HELP -- HS girl keeping stats!

Go to coach with discrepancy ASAP.If the girl cannot keep valid stats then she needs to pass to qualified individual.We had same experience with basketball "girlfriend"of player giving mystery baskets,rebounds & assists to her beau.
Sad but true.Also some parents slant data.Good luck!

The stats are irrelevant, both the girl's and your's, but what the coach puts out has far more credibility than anything a parent might have. I would try to put it aside. The colleges sure won't pay much attention either way.

momandcpa,
Here's your chance to do something for the team. Sit with her during the games and teach her how. As jemaz says stats are irrelivent, but.......teaching and learning is not.

That's a dilemma for sure...

The same situation occurs at our HS...our kids aren't high profile like yours, but still, it is aggravating...this is a case of the coach not fully understanding the importance of these statistics for a junior class player. Hopefully the scouts and recruiters who are looking at your son will look beyond this, but in reality some will miss him entirely if his statistics aren't tremendous...and it would be a shame if they aren't tremendous solely because of a well intentioned volunteer is not properly recording them.

Now on the flip-side...

I've read on this website in the Illinois forum about coaches that actually inflate the stats for their star performers...this admittedly helps the player initially in attracting attention to the himself and his coach's program...but ultimately it could backfire if the star can not produce the same results when the books are being kept by others. That's a dilemma too...of their own selfish making!

The proof is in the pudding...the trick is getting the dessert invitation to the right person and hoping they respond by showing up and then enjoying the flavor!

The stats are irrelevant because of all of the factors mentioned here (unreliability, padding, etc), but also for more important reasons. Stats are as much a function of the competition as anything. High school players across a wide geographic area (a state, the nation, even a town) play against very disparate competition. Stats cannot tell the story. Stats can't tell if a player is hitting the ball hard or pitching with great velocity. Even when listed on a college form, they are all but meaningless.

What the coach of any credible and respected program wants is first-hand observation and recommendations from respected baseball people. You can learn it here or learn it later for yourself, but high school stats WILL NOT determine your son's baseball future. You (and anyone else) will save yourself a lot of grief if you just set it aside. If your son has real talent, the opportunities will come and at the appropriate level (but even then, nothing is guaranteed).

One last thing, one of the quickest way a parent can alienate a son from his teammates is with their own "personal" stats that they make sure to get out there.

momandcpa,

Colleges may ask for stats but they do not rely on them for the same reasons you mention. If they ask give them your stats.

If you can't help the girl with the "how to" then ride slowly into the sunset and enjoy the season. It is a coaches issue and not a parents. If the boys have a problem it will be dealt with internally.

STATS MEAN NOTHING TO COLLEGE COACHES !!!

And I sure hope you dont intend to use mommy and daddy's stats in your info to college coaches.

Can you define "recruited" in your sons case?

Mom:

I hope what I provided was valuable information. It certainly was not meant to offend you. And, the fact is, what I said is absolutely true.

The way you describe recruiting is very interesting. I have never viewed it as a game. I look at it as a search for the right fit for the player. If it becomes a game, then the player is probably looking in the wrong places. As I have tried to stress, your son's level of talent will ultimately deterine where he is recruited and if he plays -- nothing else. The best coaches look for and then play the best players (and, as I have said, that is not based on stats). If you "game" the system and get him recruited to a place above his talent level, then he will not play and might not be happy. If he is an average to above average player (rather than a true stud), then you might have to play the game a little, but as TR has said many times, there is a place for any commited player who wants to play in college. What the player and parents need to determine is if that is the right place for the player, setting the baseball aside. But, even in those cases, the stats still mean virtually nothing. So, in the end and other than providing the coach an actual opportunity to see the player in person, I'm not sure where the game is.

quote:

I hope what I provided was valuable information. It certainly was not meant to offend you. And, the fact is, what I said is absolutely true.

Actually, it was helpful... I guess I just need to weigh the pros/cons of going to the coach vs. realizing it may (probably) doesn't even matter!

Statistics are relevent.

College coaches do use them as a recruiting tool. Do you really expect that if a kid listed on the college recruiting questionaire that his batting average was in the .100 or even low .200 that there would be ANY kind of follow up? I have never seen a spot for "hit it hard, but it was caught" or "just missed it." The statistics will separate the "follow up" pile from the "toss--no interest" pile.

No, it is not the only criterion used to be interested in a player. But if a player does not have "good" statistics, he will not be shown much interest.

Do statistics really matter? If they didn't, what is the point in keeping them? And then what is the point in publishing them? We can all identify good hitters and good fielders. And why is there a spot for stats on the questionaires for not only high school stats, but also for summer ball statistics?

Statistics matter. Let me correct that. Correct statistics matter.

play


stats are always relative to the level of competition in the league-- a .500 in one league may be equal to a .300 in another becuas eof league strength---this is why I truly believe that stats dont mean anything

Can my son quote you when he fills out the questionaires?

whatever pleases you sir---just dont use me as a reference because I have no idea regarding the strength of the league your son plays in.

I was a reporter and a sports editor of a local newspaper in my first "career." We relied on each coach for his team's statistics, but knew that we had to go out and see games and players as much as possible. Here's why:

There was a coach at a large NJ high school. He was known for inflating statistics, but I never knew to what level. One year when I was sports editor, he had five, yes five, player bat over .500. His team batting average was a robust .425. His best two pitchers had ERAs under 2.0. His team committed seven errors on the year, with his shortstop, second baseman and first baseman (all.500 hitters) not committing a single error all season. He thought and articulated that he should have four or five players make our first team All-County post-season honor team.

Now the best part. His "baseball machine" was 11-14 on the season.

So I looked at all this and had my staff add up the team's total runs scored and then the RBIs credited to each player on the stat sheet. There were 14 more RBIs credited than total runs on the year.

Problem is that stats are important for recognition purposes, which can lead to exposure to colleges. TR is right, colleges could care less if you hit .400., .500, or .600 in high school - they are projecting what you will do for them in college. But I understand the frustration.

I suggest a conversation with the coach. It's early enough in the season to get this trainer either properly prepared to keep an accurate book, watched more closely, or replaced.

mom,
From experience I can tell you that stats are a small part of the recruting equation. If they were that important, doubt if son would have been recruited by manu of the schools that did.

There is no game in recruiting. Coach sees player, coach likes what he sees, makes sure the player can keep up with academics and his program. If he has need for that player, then the rest takes care of itself. If you have the mindset it is a game, you are going to find the process most difficult, because in the end your son will not win. Understand the HS game is much different from the college game. A recruitier knows anyone batting 350+ most likely will not be batting that his first year at college, or maybe never in college. A pitcher with a stunning ERA most liekly will not have that in college. Home runs seem to get more attention for a position player and velocity for a pitcher. Coaches don't have time to read newspapers to check out stats. They know who keeps them. I know of a player who relied on his stats only to see him to the next level, his stats were brilliant as a young pitcher. He never went ot showcases, never played beyond our county. You read about him constantly in the papers. His GPA got him into a JUCO. So you need to realize what is important and what is not in the recruiting process.

There are many instances where a player is recruited without being seen by coach, someone did however. It could have been someone sent by coach or even one of the players coaches who got a phone call.

You need to just sit and relax, don't even bother taking stats, and enjoy.

Play:

I can show you guys who hit below .300 and signed pro contracts worth more than $100,000. And, they were far better hitters than guys on the same team and in the same league who hit over .400. High school seasons are short, rendering the stats even more meaningless. Coaches and scouts care about players who can play and, especially those who have attributes that predict success at the next level, and that's it.

Do pitching stats carry more credibility than hitting stats?

Baseballdad:

I'm sure you were a successful journalist, following the 5 W's and the all important H--the How. I wish all reporters were as astute as you!

So what ever happened to the 4 or 5 perfect players? Did you award them All-County? Were they good?

The local reporters in my area do not do a very thorough job...it's all about what the coach reports. Which is all about what is reported to him--from the student scorekeeper. In my son's school, it had been a girl, now it is a cusp player, someone who really shouldn't have made the team. Sadly, that kid doesn't record hits and errors correctly, well, let me say he does it a little more CREATIVELY than he should...

play,
Stats are part of the game. In HS, stats should be more of a learning and incentive tool for both coach and player.

The three "stats" that DO MATTER--G.P.A. SAT and ACT. Spend your energy on grades and the rest will take care of itself. Coaches do pay attention to grades.

Colo05Dad



Great point. However, there are many situations where the academic side is in order and a player/parent has to look at the baseball related issues.

The first baseman was a very good player and made 1st team - he went on to play D-3 baseball in college.

You hope that reporters take what they do seriously. In NJ, we have The Star-Ledger, and those guys get out and see players every day. They have great pride in their work.

A solace in all of this is that colleges and pro teams could care less about numbers. They want to see tools and talent and they can spot it easily. If you are concerned about your child's future, you can do things to help him. Get him on a competitive summerteam that goes where the colleges and scouts are (Perfect Game events, College Select) and get him to the Perfect Game showcases. Buy the Showcase video - it's the best 25 bucks a prospect's parents can spend.

quote:

posted by colo05dad: The three "stats" that DO MATTER--G.P.A. SAT and ACT. Spend your energy on grades and the rest will take care of itself. Coaches do pay attention to grades.

Exactly. Good ones keep paying attention to grades, at least until players finish their eligibility also.

Really some good info here! I was the official statistician for my son’s high school team and his summer team. I also prepared press releases, provided photographs, and maintained both teams’ websites. I was involved in all the media hype and number crunching --- BUT it was basically just a hobby. Listen to what Jemaz say when he says high school stats are not important. While my son did received lots of recruiting mail and professional questionnaires that asked for stats I think we need to understand why they want these stats.
momandcpa, In your case I would just give them YOUR stats ----because they basically don’t care what they are or who generated them. I started to understand the nature of the beast AFTER my son had signed his NLI. Stats, pictures, articles, and such feed the public relations side of college and professional baseball, and that public relations frenzy does very little if any to modify a coach’s approach to recruiting or making out the lineup. I can give you many examples that prove this point but will just give you one. Shortly AFTER my son had signed his NLI the sports information director from the college called my home. He introduced himself and wanted to get the baseball stats on my son for their press releases. It was obvious he didn’t know I was the father. I asked how he had gotten my number and he explained the college coach didn't know what my son's stats were so he gave him the high school coach’s number, which in turn had given him my number simply because I was the statistician.
You and I have stats, pictures, articles, and scrapbooks, while college coaches and scouts have an ability to recognize and judge talent and like TPM says --- someone will SEE your son's talent and that is what sells him.

Fungo

Fungo,
Son was asked by college SID for his stats in HS, for media guide. I guess if it had been important the recruiting coach would have had them.
Result, none listed his freshman year.

Mom,
If there is a big enough discrepancy then you might make an inquiry as to why. As most have have stated, it's just not that important, but some parents feel that it makes a difference in the recruiting process and if that makes on feel better, go for it.

momandcpa,
From your screenname I think it would be tough to convince you that 2+2 DOESN’T always equal 4.
fungo

Exactly, Fungo! And anyway, I can't do math anymore without my ten key/calculator!

for some reason i laughed

Stats dont really matter if your kid has talent. This guy in my area last year threw 94mph at 17 years old. Yet, he got bombed in his last 5 appearances(i mean really hit hard). Did that stop the scouts and the marlins from drafting him?No because they saw potential.He got a 800,000 signing bonus!

smokky1... please allow me to be the devil's advocate for a moment. Would the scouts have been in attendance if they had heard about a pitcher that could throw 75mph?

Stats are only important if they are acquired against top competition.
Our HS and Elite team did npt keep any stats. That was why we used video against high level competition to show talent level. Ability to play against college level players. Our team places almost all of its senior plays in college.
I look at it as providing evidence since stats were not available.

quote:

That was why we used video against high level competition to show talent level.

Very interesting... did you do the video yourself or did the school do it???

quote:

Stats dont really matter if your kid has talent.

quote:

Reply

quote:

Reply

Only one stat that concerned me was that we had 1 more run at the end of the game than the other team.

I did my own and started it when he was turning 17.
I accumulated about 30 videos which I edited out wasted footage to make it easier to look at for a busy coach. Some were complete games but just the innings he threw. My son has a tendency to walk around the infield talking encouragement to the guys so I had to cut alot out. I left some videos untouched. I believ it should appear unproduced. No effects etc.
A cover sheet with personal info and detail about the videos ( comp level,lenght,Highlights). Also put news articles, awards and still shots showing key mechanics issues.
I knew I had to do something because the stats to me were only good if the coaches knew the comp was high level. Local D1s were making offers but he wanted to play in the south in a conference where he would play against high level schools. That wasn't going to happen unless we took a pro active approach.

momandcpa,
Let’s not confuse stats with non-stats. Here are stat:

Here is a fast ball ---

mom...While stats might not be important to some coaches, they likely will not be interested in recruiting a student who is hitting .150...that is why stats are important.

They are simply an indicator, that, at the level your son plays, he is competitive or better than many.

A couple of years ago, I was at a game between two very competitive teams, one team being notorious for having a lineup filled with .400 plus hitters. The pitcher for the opposing team is a stud.

Well (the home team), they lost 2-0. In my mind, I figured a no-hitter. Well, the "home" scorecard listed a little secondbaseman as getting two "hits". One was a groundball to the shortstop who threw high and the first baseman came down off of the bag; and, the other was a "duck snort" between the 1st and 2nd baseman, which wasn't caught...ball traveled all of 100 feet. 2nd baseman dove at the last minute and it went off of this glove. I gave the 2b an error, but the official scorer gave the player a "hit".

I think scorers matter.

I think stats matter.

There certainly is some value to stats- for example the High school may keep school (all time) records. Coach may need them for all league/conference selections, etc.

As far as recruiting- don't think there is any issue there. My son had recruiting contact with nearly 50 schools. No one ever cared about his high school stats

Another stat story.

When my son was a soph in HS a conference team went on to win State, their pitcher was All-State with great stats, my snot nosed soph son was conference 2nd team. Another conference team that could not score a run and was even worse in the Field had a pitcher who was 0-7 but a good era who was conference Honorable Mention. The All-State pitcher went on to have a semi-successful tech school career and now sells shoes, the 0-7 guy was drafted in the 10th round out of HS and I think is still getting paid.

Moral, the State coaches and the media did nothing but look at stats, the pros who know the game looked at projection. At that point I decided that numbers can always be construed to make someone look good, but beauty has to be experienced.

A pitcher I know well, OK I used to change his diapers, got 16 K's in 6 innings one night his senior year......pouring nothing but belt high fastballs over the plate.

That got ink and was successful in that setting but other than velocity and control, showed little of what is successful at another level.

Funny this came up. I just requested my sons coach make a few minor corrections to the stats he gave the players. I'll let you know if there is a reply. I didn't make a stink I simply told him I don't really think the stats mean that much but if they were going to the trouble to publish them they could make sure they were correct. I'm not talking about hits and errors but strike-outs and base-on-balls two stats that are easily checked.
Also, my son told me on a play from a senior to a junior an error was scored on the senior and another senior saw our bat girl (and official scorer) record the error and had her change the error and put it on the junior. It happens everywhere.