Freshman Son Confused at D1 Mid-Major

I knew a player very well who "was your son". Had 20 ABs as a freshman and was All-American as a sophomore. In between was the hardest worker day in and day out. Many kids play little or none as freshman and then contribute big for two or three years. Until there is a tangible reason to not believe the coach, I'd take him at his word that he is glad your son is in the program and opportunities will come. Until then, work hard and be the best teammate.

@High Change Ups Go A Long Way posted:

I knew a player very well who "was your son". Had 20 ABs as a freshman and was All-American as a sophomore. In between was the hardest worker day in and day out. Many kids play little or none as freshman and then contribute big for two or three years. Until there is a tangible reason to not believe the coach, I'd take him at his word that he is glad your son is in the program and opportunities will come. Until then, work hard and be the best teammate.

Great advice from above. Coaches do plan on using true freshman in certain situations to get acclimated but often the situation doesn't arise. It also depends on how the season is going for the team.

His roster is set now for conference play and unless that SS gets hurt he won't be needed this season, obviously. And keep in mind coaches need to keep comments positive until final exit interviews.

That's not cut throat, IMO. If he had promised your son would start as a freshman, to keep him from not committing elsewhere, that's cut throat.

What I don't agree with is when a coach burns a players redshirt year with a few at bats or pitches on the mound. But to be honest most coaches only give RS status if player was hurt.

Hopefully the coach has made arrangements for him to play this summer.

@TPM posted:

Great advice from above. Coaches do plan on using true freshman in certain situations to get acclimated but often the situation doesn't arise. It also depends on how the season is going for the team.

His roster is set now for conference play and unless that SS gets hurt he won't be needed this season, obviously. And keep in mind coaches need to keep comments positive until final exit interviews.

That's not cut throat, IMO. If he had promised your son would start as a freshman, to keep him from not committing elsewhere, that's cut throat.

What I don't agree with is when a coach burns a players redshirt year with a few at bats or pitches on the mound. But to be honest most coaches only give RS status if player was hurt.

Hopefully the coach has made arrangements for him to play this summer.

Thanks for the information.  I do agree with burning the redshirt year.  I am a little frustrated they didn't offer that as an option as I hate to see him waste a whole year of eligibility for really no reason.  Anyway, I knew going in that play time would be very limited and I am by no means upset about that.  It's more about the seemingly opposite messaging he is getting between the actions and words from the coaches.  Thanks!

A few things

1. Sounds like he's on pace for about 15 ABs. That's about normal for a straight up backup. The only non starters who will really get meaningful ABs are matchup dependent starters, one time starters who lost their job, or somebody who filled in due to injury. The only non starters on our team with more than 10 ABs are the midweek catcher, and our 10/11 guys who play based on L/R matchups and DH spots. It seems like a waste, and it probably is, but it's pretty much on line.

2. Your son is at the age where these meetings with the coaches are supposed to be open dialogues not them talking at him. So when coach says we love you and you're going to get your opportunities then your son needs to say then why am I not traveling? How am I going to get opportunities when I am not attending half our games? Your son needs to determine whether the coach is being honest or is giving him the run around.

3. What do the stats say? Are the three infielders all hitting? You say they struggle. Did they struggle for a week or a month? What has your son done with his 6 ABs? Coming off the bench cold isn't great for success, but for a lot of the guys looking for more opportunities it's what you have to do.

4. I would say no more meetings. Exit meeting is the next time they talk about his role. The coach's actions do not back up his words, not traveling would indicate he's 28-35 on the roster. Not saying this to be rude, but that is not a good place to be. Let the season play out, have the exit meeting and it needs to be an honest discussion where your son pushes back on the BS. Determine whether he wants to stick it out or enter the portal and look for more playing time elsewhere.

TimeFlies,

Your son plays a very demanding position in a time when talented players are switching teams willy-nilly.  If your son likes it there then keep working hard to master what he is being asked to learn.   

The way I read your post was that your son was being groomed or given the opportunity to grow and be groomed.   In my mind there are two positions where a college HC has to feel most comfortable....catcher and shortstop...these are "security blanket positions".  Those two positions have to understand how the Coaches mind works during a game, and how the Coach wants things done...possibly your son just doesn't have that experience yet.   The other question that came to mind reading your post is about your son's hitting.   If your son demonstrates he is a strong and capable hitter then he should be able to break into that lineup and play anywhere as you mentioned.   You want to make a college coach happy and look good?  Give him a shortstop that can hit, field, and play any position.

I agree with HCUGALW that until there is a tangible reason to not believe the coach, I'd take him at his word.   If there becomes a tangible reason then that is a different discussion entirely.

JMO. Good luck!

Point of reference. My son was "loved" by the coaches that recruited him at his D3. Had a great fall. His team was pre-season top 10 in the spring and the team was pretty loaded. He got 8 ABs in the first 7 games, including getting pulled from a couple games after going 0 for 2 (DH). Didn't travel and ended up with 11 ABs for the season. The guys who played ahead of his at 1B and DH did their jobs, and I assume that the coaches didn't think he separated himself from those guys enough to go with the unproven newcomer. I was pissed, but I never let that leak into any of my interactions with him.

Sophomore year he started every game, slugged 585 and made first team all conference. No doubt in my mind that a couple of hard hit balls during those 8 ABs during freshman would have changed everything for that season. That's baseball.

My unsolicited advice for you is to do your best to keep your anxiety about it to yourself. Chances are, your son has this under control. He may be staying the course, or he may be thinking about leaving. Either way, he'll figure it out. Just support him and try to enjoy that he's a part of the team for now.

"Time flys"

as TPM states the "key" is the Summer League. Will the Coach select the League and team? A strong Summer team will provide the experience that will be needed by the player for his future College career. It is also a indication of his future as a SS.

Bob

@TimeFlies posted:

Thanks for the information.  I do agree with burning the redshirt year.  I am a little frustrated they didn't offer that as an option as I hate to see him waste a whole year of eligibility for really no reason.  Anyway, I knew going in that play time would be very limited and I am by no means upset about that.  It's more about the seemingly opposite messaging he is getting between the actions and words from the coaches.  Thanks!

That's usually not an option given to the player. Hopefully the NCAA will come up with a solution for this issue.

Good luck to your son and hang in there. Let us know how the season ends.

@Consultant posted:

"Time flys"

as TPM states the "key" is the Summer League. Will the Coach select the League and team? A strong Summer team will provide the experience that will be needed by the player for his future College career. It is also a indication of his future as a SS.

Bob

Bob,

He was assigned to a summer collegiate league late in the fall.  He will be playing in the Perfect Game Collegiate Baseball League in New York.  I hope it will be a good experience for him.

@TPM posted:

That's usually not an option given to the player. Hopefully the NCAA will come up with a solution for this issue.

Good luck to your son and hang in there. Let us know how the season ends.

From what I understand, the NCAA has worked on the football side regarding redshirting and now allows a maximum number of games and can still redshirt.

As it now stands, for NCAA baseball, 1 plate appearance or 1 pitch thrown (or any other game appearance) will burn the year of  participation.

...unless you can qualify for a medical waiver...

"Time flys"

It will be a interesting experience for your son. Will any of his teammates join him?

Is this a "wood bat" league? How many games each week?

Ask your son to list 5 areas for improvement of his skills.

Bob

@TimeFlies posted:

From what I understand, the NCAA has worked on the football side regarding redshirting and now allows a maximum number of games and can still redshirt.

@T_Thomas posted:

As it now stands, for NCAA baseball, 1 plate appearance or 1 pitch thrown (or any other game appearance) will burn the year of  participation.

...unless you can qualify for a medical waiver...

From what we’ve seen, when a kid transfers it is relatively easy for the new school to get the NCAA to retroactively grant that medical waiver on past seasons where a kid barely played.

@Consultant posted:

"Time flys"

It will be a interesting experience for your son. Will any of his teammates join him?

Is this a "wood bat" league? How many games each week?

Ask your son to list 5 areas for improvement of his skills.

Bob

Bob,

He will be playing on this team by himself, he had a teammate that was also going but is no longer with the program.

It is a wood bat league and they average 5-6 games per week.

I will take your advice and have him list out those areas for improvement.

Thanks!

How were his freshman fall semester grades? Is he far enough removed from future eligibility concerns? I don’t know where this starts for coaches. I’m guessing it depends of the perceived challenge of the school and major. 2.3 is required freshman year. Is he far enough away from this number?

@RJM posted:

How were his freshman fall semester grades? Is he far enough removed from future eligibility concerns? I don’t know where this starts for coaches. I’m guessing it depends of the perceived challenge of the school and major. 2.3 is required freshman year. Is he far enough away from this number?

Freshman fall grades were very good - 3.6.  So I don't think eligibility is an issue at all from that standpoint.  Thanks!

@Consultant posted:

"Time flys"

as TPM states the "key" is the Summer League. Will the Coach select the League and team? A strong Summer team will provide the experience that will be needed by the player for his future College career. It is also a indication of his future as a SS.

What is the benefit of the summer league? The coach is still being deceitful - his actions do not match his words. I would imagine somebody excluded from the travel roster would not be a priority summer placement.

Benefits of  a strong summer league is to rebuild the players confidence, learn from playing, develop new skills and exhibit to college scouts his tools. It will take only one Coach to admire his Skill.
Two months of summer league at 5 games weekly equals a College season.

Bob

@3and2Fastball posted:

From what we’ve seen, when a kid transfers it is relatively easy for the new school to get the NCAA to retroactively grant that medical waiver on past seasons where a kid barely played.

Interesting...is that related to the transfer?  A buddy of my son's pitched one inning early in his freshman year and then caught a bad case of Covid.  Sidelined a good month and never got back in.  Applied for a medical waiver (at same school) but no dice.

Bob

@TimeFlies posted:

Thanks for the information.  I do agree with burning the redshirt year.  I am a little frustrated they didn't offer that as an option as I hate to see him waste a whole year of eligibility for really no reason.  Anyway, I knew going in that play time would be very limited and I am by no means upset about that.  It's more about the seemingly opposite messaging he is getting between the actions and words from the coaches.  Thanks!

I agree with @TPM and @fenway

@TimeFlies posted:

Bob,

He was assigned to a summer collegiate league late in the fall.  He will be playing in the Perfect Game Collegiate Baseball League in New York.  I hope it will be a good experience for him.

@timeflies

https://csbn.news/2021/07/06/c...-10-csb-league-list/

Note, there might be other summer league rankings

My 2015 was told he was going to play some during the spring as well.  2015 didn't play for the first 25 games and he was frustrated to say the least!  He spoke with the HC and was told he will get an opportunity but would not commit to when.  I encouraged him to do the things that he can control like work hard to get better.   Game 26...... an opportunity to start in mid week game and 2015 did well enough to provide the HC confidence to give him  40AB by season's end.

My message to him was to work hard to be ready for the opportunity.  Freshman need to earn the confidence of the coaches and nothing is given. My 2015 may want the opportunity but the starter has earned the HC's confidence and my freshman 2015 had not earned the confidence yet.  Most players coming in as Freshman have to adjust to their role and understand they are not "the man" anymore. 

IMO the message should be work hard to earn the confidence of the coaching staff and an opportunity will come.  Just like in the business world not many recent college graduates are going to compete for the CEO positions their first year. Work hard to gain knowledge so one day you will gain the respect and confidence of the people rewarding the promotions! 

Just my thoughts!

@T_Thomas posted:

As it now stands, for NCAA baseball, 1 plate appearance or 1 pitch thrown (or any other game appearance) will burn the year of  participation.

...unless you can qualify for a medical waiver...

We had kids play and get red shirt status. We were told it was a certain date. I’m unclear.

How did son do in the ab's that he got?

@PitchingFan posted:

How did son do in the ab's that he got?

He had some good ABs, one K, one hit, couple groundouts, two lineouts.  If he would have went 5-6 with 3 HRs things probably would be different haha.  But the reality is he probably didnt show enough to warrant more ABs IMO. 

@PABaseball posted:

What is the benefit of the summer league? The coach is still being deceitful - his actions do not match his words. I would imagine somebody excluded from the travel roster would not be a priority summer placement.

Totally disagree.  Someone that doesn't get the playing time during the season really needs a summer team to hone their skills!  After freshman year, the team/league really doesn't matter as much as playing time. I am glad he already has a place to play.

@keewart posted:

Totally disagree.  Someone that doesn't get the playing time during the season really needs a summer team to hone their skills!  After freshman year, the team/league really doesn't matter as much as playing time. I am glad he already has a place to play.

I did not say he didn't need a summer league. The summer league would be very valuable - he needs reps.

I'm not sure what the benefit of the summer league is to his current situation. It doesn't address the issue of the coach not being upfront and honest about the players role. I believe that is a bigger issue than him not getting enough reps.

Guys 28-35 on the roster are not typically priority summer league placements. Who is going to the Top 10 summer league? The everyday starter or the non traveler? In the vast majority of competitive programs players 28-35 are the players who are not in prime position to become contributors. They're typically walk ons, injuries, or guys who are no longer anticipated to be part of the program long term.

How many non travelers are with the program the following year? How many non travelers end up becoming everyday starters the following year? These aren't digs at TimeFlies either - the situation speaks for itself.

Every non traveler in the past two years at our program is no longer with our program with the exception of one who has pitched 3 innings this season.

@PABaseball posted:

I did not say he didn't need a summer league. The summer league would be very valuable - he needs reps.

I'm not sure what the benefit of the summer league is to his current situation. It doesn't address the issue of the coach not being upfront and honest about the players role. I believe that is a bigger issue than him not getting enough reps.

Guys 28-35 on the roster are not typically priority summer league placements. Who is going to the Top 10 summer league? The everyday starter or the non traveler? In the vast majority of competitive programs players 28-35 are the players who are not in prime position to become contributors. They're typically walk ons, injuries, or guys who are no longer anticipated to be part of the program long term.

How many non travelers are with the program the following year? How many non travelers end up becoming everyday starters the following year? These aren't digs at TimeFlies either - the situation speaks for itself.

Every non traveler in the past two years at our program is no longer with our program with the exception of one who has pitched 3 innings this season.

Lots of good information from everyone and I really appreciate all the feedback.  Right now we are waiting for exit meetings and I fully expect him to not keep his baseball scholarship.  Son is already thinking and planning on what he wants to do next depending on the outcome of the exit meetings.

My biggest question/complaint is how the coaches would literally lie face to face with a kid who is working his butt off and continuing to be a great teammate and only wants honest feedback.  I couldnt do it and be able to sleep at night. 

I want to be very clear I am not at all upset with playtime or opportunities - I understand the process.  We used this site for tons of recruiting information etc so nothing is a surprise except for the seemingly lying that is going on.  But, as others have said, maybe the coach is being truthful - I guess we will know in a few short weeks!

As far as summer plans - if he is "cut", would it still be worth playing in the summer league without having the College affiliation?  I fear the summer team coach would not have as much vested to give him innings, etc.

@TimeFlies posted:

Lots of good information from everyone and I really appreciate all the feedback.  Right now we are waiting for exit meetings and I fully expect him to not keep his baseball scholarship.  Son is already thinking and planning on what he wants to do next depending on the outcome of the exit meetings.

My biggest question/complaint is how the coaches would literally lie face to face with a kid who is working his butt off and continuing to be a great teammate and only wants honest feedback.  I couldnt do it and be able to sleep at night.

I want to be very clear I am not at all upset with playtime or opportunities - I understand the process.  We used this site for tons of recruiting information etc so nothing is a surprise except for the seemingly lying that is going on.  But, as others have said, maybe the coach is being truthful - I guess we will know in a few short weeks!

As far as summer plans - if he is "cut", would it still be worth playing in the summer league without having the College affiliation?  I fear the summer team coach would not have as much vested to give him innings, etc.

@timeflies

Here is my take, it is only worth a cup of tea, I don't like coffee.

Regardless of what has happened in the past, consider the collegiate summer league as a internship.

Based on what league your son has been place can give you a sense of the potential commitment the coach has to your son.

Is it a internship to flip burgers at McDonalds or an Accounting firm (assuming it is your son's major).

He should not take off, he needs to go mash the ball and play stellar defense.

The family should do a cost benefit analysis of the league, if you don't like said league, maybe he can be upgraded.

Don't take your proverbial ball home, remember there are college coaches that might be attending these games, looking for that gem.

Also remember the impact of the MLB Draft, as for it can change the situation for any college.

If the family feels the situation will not change, start looking for options.  Note, I'm seeing more 4 yr coaches getting players from JUCO.

*Remember, the 2020 and 2021 seasons for a JUCO players were exempted.

Thus a high school player will be competing with a JUCO (Potential 2 yrs older with college experience)

Connors State Alumni at 4 yr schools.  Note, we are in the middle of reconciling NAIA then NCAA-D3

@timeflies,

You have a private messages.

OP, I'm willing to bet that you are wrong.  I bet he has a good exit meeting and his scholarship will still be there.  They will say get better at hitting have fun this summer and play hard.  Look forward to seeing you this fall.  Just because you do not play as a freshman does not mean you are going to be cut.  Our team only has 2 freshman studs pitching,  That is the only true freshmen getting any significant time other than a few at bats from 2 other guys but very little to no time in the field and one reliever getting minimal innings.  But I bet we have 10 hearing exactly what your son is hearing and will be keeping their scholarships and coming back next fall unless they choose to go somewhere else.  Getting to play as a freshman in D1 is hard.  Be supportive and I say this with myself in mind, not accusing you of anything, don't be part of the problem.  You have to decide if that is the case or not for you.  Remember every player on the team was a star in HS and travel ball.  We have a kid who turned down 2-3 round money to come and is not seeing the field or batting very much.

@PitchingFan posted:

OP, I'm willing to bet that you are wrong.  I bet he has a good exit meeting and his scholarship will still be there.  They will say get better at hitting have fun this summer and play hard.  Look forward to seeing you this fall.  Just because you do not play as a freshman does not mean you are going to be cut.  Our team only has 2 freshman studs pitching,  That is the only true freshmen getting any significant time other than a few at bats from 2 other guys but very little to no time in the field and one reliever getting minimal innings.  But I bet we have 10 hearing exactly what your son is hearing and will be keeping their scholarships and coming back next fall unless they choose to go somewhere else.  Getting to play as a freshman in D1 is hard.  Be supportive and I say this with myself in mind, not accusing you of anything, don't be part of the problem.  You have to decide if that is the case or not for you.  Remember every player on the team was a star in HS and travel ball.  We have a kid who turned down 2-3 round money to come and is not seeing the field or batting very much.

Agree 100%

This is very true at every level in college baseball. 

@PitchingFan posted:

OP, I'm willing to bet that you are wrong.  I bet he has a good exit meeting and his scholarship will still be there.  They will say get better at hitting have fun this summer and play hard.  Look forward to seeing you this fall.  Just because you do not play as a freshman does not mean you are going to be cut.  Our team only has 2 freshman studs pitching,  That is the only true freshmen getting any significant time other than a few at bats from 2 other guys but very little to no time in the field and one reliever getting minimal innings.  But I bet we have 10 hearing exactly what your son is hearing and will be keeping their scholarships and coming back next fall unless they choose to go somewhere else.  Getting to play as a freshman in D1 is hard.  Be supportive and I say this with myself in mind, not accusing you of anything, don't be part of the problem.  You have to decide if that is the case or not for you.  Remember every player on the team was a star in HS and travel ball.  We have a kid who turned down 2-3 round money to come and is not seeing the field or batting very much.

I am hoping the same as he enjoys the school and enjoys being on the team!  I want to clarify that we (my wife and I) continue speaking encouragement to him and we still watch every game and support the team as well.  My advice to him is to keep working hard and be a great teammate no matter what.  Thanks for the feedback and I will keep everyone posted throughout the next few weeks!

Very good.  Never meant to insinuate anything.  I just know for me sometimes I'm not always part of the solution with my kids because I get frustrated and want them to play more just like them.  My youngest is an important part of the #1 team in the nation but he and I wish he threw more but fully understand his role and why they hold him at times rather than pitch him early.    They have said over and over that they trust him if they ever get in trouble that he is going to make guys swing a bat so they hold him to the end and sometimes he never gets a chance.  Part of being a bullpen guy.  But he said last weekend when I might have been a little frustrated and trying to be positive with/for him.  I'm a part of something special and have my role.  We are winning and I play a role in that every weekend whether I'm in the game or in the bullpen ready to go in the game.  He had been in the bullpen for 6 innings on Friday night and 7 on Saturday.  My response.  Just always keep that in the forefront of your mind.  Enjoy the ride which has been incredible.

@PitchingFan posted:

OP, I'm willing to bet that you are wrong.  I bet he has a good exit meeting and his scholarship will still be there.  They will say get better at hitting have fun this summer and play hard.  Look forward to seeing you this fall.  Just because you do not play as a freshman does not mean you are going to be cut.  Our team only has 2 freshman studs pitching,  That is the only true freshmen getting any significant time other than a few at bats from 2 other guys but very little to no time in the field and one reliever getting minimal innings.  But I bet we have 10 hearing exactly what your son is hearing and will be keeping their scholarships and coming back next fall unless they choose to go somewhere else.  Getting to play as a freshman in D1 is hard.  Be supportive and I say this with myself in mind, not accusing you of anything, don't be part of the problem.  You have to decide if that is the case or not for you.  Remember every player on the team was a star in HS and travel ball.  We have a kid who turned down 2-3 round money to come and is not seeing the field or batting very much.

I think this is true a lot of places. We have multiple guys who turned down money and aren’t getting playtime.  The rub for me is the string of Grad transfers. I can get past the extra year everyone got (sucks but ok), but 5th year guys that were starters, entering the program for one year instead of developing the guys in the program is bs to me.  I do put that on coaches.  You make a commitment to guys and most of them are much less likely to go back on it than the coaches.

@baseballhs posted:

I think this is true a lot of places. We have multiple guys who turned down money and aren’t getting playtime.  The rub for me is the string of Grad transfers. I can get past the extra year everyone got (sucks but ok), but 5th year guys that were starters, entering the program for one year instead of developing the guys in the program is bs to me.  I do put that on coaches.  You make a commitment to guys and most of them are much less likely to go back on it than the coaches.

There are some programs that are good at developing younger players in the program. But IMO there aren’t very many. It takes time, energy, knowledge & desire to help young players get better. It’s much easier and a lot less work to go look in the transfer portal.

Adbono

Development of a young player involves a "plan" and the skilled Coaches.

The "portal" does NOT have a "profile" or Scouting REPORT for the prospective player. As you have experienced the best "development Coaches are at the JC's.

"Self development" involves selecting a strong Summer Team.

"Play me or Trade me"!!!

Bob

My only question in TimeFlies equation is why is a kid perceived to be the next shortstop not traveling with the team as a backup? He’s probably talented enough to backup a few infield positions, pinch hit or pinch run.

I’m not saying he’s not good enough. But as a player I would be analyzing this scenario.

@adbono posted:

There are some programs that are good at developing younger players in the program. But IMO there aren’t very many. It takes time, energy, knowledge & desire to help young players get better. It’s much easier and a lot less work to go look in the transfer portal.

And to me that’s not a coach, it’s a manager.

I think you have to have a mix of in house talent you mature and transfers. We have both but no grad transfers.  Had a catcher grad transfer last year.  We have freshman that are playing, Friday and Sunday starters, transfer portal player who is Saturday starter. But we also have starting second base, shortstop, and third base that are juniors who stayed with the program and are now getting rewarded and two of those are top 150 draft guys for this year.   We have six year guy at first and fifth year guy who was hoping to get drafted last year but did not and transformed himself into a pitcher from an outfielder and now is considered a draft prospect. Then you have kids like my son who have contributed all three years.   It helps to have a good mix of recorded guys, portal transfers, and juco transfers,

@baseballhs posted:

And to me that’s not a coach, it’s a manager.

Does it really matter? The bottom line behind the salary is, “Are you winning enough to keep your job?”

Jerry Tarkanian, UNLV basketball coach said he loved transfers. Someone else had already bought them their car.

We have 4 grad transfers that started at their previous schools, 3 were P5s. Two are starters this year at our school. No kid I know, factored in competing against kids in the program for an extra year, transfer portal kids that could immediately play, and 5th year grad students.  Last year, we had 8 5th year seniors.  I can only assume they will bring in more grad transfers next year. At what point do you develop? And there was no way to predict a school would have these issues prior to COVID.

@baseballhs posted:

We have 4 grad transfers that started at their previous schools, 3 were P5s. Two are starters this year at our school. No kid I know, factored in competing against kids in the program for an extra year, transfer portal kids that could immediately play, and 5th year grad students.  Last year, we had 8 5th year seniors.  I can only assume they will bring in more grad transfers next year. At what point do you develop? And there was no way to predict a school would have these issues prior to COVID.

I believe the the eligibility rules for 2022-23 season are changing with respects to grad transfers.

@baseballhs posted:

And to me that’s not a coach, it’s a manager.

I am with you on this one. There are coaches out there that are recruiting exceptionally young talent, keeping them from accepting other offers and then stocking up on transfers.

The cream eventually rises to the top but you have to get your freshman in the game because they don't learn sitting on the bench. Some coaches recruit on a 3 year cycle, many have no clue.

So here is a good story. 3 best friends who played travel ball with each other decide they want to play on the same team. One wanted to go play at the program where his brother got drafted first round. 2 turn down P5 interest and decide to go to the mid D1 with their buddy. 2 are now in their soph year and played all last year. One is a super 2. He should be drafted very high this year, the other next.

Great story! Smart HC!

Just keep in mind, your talent will follow you wherever you go, and more than likely you will never spend a day on the bench!

JMO

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

I believe the the eligibility rules for 2022-23 season are changing with respects to grad transfers.

That would be great but there are tons in the portal right now.

@TPM posted:

I am with you on this one. There are coaches out there that are recruiting exceptionally young talent, keeping them from accepting other offers and then stocking up on transfers.

The cream eventually rises to the top but you have to get your freshman in the game because they don't learn sitting on the bench. Some coaches recruit on a 3 year cycle, many have no clue.

So here is a good story. 3 best friends who played travel ball with each other decide they want to play on the same team. One wanted to go play at the program where his brother got drafted first round. 2 turn down P5 interest and decide to go to the mid D1 with their buddy. 2 are now in their soph year and played all last year. One is a super 2. He should be drafted very high this year, the other next.

Great story! Smart HC!

Just keep in mind, your talent will follow you wherever you go, and more than likely you will never spend a day on the bench!

JMO

We have a kid from our team last year that  got less than 20 innings. He had been a draft threat out of hs. Transferred over the summer and is now a Friday night starter at a top 25 team with sn ERA under 2.

@baseballhs posted:

We have a kid from our team last year that  got less than 20 innings. He had been a draft threat out of hs. Transferred over the summer and is now a Friday night starter at a top 25 team with sn ERA under 2.

Sometimes you have to be willing to change course in mid-steam for things to work out.

I don’t  dispute that, and I guess that’s when you decide how important baseball is.  I also think it’s unfortunate when kids commit and buy in, make friends, establish classes and graduation route and then have to decide between what they’ve invested and starting over, because coaches don’t have the same level of buy in. It happens everyday but it’s still unfortunate.

Agree 100%

@RJM posted:

My only question in TimeFlies equation is why is a kid perceived to be the next shortstop not traveling with the team as a backup? He’s probably talented enough to backup a few infield positions, pinch hit or pinch run.

I’m not saying he’s not good enough. But as a player I would be analyzing this scenario.

This is the point I'm trying to make. The issue isn't the playing time - the issue is the traveling

There are other backup infielders traveling. The actions would indicate there are others in the plans ahead of TimeFlies Jr.

At the very least there are some uncomfortable questions that need to be addressed.

@RJM and @PABaseball are both on point. Any player that’s important to a program is on the travel squad. To me, the actions of leaving him off the travel squad speak much louder than the words from his coach.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

I believe the the eligibility rules for 2022-23 season are changing with respects to grad transfers.

Can you elaborate on that specifically.?

All the speculation on the integrity of the coach or analogies to other successes, or not, to me, miss the critical person-the player who is not traveling but was placed by the coaching staff, last year, in a pretty good Summer league run by PG.

Players cannot be distracted by what they cannot control. In College and above, they need to have a singular focus when it comes to baseball.

Be early to practice and do all the early work they can. Get an assistant and work late when everyone else is in the showers.

When the team is traveling, be in the cages and hitting until …..

Be the first in the weight room and the last to leave! Be there when the team is traveling.

Get ready for the PG Summer league so the player creates opportunities there, whether they are with the current coaches or with other programs, even if they are not D1!

FYI about D1 travel. 30 allowed to travel and dress out. 27 max roster never changes exception probably injury.

So if there are, let's say 37, on roster. 7 stay home. That would be if the program can afford to fly 30 players out.

@RJM posted:

My only question in TimeFlies equation is why is a kid perceived to be the next shortstop not traveling with the team as a backup? He’s probably talented enough to backup a few infield positions, pinch hit or pinch run.

I’m not saying he’s not good enough. But as a player I would be analyzing this scenario.

@RJM, I agree with you on the overall analysis.  He could play second or third, etc and the head coach even told him in one of his meetings with him that they plan to start moving him around in the Fall.  This really goes back to my confusion about how positive and encouraging the head coach has been versus what I see with how things are going.  They do have a 40 man roster and in their conference only 27 are allowed to travel. 

Some other details that I am getting from son - apparently another Freshman that does not play much at all but does travel had a meeting with the head coach a couple weeks back.  During his meeting the coach told this other Freshman kid that "You and TimeFlies Son are kids that we want in this program and we see you guys making an impact here in the future".  So I dont know what to make of it all and the reality is the exit meetings will tell the final story - other than that it is all conjecture and trying to piece things together HAHA.

Thanks again for the conversation and feedback!

@TPM posted:

FYI about D1 travel. 30 allowed to travel and dress out. 27 max roster never changes exception probably injury.

So if there are, let's say 37, on roster. 7 stay home. That would be if the program can afford to fly 30 players out.

@TPM, thanks for the reply.  I believe his school is carrying 40 on the roster this season and their conference only allows 27 to travel at this time. 

@infielddad posted:

All the speculation on the integrity of the coach or analogies to other successes, or not, to me, miss the critical person-the player who is not traveling but was placed by the coaching staff, last year, in a pretty good Summer league run by PG.

Players cannot be distracted by what they cannot control. In College and above, they need to have a singular focus when it comes to baseball.

Be early to practice and do all the early work they can. Get an assistant and work late when everyone else is in the showers.

When the team is traveling, be in the cages and hitting until …..

Be the first in the weight room and the last to leave! Be there when the team is traveling.

Get ready for the PG Summer league so the player creates opportunities there, whether they are with the current coaches or with other programs, even if they are not D1!

Thanks for this!  Its easy to get caught up in the what-ifs and lose sight of the day-to-day!

I'll add perspective to PitchingFan's points from page 1.

I'm a bit confused by your confusion, TimeFlies.  Coaches manage a whole roster.  Coaches manage and recruit for the present and the future.  Good coaches develop players throughout the process.  Good coaches will instruct.  Good coaches will be critical, will discipline and will be painfully honest at times.  But mostly, good coaches will encourage.  They will provide positive reinforcement to help a player maximize the potential they saw in him when they recruited him.  They will encourage him to embrace his current role and strive for a bigger one going forward.  There are many reasons rosters have more than nine position players.  Part of the coach' responsibility is to continue grooming newer players to be excellent successors to those before them.  This certainly doesn't always translate into those newer/younger players playing or traveling right away. 

Sometimes, the praise, encouragement, instruction, guidance, etc., does translate into eventual significant contributions by the player.  Sometimes it doesn't work out that way.  I've shared probably too often here some of the successes and failures of one of my sons that played and coached college ball.   At one stop, he came on to a big program low on the depth chart, earned his way up in the Fall, even into many Spring starts.  At some point in the season, the hits stopped falling and this eventually led to a rough exit meeting and a transfer.  The coach was encouraging all along the way.  He wasn't lying or being dishonest.  Son's position on the depth chart and position at that exit meeting were all based on his performance as compared to the other players in the system at any given point.  The next year at another school, he received the same amount of praise and encouragement.  This time, his performance warranted staying in the starter role for the duration.  In neither case was the coach lying or misleading.  They try to get the most out of every player on the roster.  Most are not starters.  In my son's case, he continues to have great relationships and mutual respect for both of those coaches.  Heck, he probably has even more for the one who told him he wouldn't have a spot the next season.

If the coach was not encouraging and not talking about your son being a part of the program's future, THAT would be cause for concern.

Best to him and do keep us informed.

Last night I was watching the Florida / Vandy game and a Florida player batting .340 with 12 HRs came up to the plate. The announcer commented on his outstanding sophomore season. He then noted that as a freshman, this player got 4 ABs the entire season.  Clearly this kid can play. Surely he could play last year, but for whatever reason had to wait for his opportunity to prove himself.

I hope your son can stay focused and work hard every day, so he is ready when he gets his shot.

@Texas posted:

Last night I was watching the Florida / Vandy game and a Florida player batting .340 with 12 HRs came up to the plate. The announcer commented on his outstanding sophomore season. He then noted that as a freshman, this player got 4 ABs the entire season.  Clearly this kid can play. Surely he could play last year, but for whatever reason had to wait for his opportunity to prove himself.

I hope your son can stay focused and work hard every day, so he is ready when he gets his shot.

Nice post.

Wyatt Langford played those 4 games as a pinch hitter last year.

Two pitchers in the game for Florida last night are RS freshman.

So many folks say go to a program where you won't sit. However, some programs take the time to develop players and others don't. This happens at all levels, the player and family has to do their homework. You need to understand the coaching staff philosophy before you commit.

JMO

@TPM posted:

Nice post.

Wyatt Langford played those 4 games as a pinch hitter last year.

Two pitchers in the game for Florida last night are RS freshman.

So many folks say go to a program where you won't sit. However, some programs take the time to develop players and others don't. This happens at all levels, the player and family has to do their homework. You need to understand the coaching staff philosophy before you commit.

JMO

One needs to know the roster management strategy of the program are they a build vs buy.  Many are trending toward buying.

Turnover by Position

How many players from previous year (2021) that are not on current roster (2022) with potential reason why by graduation class

What skill position were lost by class

Incoming players,  as you can see they recruited heavily from JUCO, note the 2020 and 2021 was waiver, meaning JUCO players come in with more college game experience without using up eligibility.

Same incoming players by position

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

One needs to know the roster management strategy of the program are they a build vs buy.  Many are trending toward buying.

CBI - I don't know if I would call it a (differentiated) strategy because everybody is doing it..."buying" that is.   It is so much easier and timely to acquire talent than build or develop it based on today's groundrules.   I submit "build vs buy" is an economic outcome reality of Covid and the policies of the NCAA.  Build vs buy is economics 101 as coaches are going to the path of least resistance in their world of winning baseball games.  I see it every day in my line of work, just in a different form of capex or opex.   Organizations have to decide between cost and time (now).   College baseball is no different at this moment.

JMO.

@fenwaysouth posted:

CBI - I don't know if I would call it a (differentiated) strategy because everybody is doing it..."buying" that is.   It is so much easier and timely to acquire talent than build or develop it based on today's groundrules.   I submit "build vs buy" is an economic outcome reality of Covid and the policies of the NCAA.  Build vs buy is economics 101 as coaches are going to the path of least resistance in their world of winning baseball games.  I see it every day in my line of work, just in a different form of capex or opex.   Organizations have to decide between cost and time (now).   College baseball is no different at this moment.

JMO.

@fenwaysouth  Pre-covid depending on the team, there was more of a build and develop mentality.

Note, with respects to NCAA-D1, the numbers seem to be trending up from previous years.

As we reconcile the transfers for the last couple of years, we will understand how much movement occurred pre-covid and post.  How many JUCOs actually go NCAA-D1.

IMHO, Covid and the eligibility rules have provide more human resources into play. Transfer portal has provided the ability to move freely.

Note, everybody might be doing it, but the numbers will differ based on need.

Note, we are talking the same thing, just different wording.  High School Players (families) need to understand the change in the process.

@Texas posted:

Last night I was watching the Florida / Vandy game and a Florida player batting .340 with 12 HRs came up to the plate. The announcer commented on his outstanding sophomore season. He then noted that as a freshman, this player got 4 ABs the entire season.  Clearly this kid can play. Surely he could play last year, but for whatever reason had to wait for his opportunity to prove himself.

I hope your son can stay focused and work hard every day, so he is ready when he gets his shot.

I don't like being so negative but it's important to give all the context. I was watching the same game and had to see why this kid wasn't playing last year. Here are the resumes of the 2021 UF outfield.

LF - 2021 7th round pick

CF - 2022 Draft Top 50 prospect, All American. Skipped senior year of HS to enroll early at UF and started every game as a freshman

RF - 2022 Draft Top 100 prospect. All SEC

The conversation there was probably - you're sitting behind 3 of the best amateur OFs . Learn something and you will inherit the position of the first to go pro. Which is exactly what happened

@PABaseball posted:

The conversation there was probably - you're sitting behind 3 of the best amateur OFs . Learn something and you will inherit the position of the first to go pro. Which is exactly what happened

Well we weren't there so we don't really know the conversation but Langford did an interview and said he came physically unprepared to compete. He changed his diet and transformed his body. Won the LF position.

I think it's a good lesson for parents and players to understand how much work is needed to compete.

A player just can't expect to show up and get into the lineup because he got a scholarship.

Once again any players not in the lineup need to be working on getting ready for summer baseball and stop worrying about what position that they are not playing!

@TPM posted:

.Once again any players not in the lineup need to be working on getting ready for summer baseball and stop worrying about what position that they are not playing!

100% agree. My freshman D3 kid has 2 at bats on the season so far.  He came home for a quick visit for 24 hours, last night, and is in the weight room at a local gym as I type this.  Summer ball will be a good opportunity for him, he’s got a great regional JUCO coach as his manager and 34 games scheduled over June & July.

What I remind my kid is to focus on what he can control: his preparation, individual workouts, getting good grades, his nutrition and his mental game.  If he does all of that, everything else will fall into place over the course of time.

What I think a lot of parents and players overlook is that the grass isn’t always greener by transferring.  It’s not like switching travel programs.  I mean yeah if you are forced out that’s one thing, but it’s often better to stick it out for another year and battle for playing time than jumping to a new school.  

Finding the right fit academically and socially at a school that is the right fit for your talent level is challenging enough, then there is the factor of team culture & chemistry, or lack thereof, and facilities play a role too, plus coaching etc

If you liked a school enough to commit, it’s often better to give it more than one freshman season.  Am I wrong?

@3and2Fastball posted:

What I think a lot of parents and players overlook is that the grass isn’t always greener by transferring.  It’s not like switching travel programs.  I mean yeah if you are forced out that’s one thing, but it’s often better to stick it out for another year and battle for playing time than jumping to a new school.  

Finding the right fit academically and socially at a school that is the right fit for your talent level is challenging enough, then there is the factor of team culture & chemistry, or lack thereof, and facilities play a role too, plus coaching etc

If you liked a school enough to commit, it’s often better to give it more than one freshman season.  Am I wrong?

It depends on what information was available when the decision was made and did you understand said decision?

Who move my cheese? Or maybe the cheese was not the type that you really liked?  Maybe you and the family now know what you don't like.

@3and2Fastball posted:

If you liked a school enough to commit, it’s often better to give it more than one freshman season.  Am I wrong?

Unfortunetly it's not always up to the player to decide if he stays or goes.

I don't know the answer. The most important may be, does the coach develop rather than restock? How many transfers in and out? VERY IMPORTANT!!

If a player decides not to stay after 1 year with no playing time then he has to realize there aren't that many options available to transfer in the same division. Maybe none, especially these days.

Many coaches do look for players that played and stats to prove it (rebuild). Many coaches don't know how to coach. JMO.  They are in it for the wrong reasons. I like the combination of a more mature and seasoned HC, with younger staff that has enthusiasm, endless energy and understands bb metrics. Many older players who are transferring are because their current school doesn't give grad $$. It's easier for a coach to pick up an older player from a good program because they know that coaches coached from that program.

Remember we said it here. A D1 dropping down to a D2, D3, Juco etc. is not a guarantee he will play there either. I am a huge fan of JUCO. Great starting place for so many players.

Reality is that at many programs freshman don't contribute. They just don't.  Doesn't matter what level, this is the reality of today's college baseball.

I could tell stories  about sons recruiting and playing experience but times have changed folks. You could not transfer D1 to D1, Juco programs were not as strong as they are today, APR rates didn't exist,  athletic scholarships were not 25%, no lotteries. In the fall some programs brought in so many players to practice then sent them off to JUCO with the promise they could come back the following year, no covid, no portal.

This is 2022 folks.

One premise remains the same. If you were a high school standout, draft consideration and chose to attend college, you play. Period.

Study rosters and read players bios (my preference to charts). If you arent playing, work hard in the classroom and weight room and cages, pitchers follow your routine set out by pcoach. Instead of being upset, afraid of losing your scholarship, take care of business, get ready for summer and next season even if knowing you might not be there.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but if players and their parents understand about the freshman experience and college baseball, like 3and2, life will be much easier.

Remember always that your player can only control what he/ she can control.

***One premise remains the same. If you were a high school standout, draft consideration and chose to attend college, you play. Period.***

In 2022, this isn't true anymore.  I know several boys who turned down the draft and didn't play freshman year or much so far sophomore year.   One of the highest 2021 recruits this year turned down the draft and was told at Christmas that he would not play, he transferred to a juco.  Another guy turned down 2-3 round money and played little last year and doesn't look promising this year.  Two of the top draft threats at South Carolina got very little time last year and transferred out. My son could have gone out of hs and made the decision that he wasn't ready mentally, he has played very little.  We have 4 grad transfers that were P5 starters. It just isn't playing out like it did prior to covid and the portal.  That said...my advice to my son is still the same as you suggested, although now its more about allegiance to himself. Control what you can, work hard, get your bullpens in even if opportunities aren't given...even if it means throwing into a net, get ready for summer, and then go kick a**.

I hear what you are saying but I stand by my statement.

Perhaps the players  weren't as far along in their development?  Not enough money?

What is the recruiting philosophy of the program or don't they have one for the players that gave up the draft?  Development or restock?

One thing I forgot to mention. Somes coaches tend to load up on players because they don't want them to go to the competition. That's pretty common in a LOT of specific geographical areas with lots of talented players and programs.

Would you agree?

TPM and others, how many prospective players watch the College team play a game? During the games did they interview the parents of the current team is players. What questions would you ask the parents.?

Why, when, where, what and how?

Bob

@Consultant posted:

TPM and others, how many prospective players watch the College team play a game? During the games did they interview the parents of the current team is players. What questions would you ask the parents.?

Why, when, where, what and how?

Bob

I don't know Bob that's a good question. I would hope many.

But just as important, coach should have a plan and player should ask what it is.  Bringing in a boatload of transfers doesn't always cut it.

JMO

@TPM posted:

I don't know Bob that's a good question. I would hope many.

But just as important, coach should have a plan and player should ask what it is.  Bringing in a boatload of transfers doesn't always cut it.

JMO

The plan is to get the best players that can help their program.  If I'm  a coach, do I go after a Covid JUCO Player, who already has 2 years of college life, lets say (70 games) in 2 years, and has 4 yrs of eligibility Or a HS Player.

Note, we haven't done a deep review of the juco pipeline, but on quick glance it looks like the numbers have been increasing since 2019.

As we are all aware, the 2021 season allowed the 4 yr schools to have unlimited roster, thus many took advantage of the opportunity.

https://collegebaseballinsight...-pipeline-dashboard/

Note, as the JUCO coaches have improved their relationships with the 4 yr programs, they can easily sell a more finished product to a 4 yr school.

IMHO, The live streaming of JUCO games, provides a clear advantage of a players characteristic vs a HS players showcasing.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

The plan is to get the best players that can help their program.  If I'm  a coach, do I go after a Covid JUCO Player, who already has 2 years of college life, lets say (70 games) in 2 years, and has 4 yrs of eligibility Or a HS Player.

Note, we haven't done a deep review of the juco pipeline, but on quick glance it looks like the numbers have been increasing since 2019.

As we are all aware, the 2021 season allowed the 4 yr schools to have unlimited roster, thus many took advantage of the opportunity.

https://collegebaseballinsight...-pipeline-dashboard/

Note, as the JUCO coaches have improved their relationships with the 4 yr programs, they can easily sell a more finished product to a 4 yr school.

IMHO, The live streaming of JUCO games, provides a clear advantage of a players characteristic vs a HS players showcasing.

Yes. You get the best players to help you win.  But obviously, coaches are out there all summer long looking for talented HS players.  That still remains the main pipeline for programs.

Son was at a successful mid year  D1 and was able to compete every year because they brought in JUCO transfers. Not a program where many are drafted.   It's not filled with HS superstars. I think there is one 4 year college transfer now, maybe 2, not sure. Great JUCO pipeline here in Florida. 

The Sunshine State, also has many super talented HS seniors, or many  who do end up at either one of the P5 programs or perhaps out of state and many contribute beginning first year.

What's going on in fall practice? 

I do agree that P5 programs are bringing in a lot of P5 transfers.  I don't blame this as much on covid as the one time transfer rule for D1. JMO.

How many times have people here said, players should be able to transfer if a coach leaves for a better opportunity. Well here it is.

But for a player that considered the draft vs college and took the second choice did they discuss a development plan with the coach?   Are they playing?

Developing talent is a skill. Not all programs can do that.

Just sayin.

@TPM posted:

Yes. You get the best players to help you win.  But obviously, coaches are out there all summer long looking for talented HS players.  That still remains the main pipeline for programs.

Son was at a successful mid year  D1 and was able to compete every year because they brought in JUCO transfers. Not a program where many are drafted.   It's not filled with HS superstars. I think there is one 4 year college transfer now, maybe 2, not sure. Great JUCO pipeline here in Florida.

The Sunshine State, also has many super talented HS seniors, or many  who do end up at either one of the P5 programs or perhaps out of state and many contribute beginning first year.

What's going on in fall practice?

I do agree that P5 programs are bringing in a lot of P5 transfers.  I don't blame this as much on covid as the one time transfer rule for D1. JMO.

How many times have people here said, players should be able to transfer if a coach leaves for a better opportunity. Well here it is.

But for a player that considered the draft vs college and took the second choice did they discuss a development plan with the coach?   Are they playing?

Developing talent is a skill. Not all programs can do that.

Just sayin.

IMO , with access to live stream and other insights, the pipeline to 4 year schools will shift based on region.

The talented high school player is one year out with limited sample size.

There is one thing that we are overlooking, the HS Stud that didn't have grades, thus didn't have an NLI from a p5 in order to use as draft leverage.

With no NLI in hand, what are the odds that he gets drafted high out of high school?

On another note:

Below is a quick look at some of the SEC schools with the incoming players for the 2022 season.

Column:

Overall number of new players

4 year transfers

2 year transfers

CBI,

baseballhs had mentioned  previous posts regarding HS talented players that turned down the draft and not playing. In baseballhs's experience this is something being witnessed first hand.

I am wondering where is the development? 

I am not really into the chart thing.

Sorry.

My opinions are different than some on this topic. But relative to “development”, at almost all competitive D1 programs I say there is none. CBI seems to share that opinion (correct me if I’m wrong). Covid has changed all of that for the worse. The axiom has forever been “go where you are loved.” But IMO that has changed too. If you want to get on the field you better go where you are needed. The problem is that no competitive D1 or D2 programs need any HS grads. Literally. They have no need for them - and yet some are still recruiting as many as they always have. Most of them show up on campus and immediately are at a competitive disadvantage b/c their position is stacked with more experienced players ahead of them. So who is going to work with these 18 year old freshmen to make them better players. Position coaches? Nope. They are busy working with the guys that can help them win now. How about older players? Probably not. They have their own game to worry about. And god forbid you are a lowly incoming freshman P and there is no sidearmer currently on the staff. If that’s the case guess who gets turned into one. Is that the best thing for that kid? Maybe but maybe not. My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

An example of what has changed and made life as a baseball player impossible to predict.  Pre COVID, a kid gets drafted out of hs  in later rounds. Turns it down, but clearly a talented player. He’s a catcher, and walks into a scenario where he will likely sit a year until starter graduates.  Then COVID happens and the catcher returns for 21 as a fifth year. Kid sit again…but next year, he is up.  Nope, school brings in a  grad transfer who is the new starter.  Only because of the grad players injury, the kid finally gets a shot and is doing very well. Grad is about to come off injury, so we will see how that plays out. There is zero way to predict, and this kid is good and would have been wasted for a 3rd year.

Perfect real life example of what’s going on at competitive D1 programs. Thank you @baseballhs. This isn’t an isolated incident by the way. It’s happening all over college baseball. More at the top D1 schools than anywhere else but no player is immune to it happening to them.

@adbono posted:

My opinions are different than some on this topic. But relative to “development”, at almost all competitive D1 programs I say there is none. CBI seems to share that opinion (correct me if I’m wrong). Covid has changed all of that for the worse. The axiom has forever been “go where you are loved.” But IMO that has changed too. If you want to get on the field you better go where you are needed. The problem is that no competitive D1 or D2 programs need any HS grads. Literally. They have no need for them - and yet some are still recruiting as many as they always have. Most of them show up on campus and immediately are at a competitive disadvantage b/c their position is stacked with more experienced players ahead of them. So who is going to work with these 18 year old freshmen to make them better players. Position coaches? Nope. They are busy working with the guys that can help them win now. How about older players? Probably not. They have their own game to worry about. And god forbid you are a lowly incoming freshman P and there is no sidearmer currently on the staff. If that’s the case guess who gets turned into one. Is that the best thing for that kid? Maybe but maybe not. My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

@adbono  you are reading the same tea leaves.

Depending on what tribe you belong to the journey to 4 year school may or may not be different in the next 2 to 4 years

Tribes

• JUCO
• Post Grad
• High School

The Cheese has been moved for the High School Grad

Note, what I've seen on this website is that "Players and Families need to do their Research", what are they researching?  Are they researching based on old assumptions?

Most don't have the attention span to perform the research.  Most are visual learners, whereas after a high level glance they may or may not dig deeper.

Most consumption is via mobile device and the information is pushed to them.

@TPM the chart thing is simple, last year certain SEC schools went heavy into the JUCO pool in order to procure talent for the 2022 season.

Is the 4yr school changing their recruiting strategy or Is this an anomaly or the new normal, only time will tell.

The list (not chart) below, is telling me there may be a climate change,

Again, this could be a 3 to 5 yr event due to JUCO players getting 2 free years of College Baseball.

@adbono posted:

Perfect real life example of what’s going on at competitive D1 programs. Thank you @baseballhs. This isn’t an isolated incident by the way. It’s happening all over college baseball. More at the top D1 schools than anywhere else but no player is immune to it happening to them.

@adbono a form of free agency has come to college baseball, is it any different than how travel baseball has exponential expanded?

The disruption has reached the mainland.

@CollegebaseballInsights wrote, “Again, this could be a 3 to 5 year event due to JuCo players getting 2 free years of COLLEGE BASEBALL.”

And then he supported it with data. This is 100% correct. Anyone that thinks differently doesn’t understand what is happening at the most competitive college baseball programs.

What is being described here is effecting the D3 level, too

Kids who are Juniors this season still have 2 more years of eligibility after this year.  More and more D3 teams will be bringing in JUCO transfers in the next few years, too.

@3and2Fastball posted:

What is being described here is effecting the D3 level, too

Kids who are Juniors this season still have 2 more years of eligibility after this year.  More and more D3 teams will be bringing in JUCO transfers in the next few years, too.

To a lesser degree, but you are correct. D3 UT-Dallas is right in my backyard. I see a few games every year. Historically they have never had many transfers on their roster. The past two years they have had 6 or so - and they have been a noticeably better team.  Some Grad, some JuCo, some bounce downs.

@adbono posted:

To a lesser degree, but you are correct. D3 UT-Dallas is right in my backyard. I see a few games every year. Historically they have never had many transfers on their roster. The past two years they have had 6 or so - and they have been a noticeably better team.  Some Grad, some JuCo, some bounce downs.

There are some D3’s that have very very few JUCO transfers, especially the HA schools.  It’s very very tough to get through admissions transferring from a JUCO program to a HA.  Because of that the private HA’s are at a competitive disadvantage in D3 in recruiting but some are making up for it with facilities and academic scholarships.  It’ll be interesting to watch it play out over the next several years.

My son’s D3 team has played a few Top 25 teams this year, that really brought to home the wide disparity of talent levels among various D3 teams

There is a wide disparity of talent among teams at all levels of college baseball.

@3and2Fastball posted:

There are some D3’s that have very very few JUCO transfers, especially the HA schools.  It’s very very tough to get through admissions transferring from a JUCO program to a HA.  Because of that the private HA’s are at a competitive disadvantage in D3 in recruiting but some are making up for it with facilities and academic scholarships.  It’ll be interesting to watch it play out over the next several years.

My son’s D3 team has played a few Top 25 teams this year, that really brought to home the wide disparity of talent levels among various D3 teams

Mostly a regional thing.  This is the 2021 JUCO Pipeline for Brookdale (NJCAA-D3), send most players to D3 schools in tri-state area.

We are currently working on 2022 NAIA Juco pipeline reconciliation.

From a NAIA perspective, we've completed the South Region and a midway through the Midwest.  So if you were to look at the free juco report, and sort on the NAIA column, currently it would probably show the JUCOs in the south having more representation in the pipeline

Note, NCAA-D1 and D2 have been reconciled for 2022.

@adbono posted:

My opinions are different than some on this topic. But relative to “development”, at almost all competitive D1 programs I say there is none. CBI seems to share that opinion (correct me if I’m wrong). Covid has changed all of that for the worse. The axiom has forever been “go where you are loved.” But IMO that has changed too. If you want to get on the field you better go where you are needed. The problem is that no competitive D1 or D2 programs need any HS grads. Literally. They have no need for them - and yet some are still recruiting as many as they always have. Most of them show up on campus and immediately are at a competitive disadvantage b/c their position is stacked with more experienced players ahead of them. So who is going to work with these 18 year old freshmen to make them better players. Position coaches? Nope. They are busy working with the guys that can help them win now. How about older players? Probably not. They have their own game to worry about. And god forbid you are a lowly incoming freshman P and there is no sidearmer currently on the staff. If that’s the case guess who gets turned into one. Is that the best thing for that kid? Maybe but maybe not. My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

I know that you are familiar with what goes on in Texas. How can you make a statement that there is no development going on in big competitive programs? Have you researched every one of them to know this. Texas has good baseball. They aren't developing their players? What's going on?

Check out the #5 RPI in the country. University of Miami.

Quick look 22 HS players, 8 JUCO, 4, 4 year transfers, 2 of them from FL programs. They aren't winning obviously  because of grad transfers, that's for sure. I do know that a few of these players had opportunities to go pro. They chose a solid respected program to improve their status, obviously.

Almost every player has contributed this season. A large portion from HS.

Is this winners luck or player development?

Of course I have not researched every program. But I bet CBI is pretty close to that. There are exceptions to any statement that I make and my comments usually allow for that. It’s possible for anyone to adopt a contrarian attitude about most any post if they are inclined to do so.

@Consultant posted:

TPM and others, how many prospective players watch the College team play a game? During the games did they interview the parents of the current team is players. What questions would you ask the parents.?

Why, when, where, what and how?

Bob

When my son was fourteen I started watching college games. I sat on the visiting team side so each visit would be a different perspective. I asked, “How did you son end up here? Where else did he consider?” Then I shut up and listened. Parents like to talk about their successful kids.

@adbono posted:

My opinions are different than some on this topic. But relative to “development”, at almost all competitive D1 programs I say there is none. CBI seems to share that opinion (correct me if I’m wrong). Covid has changed all of that for the worse. The axiom has forever been “go where you are loved.” But IMO that has changed too. If you want to get on the field you better go where you are needed. The problem is that no competitive D1 or D2 programs need any HS grads. Literally. They have no need for them - and yet some are still recruiting as many as they always have. Most of them show up on campus and immediately are at a competitive disadvantage b/c their position is stacked with more experienced players ahead of them. So who is going to work with these 18 year old freshmen to make them better players. Position coaches? Nope. They are busy working with the guys that can help them win now. How about older players? Probably not. They have their own game to worry about. And god forbid you are a lowly incoming freshman P and there is no sidearmer currently on the staff. If that’s the case guess who gets turned into one. Is that the best thing for that kid? Maybe but maybe not. My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

Not completely disagreeing but give me examples of top 25 teams that are not developing guys.  When I look at SEC teams, my most knowledge, they are playing a lot of young guys and also developing guys.  There are a lot of older guys getting playing time and not that many transfers.   Again, I may be wrong but just looking at the SEC, ACC, and Big 12 teams which is the ones I know best.

@PitchingFan posted:

Not completely disagreeing but give me examples of top 25 teams that are not developing guys.  When I look at SEC teams, my most knowledge, they are playing a lot of young guys and also developing guys.  There are a lot of older guys getting playing time and not that many transfers.   Again, I may be wrong but just looking at the SEC, ACC, and Big 12 teams which is the ones I know best.

Will do that in a PM

I would like to see those examples also.

RJM

your are very perspective, also ask , would you return”? Do over”,

question: why parents do not ask for professional evaluations for their son’s  six tools and skills and baseball intellect!
Bob

@PitchingFan posted:

Not completely disagreeing but give me examples of top 25 teams that are not developing guys.  

Our program is one of them. While mine has been fortunate enough to play - he was also a contributor from day 1. And while he has contributed, it has not been as a result of him being coached up, he just swam when thrown in the water. Nobody has sat him down and broke things down with him. Nobody has worked with him to change grips, try something new. It was basically get on the mound and don't fail. Those who couldn't perform are gone, those who no longer perform will be gone, and those on the rise at lower levels and other programs will be the ones replacing them. When he wants to work on something he comes home and sees his pitching coach from HS.

I saw a former travel teammate was doing well for a ranked D1 and read on article on the team. This is a quote from the coach.

"A lot of times, players, they are what they are and sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s not. You leave them alone and if they are good enough, they play."

That is crazy and roughly translates to: I don't have time to work with kids, they either figure it out and play or they don't.

Two kids who were drafted out of HS in our program, one of which turned down 3rd Rd money, were cut this offseason after getting a combined total of 20 ABS in two seasons between the two of them. Those kids are 1000% good enough to play for us. They're both at jucos now hitting over .400. One committed to an SEC school, the other deciding between 3 P5s. All somebody had to do was work with those kids. Instead they brought in grad transfers and juco players who didn't need work and they were gone, just like that.

@adbono posted:

My contention is that in today’s world nobody is helping freshmen players at D1s that aren’t contributing - especially at P5 schools.  They are left to their own devices. Most stagnate, regress, and lose their confidence. Right now the deck is stacked against the HS grad worse than ever before. If you don’t recognize that, and change your strategy accordingly, you are setting your son (and yourself) up for a huge disappointment. So what’s the answer? For the next few years the answer is Junior College. But you better do your homework there too. Most JuCos are way better with developing pitchers or position players. One or the other. Hardly ever both. Lots of homework to do. One thing that’s getting on my last nerve is seeing scouting services (VTool, PBR, etc.) constantly telling HS players they are D1 guys just to make a splash on social media. It sets unrealistic expectations. The whole situation is a mess created by the NCAA and their infinite (lack of) wisdom. Only people who get realistic in a hurry and really do their homework are likely to have a good experience.

100% spot on. It's actually bizarre how little development there can be in programs. Even in the programs where there is some actual coaching being done it appears it's only for the top 20-25 guys.

For many you get September of your freshman year as an audition. After that you either have eyes on you or you are taking up space.

@adbono posted:

Of course I have not researched every program. But I bet CBI is pretty close to that. There are exceptions to any statement that I make and my comments usually allow for that. It’s possible for anyone to adopt a contrarian attitude about most any post if they are inclined to do so.

@TPM In many ways, you @adbono and many on this board are saying the same thing.  "Do your research, one size does not fit all"

Like any bell curve, how colleges build their rosters will vary based on philosophy, availability of talent, $$$, etc.

Covid-19 and subsequent policies implemented by the governing bodies have influenced how coaches build their rosters.

Let's first agree "graduation class is not consistent in most cases".

If the player transferred from a  JUCO, is he listed as a "FR" or "C-FR".  If he is a "C-FR", does it mean he did 1 or 2 years of JUCO?

Question: What is the Definition of "Development"?

• Game Reps ???  Midweek vs weekend,  conference vs non-conference
• Competition Summer League playing with and against your peers

I'm going to go out on a limb and say everybody develops, the pool they draw from vary.

As @adbono  and I are stating, HS players are working against an uneven playing field, the JUCO player in many cases is getting 2 years of college experience.

Anyway, good dialog, we will find examples that will sway this conversation in many directions.

Again, there are some interesting patterns developing, and if I see one more tweet of a player committing, well ...

Show me the NLI, but this is the world as it is today

Note, I will share information where relevant.  I don't know what I don't know, but seeing the policies enacted by NCAA, etc  made us pivot and create the Team Roster Turnover and JUCO Pipeline Insights.

Regards

It's funny how similar this is to complaints about HS baseball where some coaches develop players but some do not.  And in those high school cases, the answer always is, find outside instructors and work year-round with them, get better by yourself and then be so good they have to put you on the field.   PABaseball has just said that is what his son does.  Is that the expected model in college, too?

@anotherparent posted:

It's funny how similar this is to complaints about HS baseball where some coaches develop players but some do not.  And in those cases, the answer always is, find outside instructors and work year-round with them, get better by yourself and then be so good they have to put you on the field.   PABaseball has just said that is what his son does.  Is that the expected model in college, too?

I think the problem begins with expectations. As players move up the baseball ladder it’s logical for them (and their parents) to believe that the coaching gets better - and that each player receives the same amount of attention from the coaches. And it doesn’t work that way. Not even close. College coaches are going to focus their attention on the players that they believe can help them win today. I think that point has been well supported by posters that have kids playing in D1 programs right now. So the issue is that reality doesn’t match expectations - which results in disappointment. After you get over the shock and have accepted the reality of the situation you better figure out a way to get better or you get left behind.