Hidden Ball Trick

A better ? would be- What do u consider your job to be as a coach?  To develop your players and to get them to next level(if that is their goal) or to win at all costs?  We've  all seen these silly plays but as a parent I would want a coach who trusts the kids talent to win. It might seem like a good idea at the time but play with honor. It's just one game of many. When they get older theses silly plays will not matter. In baseball, if you can't hit you won't win. Pitching can only go so far, look at college WS. Baseball is diff in youth, HS, college then pros. Why look for trick plays to win? Just my two cents. 

I had to read your post over a few times to make sure that you were not kidding.

If you tried that trick with my son on your team he wouldn't show up for the next game or practice.

Interesting. Many years ago when son was playing in 8th grade, our school was at the "state" jr. High tournament. Biggest rival was playing another team, and an opposition player hit a double with the meat of the order coming up. Rival coach, who also coached the high school varsity, went to conference on mound. When players resumed positions pitcher was behind mound playing with rosin bag. 2b had ball runner leads off one out bases empty. Rival went on to Win game.  Coach was a highly respected individual and won a few high school trophies at sectionals and state as well. 

While I wouldn't recommend it in the situation you describe, it's interesting to note that the Rays did it to the Dodgers just yesterday ... so I definitely wouldn't call it bush league LL garbage. In fact, Don Mattingly's reaction was tellingly different:

"It's something you can laugh about now," manager Don Mattingly said. "Honestly, it's really something you should learn from. It's a mistake you don't want to make in a big game or a game that it can cost you one way or another."

Here's the video:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl...ews_mlb&c_id=mlb

Rays are desperate for wins these days for first place.

My son's HC pulled it off one game in college,  he apologized later. Why, because the bottom line is his job is not only to win but to teach them the way the game should be played.

These are grown men, who got to where they did playing the game the right way.

The dodgers laughed about it because it was embarrassing. 

Do you think that TLR played the game that way to be as successful as he was?

MY opinion, still bush league.

I watching that also last night. yes the runner was out and Yes it Bush league. but some time you have to do some to change the out come of the game by all means other than cheating.

Now I'm sure the Ray's player this morning all quit the team because of a little Bush league play. I see this and other tricks in USSSA teams all over the country.  some time it works and sometime it dose not. 

Should have protested. The ball was never legally in play.

Play the game straight-up. Rarely do kids have a chance to be in that game situation.  If they are able to pull out the win, it will be something that they can use as a confidence-booster going forward. If you lose, then so be it and you can still use it as a learning experience for down the road.

And if you believe in Murphy's Law and you do try your play, what will you do if the catcher throws the ball wildly to third base, it rolls down the third base line and two runs score ?

Agree- have to be careful with not only your reputation as a coach but how others will look at your kids. You don't want them to be thought of as the team that can only win w BL tactics. They will feel better about a win if they do it the right way with talent/hard work.

what age we talking here?

With comments like that I see why so many have no respect for the game.
Those situations don't come up that often so not sure how often you see it done.

+1.

I got no problem with this. This isn't a "trick". It happens all the time on pick offs to first where the first baseman fakes a throw back to the pitcher and reaches back for a surprise tag.

Am I missing something in the fact situation here? I don't think this is a hidden ball play or anything cheap or unsportsmanlike

I have see it done two time in USSSA games,   Once in Memphis and once at the 11u Global Worlds in Destin Fl this year.  The play was a fly ball out to center, he throw ball in to first base cutoff with SS standing by and first baseman exchange ball under handed and the run on 2nd base step off and is tag out by SS. I real thought the pitcher got the ball to the play was over and the runner was call out. The pitcher stayed over on 3 base line. I was a game before us that day, there was some hot moms and dads.

I don't necessarily see trick plays as bush, either. I think that people that complain about them tend to be the ones who get caught because fundamental baseball prevents almost all trick plays from being successful. My opinion of the line being crossed is when a team does things outside of playing baseball to fool the other side.

I had a game yesterday. R1, hit and run was on, fly ball hit to right. F6 does a magnificent job of pretending to cover 2B as if he were getting a throw. To me, that's perfectly fine. The part that I feel crossed the line on this was F4 moving to his left and yelling at the runner to get down, mimicking the 1B coach. Because this was not youth ball, I didn't have to do anything.

What makes a hidden ball trick different than a middle infielder faking a double play turn when a hit and run is on and the ball was hit into the outfield?

If the runner is clueless enough to step off of the base when the pitcher is not on the mound, and doesn't realize that the fielder standing right next to him is holding the baseball, then he deserves to be out.

Sometimes the "unwritten rules" of baseball, and how they're interpreted, confuse me.

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with it. As a coach, I would rather have my team pitch to the batter and see what happens. It's also why I don't typically issue intentional walks  - I want my kids to compete at this state and try to get better rather
than go with strategy.  I expect my philosophy will change as the kids get older, but
for right now, I want them to plow straight ahead.

I agree with this.  Like Matt13 says if you know the rule it's impossible for a hidden ball trick to work.  Stay on the base until the pitcher is on the mound.  Why get mad at a team for taking advantage of your sloppy play?

  Plus +1 here too.  Don't really see anything wrong with it.....base runners need to pay attention as to where the ball is at ALL times

Agree 100%. The runner has to know the rules. Especially at the big league level. As a kid learning the game who was on the goat end of the play or anybody for that matter, he will probably not make that mistake again.

Bush League, Major League, HS or College HC who does it and apologizes later (wow!) ... regardless of how you view it, I agree: runners need to be smart. Stay on the bag until the pitcher steps onto the mound.

I still don't think it would've been the way to win a delayed game. Hope it didn't turn out that way

Damon ... You may want to get informed on the players before getting in a hissing match. The child you don't want is a pro baseball player. He played in one of the top college programs in the country. His college coach who thinks these plays are BS is one of the most successful and respected coaches in college baseball. Why not just go win the game on skill?

A bit of a lightning rod topic I guess, but one of my younger son's favorite high school memories was when a batter swung and missed and the ball got past the catcher so runner on first advances to second, the potential tying run in a big rivalry game. He tells him "Hey man, foul ball, gotta go back". As he jogs back to first, son calls for the ball and tags him out.    Not sure of the ethics but it sure was funny...at least to us. Not so much to the opposing coach ...

Adults tricking kids. Wonderful.

Exactly!
Last night on the ESPN game, they were talking about what happened, it was mentioned that it is very hard to try that unless others are in tune to what you are going to do.  It was stated it is a rare occurrence in the ML game and he never tried it,  because he just never felt comfortable with it, for a variety of reasons.

So if it is seldom on that level how come we have some here who say that they see it done frequently?  How can that be if professionals rarely invoke that play so popular. Is this what coaches are doing, teaching young players to BE better by these methods.

Never compare what goes on in a game played by grown men who do it everyday and KNOW what they are doing  to those that you are trying to help become better by their talent and skills.

Thanks RJM.  Probably coaches have to play that way in CT to beat out the competition. Never have seen that "skill"  in here FL when son was growing up.

TPM- You know I have a lot of respect for you, so take this post for what it's worth. I really disagree with you here.

First off, you contradicted yourself by saying "if they don't do it in the pros, then why do it at the amateur level?" and then going on to say, in the very next paragraph, to not compare the game at separate levels.

The hidden ball trick is a play that is so rare because it is nearly impossible to execute. There are 25 men on a big league roster, a full staff of coaches in the dugout, two base coaches and at least one baserunner. If every single person on the team is not alert of the fact that a position player has the ball and the baserunner steps off the base, then they deserve the ridicule and criticism for not being aware of the situation.

I don't find the attempted execution of a hidden ball trick to be bush league at all. It's simply exploiting your opponent's mistake. You are not injuring anyone or trying to skirt the rules.

I fully understand the emphasis on development at the amateur level, but part of that development is teaching players the ability to recognize a weakness in the opposition. If winning wasn't important, they wouldn't keep score.

I'd be hesitant to lean on trick plays in a practice type of environment because that time may be better spent teaching players the fundamentals of the game that would be much more meaningful (and more commonly useful) in the future. But, in truth, I really don't see an issue with a hidden ball trick at all. If the opposing team falls for it, it's their fault.

I may have not come across well. I never said the player or team didn't deserve the criticism for not paying attention or not on base, did I?

What I was saying was that if it is almost impossible to execute on the ML level how come someone said they see it often on the amateur level (no one every said ML level).  If you can't get all of those guys on the same page, how can you get a team of young players to do it.

It's ok agree to disagree, I do not feel that this is appropriate to teach to young players, there are no rules against it, but teach them to play the right way using skills, not tricks (isn't that what it's called anyway). 

Someday when they get to be big leaguers, then can do what they want.

It's a bush league play, JMO.

I assume the reason that it may be more prevalent is because of a greater awareness for the game at the higher levels due to experience.

I definitely agree that the play shouldn't be taught to the extent that it would take away the opportunity to teach some of the fundamental aspects of the game. But we can agree to disagree about the moral background of the play itself.

Note to readers: THIS is how you argue with TPM... 

U DON'T KNOW WHAT UR TALKING ABOUT BARBARA 

lol you two! Even mlb can't agree with this!

A hidden/trick ball play infuriates the other team and delights the one who pulled it off. After all, playing the game of baseball should have some fun elements. 

fwiw, Son was on a team that would call a trick play. Never saw it work and frankly it was embarrassing to the parents and the kids. Still don't know why the coach taught it - we changed teams! But it a runner is caught off base and is tagged with a live ball.... 

JOSH, YOU NEED TO SHOW SOME RESPECT TO SOMEONE WHO IS LIKE 2 1/2 (MAYBE 2 3/4)TIMES YOUR AGE AND HAS 10,000+ WHILE YOU ONLY HAVE 1000+.

While it's legal, it's wrong. Get runners out through skill, not through tricks. It's not a tough play to counter if people are paying attention. If you have to resort to cheap tricks to win the game, you have serious deficiencies as a team and as a coach.

While his coaches have never taught the play, my son has actually pulled it off twice in games he was pitching. These were the only times I've seen him try it.  Both times it was after the fielder walked the ball over to my son and my son didn't actually take it, he just told the fielder to go back and watch the runner.

I'm not a big fan of trick plays - rather not waste the practice time.  However, I don't fault him for noticing runners getting off the bag early and using it to his advantage. 

Check out this video - Ozzie Guillen called out twice on hidden ball trick in same season.  Listen to Alan Trammel talk about it and I don't see where he sees it as bush.  Also, the commentators talk about how Guillen was always trying stuff like this all the time.  Just before the video is over the guy even says to younger players to bring it back.

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Mike Lowell gets a guy at third back in 2005.

http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=12319987

Padres attempt hidden ball trick this year but don't get it.  Even looks like it was botched by the umps because the pitcher was within the vicinity of the rubber.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/...ainst-173619127.html

Check this link out and read where Guillen fell for it a third time in two years after the first time.  Plus read where Giants former 3B Matt Williams would tell runners to step off to clean the bag then tag them.  Not much different than a HS MIF telling the runner the ball was foul.  Also talks about an attempt in 2007 when they discuss the umpire needs to know what's going on as well and where one guy got it to work but ump wasn't looking.

http://voices.yahoo.com/hidden...-videos-6274080.html

Harold Reynolds breaking down the hidden ball trick he pulled off when he played on the guy he got. 

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Matt+Williams+Hidden-Ball+Trick&mid=FD9F9899394DD6FD2457FD9F9899394DD6FD2457&view=detail&FORM=VIRE5

Sports Illustrated article talking about some of the more memorable moments of the hidden ball trick.  First time used at MLB level was in 1907.  Even starts off with an example of a high school state championship in Mississippi.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...G1207727/1/index.htm

Google Dave Bergman and hidden ball trick.  He was the master of it when he played.  Let's not forget that University of Miami pulled off the trick play where a fake throw to first (after the pitcher has disengaged the rubber) that involves the whole right side of the field.  They used it against Wichita State in the mid 1980's College World Series to eventually go on and win the whole thing that year.  Their head coach was Ron Frasier who pretty much built the Hurricane baseball program. 

So far in everything I've looked up I have yet to hear anyone at the MLB level talk about it as bush league.  Most of them are laughing at it and that includes the ones who get it pulled on them.  The hidden ball trick has been around almost as long as baseball has been around.

Once again I don't understand why a team gets mad at the other team who took advantage of their sloppy play.  Stay on the bag until the pitcher gets on the mound and it never happens.  You control that but once you give up that control and lose contact with the bag you are fair game.