Game of failure for who?

Not if you have ever experienced a comebacker to the face! I garrronnnteee!

At the upper levels of the sport, they give you credit for quality at bats.  This can include hitting the ball hard, seeing a number of pitches, moving a runner, and so forth.  Even if in high school, I always gave my son credit for hitting it hard even if he did not get a hit in a particular game.  If you just go by raw numbers, the game can drive you crazy.  Obviously you have to hit better than the Mendoza line but there are times when you have to take "moral" victories and build off that. 

I think the cliche "game of failure" is overplayed. Cornerbacks get beat, foul shots are missed, goals are scored.

What makes baseball hard is that when you do fail, it may be awhile before your next chance.  

How about this - at PG at the 16U WWBA, I met a college coach who told me they look at the HBP statistic.  If a player gets on base that is all they care about.  If a player avoids the HBP (except if it was going to hurt him in his head)....that is NOT good...they like the HBP statistic!!!  I was shocked.  My son has always been told to avoid the HBP.  Who knows what these coaches are looking at, they all want different things!!!!!

Yes but how many times will that batter face the pitcher in a game, 3-4 times? The pitcher has to see every batter. The odds may eventually get to him. Also the even though the pitcher wants to win every at bat. His goal is to get the win. He also usually takes the blame for a loss. If a batter strikes out He does not get a L. He heads back to the dugout to try again when he gets his chance.

Oh to be the parent of a Hitter. 

Interesting with regard to the HBP stat.  Never really thought of it that way.  I coached my son's local teams from 6 years old thru 14....and his travel team at 15 and 16.  There are certain players especially at the younger ages who had a much, much better chance of getting on by HBP than they did by actually getting a hit.  Problem is those kids are already so scared of the ball there is no way they were getting hit....moving out of the way of a pitch was the fastest I would see them move all season.

My son was the opposite.  Hit nearly .450 for his HS career, including setting the school record in doubles in a career.  In his case, it was probably better to not get hit....and get another chance to swing it.  Now if it's bases loaded in a 3-3 game in the bottom of the 7th, he sure as @@@@ better be taking it on the shoulder lol. 

I have had two sons that played professional baseball. So I can speak with a little experience.  One was a hitter, one was a pitcher.  It is normal to get a little antsy watching you son no matter who you are.

In my case, it was much more nerve racking watching when my son was on the mound.  Sure it hurts to see your son strike out, but then that is over until a ball is hit in his direction or the next at bat.  The pitcher is out there until he is done for the day.  Every pitch he throws has a result good or bad.  Then there is another pitch to be made, over and over and over.

I've seen hitter son strike out and the game just moves on.  I've seen pitcher son get pulled with 45,000 fans on opening day in Milwaukee, minus us, booing him at the top of their lungs. Also seen pitcher son get hit on the side of the head with a 100+ MPH line shot, fortunately he was lucky it wasn't a serious injury. To me things are a lot different when your son is a pitcher.

So when I see parents watching their son pitch in big situations, I know what some of them are going through.  And if there are parents that don't feel anything and claim they just sit back and enjoy it, they are a hell of a lot tougher than I am. I've seen big strong ex major leaguers turn into nervous wrecks watching their son pitch.

I remember the first time pitcher son was called up to the Big Leagues. I sat with Jay Bell's dad and Bill Olsen whose son Greg had pitched in more than 250 MLB games. Packed Bank One Ball Park (that was the name of the DBacks stadium back then) Having a good time watching the game with the Astros and Randy Johnson pitching.

In the 7th inning Buck Showalter goes out to replace the pitcher.  I look up at the big screen and what do I see, my little boy (actually he is not little) running in from the bullpen.  All of a sudden my relaxed body turned into a bundle of nerves. He did end up pitching a good quick inning and I remember thinking I hope they take him out.  They did, pinch hitter, I was happy and relaxed again.

I asked Bill Olsen, did you feel like I just felt the first time you saw your son in the Big Leagues?  He said, I sure did and I still do every time he pitches. BTW Bill  is a legendary pitching coach from Omaha. Both he and I had been involved in baseball forever. We both know how to "act" calm.

Sorry for all of that, but I'm sure there are many that know exactly what I'm talking about.  You can act cool, calm, and collected, but your stomach is tied into knots. Unfortunately, it is a normal reaction. I envy those that have never felt it.  It's a different type of nervousness for hitters than it is for pitchers. Maybe it is because failure for a hitter isn't as intense as failure for a pitcher.

PGStaff posted:

I have had two sons that played professional baseball. So I can speak with a little experience.  One was a hitter, one was a pitcher.  It is normal to get a little antsy watching you son no matter who you are.

In my case, it was much more nerve racking watching when my son was on the mound.  Sure it hurts to see your son strike out, but then that is over until a ball is hit in his direction or the next at bat.  The pitcher is out there until he is done for the day.  Every pitch he throws has a result good or bad.  Then there is another pitch to be made, over and over and over.

I've seen hitter son strike out and the game just moves on.  I've seen pitcher son get pulled with 45,000 fans on opening day in Milwaukee, minus us, booing him at the top of their lungs. Also seen pitcher son get hit on the side of the head with a 100+ MPH line shot, fortunately he was lucky it wasn't a serious injury. To me things are a lot different when your son is a pitcher.

So when I see parents watching their son pitch in big situations, I know what some of them are going through.  And if there are parents that don't feel anything and claim they just sit back and enjoy it, they are a hell of a lot tougher than I am. I've seen big strong ex major leaguers turn into nervous wrecks watching their son pitch.

I remember the first time pitcher son was called up to the Big Leagues. I sat with Jay Bell's dad and Bill Olsen whose son Greg had pitched in more than 250 MLB games. Packed Bank One Ball Park (that was the name of the DBacks stadium back then) Having a good time watching the game with the Astros and Randy Johnson pitching.

In the 7th inning Buck Showalter goes out to replace the pitcher.  I look up at the big screen and what do I see, my little boy (actually he is not little) running in from the bullpen.  All of a sudden my relaxed body turned into a bundle of nerves. He did end up pitching a good quick inning and I remember thinking I hope they take him out.  They did, pinch hitter, I was happy and relaxed again.

I asked Bill Olsen, did you feel like I just felt the first time you saw your son in the Big Leagues?  He said, I sure did and I still do every time he pitches. BTW Bill  is a legendary pitching coach from Omaha. Both he and I had been involved in baseball forever. We both know how to "act" calm.

Sorry for all of that, but I'm sure there are many that know exactly what I'm talking about.  You can act cool, calm, and collected, but your stomach is tied into knots. Unfortunately, it is a normal reaction. I envy those that have never felt it.  It's a different type of nervousness for hitters than it is for pitchers. Maybe it is because failure for a hitter isn't as intense as failure for a pitcher.

Thanks for sharing this!  Doesn't matter what age or level your son is you never stop being a parent.

Everyday Dad posted:

We talk about baseball being the game of failure. For who? Hitters fail mostly 70% of the time. What does that say about pitchers? Are they then successful 70% of the time. Pitchers parents are nervous wrecks when their kids pitch. What about us hitters parents? At least you have help behind you. They're not expected to strike out everybody. Hitters barrel a ball right to a player for an out. The pitcher succeeds the batter failed. Just doesn't seem fair. Oh it must be nice to be a parent of a pitcher 

I'm a hitter but I would admit that pitching is a much greater pressure than hitting. Hitting is mentally tough too especially when you are in a slump and fighting for playing time but pitching is just super hard mentally. I did it once in a fun game and it did not work at all (due to my skill of course but also mentally). If I strike out as a batter it is not really changing the game much in most situations, you just sit down and let the next one bat.

as a pitcher you have to keep going in a couple seconds, even if you have hit two batters in a row.

pitching is easier than batting but that does also mean the expectations are higher. As a batter you are good when you succeed one out of three, as a pitcher you suck.

There are some players that are very good at taking HBP.   Coaches probably do watch for that.

My son was a pitcher and a very good hitter in HS.  I was never nervous when he went up to bat.  If he hit 4 times out of 10 at bats, thats 400 avg.  4 good outings out of 10 for a pitcher wont get anyone a job. Seeing it from both sides, hands down its rough being a pitchers parent.

The reason why they say that baseball is a game of failure, is because for both hitters and pitchers you dont get better at your game if you have never experienced failure, and a lot of that happens for everyone in this game.

Its how you overcome your failures that make you successful or not successful.

Me.  I was a horrible failure.

PG, I can so relate to your post. My son has not made it to that level, but my stomach is always in knots no matter the situation. Now. Have another reason to be nervous. After his TJ surgery, I will always fear another injury. I'm kinda looking forward to that nervous feeling again as that will mean he is healthy and competing again. 

Wow very surprised at the comments

Pitchers have ALL the control. They can throw up, down all around. They have 8 backup players. They DON'T go in slumps. Sure they have a bad day now and then, big deal. They come back MUCH easier mentally. They can walk 3 guys in a row and still get out of it. I can go on and on. Hitters fail in a clutch position and that's it, they go sit down. Pitchers failing is taking for granted  and is accepted. Hitters failing is festered and remembered. I'll repeat hitters fail 70% of the time while pitchers succeed 70% of the time. There is no debate

And i'll add, Everyday2018 pitches. It MUCH easier to handle.

You don't think a hitter failing is taken for granted? If a hitter goes 3 for 10 his entire career, he can end up in the hall of fame. What other position in baseball or any other sport allows that? (pitcher wins 30% of games or throws 30% strikes? Quarterback completes 30% of his passes? point guard drains 30% of his shots? golfer hits the fairway on 30% of his drives? I can go on...)

Add the fact that even when a batter doesn't get a hit, good things can still happen. He can walk,  he can advance the runner, he can provide the opportunity for runners to advance. He can battle off half a dozen foul balls and shorten the day of a starting pitcher.

I have found that Steve Springer is a great resource for the mental side of hitting, and why just looking at "getting a hit" and your batting average is a poor indication of the performance of a hitter.

A batter comes up to bat once every 3 innings or so. He has at least 3 strikes before he makes an out. If he has a bad game, he goes out the next game to give it another shot. If he makes an out in a critical situation, there is someone else coming up behind him to pick him up - unless it's the last out of a game.

A pitcher is out there for every pitch while his team is in the field. There is a chance on every single pitch that the game can be lost. There is a chance on every ball put into play that a runner will reach base. Either by hit or error or misplayed ball. Every single pitch that a pitcher throws, there is anxiety that something bad can happen that may not be able to be made up for by the offense. If a team loses, it's the pitcher with an "L" next to his name. If a pitcher has a bad outing, it may be a full week before he gets back out there to redeem himself. You expect a hitter to make 7 outs out of 10 chances. You don't expect a pitcher to give up a run with one swing of the bat. Or to give up 2 or 3 doubles to the gap on 3 consecutive pitches. If a batter goes 0-3 in a game, he's not going to be yanked in front of a big crowd and have to live with it for a week. 

I'm not saying it's not hard on hitters or their parents. I just think there is a lot more on the line, more often for pitchers and their parents. 

My son is done after 4 years of college, but I know for me, the stress of watching him pitch never went away thru the very end...

Well, if you see baseball as a game of failure, you would have a real hard time in a sales career.

btw, do you know of anyone considering buying or selling a house within the next three months?

"Pitchers parents are nervous wrecks when their kids pitch"

Yep, that just about sums it up in one fell swoop. lol. I was just having this conversation last night with FloridaFan. His son and mine play in the same league where his son is a SS and mine is a RHP. I was telling him in a light hearted chat that I would give anything if my son was an everyday position player. That I felt like I could sit back, relax and enjoy watching the games much more easier. He told me that at the levels our boys are at that it is just as agonizing for a position player's parent to watch them have a hard night at the plate and I'd imagine out in the field at times also. I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of being able to watch my son play every night being fun. As opposed to my son who is a starter and has to wait every 5 days to perform. The build up in anticipation of what could happen is excruciating. I had wondered if parents of Relievers felt anything but listening now to PGStaff above I can now see they do. lol. So it appears to me that there really isn't ANY solace or peace as a parent! We all get twisted up in knots when they play.

But I will go on record here to say this: The knot in the stomach is twisted just a little bit tighter and harder in the parent whose son pitches! Hands down. Last night I was almost nauseous before game time up until he was relieved.

YGD

YGD wrote

I had wondered if parents of Relievers felt anything but listening now to PGStaff above I can now see they do. lol. So it appears to me that there really isn't ANY solace or peace as a parent! We all get twisted up in knots when they play.

But I will go on record here to say this: The knot in the stomach is twisted just a little bit tighter and harder in the parent whose son pitches! Hands down. Last night I was almost nauseous before game time up until he was relieved.

Right there with you YGD! I don't get nauseous...I've had heart palpitations! Have to walk to ladies room to shake awhile! I know what ptsd is! Son was 15 yrs old, comebacker:  8 oribtal fractures, broken nose, fractured jaw, split lip, small piece of tongue gone...writhing in pain...But conscious...& very bloody. Jaw, lip & tongue were instantanious reaction to the shot. Clenched so hard, he cracked his jaw!  Abt 6 wks before his vision cleared. And he was LUCKY! 

baseballmom posted:

YGD wrote

I had wondered if parents of Relievers felt anything but listening now to PGStaff above I can now see they do. lol. So it appears to me that there really isn't ANY solace or peace as a parent! We all get twisted up in knots when they play.

But I will go on record here to say this: The knot in the stomach is twisted just a little bit tighter and harder in the parent whose son pitches! Hands down. Last night I was almost nauseous before game time up until he was relieved.

Right there with you YGD! I don't get nauseous...I've had heart palpitations! Have to walk to ladies room to shake awhile! I know what ptsd is! Son was 15 yrs old, comebacker:  8 oribtal fractures, broken nose, fractured jaw, split lip, small piece of tongue gone...writhing in pain...But conscious...& very bloody. Jaw, lip & tongue were instantanious reaction to the shot. Clenched so hard, he cracked his jaw!  Abt 6 wks before his vision cleared. And he was LUCKY! 

Oh my!  I have felt for many years that pitchers should be wearing head and face protection.  Hitters and catchers are protected, for obvious reasons, yet we leave pitchers exposed.  Doesn't make any sense to me.

Everyday Dad posted:

Wow very surprised at the comments

Pitchers have ALL the control. They can throw up, down all around. They have 8 backup players. They DON'T go in slumps. Sure they have a bad day now and then, big deal. They come back MUCH easier mentally. They can walk 3 guys in a row and still get out of it. I can go on and on. Hitters fail in a clutch position and that's it, they go sit down. Pitchers failing is taking for granted  and is accepted. Hitters failing is festered and remembered. I'll repeat hitters fail 70% of the time while pitchers succeed 70% of the time. There is no debate

And i'll add, Everyday2018 pitches. It MUCH easier to handle.

I would say the opposite. Hitters failing is taking for granted, I never heard anyone calling mike trout being a failure because he fails 70 percent of the time ( actually only 60 percent because there are walks and hit by pitches). In the end pitchers are judged against other pitchers and hitters against other hitters, neither is easier or tougher.

i also disagree that hitters failing are remembered more. If mike trout goes 0 for 12 in three consecutive games it is not a huge deal. However if Clayton kershaw gets shellacked in three consecutive starts and chased out early there will be a huge media buzz asking whether he is done or injured.

however I agree that the sittjng down aspect is tough in hitting. If you make an out it is usually at least half an hour before you bat again, that is a lot of time to overthink. In pitching you get your next chance quickly. That is easier in some regard but it also means you have to shake it off because if you don't your team loses big time. There is just no easy way out for a pitcher.

Dominik85 posted:

Everyday Dad posted:

Wow very surprised at the comments

Pitchers have ALL the control. They can throw up, down all around. They have 8 backup players. They DON'T go in slumps. Sure they have a bad day now and then, big deal. They come back MUCH easier mentally. They can walk 3 guys in a row and still get out of it. I can go on and on. Hitters fail in a clutch position and that's it, they go sit down. Pitchers failing is taking for granted  and is accepted. Hitters failing is festered and remembered. I'll repeat hitters fail 70% of the time while pitchers succeed 70% of the time. There is no debate

And i'll add, Everyday2018 pitches. It MUCH easier to handle.

I would say the opposite. Hitters failing is taking for granted, I never heard anyone calling mike trout being a failure because he fails 70 percent of the time ( actually only 60 percent because there are walks and hit by pitches). In the end pitchers are judged against other pitchers and hitters against other hitters, neither is easier or tougher.

i also disagree that hitters failing are remembered more. If mike trout goes 0 for 12 in three consecutive games it is not a huge deal. However if Clayton kershaw gets shellacked in three consecutive starts and chased out early there will be a huge media buzz asking whether he is done or injured.

 

however I agree that the sittjng down aspect is tough in hitting. If you make an out it is usually at least half an hour before you bat again, that is a lot of time to overthink. In pitching you get your next chance quickly. That is easier in some regard but it also means you have to shake it off because if you don't your team loses big time. There is just no easy way out for a pitcher.

But Kershaw won't fail 3 times in a row

Good pitchers don't go into slumps. Good hitters do

I think the contrast here between Pitcher parents and Position parents is this: It's a heckuva exhilarating, exciting, nauseating, nervous, anxious roller coaster for us all while Pitcher parents get a 4-5 day reprieve between each scream, Position parents face it everyday! One is louder, the other is more often! LOL

Wow Baseballmom, I can't even fathom how that particular scary moment must have been for you guys. We hope and pray our Pitchers are fast enough in reflex to get out of the way and most times they are. But when a bullet is hit back at them so fast they can't it can be devastating as you can attest. 

YGD

Everyday Dad posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Everyday Dad posted:

Wow very surprised at the comments

Pitchers have ALL the control. They can throw up, down all around. They have 8 backup players. They DON'T go in slumps. Sure they have a bad day now and then, big deal. They come back MUCH easier mentally. They can walk 3 guys in a row and still get out of it. I can go on and on. Hitters fail in a clutch position and that's it, they go sit down. Pitchers failing is taking for granted  and is accepted. Hitters failing is festered and remembered. I'll repeat hitters fail 70% of the time while pitchers succeed 70% of the time. There is no debate

And i'll add, Everyday2018 pitches. It MUCH easier to handle.

I would say the opposite. Hitters failing is taking for granted, I never heard anyone calling mike trout being a failure because he fails 70 percent of the time ( actually only 60 percent because there are walks and hit by pitches). In the end pitchers are judged against other pitchers and hitters against other hitters, neither is easier or tougher.

i also disagree that hitters failing are remembered more. If mike trout goes 0 for 12 in three consecutive games it is not a huge deal. However if Clayton kershaw gets shellacked in three consecutive starts and chased out early there will be a huge media buzz asking whether he is done or injured.

 

however I agree that the sittjng down aspect is tough in hitting. If you make an out it is usually at least half an hour before you bat again, that is a lot of time to overthink. In pitching you get your next chance quickly. That is easier in some regard but it also means you have to shake it off because if you don't your team loses big time. There is just no easy way out for a pitcher.

But Kershaw won't fail 3 times in a row

Good pitchers don't go into slumps. Good hitters do

Really?  Tell that to Verlander, Wainwright, Harvey, Sonny Gray,  Jose Fernandez, Gio Gonzalez, Shelby Miller, David Price,  Micheal Wacha and just about everyone else who pitches.  Ask Trevor Rosenthal .Kershaw slumps in the off season.  These guys are some of the best and they are expected to produce wins or saves. They have slumps too.

Unless you have experienced yourself or with a player in professional ball, even college ball, you won't understand.

No doubt the hardest thing to do is to hit a baseball, I get it, but to state that pitchers have it easier shows you have no idea what you are talking about.  

Justbaseballs son was hit in the face with a comebacker.  

BTW, he has 2 pitchers in proball, not sure how he keeps his sanity!!!

Sorry TPM, they still succeed 70% of the time NOT the other way around. Period end of story. Failure, not easier is the word we are talking about

You want mevto send you a picture of when I was BEANED by a. 90 plus pitcher and was knocked unconcious and lost 4 teeth?

 Yeah!!!!!

I know all about comebackers as well 

want mire info?????

My response to  TPM peceded my compassion and empathy

Hope justbaseballs kid is ok. God Bless bud!!!!

I think you got the term game of failure confused as how its used. Slumps dont mean you have failed. Slumps are part of the game. If Pujols goes into a slump has he failed? If Verlander goes into a slump has he failed?  BTW its easier to get an opportunity to get back the next day, instead of carrying that bad outing around with you for 5/6 days. These guys have experienced that failure along the way and learned how to deal with it when they go through slumps. They are not failures.

These are 2 seperate jobs with different skills. Comparing one to the other is silly.

You want to know who the game of failure is for? Those that cant handle adversity, or willing to learn how to get better. You see these type of players all of the time. It doesnt matter if they hit or pitch. 

Everyday Dad posted:

My response to  TPM peceded my compassion and empathy

Hope justbaseballs kid is ok. God Bless bud!!!!

Yea it did, it happened years ago and i was responding to baseballmoms post.

You are a jerk.

TPM

I have both. Kid can go 2-4 but fail in a clutch time, he comes home pissed

Pitcher kid loses by one run after a good outing it is shrugged off

TPM

You do not have any of my respect or credibility

You are not a good person

Everyday Dad posted:

TPM

I have both. Kid can go 2-4 but fail in a clutch time, he comes home pissed

Pitcher kid loses by one run after a good outing it is shrugged off

 

You are talking how 2 different personalities respond to their performance.

That has nothing to do with the question that you asked. 

Everyday Dad posted:

TPM

You do not have any of my respect or credibility

You are not a good person

Well after your stupid response to my post that wasnt directed to you, you dont have mine either.

Get over yourself.  There have been some really good responses in this topic and you havent acknowledge one.

And who is bud?

Everyday Dad posted:

TPM

I have both. Kid can go 2-4 but fail in a clutch time, he comes home pissed

Pitcher kid loses by one run after a good outing it is shrugged off

 

That has to do with  the personality of each of your kids. 

Has nothing to do with which aspect of the game is easier/harder, whether defense or offense. 

Welp, I was typing too slow. TPM addressed personality...

baseballmom posted:

Everyday Dad posted:

TPM

I have both. Kid can go 2-4 but fail in a clutch time, he comes home pissed

Pitcher kid loses by one run after a good outing it is shrugged off

 

That has to do with  the personality of each of your kids. 

Has nothing to do with which aspect of the game is easier/harder, whether defense or offense. 

Welp, I was typing too slow. TPM addressed personality...

Thats ok. Obviously you got that too.

My kid would be pissed in either situation but thats his personality. How he deals with it determines whether he will fail at the game or not.

baseballmom posted:

Everyday Dad posted:

TPM

I have both. Kid can go 2-4 but fail in a clutch time, he comes home pissed

Pitcher kid loses by one run after a good outing it is shrugged off

 

That has to do with  the personality of each of your kids. 

Has nothing to do with which aspect of the game is easier/harder, whether defense or offense. 

Welp, I was typing too slow. TPM addressed personality...

Sorry but i believe BOTH would feel the same. Reason for the post

Both are very difficult and I'm sure parents get a little nervous in either case.

It only bothered me if hitter son got himself out, like swinging at a bad pitch.  Anything else was OK, I knew he would hit the next time up.  If he got a hit I felt good.

I watched pitcher son set the all time record in the Pacific Coast League with 7 (yes 7) walks in one inning before they mercifully took him out.  I doubt  there has ever been a hitter that has had an at bat to compare with that. In fact, even a game as bad as that. If he struck out a hitter, there was no time to relax or enjoy.  It's just one out and up steps a different hitter. 

Lets say a pitcher throws 5 innings.  Any given hitter might have two ABs and a couple plays to make on defense during that 5 innings.  That pitcher is playing with success or failure every pitch he throws for those 5 innings. Even if he throws 5 perfect innings he has pitched to 15 hitters.

If the hitter has two chances to succeed or fail. The pitcher had fifteen chances to succeed or fail and more than that if he isn't successful getting every hitter out.  If you get nervous watching your son hit or pitch, which one would create the most chances to be nervous?

I dunno. I always wished my kids were hitters instead. Seemed like it would be a lot less nerve wrecking. Both were hitters through HS. I rarely felt anxious about it. I did pretty much all of the time when they pitched and they were two of the best pitchers in the area.   Still, felt pretty darn anxious. 

The only other position I ever heard anyone else express the terror that I sometimes feel was catchers parents. I can understand why. Runner on 3rd, game tied.  Yeah, that would be nerve wrecking too I suppose.