Hitting Instruction

I'll start: Last summer The Kid played up and we ran into some pitching. Results were mixed but we knew we were going to have to do something or we would fall behind.

He's always been able to get on - great eye, contact hitter with speed. No or very little pop at all.

We looked around on the 'net and decided on Englishbey. A lot of it because he made sense and because he is in an area where we go anyway once a year.

We got the videos, joined the website and got video critiqued, then went for a visit.

I have never been a hitting instructor and was surprised about what I didn't know.

I have also looked at Epstein videos and they make sense as well.

I understand coaches don't have a lot of time to teach and even if they did, they would likely get lynched by parents of they tried to change anything. I was really reluctant to do it because he had success previously. We talked about it and the downsides. And they happened. It took longer than even I thought, but we are starting to see the results on the field now.

I don't know of another way to do it except for outside help. If they don't how long will they be competitive?

I really appreciate boards like this that provide feedback, as there are a lot of options out there and a lot of information, both good and bad. Hitting instruction has come a long way since my day.

One of the best things I ever did was get The Mental Keys to Hitting and make him read it. It really helped get us through the rough patch as we changed the swing.

Just some random thoughts about our experience over the last 6 months or so.

I have stated this many times over. If a player expects to go to the next level, now a days, just playing high school baseball will not get it done. This is unfortunate but gone are the days of multiple sport athletes. My goal is to aide in getting my players as far as they can and if that means they do better with a private hitting coach then they do better with a private hitting coach. There are so many types of swings and approaches that I think the worst thing a coach can fall into is an "approach". A coaches approach is what he comfortable with and is go to in a time of need. What if "the approach" doesn't work with a specific kid and his needs? I have a lot of players that use private hitting coaches. All I ask is the parents are honest with me and that I can verify that the private coach is on the up and up. I attempt to work with every hitter within there context. As a varsity coach I can never forget what put them on the map in my eyes. To many times coaches forget this and try to change a hitter into what they think they should be. I will always attempt to work within the boundaries of a hitter. Now this is never all peaches. I have had to tell parents face to face that they need to pick. My way or the highway and I will not deny this. I have only had to say it a couple of times and it was only because the kid continued failing over and over again because he was using the approach that the hitting coach was preaching.

Good stuff Coach. Do you have parents that ask for recommendations for hitting instructors? Do you give them? DO you talk to the instructors?

I see here and hear a lot of coaches complaining about parents (not saying you are here). I think the dynamic has changed at least in part because of this requirement for outside instruction. Parents have a lot of money and in some cases time working with the instructor - who will often listen more than a school coach because he is being paid directly if for no other reason.

They put this work in and then see it going another direction, so it's not hard to see why that is frustrating.

What I don't see is a lot of interaction/communication between the instructors and the coaches. Maybe we aren't there yet, but I feel like it is going to have to happen eventually.

As far as the multi sport athlete being gone, I'm not so sure it is unfortunate. With so much competition for their attention now, maybe it was inevitable. If they choose and aren't pushed to a particular sport, how else are they going to see their potential?

We only play baseball. His choice. I was happy about it, but if I had had to, I would have done the same thing in any other sport. It's our thing we can do together. I was lucky.

The Kid and I usually go early to practice to get hitting work in. We were working a specific drill one day and the Asst Coach of his summer team walked by and physically tried to move his hands in set up. He had no idea what drill we were doing, what the purpose of it was or anything else. Practice hadn't started yet. I was not happy.

My philosophy with the school coaches has always been "It's their team, you do what the coach says." Then I talk to the coach when given a chance. conversational about what we're doing, what he's been working on, what the coach would like to see. It seems to work ok but I have the time. And I know he can't do it for all the parents - they mostly aren't there.

I think a lot of the problem is communication.

I am not a high school coach, but a parent. Local school has a very good baseball program. Players are free to work with any outside instructor they want to, but the head coach is clearly the boss when you are on his field, playing for him. He realizes it is counterproductive to try to limit outside instruction, to be a control freak. He is a very good coach and baseball man. I think that if someone was getting bad instruction from the outside, they would be told as much. Coach has a lot of goodwill and respect. He sees outside instruction as a good thing since it is going to improve his players.


You could say there is a "preferred" hitting instructor who has access to the high school facilities. My son is pre-high school and we use the HS facilities with the instructor in the winter.

From what I read on this site, we have a very functional situation.

Indeed it would appear you do. I think it's great that your coach is on board. Thanks for sharing.

Texas1836,

You have a great program. My kids HS coach does not allow outside instruction. Why....don't know...ego?

See if this sounds familiar to anybody?
Coach does not want outside instruction but they don't really instruct their players very much at all. Players pitch to each other in the cages and maybe one pitch in 10 is hittable. So they get about 15 good swings a day. Some days they bring out the batting cage on the field and they each get two ABs. The instruction... after they finish hitting, one of the coaches tell them what they did wrong.
Why in the world is the coach against outside instruction? Any instruction would be better than what they do. I think kids sneak out to get instruction and the HS coaches pat themselves on the back thinking it's them that are making their players hit so well. In fact I know that's the case.

Have you tried asking him his reasoning?

Yep... "they don't want the players learning anything that's different than what they teach".

If I had told them that they don't really teach much of anything, they could take it out on my kid or not play him. After talking to other parents in the area with kids at different schools, they all say the same thing I'm saying.

Mmm, not good. Does he coach football as well?

Has he seen what the outside guy is teaching?

You're right of course, a fall out could very easily affect the player.

No he doesn't coach football.

I don't know if they ever found out what the other guys are teaching.

What do you guys think about the HS coach putting out a memo saying what his philosophy is, what he's looking for and some examples of those that teach that kind of hitting?

NDD - That may work. Needs to be worded so that players and parents do not feel like they have to pay outside $ for instruction. I take it you mean philosophy on outside instruction. Clarity is always a good thing in my book.

Providing examples of sanctioned instructors could get hairy depending on the specifics. But I can see the reason for doing so if the coach feels like he has to. I am probably naive as I do not see how or why people would use a bad or subpar instructor. All a person has to do is develop relationships in the baseball community and will find out who is trusted and legitimate. Like parents care (or should care) who their kid hangs out with, they should care about things like instruction whether it is hitting, piano, swimming or whatever.

I don't know about other areas but here in the Philadelphia tri state area most public school coaches are teachers who may or may not have played beyond high school themselves. Most probably wouldn't know rotational hitting from oscilating hitting. My point is they really don't know enough to instruct a kid on hitting. And I don't thing they really try to. Like someone above stated they do BP every day but with no instruction.

At my son's high school the coaches were nice enough guys but knew very little about the game or hitting. They seemed more concerned with how the team behaved in the dugout than winning sometimes. If a player wanted to improve his swing he has no choice but to go to an outside instructor. And I don't think the coach cared at all.

IMO the bottom line with this outside instructor option is that if a player is producing during the season, his high school coach doesn't care much what the kid does on his own time. And he shouldn't.

If I were a HS coach who didn't know much about hitting I would recommend hitting instructors to my players. If the players hit better, the team could do better and it makes me look better. Win, win, win.

Well, yeah, philosophy on outside instruction, but I was thinking more about hitting philosophy. Agree on wording it so they do not feel obligated.

Also agree about suggesting being complicated. The potential for misconceptions is high. Perhaps suggestion as examples at a higher level. For example, "My philosophy on hitting is XYZ. And example of an instructor that teaches this type of hitting would be the John Doe videos." Then if they ask the coach he could give some names of people in the area if there are any. Real general like.

I guess my point is it can be frustrating if one spends the time with an instructor just to find out the coach has an opposing philosophy. It hasn't happened to me, but it seems to be an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I don't know about other areas but here in the Philadelphia tri state area most public school coaches are teachers who may or may not have played beyond high school themselves. Most probably wouldn't know rotational hitting from oscilating hitting. My point is they really don't know enough to instruct a kid on hitting. And I don't thing they really try to. Like someone above stated they do BP every day but with no instruction.

At my son's high school the coaches were nice enough guys but knew very little about the game or hitting. They seemed more concerned with how the team behaved in the dugout than winning sometimes. If a player wanted to improve his swing he has no choice but to go to an outside instructor. And I don't think the coach cared at all.

IMO the bottom line with this outside instructor option is that if a player is producing during the season, his high school coach doesn't care much what the kid does on his own time. And he shouldn't.

If I were a HS coach who didn't know much about hitting I would recommend hitting instructors to my players. If the players hit better, the team could do better and it makes me look better. Win, win, win.

thanks for sharing. I agree that many coaches don't have a problem with it and are probably very glad it's happening. but as we can see it ranges from that one end to prohibiting it completely.

My guess is most probably land somewhere in the middle: Recognize the need and want the kind of instruction that will integrate into the overall philosophy of the team.

As far as the highschool is concerned my son is very fortunate. The coaches philosophy and mine are the same. He uses epstein drills as well as a few others that teach this same philosophy. My son started learning this when he was 8 and he is 12 now and he played freshman ball this year so I talked to the varsity coach for an hour 1 night and got a great understanding of his approach.

His thing is with the rec league. Most of the coaches are swing down extension guys so he has alot of work every year trying to get his players back where they were. He has tried to work with the league but they refuse. But he doesn't tell them not to play unless you are on his legion team.


I had a big fight with my sons rec coach over it. He was trying to change what he was being taught and told me not to teach him.I had to explain the philosophy and he had no clue that is what is being taugt even though his son plays on the same freshman team.

tfox,
Thanks for sharing. I know experiences are different everywhere. In our area rec ball is fine for a lot of players that are playing for fun, to have a summer activity, to socialize. It is, IMO, a disaster for those players that want to play seriously.

I appreciate fathers that take their time to volunteer. But the things I've heard and still hear as they watch the HS games from the stands.

"Throw your hands at the ball!" "Swing level!" and my all time favorite "Be the hero!"

I asked the other day if it happens in football as well and was told yes, but you don't notice as much because they are further from the field.

Your HS coach coaches your Legion team? I think that's great.

The one thing about Legion that I don't like: If during the Legion season your son goes to a showcase or pro tryout he becomes ineligible as a legion player.

The pro try out I can understand. I didn't think there was a blanket prohibition on showcases. Doesn't it depend on the type?

I found it.

quote:

Any American Legion Baseball player missing any portion of an American Legion tournament because that player participated in another non-sanctioned baseball event such as an exhibition game, tournament
showcase, combine or other youth programs shall be ineligible for post-season tournament play.

Yeah, I don't care for that rule much either. Although I do understand the commitment concept. It should be up to the coach.

NDD,
I will recommend private hitting coaches if asked and most of the hitting instructors I know by reputation either good or bad. In regards to checking them out from time to time I have requested to the parent that I sit in on a lesson to hear what is going on so I know what is being taught and how it is being taught. It also gives me a first hand look at whether or not it will or will not work for the kid.

In regards to the multiple sport athlete I agree that it was only a matter of time and if a kid wants to then he should specialize. I just hear way to many parents who have 8 yr old children say their kid is only going to play baseball. At that age I think it is ridiculous, IMO.

I love that level of communication! Going and watching a lesson or two is a great idea.

Have you reciprocated?

All of my practices are open and I have allowed private coaches to watch. My only thing is during practices with other players involved they need to stay off the field, out of the way, and they can not talk to any players. With that said I have done one on one lessons in the same manner that a private coach does with the hitting coach present. This allows for more communication than if they are at a practice. I have parents and coaches alike both shocked at my openness to deal with private coaches and the lengths I will go to help players. My job, bottom line, is to help these kids go as far as they can go in this game.

The hitting instruction I've received makes little to no sense "Chop down the tree!" "Watch the ball hit the bat" (admittedly not the worst) "The shortest path between two points is a straight line" (Great, but that isn't the quickest path).

I respect all coaches. The fact that they give up their time for little to no financial compensation is fantastic. Same thing with Little League and Babe Ruth coaches (even though there are some that you say "Yes, Sir/Coach" and then continue doing what you were doing before).

With regard to hitting instruction in my area, there isn't that much. (I don't live in a big baseball area) Of course, there are some clinics that George Mason puts on and some hitting clinics done by Epstein from time to time.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
All of my practices are open and I have allowed private coaches to watch. My only thing is during practices with other players involved they need to stay off the field, out of the way, and they can not talk to any players. With that said I have done one on one lessons in the same manner that a private coach does with the hitting coach present. This allows for more communication than if they are at a practice. I have parents and coaches alike both shocked at my openness to deal with private coaches and the lengths I will go to help players. My job, bottom line, is to help these kids go as far as they can go in this game.

Excellent! And I agree with your rules whole-heartedly. He should be sitting there taking notes for later work.

If I can get you past that desire to get your players HBP, we may come play for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
The hitting instruction I've received makes little to no sense "Chop down the tree!" "Watch the ball hit the bat" (admittedly not the worst) "The shortest path between two points is a straight line" (Great, but that isn't the quickest path).

I respect all coaches. The fact that they give up their time for little to no financial compensation is fantastic. Same thing with Little League and Babe Ruth coaches (even though there are some that you say "Yes, Sir/Coach" and then continue doing what you were doing before).

With regard to hitting instruction in my area, there isn't that much. (I don't live in a big baseball area) Of course, there are some clinics that George Mason puts on and some hitting clinics done by Epstein from time to time.

You mean the instruction/cues you've received from your school coaches?

Have you been to an Epstein clinic?

Lol NDD I can promise you that I would rather have a kid lace a ball in the alley for 2 RBI than lean into a pitch. I just do not want my kids jumping out of the way, and yes sometimes I actually mean jumping, out of the way of a pitch and being scared of the baseball.

tfox - you guys lost a legend in baseball coaching a few months ago didn't you? I was very sad to hear about Coach Wayne's passing. I only got to talk to him a few times for very short periods of time but you could tell he knew his stuff.

I will say this about the topic - I'm going to teach hitting in practice. I'm going to set up drills and work one on one with as many kids as I can. I realize it's not the best set up and this is why I keep my philosophy very simple - attack fastballs early and hit the ball hard where it's pitched. I don't get into philosophy of rotational, linear, Epstein, Lau or anybody else. Reason being their are constants in every philosopohy and that's what I teach. I'm not going to cookie cutter every kid and I'm not going to go out of my way to change something just to be changing.

If a kid wants to get help outside of what I teach then so be it. I'm not going to stop them. I can control the 2 - 3 hours we are practicing but outside of that I can't control it and I'm not going to dictate anything. If dad wants to take them to their backyard or wherever and work then so be it. The way I look at it is - if a kid is hitting lasers all over the field my coaching is going to consist of "atta boy" and "good job; keep it up". If it's due to my coaching then sweet. If it's due to someone else coaching then sweet. If it's due to a combonation of the two then.....you guessed it - sweet. Bottom line I have two goals 1) win and 2) get the kids to the next level.

I will say this - anything extra will not take place during my 2 - 3 hours of practice. Private coaches and dads will not come onto my field nor will players miss practice to get instruction.

If a kid isn't hitting then he's sitting (unless he's got a super glove then I'm going to hit for him)

Coach2709,
Thanks for contributing. I agree about people on the field. I think the place for fathers/instructors is in the stands observing. Taking notes. Quietly.

"if a kid isn't hitting he's sitting" - Mmmmmm. I get it. Perhaps patience is an old man's virtue.

Thanks again.

The best thing i have heard on this sunject is the plain fact that your coach makes the lineup, not your private instructor. If you aren't a coachable player, you will sit and i know i'm a player, but the thing parents should understand is too many voices in a kids ear isn't good for a player.

i have a pitching coach, i have the whole staff of high school coaches, i have a legion coach, and i have travle coaches. When someone gives me a tip, i say yes sir and try it out. If it helps, keep it. If not, then go back to what works. This summer, I was on a team with parents trying to coach from the stands and it gets too much. come game time, a player shouldn't be making drastic changes. he should be getting the job done and i don't quite know if a parent realizes what they are telling their kid isn't a rational game time correction. it just makes a kid focus on more than getting the job done

there is a time and place for a private coach and the ones i have been lucky enough to work with have helped me be better than i would be without them no doubt. but when a coach says something, the response "well my private coach says...." is unaccaptable. if you are asking them if they see it too then ok. but your private coach doesn't make the lineup.

just my .02

Thank you bigheat (got a fastball huh?),

It is nice to hear from yet another player. I couldn't agree more with the "instruction" from the stands. You should hear it from the stands, you probably miss some of it on the field. LOL.

And most of it is nervous, mindless babble. As I said before my all time favorite is "BE THE HERO!" shouted at a young player just before the pitch delivery. I was amazed. Another favorite is hitting instruction from the coaches box between pitches.

We are mostly discussing practice here, not so much during the game. And look at it like this, if you can learn to block out the screams of the dads and moms, you won't have much problem with 50K fans when you get to the show. LOL.

I have a confession, when the Rangers or Rockies are playing, I yell instructions at the TV. Mostly at the pitchers to throw strikes and pitch to contact.

Coach2709

Yes we lost a coach a couple months ago but he was no longer with our school. Too much to get in to but they did name the field after him.


My son is playing in the cal ripken ohio valley nationals right now.(I posted earlier in a rain delay)he started hitting well when I convinced the rec coach to leave him alone. He batted 540 with a homerun at state. He went 4-4 today. I only say this to point out to SOME coaches that less can be more. Allow the hitters to hit.

quote:

Originally posted by bigheat27-42:
The best thing i have heard on this sunject is the plain fact that your coach makes the lineup, not your private instructor. If you aren't a coachable player, you will sit and i know i'm a player, but the thing parents should understand is too many voices in a kids ear isn't good for a player.

i have a pitching coach, i have the whole staff of high school coaches, i have a legion coach, and i have travle coaches. When someone gives me a tip, i say yes sir and try it out. If it helps, keep it. If not, then go back to what works. This summer, I was on a team with parents trying to coach from the stands and it gets too much. come game time, a player shouldn't be making drastic changes. he should be getting the job done and i don't quite know if a parent realizes what they are telling their kid isn't a rational game time correction. it just makes a kid focus on more than getting the job done

there is a time and place for a private coach and the ones i have been lucky enough to work with have helped me be better than i would be without them no doubt. but when a coach says something, the response "well my private coach says...." is unaccaptable. if you are asking them if they see it too then ok. but your private coach doesn't make the lineup.

just my .02

Outstanding post and tons of good points. The one point I like most is about having too many voices saying what to do. It can get overwhelming hearing a thousand things a thousand ways. Which leads me to the next point you made that I liked. A player needs to understand what they can and cannot do; what is and what isn't comfortable on their own. Ultimately it comes down to if the player is comfortable and it's not going to cause harm. IF those two things are good to go and the kid is having success then don't overcoach them. Let them perform.

I hardly ever and I mean ever instruct during a game. By that point it's too late and any change would be counter productive to getting good results. I may remind a player about something we worked on but outside of that they either do it or they don't do it.

The problem I see with only having one person being the instructor is the player turns into a robot. Their head is filled with this step, then this step, then this step and then this step. It's good to hear coaching from a few different sources but need to be careful that it doesn't become overwhelming. Bottom line - if they produce they stay in the lineup.

NDD - not sure I understand where you're going with the "patience is an old man's virtue."

When I was younger and coaching, if they weren't hitting they were sitting. As I have gotten older, I have come to realize that in order to hit they have to have at bats and sitting on the bench never brought anybody out of a hard time. And knowing they are going to sit if they don't hit causes a great deal of pressure they certainly won't help - especially since the reason they aren't hitting is that they are probably pressing to begin with.

The Kid and I were talking about this tonight. In the Bigs, going 0-15 or even more is not that uncommon. There was a Bluejay that was 1-24.

If he goes 4 games without a hit it's 0-15, but it's 1/5 of his season and he probably won't even get there before he's benched. In a lot of ways the young players have it tougher.

Anyway, if they aren't hitting, sitting isn't going to change it.

Hitting is one of the few things in life where "try harder" makes it worse.

Well it's pointless to compare MLB to HS struggles due to the lack of at bats. You're right in that in the bigs you'll see an 0 - 15 and it's not a big deal but an 0 - 15 will kill you in a high school season. It can kill a team as well.

Let preface it by saying this - if I have a guy who is struggling but he's hitting the ball hard but at people or if he's having good at bats (lots of pitches, working counts, etc...) or if his swing looks good but he's not hitting I'm not going to take this guy out of the lineup until it gets drastic.

The kid who ain't hitting that's sitting is the kid who isn't producing at all. Weak contact, quick at bats and ugly swing - this kid will be sitting because he doesn't have it. It could be due to listening to too many people, not listening to anybody or just not having it period. This kid is going to sit until he can show me he can hit in practice and then he will get a chance.

The kid who looks good but for whatever reason isn't getting it done will get more leeway in terms of chances but at some point you do have to sit them. Get back to basics, get on the tee, take a break to find a more positive frame of mind, etc......

We can talk about development for the next level and all that but the name of the game is to perform in games and win them. It's not a individual opportunity to work through a lot of things. If you can't help the team win then somebody else has to be put in to help the team win. If that destroys your confidence then I have to question the mental toughness in the first place. Adversity is part of the game and you have to overcome. Dealing with adversity is handing the pressure that comes with not performing. Speaking for myself I'm not going to add to that (or try to) by telling them they need to start performing. It's something they have to deal with and if they don't then they need to sit.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
The hitting instruction I've received makes little to no sense "Chop down the tree!" "Watch the ball hit the bat" (admittedly not the worst) "The shortest path between two points is a straight line" (Great, but that isn't the quickest path).

I respect all coaches. The fact that they give up their time for little to no financial compensation is fantastic. Same thing with Little League and Babe Ruth coaches (even though there are some that you say "Yes, Sir/Coach" and then continue doing what you were doing before).

With regard to hitting instruction in my area, there isn't that much. (I don't live in a big baseball area) Of course, there are some clinics that George Mason puts on and some hitting clinics done by Epstein from time to time.

You mean the instruction/cues you've received from your school coaches?

Have you been to an Epstein clinic?

Yes, I mean the instruction/cues I have gotten from both school and Little League/Babe Ruth coaches.
I have not been to an Epstein clinic. I do own the book Mike Epstein on Hitting, as well as the CD, How to Hit Your Potential in 7 Days. He does clinics in my area from time to time (over at Pinkman)

I like the CD a lot more. Epstein, IMO, describes the MLB swing better than anybody else who has a DVD out there. (now that he's gotten away from the weight on the back foot)