. And for in state private institutions, the lottery money doesnt go very far due to COA.
Free tuition? I thought Biden didn't take office until next January 
Ruh Roh Raggy
@stranded1 posted:Not shocked a worthless chode like you would like Moscow Mitch. Tell us how good your kids were 20 years ago again.
Pretty sad that people like you don't think tuition costs aren't way out of line with reality. The country would be better if we didn't try to rip young people off financially before they can even get started. But that's America and why we're doing so gosh-darn great!
I'm definitely leaning liberal (think free tuition is great too) and I'm not a trump fan at all but I think this is uncalled for in this forum.
Well that derailed quickly. Let’s stay the course shall we? The sandbox is small.
So let me ask for all things NOT equal would a lesser player in state have advantage?
Sorry my post apparently stirred some emotions. My comment was meant to be in jest! Anyhoo please disregard and hopefully the thread won't be hijacked further or devolve further into socio-political arguments. Yours in baseball, Qdawg
@Herewego posted:Well that derailed quickly. Let’s stay the course shall we? The sandbox is small.
So let me ask for all things NOT equal would a lesser player in state have advantage?
Most in state players have an advantage over an out of state unless that guy is a stud and looking to play at a top 25 program. I am not sure what is meant by a lessor player, but here in Florida a BF recipient can use their money, at JUCO, D1, and D2.
I am sorry that your topic got derailed. Some folks come here to ask questions and to learn, others just come here to cause disruption, showing no respect for others.
this seems as likely a place as any to post this follow up. What if my son's tuition isn't (too much of) an issue? thanks to some planning and generous grandparents, my son's college fund will take care of tuition worries for the most part. we still want to get some sort of offer from the school so that we have a commitment coming from their end, right?
@mattys posted:this seems as likely a place as any to post this follow up. What if my son's tuition isn't (too much of) an issue? thanks to some planning and generous grandparents, my son's college fund will take care of tuition worries for the most part. we still want to get some sort of offer from the school so that we have a commitment coming from their end, right?
That would be between the coach and your son and where he is headed, and how much he wants your son to wear his teams uniform. No problem with asking for the minimum, if the school fully funds.
@mattys posted:this seems as likely a place as any to post this follow up. What if my son's tuition isn't (too much of) an issue? thanks to some planning and generous grandparents, my son's college fund will take care of tuition worries for the most part. we still want to get some sort of offer from the school so that we have a commitment coming from their end, right?
The baseball program isn’t really invested in your son if they aren’t offering some sort of athletic money. It matters more some places than others. So at any school you are considering that would be part of your vetting process.
@stranded1 posted:Not shocked a worthless chode like you would like Moscow Mitch. Tell us how good your kids were 20 years ago again.
Pretty sad that people like you don't think tuition costs aren't way out of line with reality. The country would be better if we didn't try to rip young people off financially before they can even get started. But that's America and why we're doing so gosh-darn great!
I’m not a fan of politicians. I don’t worship politicians. I’ve never partied because the person I voted for won. I’m responsible for my success and happiness, not a politician.
No one gets ripped off going to college. Students have free will to select their educational avenue. And/or parents can be responsible and save for college. Our family didn’t find college to be a financial strain at all for four degrees for two kids,
Government is not your mommy and daddy.
@mattys posted:this seems as likely a place as any to post this follow up. What if my son's tuition isn't (too much of) an issue? thanks to some planning and generous grandparents, my son's college fund will take care of tuition worries for the most part. we still want to get some sort of offer from the school so that we have a commitment coming from their end, right?
The value a baseball coach/school has for your son is expressed in the amount of the scholarship they offer, relative to the other recruits/players on the team.
@RJM posted:I’m not a fan of politicians. I don’t worship politicians. I’ve never partied because the person I voted for won. I’m responsible for my success and happiness, not a politician.
No one gets ripped off going to college. Students have free will to select their educational avenue. And/or parents can be responsible and save for college. Our family didn’t find college to be a financial strain at all for four degrees for two kids,
Government is not your mommy and daddy.
I definitely can understand that take and that everyone is responsible for himself and I also understand it sucks for the parents who worked their ass off to send their kids to college if the next generation gets it paid for but while I agree your accomplishment should matter should it really matter how willing or able your parents are to pay for college?
It is my fault if I'm lazy but it isn't my fault if my parents are lazy, poor, not interested in education, criminal or whatever.
Imo free college is not about handing success for free, it is about an equal starting chance, after college it is still your responsibility to use that chance.
I saw free tuition and instinctively jumped in here...felt like I got click baited.
Florida HS players also have carryover of Advanced Placement courses (AP), which reduces college costs for parents.
@Go44dad posted:The value a baseball coach/school has for your son is expressed in the amount of the scholarship they offer, relative to the other recruits/players on the team.
Good point. But for some reason, we always assume that the player is D1.
What advice would you give to a parent or player who is being recruited at a D3. Since there is no athletic money, how is the value expressed?
I will agree that it money given is value from the team but the great aspect of that comment is "in regards to what everyone else is getting." Some just don't give anybody much. My middle son got a great amount in regards to everyone else which showed him the value from the team. I don't know that you can gauge anything in D3 because the money normally depends on need and grades not athletic ability. Some of them have the ability and reputation to "guarantee" a spot and others are walk-ons. You have to do your research as to how well they hold to it. Some just use those words and others hold to those words.
On another note, free tuition, which is one of the things that the president-elect and group is proposing I have mixed feelings about. Not trying to kill this thread but if it becomes reality there are those who truly use it the right way and there are those who will not. I think reduced (don't ever see free tuition) tuition should be tied to grades. You should have to make a certain grade in every class you register for to receive it. If you drop a class or do bad in a class, you would have to pay for that class maybe with pre-paid money or pre-signed loans. This way the system is not completely abused. I do think it would get some kids in college that cannot afford it but it will also help a lot of athletes go to their dream school and play ball that cannot afford it even with loans. Money kept my middle son from going to the school he wanted to go to. I just don't see where all of this free stuff is coming from when we are already in trillions of dollars of debt as a nation. Truly not trying to get in a political debate. I see the helping part just don't see the reality part.
@Herewego posted:In states with free tuition, do in state players have an advantage since they don’t need tuition covered? Or do all in state players have an advantage? Or all irrelevant?
Seems like this topic has now gotten into the ability to pay for college vs. the ability not to. I understand that you were looking for info regarding in state players having an advantage, and the answer is yes, in most instances because in state tuition is less than out of state. Once your son/ daughter becomes 18, they can take up legal residence. That option could be explored.
A college education should be available to everyone who wants to attend college, not just the ability to pay. I think that the goal should be to walk away with a small amount of debt, there are ways to achieve that goal. That's where sports or other activities come into the equation. For most, academic $$ provides more of an opportunity than baseball $$.
For them to take up legal residence in most states, you have to prove that they are there for something other than college. You have to document that a job brought them there and not college. In the Southeast you have the ability to go to certain other states and take certain majors and get in-state tuition. Son lives in South Carolina and yet is an in-state student at University of Tennessee. Receives in-state tuition but does not get in-state scholarships availability. We own property in Tennessee but he would have had to have lived there for 6 months before entering UT to be considered an in-state student in reality and would still not get most in-state scholarships because he would not have graduated from an in-state high school.
@TPM posted:What advice would you give to a parent or player who is being recruited at a D3. Since there is no athletic money, how is the value expressed?
There are different kinds of D3 situations.
At schools with an acceptance rate of 20% or less, when a coach says that he will support your application with admissions (slot, tip, recommendation, whatever), that is a good sign that he really wants you on the team. If he says, "I can't help with admissions, but if you get in you are on the team," it's like being a walk-on at a D1, you have a shot, but there will be the slotted guys ahead of you.
At schools with a more expansive acceptance rate, if your test scores/grades are below the school's average, and the coach says he will support your application with admissions, that is a good sign that the coach really wants you. But that doesn't help if your grades are good enough to get in anyway. If he helps you find academic money, that could be a good sign. If he stays in touch with you, talks to you, shows enthusiasm for your game, until you put down the deposit, that's a good sign. But, all of this is reading tea leaves.
Since D3s can have unlimited rosters, those coaches can be more vague to players, since they can sort it out once they arrive on campus. Ultimately, it's about how hard you work when you get there, anyway.
In Europe, where most college education is free or heavily subsidized, many things are different. Universities tend to be in cities, students often live at home, there may be no such thing as the "college campus experience." Many take 6+ years to finish their degrees. On the other hand, all high-school students know that they have the possibility to attend college if they want.
A strength of the American system is that there is so much variety. You can already get a nearly-free college degree, by going to community college, getting an in-state scholarship, getting a need-based scholarship at a wealthy school, etc. You have to work harder at academics to do this. Or, you can choose to pay a lot of money for your education. The problem is that if people think they can't afford college, they may not work as hard at school, than if they knew it would be free. Some states already have programs that give free tuition for good grades, and certainly some, but not all, kids do participate. I'm not sure we have culture-wide knowledge of this, the way they do in Europe.
Ironic that sports can actually limit this (the topic of this thread). For example, PitchingFan wouldn't be concerned about in-state vs. out-of-state if it wasn't for the fact that his son wanted to play baseball at a particular out-of-state school.
Let me promise you PitchingFan would greatly be concerned about in-state versus out of state no matter the situation. PitchingFan is a pastor in a small town so money is a great concern. Son is going to school because of baseball and the only reason he is going to a PARTICULAR school is because he could get in-state tuition versus out-of-state tuition. Son wanted to play baseball in the SEC, not at a particular school so if the local SEC or ACC school had ponied up before the commitment he would have gone to one of them. But if it was not for that program, son would have been considering a different school. It is amazing how many students use this program in the southeast to go to the school they want to attend or get the degree they want to get with sports not being a factor. Coastal Carolina uses it as their main recruiting aspect with baseball and other sports and even non-athletes. I think cost of college greatly limits even athletes.
The point that is being made, by many, is that staying in state allows you to get certain scholarships that you could not. Several of the in-state schools here kept trying to relate total cost between their school because of in-state lottery scholarships and UT. The problem is they were talking all of the in-state scholarships with a preferred walk-on versus scholarship money. I am a firm believer that money from a baseball program equals love.
We have free tuition for students that has requirements that pretty much all students that get accepted to our two to three best public Universities go tuition free. For the politics side, this ends up being a middle class welfare program mostly. Most of the poor students have needs based scholarships, and most of the super smart have good scholarships (even on top of the free tuition that can be used for fees + room/board).
For baseball, it is a real benefit, as they can give a small scholarship that covers the remainder of room/board plus some extra benefits without costing the University too much.
As far as free college for all, IMO, too many students are "pushed" into college and simply fail, which hurts them more. Some of the most successful people I know did paid apprenticeships after HS (or after trying college for a while), and make more money and have better jobs than many people with college degrees.
@BaseballBUDDY posted:Florida HS players also have carryover of Advanced Placement courses (AP), which reduces college costs for parents.
It sure seems like this should be the case. For my 3 kids it didn't work this way. All 3 left HS with at least 8 AP classes with high test scores and all they got for their trouble was placement into advanced classes as a freshman. No credits at all towards graduation. In fact, in my daughter's case her class load became so difficult she couldn't handle the 18 units it took to graduate Chem E in 4 years and had to take an extra semester. It actually cost me more money. Make sure you do your homework on the university before you make this assumption, different schools handle this differently.
@TPM posted:Seems like this topic has now gotten into the ability to pay for college vs. the ability not to. I understand that you were looking for info regarding in state players having an advantage, and the answer is yes, in most instances because in state tuition is less than out of state. Once your son/ daughter becomes 18, they can take up legal residence. That option could be explored.
A college education should be available to everyone who wants to attend college, not just the ability to pay. I think that the goal should be to walk away with a small amount of debt, there are ways to achieve that goal. That's where sports or other activities come into the equation. For most, academic $$ provides more of an opportunity than baseball $$.
Good Post.
I just want to add one thing. Be sure that you understand what it takes to become an Intate resident. I had a friend come to my home town and get an apartment and recieved Intstate tuition at Big State U. He was working on a Masters degree and them Law school.
His last year in his Masters program the School came back and claimed that he was not an instate student, because his only source of income was an inheritance that he received. It was a mess.
Edit: PitchingFan beat me to it.
@Dominik85 posted:I definitely can understand that take and that everyone is responsible for himself and I also understand it sucks for the parents who worked their ass off to send their kids to college if the next generation gets it paid for but while I agree your accomplishment should matter should it really matter how willing or able your parents are to pay for college?
It is my fault if I'm lazy but it isn't my fault if my parents are lazy, poor, not interested in education, criminal or whatever.
Imo free college is not about handing success for free, it is about an equal starting chance, after college it is still your responsibility to use that chance.
There are plenty of states where community college is free or close to free for financially needy people. For those who aren’t financially needy it’s inexpensive. That’s two years and an AA.
From there if a person can’t get financial aid there’s financial help from having joined the military and/or from the corporate world. I got my MBA going on nights and weekends. I had to pay up front. Then, as I turned in a B or better I got reimbursed.
There are states that provide significant help to their state university providing the student performs in high school. No one should get a free ride to college because they want to go. It should be earned in high school. Otherwise, it’s likely the student will flunk out of college anyway.
In Europe, where most college education is free or heavily subsidized, many things are different.
Sure is! They rely on NATO (mostly paid for by the US) and the US military for defense. The money these countries don’t have to spend on military goes for free stuff. Americans are financially supporting Europeans free stuff. If the US downsized it’s military to only defend itself a lot of free stuff would disappear in Europe. They would need much larger militaries.
It is my fault if I'm lazy but it isn't my fault if my parents are lazy, poor, not interested in education, criminal or whatever.
People who are successful don’t make excuses. They overcome obstacles. I could give you a really sh***y story of an abusive, alcoholic, irresponsible father. All I’ll tell you is what my kids grew up hearing ... No excuses!
@PitchingFan posted:On another note, free tuition, which is one of the things that the president-elect and group is proposing I have mixed feelings about. Not trying to kill this thread but if it becomes reality there are those who truly use it the right way and there are those who will not. I think reduced (don't ever see free tuition) tuition should be tied to grades. You should have to make a certain grade in every class you register for to receive it. If you drop a class or do bad in a class, you would have to pay for that class maybe with pre-paid money or pre-signed loans. This way the system is not completely abused. I do think it would get some kids in college that cannot afford it but it will also help a lot of athletes go to their dream school and play ball that cannot afford it even with loans. Money kept my middle son from going to the school he wanted to go to. I just don't see where all of this free stuff is coming from when we are already in trillions of dollars of debt as a nation. Truly not trying to get in a political debate. I see the helping part just don't see the reality part.
Yeah tying it to grades or at least passing I think would be fair.
In Germany we had issues that some people who already had the degree would sign in again for another major, pay the 250 bucks fee a year and then never show up just using your University accreditation to use the free public transportation and lowered fees for other stuff.
That doesn't work that way anymore and obviously isn't great.
There also used to be many people who took 6 or 7, sometimes 8 years to get their major degree finishing university at like age 27 because they would do more partying than anything else.
The rules for this has been toughened up so your max time is shorter now but still that isn't great of course.
I see HOPE in GA was mentioned up in the thread, the Academic Common Market also helps reduce tuition for out of state schools. Georgia has or had a deal with Mississippi for in state tuition if you made a 26 or higher (back when 2105 son was recruited) on the ACT. I believe Stricklin focused on his GA players primarily and has brought them back over the last 5 years.
ACM covers most of the southeast including Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia. Simply excludes North Carolina in Southeast. It applies if you are wanting to study a degree program that your states does not offer in any public university that is offered at another public university. You apply for instate tuition and keep it as long as you keep grades up and don't change majors. Most are not aware of it and high schools do not do a good job of telling people about it. You can even start in one major and take required classes and if you change majors there is no penalty you just have to pay out of state after you change majors. All classes taken must apply to within major as long as you are getting it.