quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
HOW ABOUT THIS?
I love these frame by frame pics,imo,basic fundamentals of the mechanics are being shown.
I love these frame by frame pics,imo,basic fundamentals of the mechanics are being shown.
I love these frame by frame pics,imo,basic fundamentals of the mechanics are being shown.
Good clips from Coach and Blue there. Jay Bruce really shows what getting a "stretch" looks like. Watch his front hip begin to open as his hands stay back. He does this really well.
The Frank Robinson clip is from Deemax.........
quote:Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?
Mel Ott.....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?
Mel Ott.....
I think the DELAYING of the weight shift is the key. Many different hitters do it many different ways. Great clips of some of the different ways. I wouldn't say Mel Ott was coiling his hips with his leg kick, but he was turning his upper body back while the leg was in the air.
Great thread!!!
Here is a clip of Ted Williams. Pelvic loading(cocking) is indicated by down and in front shoulder(starting with frame 1) and internally rotating front leg/foot actions (frames 4,5 and
6). A good example of a subtle pelvic load - small ranges of pelvic and associated movements.
jimo
6). A good example of a subtle pelvic load - small ranges of pelvic and associated movements.
jimo
One very overlooked point, IMO......
The hands and arms contribute alot to weight shift.....
Weight shift is much more than just the lower half....
The hands and arms contribute alot to weight shift.....
Weight shift is much more than just the lower half....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
One very overlooked point, IMO......
The hands and arms contribute alot to weight shift.....
Weight shift is much more than just the lower half....
I would agree with that to some degree,it seems to me that the momentum of the swing should cause the weight shift?
Swinging a bat teaches you that weight shift is a conscious effort......
Many amateur hitters swing the bat and don't shift their weight.....
Momentum and weight shift are too entirely different studies....
Many amateur hitters swing the bat and don't shift their weight.....
Momentum and weight shift are too entirely different studies....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Swinging a bat teaches you that weight shift is a conscious effort......
Many amateur hitters swing the bat and don't shift their weight.....
Momentum and weight shift are too entirely different studies....
I know my son does not think about weight transfer and I have seen stills of him with his back foot completely off the ground.I believe his mechanics dictate it.
For some it might be a thought process but for others,I don't think it is.
Anyone see the slo mo clips during home run derby? They were perfect illustartions of how the hips stop turning precisely AT contact. The slow mo clips are so precise that we can be specific about the exact sequence of the swing.
Hips turn to contact. They are done turning at or near contact.
Hips turn to contact. They are done turning at or near contact.
quote:Originally posted by LevelPath19:
Anyone see the slo mo clips during home run derby? They were perfect illustartions of how the hips stop turning precisely AT contact. The slow mo clips are so precise that we can be specific about the exact sequence of the swing.
Hips turn to contact. They are done turning at or near contact.
Did you also notice that Josh Hamilton's arm action is the same as Barry Bonds and Ted Williams?
Home Run Derby:
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Home Run Derby:
Coach,
What are you showing with the two other clips? Hip sequence?
You just can't do this if you're rotating like heck....
You don't stay connected to the shoulders and do this, either...
You don't stay connected to the shoulders and do this, either...
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sometimes, slo-mo clips are deceiving and don't tell the entire story.....And, sometimes we look at the wrong things....
If concentrating on hip rotation is such a big deal, then, why do the hips stop rotating at, and in some cases before, ball contact?
It's like focusing on connection with the hands and arms to the shoulders....The shoulders don't turn the bat....The hands and arms do...
The shoulders and the hips are too slow to generate power by rotating....So, why connect to the shoulders?
In all these clips, the hips and the shoulders stop turning at, or before, ball contact...
So, just how meaningful is the rotation of the hips and shoulders?
Another thing I notice is, posture isn't a significant contributor to setting swing plane....
And, rotation is not what is pulling the back foot off the ground....
Bluedog,
Not sure I'm understanding all of what you are saying here. I believe the hips and shoulders create the stretch. The "tip and rip" help keep the stretch as long as possible and keeps the weight on the back leg as long as possible. I have found that the tip towards SS for a lefty (such as myself and my Son) works best for me and my Son, but not for everyone. Some, do and feel better with the bat behind the head but still tipped to Pitcher. I break the swing into 3 parts in the beginning to teach the hitter hip action (ala Epstein) and then add tip and rip and knee action. From that point on, the swing is one constant flow. Load is push bottom hand back, tip bat forward and coil hips back while going to front toe. I believe Ted Williams' foot action is best case scenario, but I'm not sure everyone can repeat that and isn't necessary to be successful. Pujols does it no stride and foot doesn't leave the ground and Ortiz strides toe open.
As far as connection, I believe if you disconnect too soon or don't connect at all, you will lose leverage and stretch.
As far as Posture, I believe much of that is determined by body type and comfort, not sure it effects the swing much.
I agree that rotation is not what pulls the foot off the ground. IMO, it is weight transfer and momentum.
Powertoallfields, I'd like to say that those posted videos are a part of a Socratic Method response and the for the viewer to interpret. However, we all know I'm not that smart. 
I put the video of Hamilton up because of the comment comparing his swing to Bonds. I thought that the readers might want a view of those swings from the HR Derby.
Actually, I could take several aspects of what I believe in regarding the swing and mention them per those videos. I could mention thoughts on "the box," connection, the hips, ... However, typically whenever I participate, all heck breaks loose and to be honest, I just don't want that to happen. If I find some time today, I'll pm some things to you and you can view the video for those things.
Take care!
Actually, I could take several aspects of what I believe in regarding the swing and mention them per those videos. I could mention thoughts on "the box," connection, the hips, ... However, typically whenever I participate, all heck breaks loose and to be honest, I just don't want that to happen. If I find some time today, I'll pm some things to you and you can view the video for those things.
Take care!
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Powertoallfields, I'd like to say that those posted videos are a part of a Socratic Method response and the for the viewer to interpret. However, we all know I'm not that smart.
Actually, I could take several aspects of what I believe in regarding the swing and mention them per those videos. I could mention thoughts on "the box," connection, the hips, ... However, typically whenever I participate, all heck breaks loose and to be honest, I just don't want that to happen. If I find some time today, I'll pm some things to you and you can view the video for those things.
Take care!
Sounds good! I'd like to ask you a couple of questions on them anyway. Thanks!
It looks like Hamilton is making contact with his arms almost fully extended. Don't the good hitters let the ball get deep?
quote:Originally posted by Catch43:
It looks like Hamilton is making contact with his arms almost fully extended. Don't the good hitters let the ball get deep?
Not if you are pulling the ball.
quote:I believe the hips and shoulders create the stretch.
Power, I don't see the shoulders creating stretch...
I do see the hands loading against the front hip creating stretch....
So, I believe the front hip and the hands create stretch...
quote:Originally posted by Catch43:
It looks like Hamilton is making contact with his arms almost fully extended. Don't the good hitters let the ball get deep?
It is a homerun derby,not a game.
BUT,some good hitters hit out front,BONDS and others let it get deep,PUJOLS.
I don't think hitting out front should be the objective because it makes timing more crucial.But that is just 1 mans opinion.
I also think he is hitting THROUGH extension,not at the end of it.quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:I believe the hips and shoulders create the stretch.
Power, I don't see the shoulders creating stretch...
I do see the hands loading against the front hip creating stretch....
So, I believe the front hip and the hands create stretch...
I think I see what you're saying. When I push my bottom hand back to get my front arm straight, I feel the stretch in my front shoulder and lat. When I tip the bat, my back elbow lifts and stretches my back shoulder and starts to stretch my core. As I stride opening my front knee and bathead is pulled back by the top hand toward the Catcher I feel stretch in my hips and butt and it further stretches my core, shoulders and front lat. As my front heel lands and back heel raises and knee tips in (Epstein's #2 position) further opening the hips against the hands, the stretch is complete. All that is needed now is to keep the wrists cocked while the hands, arms, and on some pitches the posture seeks the ball location or contact point.
The closest thing I can say to explaining what the hands are doing during bat tip and front knee cocking, is that you are trying to break the bat at a point between your two hands. As you go to the ball, you are trying to wring the water out of the handle of the bat.
How far off from what you believe happens is this?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:As my front heel lands and back heel raises and knee tips in (Epstein's #2 position) further opening the hips against the hands, the stretch is complete.
Power, there is a last instant stretch that, IMO, has nothing to do with the shoulders....
It's getting the hands as far away from the front hip as possible while the front hip has already opened in the stride, then swing the bat....It happens instantaneously.....It is X-factor cusp.....
IOW, don't get that last bit of stretch till you're gonna swing the bat....
Then, let the hands go....At the same time, let the weight shift.....
Forget connecting to the shoulders and forget rotation....That stuff will only slow your swing.....And, take away your adjustability....
I agree with the x factor or cusp, but what body parts are being stretched in your opinion?
quote:Forget connecting to the shoulders and forget rotation....That stuff will only slow your swing.....And, take away your adjustability....
I guess I don't really understand what you're meaning of connecting is. What, in your opinion, constitutes connection? John Cohen puts a rolled towel under the front arm pit. When that towel falls out is what I would consider the point of disconnection. The start of connection, IMO, is when the back elbow tucks and is best when tucked completely against the body. Do you not believe leverage is important in the swing? I feel like during my swing that when or if I lose leverage, I lose speed and power.
As far as rotation goes, I think you have to teach the difference in going back to front and turning your hips, so they get the feel of the core stretch. I believe you can have stretch without rotation, but not as much and it can be done with the front foot closed and by pushing off the inside of the back foot for the weight shift, but it makes you vulnerable to good offspeed pitches and you have to use your hands much more. One of Ichiro's swings uses this technique to a great extent.
Like you say, once I get the student to feel the difference, we don't have to "think" about rotation anymore, it just happens. I just find it easier to teach from the bottom up. I would say most good hitters already know how to rotate, so you don't need to teach it to them, but most younger hitters and more High School hitters than you might think, don't understand it or use it correctly. For me, getting the front arm straight and the hips open is instant gratification for the student and they are hooked from that moment on.
Also, I never talk about the shoulders when teaching. I touch the parts I want them to feel the stretch in and explain that they want to have maximum stretch when they start to swing at the ball and keep it as long as possible if fooled on the speed of a pitch.
I'm not sure the swing I have now is what you and Richard teach, but when he showed the "snap the pole off" drill, I started figuring out what I now do and the time I have to wait on a pitch now vs. what I had before is at least 10' more. You may think I am crazy, but I actually got the cusp part from watching Ted Williams' video and it showed him fly fishing. It was like "UREKA"!!! I actually cried! Scary stuff!
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Like you say, once I get the student to feel the difference, we don't have to "think" about rotation anymore, it just happens. I just find it easier to teach from the bottom up. I would say most good hitters already know how to rotate, so you don't need to teach it to them, but most younger hitters and more High School hitters than you might think, don't understand it or use it correctly. For me, getting the front arm straight and the hips open is instant gratification for the student and they are hooked from that moment on.
Very nicely stated,it is about the teaching.
quote:Originally posted by tfox:quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Like you say, once I get the student to feel the difference, we don't have to "think" about rotation anymore, it just happens. I just find it easier to teach from the bottom up. I would say most good hitters already know how to rotate, so you don't need to teach it to them, but most younger hitters and more High School hitters than you might think, don't understand it or use it correctly. For me, getting the front arm straight and the hips open is instant gratification for the student and they are hooked from that moment on.
Very nicely stated,it is about the teaching.
T,
I added more above, I can't stop! LOL! I am currently teaching 12 ten year old girls in 3 one hour sessions in one night. I have had 4 sessions with them and I love every minute of it, I'm ate up with it! The progress from lesson one to now is unbelievable. I never would have believed it from girls that age, maybe they don't start being bossy until they get married, LOL.
I assure you,it starts MUCH earlier than that.I have a 14 year old girl as proof. 
When the instructions is done right and the students are willing,the progress goes quick.I have seen it first hand as well from boys and girls.
I worked with 1, 10 year old boy for about 30 minutes at practice 1 day with a few of the Epstein drills and he went to the cages for bp with the team and was crushing the ball.His dad couldn't believe that was coming from his son.Didn't last,no commitment on their part.
When the instructions is done right and the students are willing,the progress goes quick.I have seen it first hand as well from boys and girls.
I worked with 1, 10 year old boy for about 30 minutes at practice 1 day with a few of the Epstein drills and he went to the cages for bp with the team and was crushing the ball.His dad couldn't believe that was coming from his son.Didn't last,no commitment on their part.
Blue,it was a kid that has no commitment to success.He doesn't want to work.It was a total of 30 minutes.
There are a whole bunch of success stories out there using methods like Power uses,I have seen it and so has he.
I agree with you,you do need to separate bp from live hitting and learn how to hit live pitching.But imo,you need to learn mechanics somewhere and that isn't in the game,unless you are a special athlete.(mechanics are learned in bp and hitting is leaned in the games)
There are a whole bunch of success stories out there using methods like Power uses,I have seen it and so has he.
I agree with you,you do need to separate bp from live hitting and learn how to hit live pitching.But imo,you need to learn mechanics somewhere and that isn't in the game,unless you are a special athlete.(mechanics are learned in bp and hitting is leaned in the games)
For the record,I didn't work on any connection drills.
Expalin to me how the heck you can separate the front hip from the back.
Expalin to me how the heck you can separate the front hip from the back.
How do you know he was being grooved easy to hit pitches?
This coach was throwing harder than anything the kid has seen in games and he was mixing it up.
This coach was throwing harder than anything the kid has seen in games and he was mixing it up.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
http://www.apa.org/releases/retention.html
This may help someone learn why success in BP far too often leads to failure in games....
The best Coach I know of believes players learn the most by failing......He wants his players going up against the best pitching as often as possible....quote:"The problem is that if people confuse the current sense of ease with learning, they'll prefer training conditions over real-life conditions."
bluedog,
I agree with the concept, but don't you think the player has to start with some base of knowledge of mechanics. I agree that, if willing to put in the work, you will find what your body is capable of doing and how to make what it can do work for you in game situations, but IMO you still need to know the basics and may need some tweaking along the way.
quote:but don't you think the player has to start with some base of knowledge of mechanics.
No....I'll even go one further than that....
The player doesn't wanna know the mechanics....
They just wanna be able to hit.....They don't care how, they just wanna be able to do it, that's all they care about......
Heck, MLB hitters don't even know what it is they're doing...But, they can do it, though....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:but don't you think the player has to start with some base of knowledge of mechanics.
No....I'll even go one further than that....
The player doesn't wanna know the mechanics....
They just wanna be able to hit.....They don't care how, they just wanna be able to do it, that's all they care about......
Heck, MLB hitters don't even know what it is they're doing...But, they can do it, though....
So, you are saying just put them in the box and keep throwing BP and they will learn to hit or put them in the box against the best Pitcher possible in their age group in game situations until they figure it out on their own?
I am saying, they learn by failing, not by succeeding....
You must fail to succeed.....
Don't make it easy...If you do, they will not learn......
You must fail to succeed.....
Don't make it easy...If you do, they will not learn......
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
I am saying, they learn by failing, not by succeeding....
You must fail to succeed.....
Don't make it easy...If you do, they will not learn......
I agree,only if they know WHY they failed.
quote:I agree,only if they know WHY they failed.
No...They don't care why....
Just show me how, is what they want.......Not why...
That would depend on why,now wouldn't it.
Some drop their hands,in the swing,not during load,some don't use their hips,at all(hand hitters)Others back out of the box,others are spinners.Some pull their heads.Some don't care.
For some it is purely mentall.
I think you get the picture.
I agreed with you,failure when understood can lead to succes.BUT,succes can bread succes as well.Confidence goes a long way.
We were getting somewhere then you go and change your post.
Some drop their hands,in the swing,not during load,some don't use their hips,at all(hand hitters)Others back out of the box,others are spinners.Some pull their heads.Some don't care.
For some it is purely mentall.
I think you get the picture.
I agreed with you,failure when understood can lead to succes.BUT,succes can bread succes as well.Confidence goes a long way.
We were getting somewhere then you go and change your post.
I didn't say they cared why,but they need to know why,or atleast know how to correct the why.
Yes, I did change my post..
I will tell you why.....'Cause, you are really into the mechanics aspect of swinging a bat..I'm not...
The truth is, hitters should drop their hands and arms while swinging the bat....
Concentrating on and correcting what you think are flaws is not what hitting is about....
A good example is the hips....There is a front hip and a back hip....They each have an individal function....And, they are different functions....
I will tell you why.....'Cause, you are really into the mechanics aspect of swinging a bat..I'm not...
The truth is, hitters should drop their hands and arms while swinging the bat....
Concentrating on and correcting what you think are flaws is not what hitting is about....
A good example is the hips....There is a front hip and a back hip....They each have an individal function....And, they are different functions....
