Hip Turn

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
What is the value of 'hip turn' in the swing?

Some profess a belief that hip turn should take place before the swing. I strongly disagree but am open to what others think.

The hips initiate the swing, creating a stretch between the lower body and upper body. IMO you have to have a sequence of movements from the ground up to initiate and have the most powerful and efficient swing. In that sequence, the hips begin to rotate before the hands start to the ball.

quote:

In my view and experience, hip turn after the swing is initiated multiplies the speed of the bat through the zone.

Before we can get into this more in depth, I think we all should know what you consider to be "swing initiation." This definition can vary depending on who you talk to.

quote:

I look at the batters who supposedly turn their hips before the swing, only to see arm swingers with short weak follow throughs.

IMO, you are very wrong here. I look at batters whose hips begin to rotate before their hands move to the ball, and I say pretty much every high level Major League hitter.

beemax

I toatally agree with your comments on the importance of proper hip(pelvic) action. I see a lot of online analysis that generally ignores the contribution/need of proper pelvic action.

The following comments in reference to the Guerrero clip is how I view the hip rotation topic. This was posted on Ray's site several months back. Early pelvic unloading, prior to toe touch, is sometimes difficult to detect because of tight coupled movement over a small range of motion. The front leg action, internal and external rotation, is a good indicator of what the pelvic is doing - they are directed linked with the front leg being reactive to pelvic action.



My perception of swing dynamics between frames 5 and 29 – all of this is what sets up the desired downstream sequencing. These frames,as a set, can be viewed as part of the “initial conditions” that have a major influence on limiting chaos downstream in the kinetic chain which is unfurled via ballistic action.

This clip of Vladimir Guerrero illustrates these dynamics:

Pelvic loading with in to back hip with knee flexion
Riding out on back leg
Pelvic unloading in to toe touch
Scapula loading overlapped with pelvic unload
Intensified VL





Pelvic loading/coil (f5 –f19) and its maintenance to f25 when unload starts. The preceding is synced within riding back leg while maintaining torso verticality into toe touch(f5-f29) [ all the preceding is likewise done as his body settles(hip and knee flexion included) into a stronger vertically load position]


Pelvic unloading/uncoiling in to toe touch (f25 –f29) [ commonly called “rotation into toe touch” ] : starting at f25(tracked via external rotation of front leg) with simultaneous completion of scapula loading at f29 or toe touch[ this unloading of pelvic against scapula loading is what fpdad and I as well as others refer to as the critical “overlap” which assist in producing separation between the pelvic and upper torso - energizing the torso via the “serape effect”]




jimo

There seems to be a misunderstanding of 'front hip opening' in the stride and weight shift as compared to 'hip turn' in the swing.

Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

Hip turn takes place during the swing.

When the hips turn, there is a turning of the entire upper body.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
There seems to be a misunderstanding of 'front hip opening' in the stride and weight shift as compared to 'hip turn' in the swing.

IMO you are right when it comes to a misunderstanding. Once the front hip begins to open, hip turn is initiated. IMO the only way to have your front hip open without a hip turn is to have a double-jointed hip. Once the hip opens, hip turn has begun. There is no difference, in my view.

quote:

Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

I somewhat agree with you here. IMO the best hitters can separate their stride from their weight shift. I would say the front hip opens in the stride and leave it at that.

quote:

Hip turn takes place during the swing.

While a vague statement, I don't think many will disagree here.

quote:

When the hips turn, there is a turning of the entire upper body.

And this is because the hips initiate this turning. Again another very vague statement, IMO.

The front hip can open with no swing.

In a perfect world, the hip opens in aligning the swing to the ball. Outside pitch, less open. Inside pitch, more open.

The hip turn on the other hand propels the bat in the swing.

On a purely time motion basis, it takes longer for the bat to travel than it does for the hips to turn. I doubt very much that the hands could catch up with the turning hips.

The proponents of the 'hips first' always produce a swing where the hands enter the zone while the bat is at a 90 degree angle to contact (bat drag).

Looking at an 'old fashioned' swing (like Griffey Jr.), you would see the bat head thrust into the zone along with the hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The front hip can open with no swing.

But hip turn can't start without the front hip opening

quote:

The hip turn on the other hand propels the bat in the swing.

Another vague statement, can you clarify what exactly you mean here? Are you saying hip turn initiates the swing now? Or that the hips turn after the hands? Not sure what you mean here.

quote:

On a purely time motion basis, it takes longer for the bat to travel than it does for the hips to turn. I doubt very much that the hands could catch up with the turning hips.

What does this mean? When do you start timing the bat? When do you stop timing the bat? Same with the hips.

The hips have completed their turn while the bat is still going to finish the swing. Time motion basis really means nothing to me here.

quote:

The proponents of the 'hips first' always produce a swing where the hands enter the zone while the bat is at a 90 degree angle to contact (bat drag).

This guy always was a 'hips first' proponent:





What was wrong with his bat angle?

quote:

Looking at an 'old fashioned' swing (like Griffey Jr.), you would see the bat head thrust into the zone along with the hands.

Really?

There actually can be a swing without the front hip opening in the stride or weight shift.

Stating that 'hip turn' propels the bat in the swing is clear and concise.

If you do not understand the time motion aspects of the two movements, you have no understanding of bat propulsion. This statement is also clear and to the point.

The cached photos are not visible on my connection.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
There actually can be a swing without the front hip opening in the stride or weight shift.

I agree. I never said you couldn't. I said simply that you cannot start hip turn without your front hip opening.

quote:

Stating that 'hip turn' propels the bat in the swing is clear and concise.

Okay.

quote:

If you do not understand the time motion aspects of the two movements, you have no understanding of bat propulsion. This statement is also clear and to the point.

I never said I had an understanding of "bat propulsion." I wanted you to explain it to me and to anyone else who doesn't understand along with "time motion." None of my hitting instructors at any level has ever used those terms. Neither did Ted Williams. So I apologize for not understanding. Maybe we are trying to say the same thing, but just in a different way...

quote:

The cached photos are not visible on my connection.

Hopefully they are now.

Looking at Ted's swing, it appears that the bat is moving into the zone and towards the ball as soon as he initiates his swing. This is followed by hip turn and then contact and follow through.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

IMO the hips initiate his swing. I won't change my view on this so I guess we will agree to disagree...

What about the pictures I posted?

The first is a pose so it has no real value in the discusion.

The other two being stills are indeterminate. The hands and hips could assume a similar position on an inside pitch with no swing.

If you get an opportunity for some bp, give it a try. Comparison is a far better barometer.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The first is a pose so it has no real value in the discusion.

The other two being stills are indeterminate. The hands and hips could assume a similar position on an inside pitch with no swing.

Would you like me to show you the next frame of the "pose" swing of Williams or the Griffey swing to show that they actually were swinging?

Or why don't you simply do a frame by frame on the Williams video you posted to see his "bat drag."

I'm not that computer savy to do a frame by frame.

If you have that capability, compare Williams' hip opening when taking a pitch and his hip turn when swinging. You should see the difference between hip opening and hip turn.

Here is a f-by-f clip of Williams. Maybe this will help with the discussion.



jimo

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
I'm not that computer savy to do a frame by frame.

That's okay. I will provide the frame for you.

I keep trying to get it up here but I am having trouble...

Quincy, simply pause the HOF video a little after halfway when it does the side view of Williams' swing. As he begins to swing you can see the 90 degree angle you talked about as such a bad thing.

quote:

If you have that capability, compare Williams' hip opening when taking a pitch and his hip turn when swinging. You should see the difference between hip opening and hip turn.

I never said there wasn't a difference between hip opening and hip turn. What's your point?

All I ever said was that the hips cannot turn without the front hip opening.

Thanks for the clip jimo.

Great fxf. Look at the bat head being put in motion before the hip starts moving. F-9 the swing starts. F-11 the hip opens. F-13 the hips turn.

So getting back to the initial post, what is the value of 'hip turn' in your view.

Quincy,

this is the first time I see what you meant by hip turning goes after the hands. You are talking about the hands firing, not the hands getting through the zone. I think this is why people have been giving you so much beef.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Great fxf. Look at the bat head being put in motion before the hip starts moving. F-9 the swing starts. F-11 the hip opens. F-13 the hips turn.

So getting back to the initial post, what is the value of 'hip turn' in your view.

I really think we are thinking the same way, we just use different words.

IMO the hips initiate the swing when you have a high level, MLB swing.

I believe that your understanding is that once the bathead is in motion, the swing has started. Am I right in assuming that?

IMO once the hands have started moving towards the ball, not merely loading back, the swing has begun. In the vast majority of high level swings and with Mr. Williams, the front hip initiates this move. I see it on the video clip. You obviously see differently.

The hips are the most important key in the swing, IMO. Some hitters may focus on different things to help them be successful, but if the hips do not lead the hands, you will not be as successful as you can be. I know because I did it, and I worked like heck to try and change it. It creates proper rotational mechanics when done right. You call it hip turn, I call it rotation.

Again, rotation is initiated by the front hip opening, and in the best swings this happens even before the front foot comes down. This allows the stretch to be created that brings all the energy and power with it.

Not sure if you don't want to just start another thread on this, but what do you have to say about the bat angle stuff you were talking about in terms of 'hips first' hitters. I showed you pics of two of the best with 'bag drag,' as you called it. What is wrong with hands entering the zone with the bat at a 90 degree (or so) angle to contact?

beemax

I can't agree more with your comments. It is readilly detected in clips of many elite ML swing.

quote:

The hips are the most important key in the swing, IMO

The only part I would add to the topic is that the hips(pelvic)are cocked,loaded, in setting up the unload(hip rotation). This cocking action is very suble in many ML swings. I use a one-legged drill with youngsters to illustrate how front leg movement is directly linked to pelvic action(loading-unloading). The front leg action(internal-external rotation) seen in the Guerrero clip above is integral to an effective load and unload of the pelvic.


My question is why is "pelvic action" such an overlooked ingredient in the overall swing process.

jimo

I'm glad that you see it, Catch43.

Once the arms fire into the swing, their job is done in my view. If they ride the fire and add hip turn, the ball will be rocketing off the bat.

The fire could get the bat moving at about 50 mph. The added hip turn could almost double the bat speed.

Jimo,

The importance of the hips has been taught less and less because poor hitters have written books and become instructors in an area where they lack understanding.

If you look at the supposed god of hitting, Charlie Lau, he endorsed a swing that was predominantly stride, arms and hands.

quote:

Originally posted by jimo:
The only part I would add to the topic is that the hips(pelvic)are cocked,loaded, in setting up the unload(hip rotation). This cocking action is very suble in many ML swings.

I agree. Good stuff here.

quote:

My question is why is "pelvic action" such an overlooked ingredient in the overall swing process.

Not sure. I know Ted was a big advocate of it, and ever since I read that, I was too.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:


[QUOTE]Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

I somewhat agree with you here. IMO the best hitters can separate their stride from their weight shift. I would say the front hip opens in the stride and leave it at that.

beemax,

Can you please elaborate a little on this statement? The part about seperating the stride from the weight shift.

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:


[QUOTE]Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

I somewhat agree with you here. IMO the best hitters can separate their stride from their weight shift. I would say the front hip opens in the stride and leave it at that.

beemax,

Can you please elaborate a little on this statement? The part about seperating the stride from the weight shift.

I agree with beemax here and believe the weight shift is, or should be, seperate from the stride. IMO, the weight shift is a result of the uncoiling of the hips, firing of the hands, and punch of the back leg in the direction of the hit.

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Can you please elaborate a little on this statement? The part about seperating the stride from the weight shift.

Sure, no problem.

IMO the bulk of proper weight shift occurs during rotation and not the stride. The more a hitter can stay away from shifting their weight during the stride, the more power they will conserve until proper rotation occurs.

Weight does begin to shift during the stride, but in high level swings the majority of weight is still on the backside at toe touch. Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place. That total weight shift is usually accompanied by the back foot coming off the ground, or at least rotating to the tip of the toes.

IMO if there is a focus by the hitter to separate the stride from weight shift, they will sit on their back leg longer. If they can sit on their back leg long enough to let their rotation work properly, they will put themselves in the most powerful position in their swing. IMO, of course

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

I agree with beemax here and believe the weight shift is, or should be, seperate from the stride. IMO,
the weight shift is a result of the uncoiling of the hips,
firing of the hands,
and punch of the back leg
in the direction of the hit.

This is what I have referred to as the 'sling shot' swing. Apparently, this is also thought of as 'bottom up'.

From the outset, the theory is counter-productive. Isn't it easier and more effective to swing 'top down' as compared to 'lifting' into the swing?

Isn't there more potential energy established in the top down load ? With more potential energy existing, less kinetic energy will be required to accomplish the task.

Hip turn should be the last active phase of the swing.

quote:

This is what I have referred to as the 'sling shot' swing. Apparently, this is also thought of as 'bottom up'.

From the outset, the theory is counter-productive. Isn't it easier and more effective to swing 'top down' as compared to 'lifting' into the swing?

Isn't there more potential energy established in the top down load ? With more potential energy existing, less kinetic energy will be required to accomplish the task.

Hip turn should be the last active phase of the swing.

IMO, the snap of the wrists and the punch of the back knee or leg is done at the same time and is the last active phase of the swing.

As far as top down load is concerned...No! The bigger muscles will pull the smaller muscles through.

beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
As far as top down load is concerned...No! The bigger muscles will pull the smaller muscles through.

I feel like I walked into a Professor Irwin Corey convention.

If the bigger muscles are pulling the bat and the bat is raised, are the bigger muscles not pulling the bat downward or 'top down'?

If the stretch is established in the load, is there then no need to stretch further away from contact?

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

Right, proper rotation creates proper weight shift, as they happen together. IMO "total weight shift" should happen at contact.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

Right, proper rotation creates proper weight shift, as they happen together. IMO "total weight shift" should happen at contact.

Thanks. That's what i thought you were saying but didn't want to assume too much.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
As far as top down load is concerned...No! The bigger muscles will pull the smaller muscles through.

I feel like I walked into a Professor Irwin Corey convention.

If the bigger muscles are pulling the bat and the bat is raised, are the bigger muscles not pulling the bat downward or 'top down'?

If the stretch is established in the load, is there then no need to stretch further away from contact?

Okay! I'll back up. We are probably talking about two different things. I agree, front arm should be nearly straight and core stretched as far as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

Right, proper rotation creates proper weight shift, as they happen together. IMO "total weight shift" should happen at contact.

IMO, it would be hard to say where it actually occurs, but I would say it continues through contact and ends at full extension. I would say it doesn't matter as long as it is before contact and your rotation can carry it through extension.

HOW ABOUT THIS?

I see the progression as, hip turn, weight shift, then ball contact.....

How about:

I have never noticed the way that the lead hip recoiling creates a recoil in the core which when unleashed must generate some significant pop! Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
I have never noticed the way that the lead hip recoiling creates a recoil in the core which when unleashed must generate some significant pop! Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?

Albert Pujols Granted,Pujols doesn't have as much coil as some but he does coil a little.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!

I just wanted to say what a great education we can get here when everyone with different opinions respects each other and explains their position! This is awesome. IMO, this is what can happen if we put egos away and knock off the negative **** and silly riddles, etc.

Sorry, for distracting the topic, but I wanted to express my appreciation for everyone's contribution! I, for one, have learned a great deal.