Freshman Son Confused at D1 Mid-Major

@adbono posted:

My opinions are different than some on this topic. But relative to “development”, at almost all competitive D1 programs I say there is none. CBI seems to share that opinion (correct me if I’m wrong). Covid has changed all of that for the worse. The axiom has forever been “go where you are loved.” But IMO that has changed too. If you want to get on the field you better go where you are needed. The problem is that no competitive D1 or D2 programs need any HS grads. Literally. They have no need for them - and yet some are still recruiting as many as they always have. Most of them show up on campus and immediately are at a competitive disadvantage b/c their position is stacked with more experienced players ahead of them. So who is going to work with these 18 year old freshmen to make them better players. Position coaches? Nope. They are busy working with the guys that can help them win now. How about older players? Probably not. They have their own game to worry about. And god forbid you are a lowly incoming freshman P and there is no sidearmer currently on the staff. If that’s the case guess who gets turned into one. Is that the best thing for that kid? Maybe but maybe not. My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

@adbono  you are reading the same tea leaves.

Depending on what tribe you belong to the journey to 4 year school may or may not be different in the next 2 to 4 years

Tribes

• JUCO
• Post Grad
• High School

The Cheese has been moved for the High School Grad

Note, what I've seen on this website is that "Players and Families need to do their Research", what are they researching?  Are they researching based on old assumptions?

Most don't have the attention span to perform the research.  Most are visual learners, whereas after a high level glance they may or may not dig deeper.

Most consumption is via mobile device and the information is pushed to them.

@TPM the chart thing is simple, last year certain SEC schools went heavy into the JUCO pool in order to procure talent for the 2022 season.

Is the 4yr school changing their recruiting strategy or Is this an anomaly or the new normal, only time will tell.

The list (not chart) below, is telling me there may be a climate change,

Again, this could be a 3 to 5 yr event due to JUCO players getting 2 free years of College Baseball.

@adbono posted:

Perfect real life example of what’s going on at competitive D1 programs. Thank you @baseballhs. This isn’t an isolated incident by the way. It’s happening all over college baseball. More at the top D1 schools than anywhere else but no player is immune to it happening to them.

@adbono a form of free agency has come to college baseball, is it any different than how travel baseball has exponential expanded?

The disruption has reached the mainland.

@CollegebaseballInsights wrote, “Again, this could be a 3 to 5 year event due to JuCo players getting 2 free years of COLLEGE BASEBALL.”

And then he supported it with data. This is 100% correct. Anyone that thinks differently doesn’t understand what is happening at the most competitive college baseball programs.

What is being described here is effecting the D3 level, too

Kids who are Juniors this season still have 2 more years of eligibility after this year.  More and more D3 teams will be bringing in JUCO transfers in the next few years, too.

@3and2Fastball posted:

What is being described here is effecting the D3 level, too

Kids who are Juniors this season still have 2 more years of eligibility after this year.  More and more D3 teams will be bringing in JUCO transfers in the next few years, too.

To a lesser degree, but you are correct. D3 UT-Dallas is right in my backyard. I see a few games every year. Historically they have never had many transfers on their roster. The past two years they have had 6 or so - and they have been a noticeably better team.  Some Grad, some JuCo, some bounce downs.

@adbono posted:

To a lesser degree, but you are correct. D3 UT-Dallas is right in my backyard. I see a few games every year. Historically they have never had many transfers on their roster. The past two years they have had 6 or so - and they have been a noticeably better team.  Some Grad, some JuCo, some bounce downs.

There are some D3’s that have very very few JUCO transfers, especially the HA schools.  It’s very very tough to get through admissions transferring from a JUCO program to a HA.  Because of that the private HA’s are at a competitive disadvantage in D3 in recruiting but some are making up for it with facilities and academic scholarships.  It’ll be interesting to watch it play out over the next several years.

My son’s D3 team has played a few Top 25 teams this year, that really brought to home the wide disparity of talent levels among various D3 teams

There is a wide disparity of talent among teams at all levels of college baseball.

@3and2Fastball posted:

There are some D3’s that have very very few JUCO transfers, especially the HA schools.  It’s very very tough to get through admissions transferring from a JUCO program to a HA.  Because of that the private HA’s are at a competitive disadvantage in D3 in recruiting but some are making up for it with facilities and academic scholarships.  It’ll be interesting to watch it play out over the next several years.

My son’s D3 team has played a few Top 25 teams this year, that really brought to home the wide disparity of talent levels among various D3 teams

Mostly a regional thing.  This is the 2021 JUCO Pipeline for Brookdale (NJCAA-D3), send most players to D3 schools in tri-state area.

We are currently working on 2022 NAIA Juco pipeline reconciliation.

From a NAIA perspective, we've completed the South Region and a midway through the Midwest.  So if you were to look at the free juco report, and sort on the NAIA column, currently it would probably show the JUCOs in the south having more representation in the pipeline

Note, NCAA-D1 and D2 have been reconciled for 2022.

@adbono posted:

My opinions are different than some on this topic. But relative to “development”, at almost all competitive D1 programs I say there is none. CBI seems to share that opinion (correct me if I’m wrong). Covid has changed all of that for the worse. The axiom has forever been “go where you are loved.” But IMO that has changed too. If you want to get on the field you better go where you are needed. The problem is that no competitive D1 or D2 programs need any HS grads. Literally. They have no need for them - and yet some are still recruiting as many as they always have. Most of them show up on campus and immediately are at a competitive disadvantage b/c their position is stacked with more experienced players ahead of them. So who is going to work with these 18 year old freshmen to make them better players. Position coaches? Nope. They are busy working with the guys that can help them win now. How about older players? Probably not. They have their own game to worry about. And god forbid you are a lowly incoming freshman P and there is no sidearmer currently on the staff. If that’s the case guess who gets turned into one. Is that the best thing for that kid? Maybe but maybe not. My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

I know that you are familiar with what goes on in Texas. How can you make a statement that there is no development going on in big competitive programs? Have you researched every one of them to know this. Texas has good baseball. They aren't developing their players? What's going on?

Check out the #5 RPI in the country. University of Miami.

Quick look 22 HS players, 8 JUCO, 4, 4 year transfers, 2 of them from FL programs. They aren't winning obviously  because of grad transfers, that's for sure. I do know that a few of these players had opportunities to go pro. They chose a solid respected program to improve their status, obviously.

Almost every player has contributed this season. A large portion from HS.

Is this winners luck or player development?

Of course I have not researched every program. But I bet CBI is pretty close to that. There are exceptions to any statement that I make and my comments usually allow for that. It’s possible for anyone to adopt a contrarian attitude about most any post if they are inclined to do so.

@Consultant posted:

TPM and others, how many prospective players watch the College team play a game? During the games did they interview the parents of the current team is players. What questions would you ask the parents.?

Why, when, where, what and how?

Bob

When my son was fourteen I started watching college games. I sat on the visiting team side so each visit would be a different perspective. I asked, “How did you son end up here? Where else did he consider?” Then I shut up and listened. Parents like to talk about their successful kids.

@adbono posted:

My opinions are different than some on this topic. But relative to “development”, at almost all competitive D1 programs I say there is none. CBI seems to share that opinion (correct me if I’m wrong). Covid has changed all of that for the worse. The axiom has forever been “go where you are loved.” But IMO that has changed too. If you want to get on the field you better go where you are needed. The problem is that no competitive D1 or D2 programs need any HS grads. Literally. They have no need for them - and yet some are still recruiting as many as they always have. Most of them show up on campus and immediately are at a competitive disadvantage b/c their position is stacked with more experienced players ahead of them. So who is going to work with these 18 year old freshmen to make them better players. Position coaches? Nope. They are busy working with the guys that can help them win now. How about older players? Probably not. They have their own game to worry about. And god forbid you are a lowly incoming freshman P and there is no sidearmer currently on the staff. If that’s the case guess who gets turned into one. Is that the best thing for that kid? Maybe but maybe not. My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

Not completely disagreeing but give me examples of top 25 teams that are not developing guys.  When I look at SEC teams, my most knowledge, they are playing a lot of young guys and also developing guys.  There are a lot of older guys getting playing time and not that many transfers.   Again, I may be wrong but just looking at the SEC, ACC, and Big 12 teams which is the ones I know best.

@PitchingFan posted:

Not completely disagreeing but give me examples of top 25 teams that are not developing guys.  When I look at SEC teams, my most knowledge, they are playing a lot of young guys and also developing guys.  There are a lot of older guys getting playing time and not that many transfers.   Again, I may be wrong but just looking at the SEC, ACC, and Big 12 teams which is the ones I know best.

Will do that in a PM

I would like to see those examples also.

RJM

your are very perspective, also ask , would you return”? Do over”,

question: why parents do not ask for professional evaluations for their son’s  six tools and skills and baseball intellect!
Bob

@PitchingFan posted:

Not completely disagreeing but give me examples of top 25 teams that are not developing guys.  

Our program is one of them. While mine has been fortunate enough to play - he was also a contributor from day 1. And while he has contributed, it has not been as a result of him being coached up, he just swam when thrown in the water. Nobody has sat him down and broke things down with him. Nobody has worked with him to change grips, try something new. It was basically get on the mound and don't fail. Those who couldn't perform are gone, those who no longer perform will be gone, and those on the rise at lower levels and other programs will be the ones replacing them. When he wants to work on something he comes home and sees his pitching coach from HS.

I saw a former travel teammate was doing well for a ranked D1 and read on article on the team. This is a quote from the coach.

"A lot of times, players, they are what they are and sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s not. You leave them alone and if they are good enough, they play."

That is crazy and roughly translates to: I don't have time to work with kids, they either figure it out and play or they don't.

Two kids who were drafted out of HS in our program, one of which turned down 3rd Rd money, were cut this offseason after getting a combined total of 20 ABS in two seasons between the two of them. Those kids are 1000% good enough to play for us. They're both at jucos now hitting over .400. One committed to an SEC school, the other deciding between 3 P5s. All somebody had to do was work with those kids. Instead they brought in grad transfers and juco players who didn't need work and they were gone, just like that.

@adbono posted:

My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

100% spot on. It's actually bizarre how little development there can be in programs. Even in the programs where there is some actual coaching being done it appears it's only for the top 20-25 guys.

For many you get September of your freshman year as an audition. After that you either have eyes on you or you are taking up space.

@adbono posted:

Of course I have not researched every program. But I bet CBI is pretty close to that. There are exceptions to any statement that I make and my comments usually allow for that. It’s possible for anyone to adopt a contrarian attitude about most any post if they are inclined to do so.

@TPM In many ways, you @adbono and many on this board are saying the same thing.  "Do your research, one size does not fit all"

Like any bell curve, how colleges build their rosters will vary based on philosophy, availability of talent, $$$, etc.

Covid-19 and subsequent policies implemented by the governing bodies have influenced how coaches build their rosters.

Let's first agree "graduation class is not consistent in most cases".

If the player transferred from a  JUCO, is he listed as a "FR" or "C-FR".  If he is a "C-FR", does it mean he did 1 or 2 years of JUCO?

Question: What is the Definition of "Development"?

• Game Reps ???  Midweek vs weekend,  conference vs non-conference
• Competition Summer League playing with and against your peers

I'm going to go out on a limb and say everybody develops, the pool they draw from vary.

As @adbono  and I are stating, HS players are working against an uneven playing field, the JUCO player in many cases is getting 2 years of college experience.

Anyway, good dialog, we will find examples that will sway this conversation in many directions.

Again, there are some interesting patterns developing, and if I see one more tweet of a player committing, well ...

Show me the NLI, but this is the world as it is today

Note, I will share information where relevant.  I don't know what I don't know, but seeing the policies enacted by NCAA, etc  made us pivot and create the Team Roster Turnover and JUCO Pipeline Insights.

Regards

It's funny how similar this is to complaints about HS baseball where some coaches develop players but some do not.  And in those high school cases, the answer always is, find outside instructors and work year-round with them, get better by yourself and then be so good they have to put you on the field.   PABaseball has just said that is what his son does.  Is that the expected model in college, too?

@anotherparent posted:

It's funny how similar this is to complaints about HS baseball where some coaches develop players but some do not.  And in those cases, the answer always is, find outside instructors and work year-round with them, get better by yourself and then be so good they have to put you on the field.   PABaseball has just said that is what his son does.  Is that the expected model in college, too?

I think the problem begins with expectations. As players move up the baseball ladder it’s logical for them (and their parents) to believe that the coaching gets better - and that each player receives the same amount of attention from the coaches. And it doesn’t work that way. Not even close. College coaches are going to focus their attention on the players that they believe can help them win today. I think that point has been well supported by posters that have kids playing in D1 programs right now. So the issue is that reality doesn’t match expectations - which results in disappointment. After you get over the shock and have accepted the reality of the situation you better figure out a way to get better or you get left behind.

@PABaseball posted:

100% spot on. It's actually bizarre how little development there can be in programs. Even in the programs where there is some actual coaching being done it appears it's only for the top 20-25 guys.

For many you get September of your freshman year as an audition. After that you either have eyes on you or you are taking up space.

There is a limited time amount with the players and no way that you can INVEST with only 3 coaches into more than about 25-30 guys.  When your job depends on winning games, you have to invest in a certain number of players and 25-30 is a lot of players for 3 coaches to invest in.  There is no way they can invest in 45 players.  So there has to be some development strength wise and learning and waiting.  I don't think players and their parents are willing to wait their turns.  They want to come in and play immediately and that can't happen for everyone.

I again blame the parents for not doing the research.  In today's world you should know who is going juco and portal transfers versus who is going freshmen coming in.  I don't think it has changed other than the fact that some have tapped the portal but those guys were always tapping the juco transfers strong.  If you are not doing that research and asking current players and checking stats then you have no room to complain.  Buyer beware is an important part of the process.  That is why many on here preach do your homework.

@anotherparent posted:

It's funny how similar this is to complaints about HS baseball where some coaches develop players but some do not.  And in those high school cases, the answer always is, find outside instructors and work year-round with them, get better by yourself and then be so good they have to put you on the field.   PABaseball has just said that is what his son does.  Is that the expected model in college, too?

This is not a new concept.  Over the years, I know of several players who have sought out instruction on their own. Sometimes on advice of their agent.

Lots of guys go to the FL BB Ranch, during holidays.  Pro guys do the same thing.

It's not forbidden that I am aware of, but if there is an injury, it might not be covered. 

When son was at Clemson one of the hitters went to have his swing fixed at a nearby facility.  Changed his life. Got drafted that year in first round. It was kind of like a secret, but we all knew.

@PitchingFan posted:

There is a limited time amount with the players and no way that you can INVEST with only 3 coaches into more than about 25-30 guys.  When your job depends on winning games, you have to invest in a certain number of players and 25-30 is a lot of players for 3 coaches to invest in.  There is no way they can invest in 45 players.  So there has to be some development strength wise and learning and waiting.  I don't think players and their parents are willing to wait their turns.  They want to come in and play immediately and that can't happen for everyone.

I again blame the parents for not doing the research.  In today's world you should know who is going juco and portal transfers versus who is going freshmen coming in.  I don't think it has changed other than the fact that some have tapped the portal but those guys were always tapping the juco transfers strong.  If you are not doing that research and asking current players and checking stats then you have no room to complain.  Buyer beware is an important part of the process.  That is why many on here preach do your homework.

I don't buy that there's not enough time/resources. They're at the field or doing team related activities for 4-6 hours a day. Most coaching staffs have 4 coaches and a baseball ops guy.

45 guys is too many for the coaches, I get it. The question is why are there 45 guys for a game that requires a max 10 at any time.

I could get past that if waiting and developing was an option but for most it isn't even an option. You are cut or told they don't see you in the plans and to transfer. In the years I've been in the loop with our program - all but one non travelers in our program are no longer with the team. All underclassmen who hit below .220 were gone. 3 draftees out of HS, gone. Alarmingly, most are excelling at other programs. I can only speak to what I know. I have seen it, and I have talked to many that just said they never felt like they had a chance to improve, never told specifically what needed to be fixed, what needed changing, and were mostly ignored the second they started struggling.

You are right the research is critical. I would've been lost, like many others, had I not found this board. Most don't find this board and end up with their travel program director in their ear when their priority is which school looks better on their social media.

Maybe your sons program does it right. It would appear that way from the outside looking in. That is probably a massive part of the reason they are where they are right now. If I had to guess I would say there are less programs right now that resemble the structure yours does than do. I understand you've been around college baseball for some time, but I believe Covid has drastically changed the way programs function now.

@PABaseball posted:

I don't buy that there's not enough time/resources. They're at the field or doing team related activities for 4-6 hours a day. Most coaching staffs have 4 coaches and a baseball ops guy.

45 guys is too many for the coaches, I get it. The question is why are there 45 guys for a game that requires a max 10 at any time.

I could get past that if waiting and developing was an option but for most it isn't even an option. You are cut or told they don't see you in the plans and to transfer. In the years I've been in the loop with our program - all but one non travelers in our program are no longer with the team. All underclassmen who hit below .220 were gone. 3 draftees out of HS, gone. Alarmingly, most are excelling at other programs. I can only speak to what I know. I have seen it, and I have talked to many that just said they never felt like they had a chance to improve, never told specifically what needed to be fixed, what needed changing, and were mostly ignored the second they started struggling.

You are right the research is critical. I would've been lost, like many others, had I not found this board. Most don't find this board and end up with their travel program director in their ear when their priority is which school looks better on their social media.

Maybe your sons program does it right. It would appear that way from the outside looking in. That is probably a massive part of the reason they are where they are right now. If I had to guess I would say there are less programs right now that resemble the structure yours does than do. I understand you've been around college baseball for some time, but I believe Covid has drastically changed the way programs function now.

I agree 100% with all of the above. It’s not that big D1 programs don’t have the time, the staff, and the resources. It’s how they choose to allocate those things. The description of what happens when a player doesn’t perform is spot on. This has been going on for years at lots of programs but Covid has made it much worse.

Players who are really committed to improving will get in the work. My 2015's teammates (typically 3-4 players) would go to the batting cages at 10PM to do tee work and flips. They would also do some hand fielding drills.  There are plenty of drills/exercises that can be done on their own to improve.  Coaches will see eventually see your hard work by the improved play.

@PABaseball posted:

I don't buy that there's not enough time/resources. They're at the field or doing team related activities for 4-6 hours a day. Most coaching staffs have 4 coaches and a baseball ops guy.

45 guys is too many for the coaches, I get it. The question is why are there 45 guys for a game that requires a max 10 at any time.

I could get past that if waiting and developing was an option but for most it isn't even an option. You are cut or told they don't see you in the plans and to transfer. In the years I've been in the loop with our program - all but one non travelers in our program are no longer with the team. All underclassmen who hit below .220 were gone. 3 draftees out of HS, gone. Alarmingly, most are excelling at other programs. I can only speak to what I know. I have seen it, and I have talked to many that just said they never felt like they had a chance to improve, never told specifically what needed to be fixed, what needed changing, and were mostly ignored the second they started struggling.

You are right the research is critical. I would've been lost, like many others, had I not found this board. Most don't find this board and end up with their travel program director in their ear when their priority is which school looks better on their social media.

Maybe your sons program does it right. It would appear that way from the outside looking in. That is probably a massive part of the reason they are where they are right now. If I had to guess I would say there are less programs right now that resemble the structure yours does than do. I understand you've been around college baseball for some time, but I believe Covid has drastically changed the way programs function now.

worth repeating

I've re-read through this thread, and I really think (ALL)  the advice is invaluable for the state of college baseball at this point in time.   This thread is a must read for the prospect, recruit, committed college player, freshman college player.   

Folks have to understand what kind of program you are dealing with....is it transactional (transfer portal is lighting up like a Christmas tree) or is it more traditional especially at the D1 mid-major level.   We know the top level D1s P5 are transactional because they have to be to compete.   It used to be that college players transferred as a last resort defensive move as they were willing to lose a year of eligibility.  Now, college players have the ability to go on offense and transfer for many reasons.  Research is needed now more than ever to get the full story about a program.

As always, JMO.

Good summation by @fenwaysouth

Thanks to all for their input and advice!  My son is determined to keep working hard and being a good teammate.  He is going to bring some questions with him for his exit meetings to get more pointed feedback from the coaches to see how he really fits into their plan for the future.  The exit meetings will probably not happen until after conference tournament in late May, so we will see how that goes.  He wants to stay and keep battling for opportunities as long as the coaches want him there and don't cut his scholarship money.

I definitely think the words of advice throughout this thread will be beneficial for those at all phases in their recruiting process all the way to the freshmen players on campus.

Time Flys:

keep us informed on his Summer League. The level of competition and his learning program.

Bob

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK. 

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

@TimeFlies posted:

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK.

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

I’m very sorry for the experience that your son (and you) had. Unfortunately it’s all too common. Your realization in hindsight that the JuCo route would have been better is also all too common. It’s harder than ever for a HS player to stick at a competitive D1 baseball program. Three major factors that have occurred in the past two years have drastically changed the recruiting landscape for college baseball: 1) NCAA granting extra years of eligibility due to Covid19; 2) the transfer portal ; and 3) the reduction of the MLB draft from 40 to 20 rounds. The combined effect of those 3 things makes it almost impossible for a HS player to stick at a competitive D1 program unless he has draft talent. Best of luck to your son. No doubt that these are difficult times for him and you. Hope it all works out for the best.

I'm sorry to hear this.  We know tons of kids who have had these conversations this year.  My own son called me saying he didn't love it anymore recently as well.  I did talk him out of it because I truly think it is his current experience and not baseball that he is struggling with.  I also think he will regret it if he doesn't see this through, but told him if he really was done, we would understand.  I don't think he is, but the hits do keep coming for these kids post 2020.  It really stinks.  I'm so sorry.

Adbono;

what suggestions would you have for 16 year old with a desire to improve and play in a "strong" college program?

#1 find a local track coach

#2 obtain a eye exam

#3 play in a '18' and under League. Take notes and observe. Teach yourself.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

what suggestions would you have for 16 year old with a desire to improve and play in a "strong" college program?

#1 find a local track coach

#2 obtain a eye exam

#3 play in a '18' and under League. Take notes and observe. Teach yourself.

Bob

Bob, my advice would depend on whether we are talking about a pitcher or a position player. Your points above would apply more to a position player. And they are valid points but I would take issue with #3. In most areas of the country college coaches aren’t scouting 18u teams b/c most of those players are already in college or already committed. The place to be seen by college guys is 17u. So I would advise playing on the best 17u option that was available. In addition I would advise to hook up with the best local instructor (either pitching or hitting) that you can find and stay true to the development process. Don’t chase short term gains. In addition I would add in a good nutrition program and a focus on good study habits. I would also advise to go see college games at all levels - JuCo, D3, D2, D1 & NAIA. Then I would burn all his video games and throw his iphone in the Pacific Ocean. All that ought to get it done !

I don’t post here a lot any longer. But, this thread caught my attention. I posted something years ago that would apply here. I, like most parents, probably thought a little higher of my son than his actual talent. I did take the time to seek out professional opinions on my son’s abilities. I was told by multiple people, yes he is definitely D1 talent. Then, that was confirmed by MLB interest up until he was injured senior year in HS. He loved and signed with his “dream school”, LSU. He missed his freshman season due to TJ surgery. It was an uphill battle from there. He contributed and had some amazing experiences. He pitched in game 1 of CWS finals against eventual champion UF. He closed in championship game in SEC championship against Arkansas. He started game 1 of regional his last season in Oregon State. BUT, he told me that if you aren’t a starter, you are basically own your own. There is / was little development. This blew my mind. I started asking parents in other high profile programs. Same held true there. I’m not saying there is NO development at ALL programs. What I am warning future parents is, unless you are THE guy, you are most likely gonna have to figure it out yourself. My son never was the guy at LSU. Didn’t really ever get the opportunity. I’m fully convinced his injury prior to freshman season was a big part of that issue. They may have had him “penciled in” as a starter before he was hurt. They talked to him like that was the case. But after he was injured, they had no choice but to move on. I don’t blame them for that. He did prove by his redshirt sophomore season that he could be “the guy”, but he had become too valuable out of the pen. Mainieri said publicly that he would love to start him but he felt he could affect the series out of BP on multiple days instead of starting one game. At his exit interview after his redshirt sophomore season, he asked would he have a chance to compete for a starting job. He was basically told it would be best to go to pro ball. He has been a starter in the Rockies organization since day one. So the talent was undoubtedly there. The timing wasn’t and there wasn’t room for development is the ONLY thing I can assume. In general, there is WAY LESS development at the P5 D1 level than 99% of people realize or know. That is just the reality of championship level collegiate baseball.

@TimeFlies : It does indeed.

Best of luck to you and your son. These are always difficult decisions. Baseball ends for everyone at some point and regardless of the level I think it is a painful process. The good news is that your son was very mature and reflective in his decision and made the "mature" one and it will make him a stronger and better person as a result. p

I am not a big fan of players (at their parents urging) jumping around from program to program as the college experience should go beyond just playing baseball IMO. At least out here on the West Coast, JuCo competitiveness is just as intense as many D1's so IMO it is not a panacea.

Again best of luck to your son.

Post by @younggun should be required reading by all HS baseball players that aspire to play college baseball. Every word is 100% on point. He has lived it as a parent and I can validate it as being my same experience as a player. 100% the gospel truth.

@younggun posted:

I don’t post here a lot any longer. But, this thread caught my attention. I posted something years ago that would apply here. I, like most parents, probably thought a little higher of my son than his actual talent. I did take the time to seek out professional opinions on my son’s abilities. I was told by multiple people, yes he is definitely D1 talent. Then, that was confirmed by MLB interest up until he was injured senior year in HS. He loved and signed with his “dream school”, LSU. He missed his freshman season due to TJ surgery. It was an uphill battle from there. He contributed and had some amazing experiences. He pitched in game 1 of CWS finals against eventual champion UF. He closed in championship game in SEC championship against Arkansas. He started game 1 of regional his last season in Oregon State. BUT, he told me that if you aren’t a starter, you are basically own your own. There is / was little development. This blew my mind. I started asking parents in other high profile programs. Same held true there. I’m not saying there is NO development at ALL programs. What I am warning future parents is, unless you are THE guy, you are most likely gonna have to figure it out yourself. My son never was the guy at LSU. Didn’t really ever get the opportunity. I’m fully convinced his injury prior to freshman season was a big part of that issue. They may have had him “penciled in” as a starter before he was hurt. They talked to him like that was the case. But after he was injured, they had no choice but to move on. I don’t blame them for that. He did prove by his redshirt sophomore season that he could be “the guy”, but he had become too valuable out of the pen. Mainieri said publicly that he would love to start him but he felt he could affect the series out of BP on multiple days instead of starting one game. At his exit interview after his redshirt sophomore season, he asked would he have a chance to compete for a starting job. He was basically told it would be best to go to pro ball. He has been a starter in the Rockies organization since day one. So the talent was undoubtedly there. The timing wasn’t and there wasn’t room for development is the ONLY thing I can assume. In general, there is WAY LESS development at the P5 D1 level than 99% of people realize or know. That is just the reality of championship level collegiate baseball.

100% true. At the beginning of conference play, only starters were even getting bullpens. I think they changed that at son’s school but probably only by necessity.   Lots of kids are told to change things but there isn’t a lot of follow through.

I will again reiterate that is not the case everywhere.  I'm sure there are some at the bottom of our pitching list that would say they did not get help.  We have 12 guys who have pitched at least 13 innings this spring at UT.  With three of those being freshmen and two are weekend starters.  Team era of 2.36 and it just went up over the past 2 weekends.  Son has always gotten help with changing pitches and grips to get more out of his pitches.  I think that is the same for at least all 12 guys.  I know some of you will say what about the others.  I would say many of them have gotten help but with 1 pitching coach there is only so much time that can be devoted each year to getting guys where they need to be.  Much of son's work after consultation with PC was on his own with tweeking during sessions.  Our PC watches almost every bullpen session and they also video every session.  Much of it depends on the player's desire to get where he wants to be.  Not all cases but many that I know of they are just not ready for the jump from HS to college.  For some reason, parents don't realize how big JUCO can be in development.  It is not needed for all but is good for most.