High School Coaches Involved In Process

Tampa,
Just a suggeston. Son gave the questionaires to his HS coach, but asked that his summer team caoch and an area scout be contacted.

I don't think one coach ever contacted him.

This is why it is important not to rely on coach for college recruiting.

We found it very important to have a good communication with our hs coach. He told us what was happening on his end and we told him about our experiences. If you are unable to have a good open line of communication with the coach then I would suggest what TPM said and list alternate, quality individuals who know your son and know the game.

Tampa Lefty,

You asked...."I really don't think that a college coach would turn off on a player after simply talking wit a HS coach. Am I correct"

It will depend and I will explain for you.

1) If the HS coach has a "great" relationship with the colleges that are asking; If the HS coach has provided "accurate", "reliable" information on potential recruits in the past, then it is certainly possible that is where things will end. His word may bery well be enough.

2) Now, going the other way if this HS coach has not provided "accurate", "reliable" information on recruits in the past; chances are really really good that the college coach will pay no attention to what the HS coach is telling him. I know I wouldn't.

O42

Its easy for me to give advice now that we're done with recruiting. I can tell you not to worry because it will all work out in the end. But the fact that you're asking here, tells me that you are worrying, just like we did!
We had the same situation, but our HS coach wasn't young. Just inexperienced with recruiting and pessimistic by nature. Still can't believe that my son got the attention he did and signed D1. Now the pro scouts are calling for schedules this spring and the man still doesn't believe that all this is happening.
Good players get seen by scouts or college coaches and are judged by their ability. I really don't think the HS coach has much to do with it. Ours filled out questionnaires at his leisure and continued to doubt our son till the NLI signing day. I have concluded two things:
1. College coaches have seen all kinds of HS coaches. The above advice to list multiply coaches gives the recruiter backup contacts.
2. Sometimes it seemed like the HS coach was just a reference. Kind of a last chance for the college coach to hear something dreadful about a kid like substance abuse, poor academics or bad attitude. When it came to baseball, the college coaches always made their own decisions.

Maybe some day our son's HS coach will see my son on the college field (or can we dream he might be on a pro field) and admit that this all was deserved. But knowing his personality, I'm not holding my breath! We have a younger son who will attend the same school, so I'm being very careful not to burn any bridges. But someday....Nah, he really isn't worth it!

Tampa Lefty

I do not consider it "being bold" when a HS coach tells the player what he feels--it is his opinion and he is entitled to it

Our feeling is that you tell the player what you feel but leave the door open to pursue your dream--just because a school may be a stretch does not mean it cannot happen for the player--in cases like this we tell our kids to keep chasing the dream but make sure you have a few schools that are "locks" in your back pocket in case the dream does not happen--you do not want to be left out in the cold

Our varsity HS coach never ever did anything to help with recruiting, not a letter, not a call. Very negative too, always told my son he stank as a player. However, my son had a wonderful Legion coach in the summer who did everything for him, letters, recommendations, calls, showcases, videos etc. Without him my son would have given up baseball the first year of varsity. Now he's playing Div 3 baseball, (the only player on the HS team who is playing in college) and loving it. Don't rely on the HS coach!

to all the parents and players

I did it for a long time. I feel that honesty is the best policy. If I received a phone call or a letter from a college coach I was honest. If the boy could play at that level I said so If he could not I also said. Of course it is an opinion based on what I as a coach saw every day. was I supposed to embelish and not be honest. It is about credibility. Will that coach ask about kids in the future. what will my
0pinion be worth.

Will, you seem(ed) to be a fairly helpful hs coach, as many on this board are

no dis intended, I'm just trying to gain a baseline reference


a few Q's if you don't mind

how many college games (any Div) were you able to "see live" each season
(disregard yrs your son was a prospective student athlete and/or playing)

how many college games did other area hs coaches "see live" each yr (an average guess is ok)

how many ACC, SEC, Big10+1, WAC, PAC, Big South, Ivy, Big East, C-USA, Colonial,
or MAC games did you & area coaches "see live" each yr

how much college postseason play were you & area coaches able to "see live" each yr
(breakdown by DI, DII, DIII, NAIA & JUCO)

keeping in mind that the seasons co-incide and that "you" seem above average in
"interest in players", "helpfulness", and "recruiting knowledge"

thanks there may be some interesting observations from the results


.

MMAC great to hear a coach who takes an interest.
The development of a player is an ongoing process and an opinion of a HS/ST coach should be based on potential,work ethic and attitude.
It is not uncommon for a few coaches to be very opinionated and dead wrong. I believe that college coaches will judge the player on what he sees and the HS/ST coach's opinion on coachability. To me that is the important role the HS/ST coach play if any at all.
Son's coaches were never contacted and never given a questionaire to fill out. Good coach will base his recruiting on his opinion after seeing the player himself. His picks will also be based on need. As stated earlier if the college has a good history with your coach that will create a problem.

Bee

The season co incide so I was coaching. so in order to have a valid opinion I have to see college games? College coaches ask questions. I answer. Professional scouts ask questions I answer. If they feel that I or somebody else's opinion does not mean anything then dont ask.

A short story. A baseball player I know went to a high level D1 NCAA school. In his last 2 years of HS he was banned from all varsity sports. Punched Ref out in a HS hockey game. Also in a Varisty Baseball game was tossed from a game leading to their team losing a 1st round year end tournament game. (1st loss all season).
How did this guy get recruited ? Did they talk to the coach ? Did they ignore his opinion ?

I think O42 said it best .... it all depends on the high school coach. His word is only as good as his reputation and being young and inexperienced he obviously does not have much of a reputation therefore his opinion would not carry much weight. As far as his coach telling him where he thinks he could or could not play should be a plus. Accurate evaluation of your son is necessary in order to have a good fit. You have to listen to the bad news too. So you disagree with his opinion....no big deal. Your son should listen to all “opinions” whether he (you) agree with them or not and use them to help him make the right decision. The bottom line his is your son controls his future .... not his high school coach.
Fungo

quote:

by Will: so in order to have a valid opinion I have to see college games?

an opinion on ON HIS "TARGET LEVEL" OF PLAY??
umm ... YUP! ... now you're starting to worry me

the question addressed here was -
(coach) has been so bold as to tell my son that one of these schools
would be a stretch for him"

"BEST" case scenario is -
"an honest, hardworking coach with yrs of experience"
offering an IMPORTANT OPINION, but having NO actual knowledge to base it on

and that's the BEST case


I doubt 2% of hs coaches in your area could properly rate the level of player for the following programs
(I assure you they're not all the same) *hint, put Miami last, lol

Florida
Florida Atlantic
Stetson
Florida International
Flagler
Florida State
Miami
Webber International
Gulf Coast CC
Embry-Riddle

no dis intended to any of the schools, either - but they do NOT recruit the same players

Do HS coaches have any hidden agendas.
Lets say they stir you towards a certain college that they have contacts with and give bad reports to other colleges that might show an interest in the player?
Does this ever happen?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Bee

The season co incide so I was coaching. so in order to have a valid opinion I have to see college games? College coaches ask questions. I answer. Professional scouts ask questions I answer. If they feel that I or somebody else's opinion does not mean anything then dont ask.

Will, I agree. You do not need to see a college game to evaluate. I do not pretend to know how to coach or evaluate, but a college coach told me that if he speaks to a HS coach he does not know he tries to find out about the coach first before finding out about the player (his background etc just in general conversation).

Also the coach wanted to know things like the type of kid the player is, type of student, work ethic, mental make-up, how has he developed over season to season, more than a straight scouting report. Not sure if that is with many or any other coaches, but he felt that he would evaluate the talent based on watching the player, showcases, tournaments and confirm through coach.

It also seemed that most of the contact with the HS coach was after they had seen my son play somewhere.

Tampa Lefty, in regards to having the coach not voice his opinion...not going to happen. When my son gave questionaires to Coach, he voiced his opinion as well, good fit, challange, as well as "you do know that u have no chance of this school recruiting you?" Our HS coach does not have a reputation of helping his players, I have nothing but good things to say however. He filled out forms as my Son requested, he let my Son know about schools that contacted him, and he surprised the heck out of us by touching base with my Son over the Summer, when he heard from Colleges. (I also think it is important for the player to be the lead on this not the parent)

In reflection I think some of the "bad press" that my Son's HS coach has is that there were parents and players that did not understand the process and the role of the HS coach which overall is limited. The HS coach was also not going to write a wonderful eval for a D-1 school when based on what he saw was a D-3 talent and it would not make a difference except to negatively impact the HS coach's credibility.

interesting twist & pretty logical

as a fan of the game it's clear to me that there is a wide range of player ability in various colleges and conferences. Even within conferences there is often a noticable difference.

I too, would like to hear how a hs coach could offer an opinion to a college coach
on his player's "projected ability" to succeed at Any College USA while
admittedly being unfamiliar with their "on field product"

It sounds like something is missing here.

quote:

I agree. You do not need to see a college game to evaluate

quote:

The HS coach was also not going to write a wonderful eval for a D-1 school when based on what he saw was a D-3 talent and it would not make a difference except to negatively impact the HS coach's credibility.

NoviceDad, exactly how does the hs coach know the difference between "your" DI and DIII talents (above) if he is unfamiliar with the team and conference

regarding protecting his credibility, what credibility does he have for evaluating college level of play if he does NOT follow and is NOT familiar with the game

quote:

an opinion on ON HIS "TARGET LEVEL" OF PLAY??
umm ... YUP! ... now you're starting to worry me

I doubt 2% of hs coaches in your area could properly rate the level of player for the following programs
(I assure you they're not all the same) *hint, put Miami last, lol


Well then who do you ask his math teacher.

Fair points Chairman,

First let me say this is my opinion and different views are valid. I'm sure many coaches and parents have differing views on this.

I am making some assumptions such as the coach can recognize that a kid that throws a 78 MPH fastball, or has most of his hits as squeakers through a high school infield will have limited success of being recruited by a D-1 program for example, not that D-3 would be a sure thing either.(also let me say that I understand there are strong programs at D-1,2, and 3). Are there things that aren't as blantant in the evaluation process...sure.

When I am speaking of credibility I am speaking of his own beliefs, if he does not think the player can have success at a certain level should he push the kid to schools? I wasn't assuming that he was not familar with the game (if that was the assumption I missed that). Also I am basing the D-3 talent comment based on where the kids ending up playing after High School and the level of success they had at that level. In my example the concerns from some parents was that the coach was not helping the kids get into the Big schools. IMO it was probably more that there weren't a lot of D-1's knocking down the doors, which probably vaildates the coaches opinion. Again are there exceptions, absoultely. Do successful College Programs recruit or not recruit based on a High School Coach...probably not. (Probably a good reason to go to a PG event or some other showcase)

When we sat down with College Coach and he made the Scholarship offer I was surprised by how many people he had spoke to and we had no idea. They included high school coaches from other schools, other college coaches who were recruiting my Son, as well as showcase operators and MLB scouts. But some of things that the College Coach relayed to us at that meeting had nothing to do with my Son's baseball skills. He told us that his HS coach spoke highly of my Son in regards to his work ethic. He knew my Son had been successful on his team but had no idea what his stats were, nor did it seem important to him. The College Coach had seen my son perform so he knew what he liked, it was the other stuff he wanted to find out.

quote:

by NoviceDad: if he does not think the player can have success at a certain level should he push the kid to schools?

you also bring up a good point, so let me clarify

my comments were concerning ONLY the case where the college coach calling is INTERESTED after already having seen the player somwhere - NOT a hs coach "selling" a player

when he has seen the player and calls, I would suggest that he has ALREADY determined the player can fit his program, and is just making a courtesy contact -

I'd also suggest in that case the college coach is "really" testing the credibility/expertise of the hs coach than anything to do with the player

quote:

by Will: Well then who do you ask his math teacher?

good point, tho the math teacher's response would likely be:

"coach, he's a good student, but HONESTLY, not being familiar with your team & conference, I'd suggest you see him play a few more times . . .
oh, and let me know when, we can get a cup of coffee and discuss statistical analysis"

jmo

.

quote:

I was surprised by how many people he had spoke to and we had no idea. They included high school coaches from other schools, other college coaches who were recruiting my Son, as well as showcase operators and MLB scouts. But some of things that the College Coach relayed to us at that meeting had nothing to do with my Son's baseball skills. He told us that his HS coach spoke highly of my Son in regards to his work ethic. He knew my Son had been successful on his team but had no idea what his stats were, nor did it seem important to him. The College Coach had seen my son perform so he knew what he liked, it was the other stuff he wanted to find out.

That there is golden thread material.

I'll add one, not that it is needed, but an important item too.

Other players. They ask other players on their team.

And I've been told that they check with the local police and the high school principal.
After high school, the baseball world gets pretty small. And don't forget that.

Leave the high school coach out of your recruiting plan. That ain't a knock on the high school coaches. College coaches are pretty crafty creatures. They know how to use a phone book or might even have a secretary.

Ask him to complete one questionaire, if you need to, copy it, and paste it to the rest, and tell him that is what you are gonna do.


And, when you have a doubt about the high school coach, reread that quote above.

Tampa:

I think that what the high school coach says will have profound impact on most any college coach. The question to be answered later, of course, is if he is right. Either you and your son are in a tough spot or you need to reevaluate the schools you have in mind. And, I will say this, if the hs coach is correct but you secure an opportunity at even one level too high for your son, his time on the bench might not be the most rewarding he has spent. I have seen it happen many, many times.

quote:

Leave the high school coach out of your recruiting plan. That ain't a knock on the high school coaches. College coaches are pretty crafty creatures. They know how to use a phone book or might even have a secretary.

Good advice there. I rememebr bumping into an NAIA head coach I know, at a high school tournament during recruiting. He mentioned that he got a call from Jr's HS coach promoting a couple of other players to his program. The college coach asked the high school coach about my kid.

The high school coach replied "well, he's a D1 player and wouldn't play NAIA."

What the brandy new HS coach didn't know was my son had already been recruited and seriously considered the school, which is usually nationally ranked and regularly has kids drafted.

The college coach just rolled his eyes and asked what was up with high school coach. He said he ussually likes to decide who to recruit not some high school coach who has never seen his team play and doesn't even work for him, and then wished my son good luck.

Kids go to different schools for different reasons. Way down the list may be the overall talent level of the baseball team at the school.

It ain't rocket science. Just cut'em out the loop and save the aggrevation for something important.

The guys really in the loop coach summer travel and fall scout teams. They live with kids on the road and are very influential. Top college programs have those dudes on speed dial, and wear it out.

agree D'04
jemas,
you're off base & liable to be picked off
(or be pi**ed off)


.

Bee states]I'd also suggest in that case the college coach is "really" testing the credibility/expertise of the hs coach than anything to do with the player[/quote]

Believe it or not credibility is very important. So you have to be honest and up front when talking to recruiters. Stretching a players ability or qualities will only come back to haunt not only the coach but kids deserving of consideration.

Will, I don't really disagree with anything you said & no dis intended

but again, my question is -

what does a hs coach use to form his honest opinion,
IF . . . HE IS UNFAMILIAR with various levels of college play??


maybe it's so simple I'm missing it


are all-league, all-county, or all-state honors benchmarks for different college divisions??
they are determined by OTHER coaches and usually a newspaper

in Ohio all-state honors are determined by coaches who have NEVER EVER seen the player play


is it the top few players on each hs team who are worthy of consideration for college?


I'll agree that a hs coach should shoot straight on questions from a college coach,
BUT - to offer an opinion on what college level your player is suited for,
is by your own definition dishonest - if you are not familiar with college play

the buzzwords credibility & honesty get thrown around, but my guess is that to protect or build
that credibility - hs coaches nearly ALLWAYS undervalue a player because . . .
tho his coaching philosophy is "don't be afraid of failure" - - HE'S afraid of failure

jmo


added -

not directed at coaches on this board, so don't bristle (but, if it fits....well)

the recent explosion of showcases, recruiting services, scouting services etc
is the DIRECT result of the overall dismal failure of HS coaches to identify,
communicate, and promote legit prospects

.

quote:

the recent explosion of showcases, recruiting services, scouting services etc
is the DIRECT result of the overall dismal failure of HS coaches to identify,
communicate, and promote legit prospects

It's called filling a void in the marketplace. If HS coaches just did an adequate job, there wouldn't be 15 showcase tournaments every week in the summer and fall.

The responses in this thread clearly show who has biases for or against high school coaches, and if it is coming from personal experience then the responses are really just a few of several thousands of unique experiences.

I am not a high school coach, so I am not trying to defend myself. There are very many high school coaches who are much more knowledgeable and honest about this subject than most posters are giving them credit for.

There are also summer travel coaches and fall coaches who, though many people here believe they are the most knowledgeable about the whole recruiting process, are not necessarily all that. Often, a travel team coach (be it summer or fall) 'recruits' players by using examples of his former players who have gone on to play in college. That scenario is not always completely honest........I have seen those lists of players who have moved on, and often some of those players never played an inning at the school listed.....they either were cut, transferred, dropped out, etc., perhaps due to an exaggeration of the kids' abilities (on the part of the travel team coach)........these coaches think that Division I signees on their rosters are 'feathers in their caps'.......

The bottom line, if anyone is reading this to learn.....is that some high school coaches do great work in assisting with the recuiting process and some dont. Some summer/fall travel coaches do great work in assisting with the recruiting process and some don't.

Communicate with all of your coaches.

Also, showcases are really the direct result of some intelligent people seeing an business opportunity that fits in with their skills and interests and assists young people. If it is a result of the failure of high school coaches, as some state, then we must include parents and travel coaches in the failure group as well.

quote:

HE IS UNFAMILIAR with various levels of college play??

What makes you think that coaches are unfamiliar with levels of play.

the recent explosion of showcases, recruiting services, scouting services etc
is the DIRECT result of the overall dismal failure of HS coaches to identify,
communicate, and promote legit prospects

direct result???? disagree. I coached for close to 30 years so I have been around the block. Many of my players went on to play college at different levels/ I think I have an idea or as some say a clue. Just last night i talked to a parent of a kid who I am working with(I work at a baseball academy). the kid has some talent. Said he spent x amount of dollars to go to a showcase. Now i am not going to generalize but his remark was waste of time and money. of course that his his opinion but I have had similar conversations. So as with anything concerning the recruiting scene it depends on who you ask and what their experience was.

This old timer did his homework when a coach called about a kid or sent a letter asking for reccommendations i did it.

Grateful

I agree that there is no set rule as to who knows or does what. I can only relate and have confidence in first hand information, that I relate anecdotaly, as we all do.

There are some showcases that list drafted players that have never been to their showcase. There are showcase companies that that sign kids up and never have a showcase at all.

Based on what I've experienced, the summer and fall coaches have 8 or 10 kids signing each year, compared to the high school guys one or two, maybe. It is only logical the summer guys are more experienced conversing with the college coach and not a negative on the high school guy.

I have never done a valve job on a 1963 MGB. If someone asks me for advice, I can say I don't know, or just fake it and screw it up.

With that said, I've experienced the best and worst of both summer AND high school programs, relating to recruiting, high pitch counts, trashing of players to college coaches, you name it. I've seen stuff that would curl your hair by all sorts.

quote:

I've seen stuff that would curl your hair by all sorts

No hair to curl anymore but nothing would surprise me

Dad04......I have respect for your first hand experience in the recruitment of your son.

I also have anecdotal experience that is first hand experience, not only from the recruitment of my own son, but also from talking to high school and travel coaches regarding approximately 2000 potential players in the past twenty years.

When some of you recommend to "Leave the high school coach out of your recruiting plan", you are truly generalizing due to your one experience. The reality is that all high school coaches are not like the one your sons have had.

You are right that summer/fall coaches have a higher percentage of players go on to play in college than high school coaches do, but in my twenty years as a college coach I have discovered that for the most part, summer/fall travel coaches come and go.....they tend to stop coaching when their kids go on to college......please note that I am not saying all of them do.

Since I became a college head coach in the mid 80s, the percentage of guys who were coaching summer/fall travel teams then AND now is significantly smaller than the number of high school coaches who are still around. Those guys who stick around have much more experience working with college recruiters and scouts than the ones who move on after a few years.

I have seen a lot too......from high school coaches, summer/fall coaches, and parents.

Bee

Just an opinion here. But let's throw this idea out.

Coach knows the talent level in his conference over the past dozen or so years. Of those players he knows who has and who has not continued on at the college level (even who went pro), who went D1, JUCO etc. who succeeded at each level.

Kid comes along this year who's talent is pretty similar to a kid in the conference who went D1 last year, or JUCO two years ago etc. etc. etc.

Wouldn't that give him a heads up on evalutating talent?

Coach

We come from different frames of reference and from that I learn every day. In this little corner of the baseball world the summer/fall coaches are more or less career baseball men, more often full time area scouts or associate scouts. They are usually professionals, and the minority are just dads. I'll use Chet Lemon as an example, whose teams regularly place near the top at Jupiter, East Cobb, Junior Olympics, etc. I count a half dozen others of less note than Chet, yet still career baseball people, coaching high school age kids in Florida, year after year after year, regardless of their offspring.

In this high growth part of the world, rare is the veteran high school coach who can or will assist in recruiting. There are simply not enough experienced guys coaching high school to go around. The turnover in high school teaching, a common prereq for coaching, is very high, in general, especially when they can make three times the income sitting in a model home selling houses 40 hours a week. Round here it's very common to be head coached by a mid 20's guy in his first or second year. Usually their idea of recruiting assistance is suggesting a vist to their alma mater of 800 students in Haystack, Kansas, Possum Nest, Tennessee, or somewhere.

I would much prefer a grey beard high school coach on a first name basis with the college coaches around here. Just wasn't that lucky.

EDIT: I forgot Chet actually coaches a high school team in the spring and won a state title in 2004. Probably not the best example of the less qualified recruiting authority in high school.

Given relative inconsistancies of the recruiting landscape across the country kids and their folks should utilize assets at their disposal and learn to differentiate between an asset and a liability. jmo

04......your post is something I can agree with. Chet Lemon is a high school coach. He does a great job of assisting in the arena of recruitment. Therefore, I think we are doing people an injustice if we tell them to leave the high school coach out of the recruiting process.

several good points expressed

no intent for this to become a bash the hs coach thread, any that need bashing would not be on this site anyway

reading the initial inquiry from a parent who expressed concern that his hs coach discouraged
his son from pursuing an opportunity with a college WHO WAS INTERESTED IN HIM -

I wondered aloud how a hs coach would do this -
his attitude seemed to be -
"thanks for calling, but I"LL DECIDE WHO FITS YOUR COLLEGE TEAM"

with due respect Grateful, I understood D04 was referring to leaving THAT coach out of the
recruiting loop, not all hs coaches

I further wondered how a hs coach could be more expert on "what it takes" to be sucessful
in any college progam than the Coach of that program -

Will assures me THAT'S HOW IT IS, if it's an honest opinion, and Grateful seems to confirm it -
but I'm still not convinced

AP - - good point, but prior to the showcase explosion, most players just went where
their hs coach had contacts & steered them

that brings me back to the travel/showcase/recruiting explosion,
I'd welcome input from Grateful and others in case my observations are anecdotal



set the "wayback machine" to the early '90's

recruiting info/resources = Dad, my coach at the hs said he'd handle things
exposure = hey Dad, might be some colleges at the state tourney, hope we make it that far
recruiting timeline = check the mail every day hoping your hs coach made a contact for you
fall baseball = .......................................................................
hsbaseballweb = "just a glint in Bob's eye"

population in NE Ohio is a few million - there was ONE Travel Team (tryout type) within 25 miles -
weekend road trips of 150 miles (one way) were not uncommon to field a schedule -
weekdays meant repeatedly playing the same close-by teams

regarding showcase/scouting/recruiting services "picking up the ball & running with it",
it would seem that they "took the place" of the hs coach, "gave relief" to parents,
and "added MORE importance" to the summer/fall coaches



JMO


.

Excellent observations, Bee .... Even if they were made at an ungodly time of the morning

Bee:

My observation is this: High school coaches must be a lot different in Ohio than in AZ. The ones I know here are pretty **** good in most every way -- and they have influence far greater than the summer guys.

jemaz, while many in this area are great baseball people & teachers of the game
their recruiting knowledge & methods are pretty much those of 15 yrs ago

our coach wanted to be helpful, but didn't know what to do -
when attention came anyway, he was discouraged by our AD from being helpful,
as others would expect it

standard proceedure:

cook the stats books for media attention
bombard Ohio HS Baseball Assn voting coaches with cooked stats for All-State consideration
contact a few local DIII & NAIA schools trying to stir interest
many prohibit travel team play during summer
most are still suspicious of showcases & discourage it


.