Help me bust myths!

Dr. Nathan hitting the 'top half'

 

Sports Science

I know this is grainy but I think it is just clear enough to determine the ball was hit below center.  Result line drive to 3B.  Makes it really hard to believe above center could produce anything other than a ground ball!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5K01ahGO--I

       
       
I am with you sultan...  thing I fear is naysayers would object to the bat in this 'experiment' being stationary.  I am so frustrated with many of my peers.  Even in the face of overwhelming evidence they stick with the anecdotal rather than scientific evidence.  And we wonder why we as coaches are sometimes looked down upon by the educational community.

I think the part of the myth that needs to be busted is that hitting down on the top half will generate backspin. It won't. Maybe that came from golf where you're pinching the ball against the turf to generate backspin.

 

I don't dismiss the "hit the top half" instruction entirely, because it might work to help refocus the hitting spot for a kid who's popping up a lot. You don't want them to literally hit the top half, but you do want them to hit the ball higher relative to their pop-up swing.

Another one.  Clearly a line drive not a home run.  And hit below center.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M3jV-pSNVXs

       
       
Agree with everything you said.  Problem is there are still many, many coaches out there who literally believe in hitting the top half and swinging down to 'create' backspin and make the ball go up.  And personally I am not a big fan of band aids.  Let's cure the swing that is making the kid pop up.  But I get what you are saying.  Thanks.

Just had this conversation with my son last night. "dad my coaches keep telling me to hit the top half of the baseball, if I do that I won't be hitting gap shots but just hitting ground balls". We agreed that he should keep doing what he is doing. They have only swung in the indoor cage so the one coach thinks he is just popping them up, he said they are bombs; 1st scrimmiage today if the rain holds off so I guess we will see.

Never did buy into the whole back spin thing but a lot of smart baseball people preach it so I always took their word for it.

I would echo this.  Hitting the "top half" does not and will not create sufficient backspin to carry the ball.  Just as hitting "under" the ball won't drive it to the outfield. 

 

But, the brain stimuli of hitting the "top half" changes the hand path/bat path so that instead of hitting under the ball, the player can hit that sweet part of the ball that makes it go far.  Over exaggeration helps players make the change. 

Speaking of myths, a word on hitting with an L screen.

 

If 10 degrees is the optimum line drive swing angle, and 20 degrees is optimum home run swing angle (see Sports Science above at 1:18), then you should be hitting the ball just over the L screen (back at the pitcher's hand), not even with his hip.

Here is how it was explained to me and I believe this to be the best explanation I have ever heard.  

 

"The reason we preach top half is because during BP you are hitting from flat ground.  If you focus on hitting the top half in BP and hit ground balls and line drives they will produce line Drives and deep fly balls in the game.  If you allow yourself to hit Fly Balls during BP this will produce Pop Flies and swing and misses during the games.  The reason for this is that when you introduce the mound into the equation you barrel has no choice but to drop due to the downward angle of the base ball.  The question is how much will it drop?  The answer is dependent on what you did the day before at practice."

The premise is wrong.  Pitchers don't release the ball at the top of the mound, they release it directly above their landing foot, which is at the end of the mound (essentially flat ground).  So, there would be no appreciable difference in pitch angle.

 

Also if BP is thrown from the typical 30-40 feet, the pitch angle is actually much steeper, not flatter.

I'll buy that some well-meaning coaches use the "hit the top half of the ball" as a correctional mechanism not necessarily meant to have the student hit the top half but with the idea that by focusing on doing so, they will actually hit the ball more sqaure. I'll buy that. However, there are a couple of problems with this cue:

 

1) Many coaches don't explain this to their hitters and some, believe it or not, are actually able to do exactly what they are being asked to do, resulting in ground balls.

 

2) Those players go on to be coaches and having nothing more to go on than their coaches cues and pas them on not with the idea of correction, but with the idea that their hitters actually hit the top half of the ball.

 

I remember once as a young pitching coach at a high school in Nashville having the head coach come over and talk to my pitching staff about the importance of pitching in a way so as to induce ground balls and then walk over to the cage and teach his hitters the importance of "getting on top of the ball" and hitting the ball hard on the ground. Even then I was left scratching my head. Were ground balls good for the pitcher or good for the hitter? Couldn't be both.

When coaches say 'hit the top half of the ball,'  some mean it literally. This is bad.

 

Others use it as an 'exaggeration cue' to keep batters short to the ball and/or to combat the tendency of batters to swing under game-speed fastballs.  This can be good, I guess.

 

Personally, I don't say it. 

 

Edited to add:  I agree with Roothog.

 

 

 

 

My wild guess:

- kids that hit mostly ground balls - 95%

- kids that hit mostly popups - 5% (or less)

 

So why use a cue that ruins the 95%?

       
       
Good catch sultan.  I will add to that there are taller pitchers, shorter pithers, side armers, over the toppers (not taking on the arm slot.myth at the moment!) Etc.  Much more than a 10 inch release point difference here so don't buy the BP vs. Game analogy either.  I moght also add BP is thrown slower so would require a lower bat path not a higher one.  Bottom line this is no good as a philosophy - so far we all agree on that - and I believe it is no good as a cue either.

On the ground ball topic more than the top half, we've starting using this cat's take on ball flights. Kids seem to understand it better. Not all ground balls are good to hit, not all fly balls are bad. That's too simplified.

 

http://www.hittingmental.com/2...-should-hitters.html

       
       
Excellent post ironhorse. And with statistical data!  But let's be clear about the '5's'.  Even those are hit slightly below center.  A little thing called gravity will turn anything hit 'straight out' into a ground ball.  I am pretty sure a ball leaving the bat say 3 1/2 feet off the ground at an angle parallel to the ground could not possibly be hit hard enough to make it to the outfield without hitting the ground.

       
      

The best visual I have found to help with that argument is a basket ball. Throw it to then floor spinning clockwise and watch it return spinning counter clockwise. The explaine to the person your having the discussion with the making solid contact will reverse the spin on the ball the same way and hitting the top of the ball will allow the back spin (top spin to the batter) the pitcher put on if to roll under the bat causing a ground ball.

       
       
Since you brought up the batting cage...  another of my pet peeves.  I am not against being a middle hitter I want to make that clear.  But I am also not against pulling the ball.  And I am certainly not against pulling the ball with power.  But somehow it has come to be accepted that hitting the side of the cage is bad.  And hitting the top of the cage is an abomination.   Do we realize not a single hone run and probanly no gappers would ever be hit if all our hit balls fit in to the trajectory of 'hitting the back of the cage?  Furthermore depending on what level you are coaching many of those balls are outs!  Some back to the pitcher and some may not even have enough juice to make it through the infield!  The tee and the batting cage are two of the greatest things ever for practicing.  They are also two of the most misused and misunderstood things in the game of baseball.

IMO,  you generally make your hitters worse when you discuss or direct where they're supposed to hit the ball (grounder, liner, or fly).

JB, Very much agree with your statement.  I actually spent a lot of time working on this very concept with our indoor cages over the winter.  The idea of hitting the back of the cage was replaced with a power zone (green tape) that wrapped the cage including both sides and the top near the back. Using the concept that allows you to play a video golf course indoors I watched BP for weeks making notes of vertical ball direction, and horizontal angle.  

 

I then started with a line drive that would first hit at the edge of the outfield grass and went to a ball hitting the base of the fence and marked it green.  Then I isolated lowest area where the sharp down angle results in ground balls, marked that in yellow and areas where the outfielders would get easy fly balls, (they show up as oval red tape) power ally's were green to a point and then yellow above and then there is more red tape in close to the batter where pop flies live.

 

In addition to regular BP where it provided some indication of ball travel for the coaches we also added an "Extra session" if anyone wanted to stay late 

 

Rules were simple, square up the ball and hit it sharp (If you don't, it is an out, Green is 2 points, Yellow is 1 point, Red is an out, 5 points is a run, 3 outs an inning coaches discretion.

 

Every single player stayed and had a blast...Some great progress over the winter looking forward to how it translates outdoors.  

 

freddy77 you make a great point, so i wanted to clarify this was not about directing just trying to provide some instant feedback that indoor cages often lack....

Would anyone like to add any thoughts about bat angle as it relates to the contact point on the ball.  I have heard a slightly upward plane is ideal based on the incoming pitch having a slightly downward plane.

 

Liked the idea of marking zones in the cage.  Assuming the cage is long enough and tall enough, shots going to the back net should be pretty good hits - good directionally (no pull or late to the ball) and launch wise (not a negative launch angle nor a pop up).

 

see my 2nd post

       
       
If there was a love button rather.than a like button I would have hit it (with about a 15 degree upward angle and a little below center of course).  Good for you.  I would coach with you any day!

We throw BP from in the circle not 30-40 ft away.  

       
       
There were many other points made to debunk this as well.  Bottom line I just don't think we should teach something we can't prove.  Ask this coach for some hard evidence to show his methodology works.  I am always all about converting when confronted with evidence rather  than anectdotal hogwash.  This is how so many people waste so much money on such bad instruction.  "My son's instructor played pro ball and he said..."  who the ?#$& cares.  Can he stand behind what he says with evidence?  Video?  Science?

SultanofSwat - Cannot access the Sport Science material above - will try to find it elsewhere.  Did see where you clarified the reference was to the bat angle.  I was wondering if the article then outlined the eventual launch angle.  I can only assume that the launch angle of the ball does not match the bat angle perfectly and would further assume launch angle would be another 5-10 degrees.  With all the expertise floating around I would prefer to not to have to assume and get my facts straight.

       
       
driving to a college baseball game as we speak. When I am done driving I will send you some stuff. Launch angle is about 40 degrees.

What type of "tape" did you use to mark the cage? I've tried a million different things and can't find anything that holds up very long, and it's quite time consuming to thread the tape through the nets, I'd love to hear what works for y'all.

 

I love this idea.

I used color duct tape.  So far it seems to be working o.k.  Your comment on the time consumption is that you are exactly correct it is a very slow process.  The good news is that the work is relatively mindless and thus perfectly adapted for my skill set...

might be easier to weave a colored rope around the area you want to mark. just a thought for next time.

We can't get rope to stay fixed believe it or not.Tape may be the best. Not sure how it will weather.

I apologize for ressurecting this thread...  but I just had the conversation again tonight.  Rest assured I did not bring it up.  But one of the.older guys in my kids program did.  I explained to him hitting the top half of the ball is a myth.  He looked at me like I was the dumbest old man he had ever encountered and proceeded to tell me how all these great coaches teach it.  Even gave me a demonstration by holding a ball in one hand and the bat barrel in the other.  Showing me how you swing down and hit the top half and that makes the ball spin off the bat upwards and with backspin.  THIS IS NO CUE!!!  People believe this.  Now what I am seeking is someone on here who believes it.  I want to know from a believer what it is going to take to convince you otherwise.  Any new suggestions are appreciated also.  What do we have to do???  I am still waiting for even one piece of video showing the bat above.the ball - even slightly - and the ball going up for a nice line drive.

It's better to just carry on with life knowing that most baseball cues and drills are either opposite, or completely backwards, and are usually destructive.

 

This is why 99% of kids don't make it through the funnel.

I think part of the fallacy came from the "Ken Griffey Jr. Swing Trainer" back in the 90's which seemed to try to convey that Griffey's swing (arguably considered one of the best) impacted the ball at a downward angle.  I can still remember players warming up in the on-deck circle looking like they were ready to chop a cord of wood.  The problem is that Griffey's swing never worked like the trainer.

 

But some things die hard!

       
       
Logically I know you are right.  But when they look at me smirking like I am the idiot with three heads I just can't let it go.  Perhaps I should consult a shrink!  Cause you are right acceptance will bring me much more peace and contentment!

Another one: Rising Fastball. 

You have framed the question wrong.  You can definitely create backspin by hitting the top of the ball with a glancing blow.  The problem is that backspin isn't what propels the ball into the outfield.  The mass of the bat does that -- remember your equal and opposite force stuff from physics.  Backspin provides carry -- it will keep the ball up longer (ie; airplane physics).  Too much backspin and you have a popup.  Coaches who teach backspin are teaching a natural result of the collision between the bat and ball.  I could care less if the ball has backspin.  If you barrel up the ball the spin will take care of itself.  This isn't tennis.  Good luck. 

I believe that 2000 rpm backspin will travel farther than 1000 rpm spin.  And 1000 rpm spin will travel farther than no spin (knuckle).  Correct me if this is not right.

 

So, more distance would be = more mass + correct range of launch angle + more backspin.