have you changed your opinion on the decision to sit Strasburg?

No. It was a dumb decision.

No one will ever be able to prove whether it was a good decision or not. What we do know however is they created an injury for Strasburg where none existed. They should have left the decision up to Stasburg and his doctors imho and not Tom Verducci.

I always thought the decision was short sighted, sacrificed the probable achievements of the present for the possible achievements of the future, cared more about the preservation of one persons future than the conservation of the teams goal. And there is something about the decision that just offends me in a way that I haven't as yet been able to effectively put into words. But I know it has something to do with work ethic, striving for one's best, taking off precisely at the moment when your partners need you. And you do it at a time when you are at your peak performance. So if they get their butts handed to them, well good.

My understanding is that it was recommended by his doctors.

He did a great jof of helping his team get to the post season, but it seems like some of them, especially the hitters, haven't shown up yet.

What ever happened to your teammates stepping up when the ace goes down?

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
I always thought the decision was short sighted, sacrificed the probable achievements of the present for the possible achievements of the future, cared more about the preservation of one persons future than the conservation of the teams goal. And there is something about the decision that just offends me in a way that I haven't as yet been able to effectively put into words. But I know it has something to do with work ethic, striving for one's best, taking off precisely at the moment when your partners need you. And you do it at a time when you are at your peak performance. So if they get their butts handed to them, well good.

Good thoughts as usual...

I think about predicting the future and how precarious that is. What we know is that Stasburg is healthy today and that is what should have driven the decision. I think of things like Mark Prior and on the darker side of things, Payne Stewart. We need to seize the opportunities of today and deal with the outcomes of tomorrow when it gets here. If Stasburg goes on to a 20 year career, they will argue that they were responsible. I would argue that they robbed him of a 21 year career however.

My son has been on the DL quite a number of times, 3 surgeries, it's been a bummer, major, not sure people understand how ****** that is.

He has been given a routine that he follows to the t in his conditioning to help prevent further trips to the DL. He does what he is told, even though he doesn't agree, why, because being on the DL sucks. I understand the look of anquish on his face. No one want to be in that situation.

The interesting part is that GM made a statement and I agree, only they and only SS know how he really feels, and FWIW, most pitchers don't feel right towards end of season. His last start could have been an indication that he was done for the season regardless of the situation.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
My son has been on the DL quite a number of times, 3 surgeries, it's been a bummer, major, not sure people understand how ****** that is.

He has been given a routine that he follows to the t in his conditioning to help prevent further trips to the DL. He does what he is told, even though he doesn't agree, why, because being on the DL sucks. I understand the look of anquish on his face. No one want to be in that situation.

The interesting part is that GM made a statement and I agree, only they and only SS know how he really feels, and FWIW, most pitchers don't feel right towards end of season. His last start could have been an indication that he was done for the season regardless of the situation.

JMO.

I can understand not feeling right at the end of the season. Your son has had bad luck with respect to injuries - no doubt and that is very unfortunate.

As far as I know, Strasburg is not complaining of an injury however or a tired arm or any other pitching-related ailment

I'm all for playing it safe with pitchers until they reach the top level. You draft a player #1 over all and you hope he will help your club win a championship. The MLB play offs are where risk should be set aside.

Sure there is risk involved. There is risk involved for those who are pitching... All of them! Worst case, Strasburg requires another TJ surgery. Many have had more than one and it would cost him next year. However, they have a chance to win it all this year! Those chances are never guaranteed the following years.

BTW, it's usually the teams most valuable pitcher that ends up taking the biggest risks in a World Series. Many have thrown in three of the games on short rest. This is what it's all about. This is why clubs spend millions to get the best players and pitchers. This is when you take chances and throw caution to the side.

There are pitchers that throw well over 200 innings. You can always find a reason or example to play it safe. The Play Offs are not the time to play things safe. Especially if someone is perfectly healthy at the time. This is when players put it all on the line.

I think the people who made this decision are very intelligent. However, I still think this was a stupid decision. If I were to get injured, I could only hope it is because I pitched in the World Series for a team that hadn't been there since 1933!

Sorry, but that is the way I feel about this issue.

The Cardinals starter for today put it all on the line once again. This was his first win of the season. One big reason he missed so much time this year is because he put it all on the line last fall which helped the Cardinals win the World Series...

PG,
I understand a bit what you are saying.

Strasburg was a huge investment. I think they have a right to protect their investment and his future as well.

Past was that a pitcher went down and they just replaced him with the next guy (you should understand that), Nats have proved things can be done differently.

My opinion has not changed. He should be pitching now. Use caution and discretion so you can stay healthy so you can get to the show. Once you're there, you need to do what you're paid to do. Maybe if the Nationals were not in playoff contention, you sit him for next year. It's not often a team gets the chance to go all the way. A year like this year is what you try to protect a pitcher for. I think the Nationals have really hurt themselves by doing this. They may never have the chance again. Now is SS's future. This is what he spent all those years from when he was a little kid dreaming about. And where is he? Sitting the bench. He's making millions and millions of dollars a year to pitch. Let him do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
The Cardinals starter for today put it all on the line once again. This was his first win of the season. One big reason he missed so much time this year is because he put it all on the line last fall which helped the Cardinals win the World Series...

Sure, he laid it all on the line, he is also towards the END of his career. Seems to me many of his teammates stepped it up when they lost him bigtime, same with when they lost Berkman and Furcal and Beltran. He's might also be shot up with cortisone and wears lidocane patches and whatever else he needs to make him feel better that is legal and allowed.

It's about the insurance contract over 160 innings the insurance is gone.

$130,000,000 of self insurance even make the big boys follow the rules.

No Drama, player concerns, just business. One thing for sure... they are not going to risk 130 Million uninsured, to win a championship, today.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
It's about the insurance contract over 160 innings the insurance is gone.

$130,000,000 of self insurance even make the big boys follow the rules.

No Drama, player concerns, just business. One thing for sure... they are not going to risk 130 Million uninsured, to win a championship, today.

That logic escapes me. Perhaps they will never win a championship using that logic. Perhaps they could have won one this year using alternative logic.

I know if it were my kid he would be insane on the bench.

The issue is, we really don't know how he may feel or what may be going on. We really don't know why they made the decision and stuck to it.

Only they know will be interesting to see what statements they come out with.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I know if it were my kid he would be insane on the bench.

The issue is, we really don't know how he may feel or what may be going on. We really don't know why they made the decision and stuck to it.

Only they know will be interesting to see what statements they come out with.

TPM - think about what you just said. We know exactly why they made the decison - they told us why.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
As far as I know, Strasburg is not complaining of an injury however or a tired arm or any other pitching-related ailment

Teams don't let the public know when a player is really hurt, unless he is on the DL. Players don't even tell each other when they are not feeling right.

quote:

Teams don't let the public know when a player is really hurt, unless he is on the DL. Players don't even tell each other when they are not feeling right.

Just ask Jaime Garcia!

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I know if it were my kid he would be insane on the bench.

The issue is, we really don't know how he may feel or what may be going on. We really don't know why they made the decision and stuck to it.

Only they know will be interesting to see what statements they come out with.

TPM - think about what you just said. We know exactly why they made the decison - they told us why.

I was referring to the reference that he may not be 100%.

I know what the reason they stated, they also did it with Zimmerman.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Teams don't let the public know when a player is really hurt, unless he is on the DL. Players don't even tell each other when they are not feeling right.

Just ask Jaime Garcia!

Exactly.

Besides, do you think he would have told anyone he wasn't 100%?

Of course not!

My opinion hasn't changed. I agree with what they are doing at this point in time. However, I still believe they would have been better served to limit his innings more earlier in the season to have him available for the playoffs. I think they weren't really expecting to make the playoffs and backed themselves into a corner.

JMO, but baseball tends to waste a lot of talent in the drive to win today and the glorification of the player who is willing to sacrifice their body, and there's a lot of poor decisions made due to a lack of understanding how the world really works. No those loud noises aren't coming from Zeus throwing thunderbolts. No you aren't better off trying to win the 1st game of 3 elimination games and disregarding tomorrow unless getting the extra income from having a second game is what is important. i.e. when you are down 3-2 in a series you don't throw your ace on 3 days rest in game 6. You go with your next best option because that gives you the best overall chance of winning game 7 which is really the only one that counts in that situation. Now I know someone will make a fool of themselves if I don't intervene at this point. Let's take Ace McPitcher who will win 6 out of 10 times on 3 days rest and will win 8 out of 10 times on 4 days rest. We also have Joe McMediocre available who hasn't pitched yet. He'll win 4 out 10 times game 6 or game 7. Let's do this a hundred times. Ace throws game 6. 60 times out of a hundred he wins. 40 times out of a hundred no tomorrow. The Joe goes in game 2. Out of those 60 he wins only 24. How about the other way around? Joe goes in game 6. Only 40 times does he win and 60 times you go home without a game 7. Then Ace throws game 7 and out of those 40 he wins 32 of them. That's better than 24 by a long shot. Are you in it to get to game 7 or are you in it to win game 7? I think a lot of managers and a lot of fans are in it to get to game 7 and don't have the guts to risk losing game six to increase their chances of winning game 7.

When you could improve your chances of winning the world series this year by a slight amount you don't risk a long term ace's career. Lot's of uncertainty there of course as to how much you are affecting the chance of winning this year and how much you are increasing risk.

I realize I'm in the minority but I thought Garrett Anderson was far more of a team player in reality than Darin Erstad who probably wasted a lot of his talent by being what most people would call an unselfish team player.

There's a lot of glory in being the guy who is willing to sacrifice the body and bash into fences but the guy who plays it smart usually has a longer, more productive career relative to his talent. Darin Erstad may have had just as much talent as Garrett Anderson but he had nowhere near the career and the Angels won a lot more games because of Anderson.

What he said.

quote:

Originally posted by jp24:
What he said.

No, not what he said.

You can't win this argument anecdotally. Moreover, how you bring Garret Anderson and Darin Erstadt into the argument makes no sense whatsover

Strasburg may never ptich another game in his career for a variety of reasons. Eternal shame on the Nationals for artificially making that a possibility.

CD,
Study long, study hard. Someday you may have a breakthrough.

I'll agree however that a lot of people won't get the point. IMO, even if somebody were able to prove that he was taking a serious risk Strasburg would still go ahead and pitch in the playoffs given the choice. By the same token Darin Erstad knew that he was hurting his career and continued to bash into fences,etc. because that was part of his makeup. Baseball players in general and pitchers especially won't do what is right for themselves and at times management needs to do it for them and for the fans. A lot of pitchers hurt themselves and their teams by trying to pitch through pain and hiding it from the coaches. Why? Because that's the culture of baseball. I would have much rather seen Darin Erstad at the top of his game at the top of the lineup than making a few more great plays because I enjoy wins. Was it worth it for CJ Wilson to go 11 games without a win trying to figure out how to pitch around the limitations caused by the bone spurs? I've got a feeling that the Angels would have won a couple more of those even with Jerome Williams on the mound. Oops, maybe they missed the playoffs because a pitcher did what virtually everyone in the game thinks is the right thing to do. Sometimes doing what is really the right thing is tougher than doing what looks good.

Baseball players have to be tough and they have to be able to play through discomfort and nagging injuries due to the length of the season. Unfortunately that gets taken to extremes and players ruin their careers or hurt their teams in the quest to stay in the lineup at all costs.

Given his history, every time Weaver had to drop out of the rotation due to an injury this year I figured it helped the Angels because he's historically dropped off toward the end of the year and each time he came back fresh from the injury. Without the injuries I don't think he has any chance of winning 20 games.

Personally, I think the best way to win over an entire season is to have a couple 2 week shutdowns followed by a week of rehab programmed in during the season for the starters. Never happen.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
CD,
Study long, study hard. Someday you may have a breakthrough.

Go ahead and explain the "breakthrough" then. How does what Darin Erstad did or what Garret Anderson did explain whether or not Strasburg might have been injured by continuing to pitch? There is no nexus whatsoever between the experiences and I mean that with all due respect because I respect your opinion...

The argument above makes sense.

I only began this discussion because today some fool said that the Nats are going to lose because they didn't use him. This statement made no sense to me. If that is what the team believes, then that is what is going to happen.

No one is counting them out, they have an opportunity to step up, but they do look very tired.

I just think the reason teams get players like Strassburg is to win championships. This is their year and they should use him. To not use him is a waste of what they are paying him. Like I said earlier, if they were not in the playoffs, that would be different.

In hindsight, they probably should have done what the Braves did with Medlin. Limit him early in the season. Let him work into a starting role and be ready to go through the end of the season. Unfortunately, they didn't think that far ahead and didn't plan very well. I still think he should be pitching right now.

I don't know if it's right or wrong but at least I can give them credit for sticking to their plan. They said what they were going to do and they're doing it.

That's refreshing, especially in an election season!!!

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
CD,
Study long, study hard. Someday you may have a breakthrough.

I'll agree however that a lot of people won't get the point. IMO, even if somebody were able to prove that he was taking a serious risk Strasburg would still go ahead and pitch in the playoffs given the choice. By the same token Darin Erstad knew that he was hurting his career and continued to bash into fences,etc. because that was part of his makeup. Baseball players in general and pitchers especially won't do what is right for themselves and at times management needs to do it for them and for the fans. A lot of pitchers hurt themselves and their teams by trying to pitch through pain and hiding it from the coaches. Why? Because that's the culture of baseball. I would have much rather seen Darin Erstad at the top of his game at the top of the lineup than making a few more great plays because I enjoy wins. Was it worth it for CJ Wilson to go 11 games without a win trying to figure out how to pitch around the limitations caused by the bone spurs? I've got a feeling that the Angels would have won a couple more of those even with Jerome Williams on the mound. Oops, maybe they missed the playoffs because a pitcher did what virtually everyone in the game thinks is the right thing to do. Sometimes doing what is really the right thing is tougher than doing what looks good.

Baseball players have to be tough and they have to be able to play through discomfort and nagging injuries due to the length of the season. Unfortunately that gets taken to extremes and players ruin their careers or hurt their teams in the quest to stay in the lineup at all costs.

Given his history, every time Weaver had to drop out of the rotation due to an injury this year I figured it helped the Angels because he's historically dropped off toward the end of the year and each time he came back fresh from the injury. Without the injuries I don't think he has any chance of winning 20 games.

Personally, I think the best way to win over an entire season is to have a couple 2 week shutdowns followed by a week of rehab programmed in during the season for the starters. Never happen.

Thanks for the clarifications and it appears you and I believe in the same things - we both want to maximize performance while mitigating injury - as I suspect most people do. When you start throwing 90+ however (98+ in the case of Strasburg), then injury is part of the gig.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
I don't know if it's right or wrong but at least I can give them credit for sticking to their plan. They said what they were going to do and they're doing it.

That's refreshing, especially in an election season!!!

You are witty and funny!

There was never any indication that Strasberg had any injury, so lets not use that for an excuse now. Washington people made a dumb decision and cheated every last one of their fans and players. Now that they are on the brink it's time for damage control by Rizzo. Strasburg today was quoted on ESPN as saying he is still upset and one of his teammates who was unnamed is REALLY upset. Strasburg did then say that the decision was made and he can't do anything about it but you can tel l in the story he is stilled ****ed. He might have a twenty year career, but the last fifteen might be for someone else who takes his feelings into account.

I understand the move but we're talking about the playoffs.... as I'm typing this the Nats are on the brink of elimination... it would of been nice for them to use their best Pitcher to make a serious run in the playoffs.

You know as well as I do there's no guarentee that they'll be in this position again next year or even within the next 3-5, and by then he's able to walk away from Washington.

If they were serious about wanting to win they would of used him, instead of looking long term in the sense of if they "save" him now they can be making hundreds of millions of dollars off of him pitching for the next potential 15+ years for Washington if they can lock him up.

It's an educated guess work move that is all driven by the all mighty dollar, they just thought they could spin it to the media and fans as a "we're doing this to give us the best opportunity to win in the future" as a feel good story, look at us we're trending away from old school thinking.

The only problem is the future came early for Washington and Strasburg is stuck on the outside looking in.

It wasn't about saving his arm it was about maximizing their profit on the return of investment.

I haven't read all the posts but I've skimmed over them and don't think this has been mentioned yet. If it has then I apologize.

If the plan going in was to limit the number of pitches / innings on his arm in terms of wear and tear then why not maximize what you're going to get out of him? Don't start him with the big club and let him keep rehabbing or building up for a season. Then bring him in sometime in June so he can finish strong, pitch in the playoffs and help enhance their chances to win a World Series.

If you're Washington you know you've got the best team you've had since moving to Washington and 1933 (or whatever year it was). Plan ahead better to give yourself the optimal chance of winning.

I understand both sides of the arguement because as a coach I want to win but I also don't want to do it at the expense of someone's health. As much pressure there is on me that pressure is multiplied 100X more at the MLB level. Strasburg is an investment and needs to be protected. It's a business so the insurance aspect needs to be factored in as well. BUT the name of the game is to win. At the end of the day if you don't win then people lose their jobs. You have other guys on that roster who are getting paid to give 100% to try and win a championship so you have to try and put Strasburg in that position to give his 100% in order to win. If that means you put his innings at the end of the season then that's what you do.

There is a chance that they fall short and not make the playoffs which opens a whole different can of worms. But when you're not going to let one of your studs go a full season by choice there will always be that "what if" if everything goes wrong.

Then again maybe everything I said wasn't possible and they knew that in the beginning.

All I will say is the decision makers for the Nationals have to be as dumb as a bag of rocks for shutting down Strasbug.

Coach 2709,
Apology accepted.

quote:

My opinion hasn't changed. I agree with what they are doing at this point in time. However, I still believe they would have been better served to limit his innings more earlier in the season to have him available for the playoffs. I think they weren't really expecting to make the playoffs and backed themselves into a corner.

I have a good friend who is a VP with the Nationals. Talking to him early in the season, he said we have a good thing going. He thought the Nationals would be much better this year and could compete for the play offs in 2012.

I believe when the decision on Strasburg was made, the Nationals were not thinking World Series this year. At that time they were thinking about the future. Once that decision was made the risk was two fold once they saw what happened this year. They use him in the playoffs they risk the future and they risk winning this year. They stick to their guns they risk losing in the playoffs, but less risk in losing him in the future. Not sure what I'm saying makes sense.

I think it was "CADad" that said they painted themselves into a corner. I think they did and if they had it to do over they would have waited until later to make a decision in shutting him down.

Once again, no one would be upset if the Nationals weren't in the running. I firmly believe in the caring for the health of players/pitchers. I also believe in planning for the future. There is one time where the reward is worth the risk... when you have the chance to win the World Series. IMO at that point you shoot every bullet you have (especially your #1 bullet) and worry about the future later. After all, this is the major goal of all 30 clubs and every player.

It's one thing if he were hurt. This is a precautionary thing. Of course they are hoping they can still win it all without him. That is possible I guess, but a much better chance with him. If he gets injured in the next year or two, which can happen to any pitcher, the second guessing will become extra intense.

One thing for sure, there is going to be a lot of excitement in Washington next year no matter what happens this year. Obviously that played a part in their decision.

quote:

Strasbug

Boras has a hand in this...

Boras had insisted the insurance policy for Strasburg’s contract could be voided if he pitches against medical advice and injured himself. Representatives from multiple specialty insurance companies backed the claim.

“Absolutely, it does” sound feasible, said Colin Fairlie, a vice president at Sutton Special Risk. “And frankly, I wouldn’t think that that would happen very often. What do you have a medical staff for if you’re not going to depend on their advice?

“There may be circumstances where maybe you really need him to pitch, if you’re in a pennant race or something, maybe you gamble. If a guy is coming back from serious surgery and the doc says he shouldn’t pitch – I’m talking from the insurance companies. If the doctor says he can’t pitch, you better not pitch him, because you’re on your own if something happens to him.”

Burns said players almost never play against the advice of medical personnel. The most famous example came from football, when Terrell Owens returned from a fractured fibula against doctor’s advice to play for the Eagles in Super Bowl ***IX. If he had re-injured himself and missed the next season, “the disability insurance would not have covered that,” Burns said. “You have to be cleared medically to play.”

The issues surrounding the Nationals’ insurance policy on Strasburg’s contract would seem to be a tad murkier. He is not returning from an acute injury, and the medical science on Tommy John recovery is less concrete than, say, healing a broken bone. Still, while both Fairlie and Burns had not studied the Strasburg case intently, they said an insurance company would probably have the legal ground to void the Nationals’ policy if he continued pitching this fall.


Boras had insisted the insurance policy for Strasburg’s contract could be voided if he pitches against medical advice and injured himself. Representatives from multiple specialty insurance companies backed the claim.

"Absolutely, it does" sound feasible, said Colin Fairlie, a vice president at Sutton Special Risk. "And frankly, I wouldn’t think that that would happen very often. What do you have a medical staff for if you’re not going to depend on their advice?

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/9...asburg-and-insurance

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
One thing for sure, there is going to be a lot of excitement in Washington next year no matter what happens this year. Obviously that played a part in their decision.

I agree and good post.

This is a great example how a player is at the mercy of the control of the team and for him will continue to be that way for the next few years.

I had this discussion the other day with son and he is thoroughly not in agreement with my opinion, which happens often. He has more of a "let's get it done now and stop thinking about the future," type of mentality, more likely because of his injuries and missed opportunities.

If a team has to rely on one player to win a WS championship, then I don't think they will ever get to win a championship, you can't rely on that. I also think that they just didn't think that this would be that year, and the way they have played I doubt it would be. Seems to me they lost "it", and no match for the WS defending their title who are definetly on a roll!

And trust me, I am pullin' for the Nats.

quote:

If a team has to rely on one player to win a WS championship, then I don't think they will ever get to win a championship, you can't rely on that. I also think that they just didn't think that this would be that year,

I would have to "wonder" just how a Team that leads MLB in seasonal wins, could NOT think they had a great shot to win. That being the case, how do you decide NOT to use your best pitcher? So many other ways that this could have been handled earlier if pitches and workload where what you wanted to manage.

What message do you, as Ownership and Management, send to your fans, the team and others in MLB when you in essence say; "we have a chance to win for years to come with Strausburg so we need not worry about this year?" That is the "peak of arrogance."

That's a slap in the face really. Everyone knows, check the winningest Playoff teams who may again be eliminated from the Playoffs, that you never have any guarantees about being there again.

Most of all, if I'm a Nationals Player, I'm really upset because they are devaluing my contribution to get us here. ALL in or how can you talk TEAM?

I agree that one player can't be relied on to win a championship. But in a short series I like my chances a lot better with my top pitcher going twice. I'm sure the Tigers like it that Verlander is available.

BTW, If the Cardinals happen to win it all this year, it sure makes the regular season seem almost meaningless. I guess it kind of is anyway, other than just qualifying to get into the playoffs.