RJM-
Not saying he is guilty or innocent, but it's gets me when people (not only MM and baseball) have an opportunity to prove or at least discuss their innocents and clam up, plead the 5th or start talking about something else. Right or wrong, this does give the impression that they are covering something up or are indeed guilty. Just my opinion of course.
quote:Originally posted by workinghard:
I think the spitting incident is still in the back of the mind of a few voters in regards to Alomar.
I think you're right.
Congrats to Andre Dawson been a long time coming. I sure would have liked to seen some others get in though.
Really don't like to see all the hate for McGwire and Bonds, yet, ARod, Giambi, Petite, and Manny all seem to get a pass who all admitted using only after getting caught none admitted before. I guess if your likable and an awe shucks kind of person it's O.K.
Really don't like to see all the hate for McGwire and Bonds, yet, ARod, Giambi, Petite, and Manny all seem to get a pass who all admitted using only after getting caught none admitted before. I guess if your likable and an awe shucks kind of person it's O.K.
The spitting incident probably did hurt Alomar but I just read yesterday that the ump called him and wished him good luck. They made up long ago and both Roberto and Sandy Alomar donate time and money to the ump's foundation to fight the disease that killed his young son. I don't think a long great career should be defined by one bad incident when the participants have all acted like men, discussed it and made up. Actually Alomar and the ump even both called each other friends.
With regards to the steroid era, there are going to be multiple players elected in the next decade or so who used steroids in the 90's and 00's. It seems people pick and choose certain guys to exclude such as McGwire and Bonds, yet give Pudge, Pettite, and many others a pass. Everytime announcers talk about Pudge for example, they refer to him as the future Hall of Fame catcher. The roids were part of baseball history and unfortunately can't be swept under the carpet totally. I think they were much more widespread than the average fans realizes.
To counter this, I think the voters ought to just elect the greatest stars of that era and on every plaque state something along the lines if usage is unknown for sure, " Ken Griffey, one of the greatest stars of the steroid era hit so and so many HRs etc. If they are known for sure such as Palmiero simply mention it on their plaque if they get in example: "R. Palmiero was one of the great firstbasemen of the steroid era, blah, had so many hits etc. he last sentence should read, " He tested positive for prohibited substances during his career. Just be blunt about it.
To counter this, I think the voters ought to just elect the greatest stars of that era and on every plaque state something along the lines if usage is unknown for sure, " Ken Griffey, one of the greatest stars of the steroid era hit so and so many HRs etc. If they are known for sure such as Palmiero simply mention it on their plaque if they get in example: "R. Palmiero was one of the great firstbasemen of the steroid era, blah, had so many hits etc. he last sentence should read, " He tested positive for prohibited substances during his career. Just be blunt about it.
I for one dont think anyone who might have been using steroids and was breaking some of baseball's hallowed records should be considered for the Hall.
EVER!
These guys kind of "sold their souls to the devil."
For whatever reason, money, fame, records, immortality, it doesnt matter. They knew what they were doing. AND I'M NOT GIVING A PASS TO ANYBODY! I'm not saying I know everything about the issue, but the sportswriters have up to this point have the same view as me. That will be tested big time in the coming years.
MM and BB have been given their chances to come clean, but didn't and have actually had attitude talking steroids or lack thereof. Some players have owned up and apologized, BOOM, we move on. Still not giving those guys a pass to the Hall.
They better put Rose in as a player before ANY of these clowns get in!
EVER!
These guys kind of "sold their souls to the devil."
For whatever reason, money, fame, records, immortality, it doesnt matter. They knew what they were doing. AND I'M NOT GIVING A PASS TO ANYBODY! I'm not saying I know everything about the issue, but the sportswriters have up to this point have the same view as me. That will be tested big time in the coming years.
MM and BB have been given their chances to come clean, but didn't and have actually had attitude talking steroids or lack thereof. Some players have owned up and apologized, BOOM, we move on. Still not giving those guys a pass to the Hall.
They better put Rose in as a player before ANY of these clowns get in!
What about previous generations who took greenies/amphetamines? Should we throw them out of the Hall of Fame?quote:Originally posted by D1:
I for one dont think anyone who might have been using steroids and was breaking some of baseball's hallowed records should be considered for the Hall.
EVER!
These guys kind of "sold their souls to the devil."
For whatever reason, money, fame, records, immortality, it doesnt matter. They knew what they were doing. AND I'M NOT GIVING A PASS TO ANYBODY! I'm not saying I know everything about the issue, but the sportswriters have up to this point have the same view as me. That will be tested big time in the coming years.
MM and BB have been given their chances to come clean, but didn't and have actually had attitude talking steroids or lack thereof. Some players have owned up and apologized, BOOM, we move on. Still not giving those guys a pass to the Hall.
They better put Rose in as a player before ANY of these clowns get in!
in my opinion, the three people that took the wrong path regarding the steroid issue.
mcguire, bonds ,and clemens. i can't say for sure they actually did them, other than them who can. (but i believe they did). fess up and sign your sorry papers, every one gets over it. i have more respect for petite because of the way he handled it.
i do think there were more deserving along with andre. good for him though.
mcguire, bonds ,and clemens. i can't say for sure they actually did them, other than them who can. (but i believe they did). fess up and sign your sorry papers, every one gets over it. i have more respect for petite because of the way he handled it.
i do think there were more deserving along with andre. good for him though.
D1, I've never quite understood your argument that Rose should go in before steroid users. Rose violated the most sacrosanct, inviolable rule of the game. The one that is posted in every clubhouse in the Majors. The one rule that assures us that games are on the level. A World Series was thrown and many individual games in earlier times. Is this the kind of game you want? When professionals bet on their own sport, eventually it leaves an opening for the bookies and crooks to get their hands around your throat and eventually there is a good chance it leads to actions effecting your own team. Steroids were rife throughout track and field, the olympics, weightlifting, swimming, football and basketball from the 1960's until now. We must try to drive them out of every sporting venue but unfortunately the damage is done. Players in every sport try to get an edge and always have. But at least they were doing their best to improve or raise their games, not destroy the very base upon which professional sports bases its integrity. I don't condone in any way steroids and I mourn the records that have been compromised but I feel some day these records will be broken by clean players.
Are greenies/amphetamines performance enhancing drugs?
they sure can be...........depending on how late you were out.lol
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
...fess up and sign your sorry papers, every one gets over it.
No, they don't. Just ask Pete Rose.
Absolutely! And it just isn't if a player has a late night life. That's the legend of Mickey Mantle and his running mates Whitey Ford and Billy Martin. Most players took greenies for the grind of the long season. They're now banned as PED's.quote:Originally posted by D1:
Are greenies/amphetamines performance enhancing drugs?
Ask yourself--are greenies and amphetamines legal? Also, players wouldn't be taking them if they didn't enhance their performance by amping up the body and getting rid of fatigue and soreness
quote:one man's word is not evidence.
Actually, yes it is. Many a man has been convicted in criminal court on nothing but the testimony of one eye witness. Outside of criminal court, where the standard of proof is much more lenient, one person's word quite often is deemed sufficient proof.
As for Canseco's credibility, while he is a clown IMHO, just about everything he was vilified for saying in the steroid context has since been proven out. On this subject he is very, very credible.
P.S.
I got a chuckle out of the discussion of "Android." I assume you meant, "Andro", as in short for androstenedione. "Android" makes me think of Star Trek more than baseball!
DI
With this statement your true ignorance is showing
With this statement your true ignorance is showing
I guess if we're going to do a Salem witch hunt it's time to expell Schmidt, Mays and Stargell from The Hall.
Schmidt an Open Book on Greenies
From another article:
"Amphetamines have become as much a part of the clubhouse scene as card games and hot feet. In a Kansas City Star story last year, former Royals outfielder Brian McRae recalled how there were always two pots of coffee brewing in the clubhouse -- one conventional and the other laced with stimulants. "I had to make sure I got the unleaded," McRae said."
No wonder George Brett came out of the dugout like a shot after Tim McClelland! Brett has to go too.
I believe the regular members of the site know I can sometimes come at things from a humored, sarcastic approach. These players should not be thrown out. We have to recognize each era of the game for what it is.
As for Rose, I would like to see him admitted to The Hall but maintain the ban on his direct participation in the game. Since Rose lied for years, make him eligible for The Hall from the point forward equal to the number of years he lied.
Schmidt an Open Book on Greenies
From another article:
"Amphetamines have become as much a part of the clubhouse scene as card games and hot feet. In a Kansas City Star story last year, former Royals outfielder Brian McRae recalled how there were always two pots of coffee brewing in the clubhouse -- one conventional and the other laced with stimulants. "I had to make sure I got the unleaded," McRae said."
No wonder George Brett came out of the dugout like a shot after Tim McClelland! Brett has to go too.
I believe the regular members of the site know I can sometimes come at things from a humored, sarcastic approach. These players should not be thrown out. We have to recognize each era of the game for what it is.
As for Rose, I would like to see him admitted to The Hall but maintain the ban on his direct participation in the game. Since Rose lied for years, make him eligible for The Hall from the point forward equal to the number of years he lied.
Rose should go into the Hall (as a player)like I said before. He was never accused of betting on baseball as a player.
I use Android because it is like a steroid.
TR, what can I say. I'll keep in mind its coming from someone with "littleman syndrome".
I'll pray for you!
I use Android because it is like a steroid.
TR, what can I say. I'll keep in mind its coming from someone with "littleman syndrome".
I'll pray for you!
I can see Dawson. For one thing, he was a true "5-tool" player before his knees became such a problem, and even after that he remained a solid defender (GREAT arm) and a big producer at the plate. He has longevity, lots of HR's. Also he is one that many felt was slighted during the 1980's, when he was passed over for MVP in favor of Dale Murphy. I'm actually a huge fan of Murphy's, but there was a general feeling that Hawk was a victim of racism, and even with his later MVP trophy, I suspect that a lot of writers may have been trying to make it up to him now, when it really mattered. Hence the strong vote for him.
I'm not sure what puts people off Alomar. For about 10 years he was the absolute best at his position, offensively and defensively. His career fell off kind of suddenly, and maybe some would've preferred he hang on until he eked out his 3,000th hit or something. But the HOF has many players whose records for offense and defense at a MIF position are not close to Alomar's. I'm unaware of his being tainted by the whole steroid era; the only black mark on him would be the spitting incident. That was one momentary lapse, not something to hold against him years later. Hopefully he'll get in, in due time.
As for McGwire, the only thing he has to his credit is lots of HR's, and those are tainted. IMHO, he should never make the cut. Sosa will also be in that category when his time comes.
Bonds and Clemens are different, in that both could've gotten into the Hall based on their records prior to their alleged steroid use. So even with the stain, they earned it. And I don't put subsequent steroid use on the same level as, by comparison, Pete Rose's gambling, that is, I don't think the later steroid use should disqualify them. I could see a protest vote for a year or two, but ultimately it would make a mockery of the Hall for these two not to get in.
I put Palmiero in that category, too, though he's not as clear cut as Bonds and Clemens.
McGriff is one that begs the question of whether a lot of HR's is enough in an era rife with HR's. He's kind of like Eddie Murray in that he was so steady all his career, yet was probably not the top 1B even one year of his career. On the other hand, McGriff's squeaky clean record argues for him being the "anti-McGwire", the guy whose numbers hold up in a tainted era. One of baseball's true good guys, hopefully some day he'll get a golden ticket, too.
I'm not sure what puts people off Alomar. For about 10 years he was the absolute best at his position, offensively and defensively. His career fell off kind of suddenly, and maybe some would've preferred he hang on until he eked out his 3,000th hit or something. But the HOF has many players whose records for offense and defense at a MIF position are not close to Alomar's. I'm unaware of his being tainted by the whole steroid era; the only black mark on him would be the spitting incident. That was one momentary lapse, not something to hold against him years later. Hopefully he'll get in, in due time.
As for McGwire, the only thing he has to his credit is lots of HR's, and those are tainted. IMHO, he should never make the cut. Sosa will also be in that category when his time comes.
Bonds and Clemens are different, in that both could've gotten into the Hall based on their records prior to their alleged steroid use. So even with the stain, they earned it. And I don't put subsequent steroid use on the same level as, by comparison, Pete Rose's gambling, that is, I don't think the later steroid use should disqualify them. I could see a protest vote for a year or two, but ultimately it would make a mockery of the Hall for these two not to get in.
I put Palmiero in that category, too, though he's not as clear cut as Bonds and Clemens.
McGriff is one that begs the question of whether a lot of HR's is enough in an era rife with HR's. He's kind of like Eddie Murray in that he was so steady all his career, yet was probably not the top 1B even one year of his career. On the other hand, McGriff's squeaky clean record argues for him being the "anti-McGwire", the guy whose numbers hold up in a tainted era. One of baseball's true good guys, hopefully some day he'll get a golden ticket, too.
D1-- you can't take half the man in and leave the bad part of the guy out. And as for as taking stuff like you say you are, what ever happened to just making it on ability and hard work?
I'm going to provide advice to a new member. If you're here to learn about how to get your son to college baseball you're spitting in the wrong direction. Whether or not everyone here agrees or disagrees with TR, they respect his position in the college baseball prospect world. You would be wise to refrain from name calling before you lose the respect of many other influential members of the hsbaseballweb community.quote:Originally posted by D1:
Rose should go into the Hall (as a player)like I said before. He was never accused of betting on baseball as a player.
I use Android because it is like a steroid.
TR, what can I say. I'll keep in mind its coming from someone with "littleman syndrome".
I'll pray for you!
Sorry for the confusion 3 Bag, I use the word Android.
I know someone who used it, they acted like they were on steroids. Well, maybe because this guy was nuts to begin with.
I know someone who used it, they acted like they were on steroids. Well, maybe because this guy was nuts to begin with.
Rose AGREED to a lifetime ban (to keep some details from being made public)
So, he goes into the Hall of Fame the day after he dies.... of course he should be in there; we'll just have to wait.
So, he goes into the Hall of Fame the day after he dies.... of course he should be in there; we'll just have to wait.
D1
Little man syndrome ?----have you ever met me?
WOW
Little man syndrome ?----have you ever met me?
WOW
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
You would be wise to refrain from name calling before you lose the respect of many other influential members of the hsbaseballweb community.
RJM,
With all due respect, just who the he11 are you to tell someone to respect someone else? No one here is a sacred cow or deserves treatment any better or any worse than any other. Let them hash out their own issues...if nothing else, TR has proven he can stand up for himself. You absolutely don't speak for me when you talk about who's position I respect in the baseball world.
Don't speak for other people or annoint anyone here based on your perceptions.
Please excuse me for trying to help a new poster who doesn't understand hsbaseballweb isn't the normal pi$$ all over each other baseball board. It's a high class board helping people help their son's get to college ball. Sure, we have our disputes. But it should stop before name calling. People don't have to agree on opinions to respect what's brought to the baseball community.quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by RJM:
You would be wise to refrain from name calling before you lose the respect of many other influential members of the hsbaseballweb community.
RJM,
With all due respect, just who the he11 are you to tell someone to respect someone else? No one here is a sacred cow or deserves treatment any better or any worse than any other. Let them hash out their own issues...if nothing else, TR has proven he can stand up for himself. You absolutely don't speak for me when you talk about who's position I respect in the baseball world.
Don't speak for other people or annoint anyone here based on your perceptions.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Sure, we have our disputes. But it should stop before name calling.
This was the comment that preceded D1's
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
DI
With this statement your true ignorance is showing
It evoked a response, as it would with most people. It's their beef. I just think advising a new poster to mind his p's and q's after being provoked, isn't appropriate.
I'll let them drop the gloves and pull the jersies over each other's head before jumping in next time.quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Sure, we have our disputes. But it should stop before name calling.
This was the comment that preceded D1'squote:Originally posted by TRhit:
DI
With this statement your true ignorance is showing
It evoked a response, as it would with most people. It's their beef. I just think advising a new poster to mind his p's and q's after being provoked, isn't appropriate.
If I my credibility was in question and I was called in front of Congress to defend my credibility what would I do? If I was innoncent what would I do? If I were guilty what would I do?
If I was accused or there was speculation that I had done something that would taint my credibility , my character what would I do when I had an opportunity to state my case?
I have been in situations where I had to defend myself or man up and admit my wrong doings. What did I do?
Mark McGwire had an opportunity and he chose to not answer. That in itself does not make him guilty. But it leads to serious doubt at the least. Enough doubt in my mind that if I were in the HOF there is no way I would want him in my sacred fraternity. JMO
I dont believe anyone should be allowed in the HOF that was proven to be a user of steroids. I believe the members and voters have every right to hold players accountable and make their own judgements. As far as the greenies etc - if people want to say that taking greenies equates to steroids then hold whatever views you want to hold. I dont believe they do equate to steroids. Thats my view.
I take a logical approach imo. Bonds did not get his body to do what it did without steroids. Neither did McGwire. Thats just my opinion and I am very comfortable with that logical approach. Others can believe whatever they want to believe. Everyone is free to have their own opinion. Thats just mine. And I dont think you will ever see Bonds , Sosa , McGwire or Rose in the HOF.
If I was accused or there was speculation that I had done something that would taint my credibility , my character what would I do when I had an opportunity to state my case?
I have been in situations where I had to defend myself or man up and admit my wrong doings. What did I do?
Mark McGwire had an opportunity and he chose to not answer. That in itself does not make him guilty. But it leads to serious doubt at the least. Enough doubt in my mind that if I were in the HOF there is no way I would want him in my sacred fraternity. JMO
I dont believe anyone should be allowed in the HOF that was proven to be a user of steroids. I believe the members and voters have every right to hold players accountable and make their own judgements. As far as the greenies etc - if people want to say that taking greenies equates to steroids then hold whatever views you want to hold. I dont believe they do equate to steroids. Thats my view.
I take a logical approach imo. Bonds did not get his body to do what it did without steroids. Neither did McGwire. Thats just my opinion and I am very comfortable with that logical approach. Others can believe whatever they want to believe. Everyone is free to have their own opinion. Thats just mine. And I dont think you will ever see Bonds , Sosa , McGwire or Rose in the HOF.
Yet, George Brett and his pine tar bat are both in there.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
If I my credibility was in question and I was called in front of Congress to defend my credibility what would I do? If I was innoncent what would I do? If I were guilty what would I do?
If I was accused or there was speculation that I had done something that would taint my credibility , my character what would I do when I had an opportunity to state my case?
I have been in situations where I had to defend myself or man up and admit my wrong doings. What did I do?
Mark McGwire had an opportunity and he chose to not answer. That in itself does not make him guilty. But it leads to serious doubt at the least. Enough doubt in my mind that if I were in the HOF there is no way I would want him in my sacred fraternity. JMO
I dont believe anyone should be allowed in the HOF that was proven to be a user of steroids. I believe the members and voters have every right to hold players accountable and make their own judgements. As far as the greenies etc - if people want to say that taking greenies equates to steroids then hold whatever views you want to hold. I dont believe they do equate to steroids. Thats my view.
I take a logical approach imo. Bonds did not get his body to do what it did without steroids. Neither did McGwire. Thats just my opinion and I am very comfortable with that logical approach. Others can believe whatever they want to believe. Everyone is free to have their own opinion. Thats just mine. And I dont think you will ever see Bonds , Sosa , McGwire or Rose in the HOF.
"Not saying he is guilty or innocent, but it's gets me when people (not only MM and baseball) have an opportunity to prove or at least discuss their innocents and clam up, plead the 5th or start talking about something else. Right or wrong, this does give the impression that they are covering something up or are indeed guilty. Just my opinion of course."
Point I was trying to get across Coach, you just write so much more eloquently than I do.
And yet, its America. Right against self incrimination a rather basic point to the whole experiment is it not?
VDad, Really, pine tar on a bat to steroids is like comparing a traffic ticket to murder. Pine tar on a bat does not enhance the flight of the ball.
quote:Originally posted by Just Me:
And yet, its America. Right against self incrimination a rather basic point to the whole experiment is it not?
You are 100% correct Just Me. And by doing so you live with the consequences do you not?
Very true Just Me.
So by not answering the questions and pleading the 5th he avoided the possibility of incriminating himself. And at the same time he avoided an opportunity to clear his name. What was more important to Mark? He made that very clear imo.
So by not answering the questions and pleading the 5th he avoided the possibility of incriminating himself. And at the same time he avoided an opportunity to clear his name. What was more important to Mark? He made that very clear imo.
The results;
Hall of Fame Voting Results
Player Votes Percentage
Andre Dawson 420 77.9
Bert Blyleven 400 74.2
Roberto Alomar 397 73.7
Jack Morris 282 52.3
Barry Larkin 278 51.6
Lee Smith 255 47.3
Edgar Martinez 195 36.2
Tim Raines 164 30.4
Mark McGwire 128 23.7
Alan Trammell 121 22.4
Fred McGriff 116 21.5
Don Mattingly 87 16.1
Dave Parker 82 15.2
Dale Murphy 63 11.7
Harold Baines 33 6.1
Andres Galarraga 22 4.1
Robin Ventura 7 1.3
Ellis Burks 2 0.4
Eric Karros 2 0.4
Kevin Appier 1 0.2
Pat Hentgen 1 0.2
David Segui 1 0.2
Mike Jackson 0 0.0
Ray Lankford 0 0.0
Shane Reynolds 0 0.0
Todd Zeile 0 0.0
Hall of Fame Voting Results
Player Votes Percentage
Andre Dawson 420 77.9
Bert Blyleven 400 74.2
Roberto Alomar 397 73.7
Jack Morris 282 52.3
Barry Larkin 278 51.6
Lee Smith 255 47.3
Edgar Martinez 195 36.2
Tim Raines 164 30.4
Mark McGwire 128 23.7
Alan Trammell 121 22.4
Fred McGriff 116 21.5
Don Mattingly 87 16.1
Dave Parker 82 15.2
Dale Murphy 63 11.7
Harold Baines 33 6.1
Andres Galarraga 22 4.1
Robin Ventura 7 1.3
Ellis Burks 2 0.4
Eric Karros 2 0.4
Kevin Appier 1 0.2
Pat Hentgen 1 0.2
David Segui 1 0.2
Mike Jackson 0 0.0
Ray Lankford 0 0.0
Shane Reynolds 0 0.0
Todd Zeile 0 0.0
Roberto Alomar?
The Baseball Writers Association of America instructs its members to vote based on "the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."
I'm sorry. But for me this just goes over the line of "sportsmanship and character". He'd never get my vote.
The Baseball Writers Association of America instructs its members to vote based on "the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."
I'm sorry. But for me this just goes over the line of "sportsmanship and character". He'd never get my vote.
Bert Blyleven should already be in the HOF. I will never understand this one. Simply wrong he is not already in.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Bert Blyleven should already be in the HOF. I will never understand this one. Simply wrong he is not already in.
I honestly think the voters are hung up on him not getting 300 wins...it's just stoopid.
YoungGunDad-
I couldn't agree with you more. To me, spitting, not talking and spraying, but spitting in someones face has got to be one of the lowest forms of disrespect possible. Whenever I get the right to vote on the HOF inductee's, I will not vote for him. Just my opinion of course.
I couldn't agree with you more. To me, spitting, not talking and spraying, but spitting in someones face has got to be one of the lowest forms of disrespect possible. Whenever I get the right to vote on the HOF inductee's, I will not vote for him. Just my opinion of course.