@PitchingFan posted:

I will again reiterate that is not the case everywhere.  I'm sure there are some at the bottom of our pitching list that would say they did not get help.  We have 12 guys who have pitched at least 13 innings this spring at UT.  With three of those being freshmen and two are weekend starters.  Team era of 2.36 and it just went up over the past 2 weekends.  Son has always gotten help with changing pitches and grips to get more out of his pitches.  I think that is the same for at least all 12 guys.  I know some of you will say what about the others.  I would say many of them have gotten help but with 1 pitching coach there is only so much time that can be devoted each year to getting guys where they need to be.  Much of son's work after consultation with PC was on his own with tweeking during sessions.  Our PC watches almost every bullpen session and they also video every session.  Much of it depends on the player's desire to get where he wants to be.  Not all cases but many that I know of they are just not ready for the jump from HS to college.  For some reason, parents don't realize how big JUCO can be in development.  It is not needed for all but is good for most.

I will again reiterate that what you are describing at the University of Tennessee is the exception and not the rule. The PC at UT is one of the nation’s best and it appears that he cares about all the players under his watch - which is also the exception and not the rule.

If a team carries 20-22 pitchers only so many can get bullpens or development.  There is only so much time available for bullpens and not enough coaches (in D3 at least).   Many pitchers need to figure it out themselves. It’s unfortunate but also in many ways understandable if you think about it logically.  However for the student athlete it’s an mainly an emotional response which I understand too.  The whole process is a mental grind on top of the skill needed to succeed.

@TimeFlies posted:

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK.

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

@Timeflies

I was just listening to the following twitter space with Casey Dill, IMHO it is worth the listen.

https://twitter.com/CaseyDill2.../1526366673330053122

My son’s view was there were 6-8 locked in studs, 6-8 who were unlikely to contribute and everyone else was fighting for playing time. He saw some very talented teammates not stay physically and mentally ready for their opportunity. For those approximately 20 players it was more about mental toughness than talent. Everyone had the potential talent.

@adbono posted:

I will again reiterate that what you are describing at the University of Tennessee is the exception and not the rule. The PC at UT is one of the nation’s best and it appears that he cares about all the players under his watch - which is also the exception and not the rule.

I agree.  But I just want to make sure people understand that there are exceptions to the rule.  Some coaches really care about their players and their futures.  Our head coach said last week in an interview that it is never acceptable for a coach to overthrow a pitcher to win a ball game.   He also started our flamethrower so scouts could see him start to help his draft stock    

@PitchingFan posted:

I agree.  But I just want to make sure people understand that there are exceptions to the rule.  Some coaches really care about their players and their futures.  Our head coach said last week in an interview that it is never acceptable for a coach to overthrow a pitcher to win a ball game.   He also started our flamethrower so scouts could see him start to help his draft stock    

Fair enough. But there are not near enough exceptions. I believe that people’s expectations are that they will get what in reality is the exception. Then when they get the rule it’s a tremendous disappointment.

I agree but the expectation should be the exception but it is not.  You and I cannot say it enough on here do your due diligence. Investigate, look at stats, talk to current players and parents.   My son had a lot of things fall into place for him to get the innings he has    He does not have the crazy velo, but he does have the ability to throw five pitches with un unreal location.     I don’t know that that will ever get him to the next level, MLB, but it has been very good for him in the SEC.    We did our research and knew that Frank Anderson has a great history with LHPs and does an incredible job of getting guys ready for MLB.  Plus when son was recruited there was really only two LHPs at UT.  

There was very heralded (now retired) head coach at a usually ranked program in Southern Texas. He had a reputation for having his stud pitchers go in the first round. He also rode these future #1’s like a pack mule to the CWS. They all had arm surgery early in their minor league starts.

@PitchingFan posted:

I agree but the expectation should be the exception but it is not.  You and I cannot say it enough on here do your due diligence. Investigate, look at stats, talk to current players and parents.   My son had a lot of things fall into place for him to get the innings he has    He does not have the crazy velo, but he does have the ability to throw five pitches with un unreal location.     I don’t know that that will ever get him to the next level, MLB, but it has been very good for him in the SEC.    We did our research and knew that Frank Anderson has a great history with LHPs and does an incredible job of getting guys ready for MLB.  Plus when son was recruited there was really only two LHPs at UT.  

You and I tend to say the same things but in different ways.

@adbono posted:

To a lesser degree, but you are correct. D3 UT-Dallas is right in my backyard. I see a few games every year. Historically they have never had many transfers on their roster. The past two years they have had 6 or so - and they have been a noticeably better team.  Some Grad, some JuCo, some bounce downs.

I see what you are talking about

Texas-Dallas incoming transfers (2022):  Overall -> 4 yr ->  JUCO

Previous Season (2021)

@TimeFlies posted:

All good things must come to an end - Update:

So we visited with our son this past weekend before their last home series.  As we sat at breakfast I could tell something was bothering him so I finally asked him "what was he thinking about?"  He got a bit emotional and told us he had put a lot of thought into things and that he just doesn't love the game anymore and doesn't feel he can continue playing.  He wanted to talk to the head coach on Monday morning and let him know but we encouraged him to go through his exit meetings and that could help clear things up for him moving forward (keep in mind my initial post on this thread about the meetings he had had with the coaches).

He had his exit meeting yesterday around lunch and was basically told "we love you in the program but don't see a lot of opportunity for you moving forward as we have several JUCO and a few fifth year transfers moving in".  That helped solidify his decision.

I was hoping he might consider transferring to a JUCO or a local D2 to continue playing but at this point he is pretty discouraged and has lost the motivation to continue putting in the work.  Maybe it changes in a few weeks, but he is also interested in pursuing a business degree at a large university where he can enjoy the student life.

All that being said, and hindsight is always 20/20, I think the JUCO route for most high schoolers is definitely a great option in todays market (unless you are a true stud).  I think if he had went to a JUCO and was able to garner play time and more opportunities he may still want to continue playing.  But, that isnt where we are and thats OK.

Thanks all for the valuable information and if anything changes I will post an update!

Best of luck to your son.  Give him a couple weeks.
Ask him to pretend he is 40 years old with family..job..etc and you are going over to his house visiting the grandkids.

and then you ask him :

"would you make the same decision to quit baseball if you could have a do over ?"

it is easy to say for most of us what that answer would be...
they must figure it out for themselves.
but have the end in mind.
leaving anything on the table is difficult and most do not realize it until later on.

@PitchingFan posted:

I will again reiterate that is not the case everywhere.  I'm sure there are some at the bottom of our pitching list that would say they did not get help.  We have 12 guys who have pitched at least 13 innings this spring at UT.  With three of those being freshmen and two are weekend starters.  Team era of 2.36 and it just went up over the past 2 weekends.  Son has always gotten help with changing pitches and grips to get more out of his pitches.  I think that is the same for at least all 12 guys.  I know some of you will say what about the others.  I would say many of them have gotten help but with 1 pitching coach there is only so much time that can be devoted each year to getting guys where they need to be.

This is kind of the point. 12 guys getting innings and help from the PC. Only problem is there are what, 20-23 pitchers on the roster? Would you say the other end of the pitching staff is being put in a good position to excel?

You guys are great and I'm not around the program enough like you are to say for sure but my guess would be that there are plenty of guys in that program who are not having nearly the same experience as your son.

Have you read the history of Mike Musana? A PA native and a student of the game with a photographic memory.

Bob

pre or post roids and HGH?

@PABaseball posted:

This is kind of the point. 12 guys getting innings and help from the PC. Only problem is there are what, 20-23 pitchers on the roster? Would you say the other end of the pitching staff is being put in a good position to excel?

You guys are great and I'm not around the program enough like you are to say for sure but my guess would be that there are plenty of guys in that program who are not having nearly the same experience as your son.

I would agree that there are 8 guys who are not having the experience my son is but I would also say that when you play for a top 10 team you have to produce when given the opportunity.  That is the problem with being on a top team.  Everyone wants to be on the team but the pressure to compete every day for a spot is incredible.  We have 5 guys batting over .300 who can't get at bats and one with 9 home runs and another with 10.  I told my son when he kept saying he wanted to go SEC.  You will have to beat out 10 guys wearing the same uniform to get on the field to beat the guys wearing the opposite uniform.  And that has held true.  For us if you can't throw strikes you don't pitch.  Walks will keep you out of the lineup in a heartbeat.  But when you throw strikes you better not give up runs because the team era was sub .200 for most of the season.  The guys not getting innings could probably pitch at most schools and would be the studs at mid majors.  Part of the playing with the best against the best.  I'm sure several will move on after this year and land somewhere nice.  Son's roomate and best friend freshman year was one of those guys and landed about where he should and is playing CF and pitching.  Loves life.

I did ask son last night and all the guys get help from PC.  Some put in the extra time and some don't.  Son stayed after for 3-4 hours every day his freshman year from day one through Covid.  He did all he could so during the shutdown and was ready to walk back in the next fall and compete.  He threw bullpens twice a week, found guys to throw live to, and had a small group that hit 2-3 times a week.  Some do more than others and get more attention which I understand.  No different than in life as an adult.  Some people get more attention from the boss than others.  Some get promoted and some get left behind.  Some love their job and some move on to another.  May not be fair but it is life.

I will also say that you guys talk about the college life other than baseball but that is the case for everyone.  Some see the future, son wants to play MLB and then coach, and he does not do the normal student life stuff but concentrates on baseball.  He does have a girlfriend but not the parties and extra stuff.  He is focused on his goals and works every day to get there.  There are many on his team just like him.

@PitchingFan posted:

I would agree that there are 8 guys who are not having the experience my son is but I would also say that when you play for a top 10 team you have to produce when given the opportunity.  That is the problem with being on a top team.  Everyone wants to be on the team but the pressure to compete every day for a spot is incredible.  We have 5 guys batting over .300 who can't get at bats and one with 9 home runs and another with 10.  I told my son when he kept saying he wanted to go SEC.  You will have to beat out 10 guys wearing the same uniform to get on the field to beat the guys wearing the opposite uniform.  And that has held true.  For us if you can't throw strikes you don't pitch.  Walks will keep you out of the lineup in a heartbeat.  But when you throw strikes you better not give up runs because the team era was sub .200 for most of the season.  The guys not getting innings could probably pitch at most schools and would be the studs at mid majors.  Part of the playing with the best against the best.  I'm sure several will move on after this year and land somewhere nice.  Son's roomate and best friend freshman year was one of those guys and landed about where he should and is playing CF and pitching.  Loves life.

I did ask son last night and all the guys get help from PC.  Some put in the extra time and some don't.  Son stayed after for 3-4 hours every day his freshman year from day one through Covid.  He did all he could so during the shutdown and was ready to walk back in the next fall and compete.  He threw bullpens twice a week, found guys to throw live to, and had a small group that hit 2-3 times a week.  Some do more than others and get more attention which I understand.  No different than in life as an adult.  Some people get more attention from the boss than others.  Some get promoted and some get left behind.  Some love their job and some move on to another.  May not be fair but it is life.

I will also say that you guys talk about the college life other than baseball but that is the case for everyone.  Some see the future, son wants to play MLB and then coach, and he does not do the normal student life stuff but concentrates on baseball.  He does have a girlfriend but not the parties and extra stuff.  He is focused on his goals and works every day to get there.  There are many on his team just like him.

There are but so many innings available.

Question, in your son's freshman year, he stayed an extra 15 to 20 hours,  has he stated to you what he gained?

Was it more mental than physical?  Better understanding of situational pitching? etc.

"Sometimes one must take the straight line crooked" ~August Martin Fences

good stuff

Physical and mental.  He worked on getting so much more location of offspeed pitches.  He realized early that fall that a pitch over the middle of the plate he could by with in HS but not in the SEC.  He also worked on hitting as he was a two-way guy back then so he worked on his switch hitting.  All the stuff we talk about changed that to him realizing that to be the first LHP out of the bullpen he had to be better.  he still swings a bat in practice and in the cage but has not swung in a game even though coach still tells him to keep swinging.  He is one of the only switch hitters on the team.

@PitchingFan posted:

Physical and mental.  He worked on getting so much more location of offspeed pitches.  He realized early that fall that a pitch over the middle of the plate he could by with in HS but not in the SEC.  He also worked on hitting as he was a two-way guy back then so he worked on his switch hitting.  All the stuff we talk about changed that to him realizing that to be the first LHP out of the bullpen he had to be better.  he still swings a bat in practice and in the cage but has not swung in a game even though coach still tells him to keep swinging.  He is one of the only switch hitters on the team.

Thanks for sharing.

Quick Update:

Son is home and after a few days he talked to my wife and I about wanting to continue playing baseball and giving it another shot.  He was pretty discouraged after everything that took place, but he is also aware that the changing landscape in college baseball is tough for the young guys.  He told me several of his friends at other D1 programs had 5 at-bats or fewer during the season.

All that to say he has entered the transfer portal, and about 10 minutes after his email came through letting him know he was officially in the portal, the local D2 coach texted him and then called to offer him a spot along with academic and athletic money.  He has played a lot of summer ball at this field so they have seen him many many times.  He is pretty excited about the opportunity as they are a top 25 D2 program and he could live at home if he chooses.  He is also getting a lot of texts and phone calls from JUCO programs and is weighing all his options.

I found it interesting as the coach at the D2 program admitted they have started saving athletic money for this time of the year as they are using the portal more and more to recruit.  I am guessing this is happening more and more as coaches try to remain competitive with other programs that are also recruiting out of the portal? 

My only though about him going the JUCO route at this point would be the possibility of staying there two years and then only having one remaining year of eligibility versus taking the D2 offer and hopefully having a good three year career there while getting his degree.. Thoughts?  I am wondering also if less JUCO kids will get opportunities to move on as the more programs utilize the transfer portal?

@TimeFlies posted:

My only though about him going the JUCO route at this point would be the possibility of staying there two years and then only having one remaining year of eligibility versus taking the D2 offer and hopefully having a good three year career there while getting his degree.. Thoughts?  I am wondering also if less JUCO kids will get opportunities to move on as the more programs utilize the transfer portal?

If your son already has 28+ credits under his belt, I think it would be very unusual for him to spend 2 years at a juco. Traditionally, he would just attend one year at a juco, then back to a 4-year. Nice to hear he has new options.

@TimeFlies posted:

Quick Update:

Son is home and after a few days he talked to my wife and I about wanting to continue playing baseball and giving it another shot.  He was pretty discouraged after everything that took place, but he is also aware that the changing landscape in college baseball is tough for the young guys.  He told me several of his friends at other D1 programs had 5 at-bats or fewer during the season.

All that to say he has entered the transfer portal, and about 10 minutes after his email came through letting him know he was officially in the portal, the local D2 coach texted him and then called to offer him a spot along with academic and athletic money.  He has played a lot of summer ball at this field so they have seen him many many times.  He is pretty excited about the opportunity as they are a top 25 D2 program and he could live at home if he chooses.  He is also getting a lot of texts and phone calls from JUCO programs and is weighing all his options.

I found it interesting as the coach at the D2 program admitted they have started saving athletic money for this time of the year as they are using the portal more and more to recruit.  I am guessing this is happening more and more as coaches try to remain competitive with other programs that are also recruiting out of the portal?

My only though about him going the JUCO route at this point would be the possibility of staying there two years and then only having one remaining year of eligibility versus taking the D2 offer and hopefully having a good three year career there while getting his degree.. Thoughts?  I am wondering also if less JUCO kids will get opportunities to move on as the more programs utilize the transfer portal?

@TimeFlies  Great to hear.

Here is my quick advise.

Have your son look at some of the free dashboards tools on our website, he can quickly evaluate what the heck is going on for all schools (including JUCO)

https://collegebaseballinsights.com/insights/

With respects to choices, 4 yr vs JUCO, just remember JUCOs are also loading up.

If your son's goal is to get back to D1 (maybe MLB), just remember today's roster management strategy JUCO Player with 4 years of eligibility will not be his strategy in 2 years.

IMHO, the COVID impact has reverberated through out the entire system.  If you can land at a very good D2 program, that sends players to VERY GOOD Collegiate Summer League(s).  Reduces the family out of pocket cost, and he is wanted, then it is something to think about.

Good luck.

@TimeFlies

Glad to hear your boy has reconsidered and appears to be staying in the game and he's got some options.

Looking forward to the upcoming post from the parent of the kid he will push out at his next destination.

Freshman Son Confused at D2. 😉

@TimeFlies, take the D2 deal now. Can’t stress this enough!

@adbono posted:

@TimeFlies, take the D2 deal now. Can’t stress this enough!

@adbono  I didn't want to say that, but I agree.  It is close.  Fresh start.

@TimeFlies Does you son have a Collegiate Summer League Team?  If not, see if the coach can add him to one of his connections to get some innings.

@adbono posted:

@TimeFlies, take the D2 deal now. Can’t stress this enough!

He has taken the D2 offer!  The coaches took us out to dinner and brought us back to campus for a tour and then talked athletic scholarship money.  They presented a very nice package and our son is super excited for the opportunity.  He will live at home for the first year (his choice) so he can focus on nutrition, etc and it saves rent!  He has a key to his old summer team facility that is 10 minutes from our house and we were up there last night hitting and working out.  Selfishly, it is nice to have him home and be able to continue doing those things with him.

He has talked to several of his friends that were in different D1 programs around the state and a large percentage of them are in the same boat as him.  Their programs are bringing in a ton of new talent through the portal and they are being told "the opportunities for play time will be limited again next year".  Most of them are looking to transfer to JUCO programs.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@adbono  I didn't want to say that, but I agree.  It is close.  Fresh start.

@TimeFlies Does you son have a Collegiate Summer League Team?  If not, see if the coach can add him to one of his connections to get some innings.

@CollegebaseballInsights thanks for all the information you have shared.  A fresh start and being close to home will be nice! 

They are working on getting him on one of the Collegiate Summer Teams that they have connections with, we should know who/where this week.

Thanks!

@TimeFlies posted:

He has taken the D2 offer!  The coaches took us out to dinner and brought us back to campus for a tour and then talked athletic scholarship money.  They presented a very nice package and our son is super excited for the opportunity.  He will live at home for the first year (his choice) so he can focus on nutrition, etc and it saves rent!  He has a key to his old summer team facility that is 10 minutes from our house and we were up there last night hitting and working out.  Selfishly, it is nice to have him home and be able to continue doing those things with him.

He has talked to several of his friends that were in different D1 programs around the state and a large percentage of them are in the same boat as him.  Their programs are bringing in a ton of new talent through the portal and they are being told "the opportunities for play time will be limited again next year".  Most of them are looking to transfer to JUCO programs.

I would call that a huge win for your son and for you! Congratulations!!

@TimeFlies posted:

He has taken the D2 offer!  The coaches took us out to dinner and brought us back to campus for a tour and then talked athletic scholarship money.  They presented a very nice package and our son is super excited for the opportunity.  He will live at home for the first year (his choice) so he can focus on nutrition, etc and it saves rent!  He has a key to his old summer team facility that is 10 minutes from our house and we were up there last night hitting and working out.  Selfishly, it is nice to have him home and be able to continue doing those things with him.

He has talked to several of his friends that were in different D1 programs around the state and a large percentage of them are in the same boat as him.  Their programs are bringing in a ton of new talent through the portal and they are being told "the opportunities for play time will be limited again next year".  Most of them are looking to transfer to JUCO programs.

Congrats to your son.  I think that was a decision.  I would advise your son's friends to really study the JUCO teams that are recruiting them.  I know several that have gone through the portal process and the top teams in JUCO recruit harder than anyone.  Some of those kids will end up in the same boat they were in which is at a  JUCO and still not playing.  My son's JUCO brought in a lot of D1 transfers almost all from the SEC and about half have done well and half still aren't playing or were gone after a semester.   

@d-mac posted:

Congrats to your son.  I think that was a decision.  I would advise your son's friends to really study the JUCO teams that are recruiting them.  I know several that have gone through the portal process and the top teams in JUCO recruit harder than anyone.  Some of those kids will end up in the same boat they were in which is at a  JUCO and still not playing.  My son's JUCO brought in a lot of D1 transfers almost all from the SEC and about half have done well and half still aren't playing or were gone after a semester.   

Thanks!  One of the JUCO coaches told my son that he would be competing with SEC and Big12 kids for play time.  He said they are seeing a huge amount of kids transferring in from situations similar to my son's experience.  At least the coach was honest and upfront about it.  I think he made a good decision as well and hopefully he can have a good college experience from here on out. 

@TimeFlies posted:

Thanks!  One of the JUCO coaches told my son that he would be competing with SEC and Big12 kids for play time.  He said they are seeing a huge amount of kids transferring in from situations similar to my son's experience.  At least the coach was honest and upfront about it.  I think he made a good decision as well and hopefully he can have a good college experience from here on out.

That’s exactly why I advised you to take the D2 deal now. Things are NOT getting any better! Anyone that thinks they are is delusional.