Honesty and Ethics in score keeping

Can someone move this to statistics and scorekeeping?

I'm sorry but I don't consider this a stats and scorekeeping forum. It is more about honesty and ethics. I don't need help keeping score. I want to know if people find that the records that are kept by the people in charge are legitimate?

bb1

I many areas the stats are what they are: good, bad or indifferent---has nothing to do with ethics, legitimacy etc--in many regions it is a student who loves the game who keeps score and they are true amateurs

Most parents keep their own stats anyway

bb1:

It's an interesting issue. In the end, it does not much matter, but the coaches I know who really care have a scorekeeper and then on their own make whatever corrections they think necessary. But in high school -- and even in college -- scorekeeping philosophies and judgements will vary more than you might think.

I thought this was a joke at first (see the latter pages of How do I get my son noticed?). But, I see that it has some legitimacy.

I've read elsewhere that HS stats can be notoriously inaccurate.

(We'll see how long this thread stays sane. )

That I guess is the real question. How much do high school coaches rely on stats? Do they change things to make kids look good? There were obvious errors that were changed to hits by the coaches. One of which has connections to one of the kids. Also how do coaches feel when they see a parent keeping their own book? After this game I am very tempted to do that but wonder what if any reprecussions my son may suffer.

It's pretty common that scorebooks end up being 'questionable" ... for whatever reason. As coaches we'll see it when it comes to all-conference time.

After yesterday I have no doubt that score books are questionable. However, I feel this was done to make certain stats of certain players look better. I'd much rather know that things were on the up an up instead of wondering who really did what. Is it okay for me to keep a book without worrying how it looks?

I think its a general problem nationally. It caused the most problems for me when involved in determining post season honors such as All State. You want to recognize the most deserving kids so I had to dig beyond the stats. I was always agitated by lacking defensive stats and the amazing # of SS/2nd basemen that would finish with 1 or 2 errors.

I couldn't imagine trying to pick an All-State team or even an all conference team knowing what I know now. I wouldn't have believed it but it is true. As to what level I am not sure. A question I haven't had answered yet though is: Is it okay for a parent to keep his own book? Or is that kind of tacky?

Son is sophmore on JV team and I keep score at every game. I am not the OSK. It keeps me busy durning the game and is fun to do. I do compile that stats at home, but do not publish them in anyway and do not even share them with son or anyone else. In discussing games with the OSK I noticed that we scored some plays differently. I might score a base hit, he might score it an error. Judgement calls. Of course his book is the offical book. I guess his judgement is always correct as he has the last word, but I never change my book. I saw it one way and he saw it another. Keeping score could become a very big problem if you use the stats to complain about the coach, players etc. then the coach will have a big problem

Sounds like the coach saw some of the plays different than you did and made changes. I think this is not unusual at the HS level. Is he doing it to pad stats, can't say. Would give the coach the benifit of the doubt without any further proof. If happens after each game then you might have a point. Just could be simply a difference in opinion. As I said early the OSK or coaches judgement will always be right as they have the last word. I guess scorebooks will always be questionable as they are being kept by no professionals. In a perfect world a scorebook at the HS level would be kept by a professional scorekeeper that has no vested interest in either team. Even with a pro scorekeeper, he has the option to make changes to a book for up to 24 hours after a game.

If being the OSK might cause you to question the coach etc. I would pass, but keep your own book to have fun and track the teams stats. In an unoffical way.

I was the official scorekeeper for this game. I can understand changing one or possibly even 2 plays. However, when there are 6, that is wrong. There were a couple of other people I knew there a coach and a scout. After finding out what had been done I spoke to them and they both agreed having seen me score before that my judgement was correct. Therefore, I will not be keeping score for the team anymore. I also won't keep my own book because I would compare it to the actual stats and no good would come of it. So for now I'll just say and do all the right things and try and sit back and enjoy regardless of what I know is going on. If it becomes too much to bear then my son may have a decision to make as to whether he wants to remain in the program or move on. That will be totally up to him and I will remind him that the grass is always greener on the other side until you get there.

My wife was the one who always did it while i was coaching and she was always very strict in giving hits or errors or when deciding between singles, doubles, etc. You only cheat yourself or your team when fudging the numbers.

This year i was asked to keep the book for our team, and i am just as strict with it.If there is something questionable, ill ask the coaches about it and let them decide.

At the HS or competive travel level I was/am very strict - sometimes too stict on my son to make sure no one could question my ethics.

Early on in Rec, if a kid didnt have a hit all year and somehow made it to 1st, I would try to give him a hit unless it was just impossible to justify.

What can I say, my heart got in the way of my better judgement.

Again, I must ask, what difference does it make? You do not need stats to see which players are the best, especially in high school.

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
Again, I must ask, what difference does it make? You do not need stats to see which players are the best, especially in high school.

I understand your point - my son had a month last summer where he was just cranking the ball....but almost always right at someone. He almost killed a few 3rd basemen.

But, stats are a part of baseball and always will be.

quote:

How many of you feel that your high school score books are not quite right?

Hmmm,....considering our stat girl ( who I am sure ) is trying her best to ethically and honestly keep our scorebooks to the best of her ability ( god bless her,..she's a 12 year old sister of a team mate ) while running around petting everyone's pet puppy and talking on her cell phone.

It sure is a good thing that some people feel that :

quote:

You do not need stats to see which players are the best, especially in high school.

In our case, we are banking on it!

You do need stats, they are part of the game. I agree we know who the best players are but the coaches I'm not so sure about. Especially at the lower levels. I'm sorry but this is not little league and everything is not a hit. When a person connected to the coach drops a ROUTINE fly ball and it goes as a double, who does that hurt. The pitcher. How about when the stats show a kid that went 4 for 3. That's correct 4 for 3. Or a kid that has multiple extra base hits but really has none. Or a kid that went 3 for 3 with a couple of extra basehits yet his stats are totally eliminated from the game. They don't show anywhere. A 12yr old girl keeping stats in HS is unreal. I would understand the coach changing the scoring.
Next year when they are trying to decide between kids of similar ability, how do they break the tie. Could it possibly be last years stats? I've seen kids that rip the cover off the ball in practice but game time you can't find them. My son practices hard but just doesn't show it all in practice. Which is a problem. Turn the lights on though and you'll see a different kid. One who wants to bat with the game on the line, one who wants to be on the mound, one who wants the ball hit to him when it counts. Those things will show up in the stats as hits and wins.

I don't think really good coaches rely on stats to know who the better players are, especially in HS.

Stats are a part of the game in baseball, the higher up you go the more important the stats. I never put too much into HS stats, neither do college recruiters or pro scouts, IMO. My son never had great stats, still doesn't and maybe never will. But that didn't stop him from playing, getting a good scholarship and maybe someday playing in pro ball. You might not understand that now, but you will later on.

I think as a new parent to the HS game, you have a lot of anxiety, as suggested before, sit back and relax, help your son to achieve his highest potential on and off the field and he will go places you could never imagine.

JMO.

Right now the anxiety for many parents is high not just myself. I see kids getting opportunities because things the parents either do or complain about. I will never do that. He has to earn his way and he'll be better for it. This is just a way to vent the frustrations so I don't say or do the wrong thing.
I know for a fact a kid that is now playing in a great JUCO program, there were college coaches that checked his stats online. Since they couldn't be there the only thing to do was check to see how he was doing. There were many times stats were incorrect and his parents had to keep checking. It might have cost him in more ways then one.

For years both my husband and I were totally oblivious to our sons' stats. We didn't have a clue about their BA or ERA through Little League or early high school. It wasn't until they appeared in newspapers during their varsity years that I became aware of stats...and that knowledge has diminished my pleasure as a fan ever since. I wish I could go back to the day when the only stat we knew was the team's win/loss record.

My advise...trust your instincts. Put away the scorebook and take in the whole game experience. Breathe in the fresh air, smell the grass, and enjoy the people around you. Those simple pleasures won't last forever and are the memories you'll treasure most 10 years from now.

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
Right now the anxiety for many parents is high not just myself. I see kids getting opportunities because things the parents either do or complain about. I will never do that. He has to earn his way and he'll be better for it. This is just a way to vent the frustrations so I don't say or do the wrong thing.
I know for a fact a kid that is now playing in a great JUCO program, there were college coaches that checked his stats online. Since they couldn't be there the only thing to do was check to see how he was doing. There were many times stats were incorrect and his parents had to keep checking. It might have cost him in more ways then one.

First, don't worry about what other parents do or don't do.

Second, as a parent of a HS freshman the most important stats you should be worried about are his GPA. That opens more doors than you can imagine.

Third as far as some coach deciding on offering my son an opportunity, it's going to be AFTER he or anyone else he knows has seen him play.

The above post comes from a mom of a MLB player, her advice is right on.

BTW, if you are going to worry about these things for the next 4 years, you're going to have an ulcer!

I enjoy stats as much as the next guy, but I also understand them and how they come about and I must add this to the conversation: Stats in the very high and very low range can attract attention, but I have never known a single college coach (and I know quite a few of them at all levels) to make a decision on a kid based on high school stats. Too many factors come into play. These include level of the competition, inconsistent standards and the misleading nature of stats themselves, particularly batting average, weather, field dimensions etc....

As I said, I don't see the cause for concern.

quote:

For years both my husband and I were totally oblivious to our sons' stats. We didn't have a clue about their BA or ERA through Little League or early high school. It wasn't until they appeared in newspaper during their varsity years that I became interested...and that knowledge has diminished my pleasure as a fan ever since. I wish I could go back to the day when the only stat we knew was the team's win/loss record.

My advise...stick to your insticts. Put away the scorebook and take in the whole game experience. Breathe in the fresh air, smell the grass, and enjoy the people around you. Those simple pleasures won't last forever and are the memories you'll treasure most 10 years from now.

That has got to be one of the best posts ever

I agree with that perception absolutely. It is however easier said then done. I will try as hard as possible. I will bite my tongue when I see a kid that gets benefits because his parents are on the booster board. Or when a charity hop grounder goes as a hit. Or when a kid that plays football gets perks because the coaches also coach football. Even when I know the book is a joke. I will not keep my own book. I will come here to complain and get great advice from people who have been there. This being our first time through high school I had perceptions of better coaching, of kids getting a chance on ability and effort not their parents money. That all the garbage that goes on in travel ball would be over. However, reality has set in and now it's all the same just on a bigger scale. I'll help my son get better and have fun doing it, to keep his eye on his dream and not get caught up ( as I already have) in all the political stuff that goes on. He'll keep getting his opportunities because he can play. He just might not be the first choice and that's okay because when he does get his chances he will excel. I'll be in the background enjoying every last minute of what is sure to be a lot of fun for him.

quote:

by jemez: Again, I must ask, what difference does it make? You do not need stats to see which players are the best, especially in high school.

quote:

by b1: I couldn't imagine trying to pick an All-State team or even an all conference team knowing what I know now.

a few observations re HS

a) b1, OSK is your title (volunteer), head coach is his job (paid) - HC trumps OSK

b) some may not realize that All-County, All-Region, All-State players are selected sight unseen ... yup stats

c) it's common for players whom NCAA coaches consider the best in their state to be passed up for Awards by others with much better stats (stats that had "help")

d) if even ONE team in your county, region, or state cooks their books - others MUST ALSO cook to protect their player's standing in the "percieved pecking order" - it's simple

hope that helps

bee, OSK is your title (volunteer), head coach is his job (paid) - HC trumps OSK
That is unfortunate but true. Something that in the majority of cases is probably correct but in this case it is not. Just something we'll have to live with, it is what it is so to speak.

by jemez: Again, I must ask, what difference does it make? You do not need stats to see which players are the best, especially in high school.
The people who actually have time to watch the kids know who the best are but what about the ones who can't always be at the game and have to only rely on stats. The ones that choose the all-state teams, the coaches that need help choosing between one player or another for college. It does make a difference. However, not everyone plays fair and until then. It really is what it is!

Forgot the most important thing. He has a 4.0

bb1,
This is my last post and hope it is taken in the spirit it is given.

Your son is a freshman in HS. You are too caught up in things that don't matter right now. You are worried about college, you shouldn't have to be at this point in your son's early HS career. If you keep this up, you are going to be one unhappy camper for 4 years.

That is exactly why I am here. I will absolutely enjoy the next 4 years as they could be the last ones. I refused to keep score before because I wanted to sit back relax and take pictures. Which I missed out on the 6 years before because I was keeping score. Since they asked me to do it this game, I found out things that I would rather have not. I wish I had refused to it. That being said I will indeed be fine watching my son do what he loves and enjoys doing and hopefully it will continue beyond HS. If it doesn't that will be fine at least he had fun doing it. He is enjoying his new teammates some of which he knew before but most he did not becasue they played in different circles. He's having fun and that is what really counts the most.

All but one of my son's teams have had rigged scorekeeping.I just started keeping my own stats so he & I knew his real ones.The scorekeepers kid was ALWAYS in the top three in batting,but ALWAYS batted in the backend of the lineup. No big deal,coach(s) knew the deal.Oh well ,son & I are making the best of it & gaining a "lesson" in life.

bb1,

Sounds like you are making the right choice. You will enjoy the season much more, but I still feel you can keep your own book and have fun doing it. Sorry to see you in this situation. It does sound as if the book is getting cooked. I remember how excited we were to finally be in HS BB to get away from daddy ball, politics, etc.. Unfortunately we experienced a little bit of both. Not to the extent you seem to be facing. Good luck to your son this season.

I was the OSK for high school, and for my son’s select summer team and I NEVER felt the urge to pad stats one way or the other.
Stats were important to me and continue to be important to me but I see them for what they are. Like the umpire’s calls, the statistician’s opinion might be questionable but I feel as if mistakes go both ways and evens out in the long run. While I agree with the suggestion that most parents need to ignore the stats and become a fan again, I also know some parents can also enjoy the technical aspect of the game if you understand the true usefulness or worthlessness of stats. I used stats as a tool to help my son get better ---- I did NOT use stats to make me feel better. I can give you examples of where my son led in “bad” stats and I can also give you examples of where he led in good stats. While I still read his team stats on a daily basis, once he went to college and on into pro ball I never kept another scorebook. I’ll be honest with you, the first thing I that comes to my mind when I hear a parent complains about the OSK is --- here is another parent that is so “caught up” in THEIR child that they want everything to be slanted in their son’s favor. This reminds me of the losing pitcher’s parent that blames the offense for failing to give their son run support. Gimme a break. Stats? As they say ---- Read ‘em and weep!
Fungo

Speaking of stats - once the local paper had us winning the game. They stated one of the other teams player as having so many RBI's. They then listed my son as being on the other team and having so many RBI's. Of course just those two RBI's totals were more than the other team scored. So... hard to send that clipping anywhere.
I would think that most scores are called in everywhere and communication isn't always the best. My son put an ad in the newspaper the other week for some "roll bars" he was selling. They came out in the ad as "row bars". No one called - I wonder why.

Tim Robertson

Like so many here, we have interest in a number of colleges across this country.....
And pay attention to a smaller number....
And after one particular game noticed that the "official stats" posted on their websites had a discrepancy....
College ABC listed player #A with a "hit"!
While College DEF listed that same play as an "error".

I guess the books can be cooked at the college level, too.

It truly disturbs me when parents term "oddities" in scorekeeping as "unethical" and "cooking the books"

I think you all need to relax a bit---

At the local high school students are the official scorekeepers....

And magically, certain players are ALWAYS charged with errors when in the field (if the ball is hit too hard to handle), yet if others are not able to get to the ball--or if they flat out couldn't handle it (a true error)-- it would not be an error; it would be scored a hit for the opposing player.

And the flip while they batted--- when they hit a hard hit ball that couldn't be handled,it was scored an error---yet when others hit like that--HIT!!!

I guess like beauty, hits and errors are in the eyes of the beholder....

TR, if you are referring to me, I'm plenty relaxed.

I just find it curious, is all.

Hit or error?

play baseball


This is what I mean---I wasnt referring to you at all---just a general statement---you all need to relax and not take it all so seriously

The coaches and scouts know who the players are--they could care less about stats

TR: I'm glad you weren't referring to me. My kids are on spring break (me, too), the temperature in Chicagoland will approach 80 degrees for the second day in a row and rain isn't forecast until tonight! I'm plenty relaxed!!!!

But statistics DO matter---maybe not to those who are true prospects---everyone can see how hard they hit the ball...but stats do matter for those whose kids have a shot at "local celebrity"--local "all-area" or (small, meaningless) "all-conference" or "all-whatever". And that is as far as they will go. No scouts will watch them (even if the scouts are there scouting someone else on the team). That's the time the scouts will grab a pop or a pretzel...when the non-prospects are at the plate. Or pitching. The guns are not even brought out, even though the pitcher may be more effective than who they are scouting.

Here's how the local paper in my little corner of the world lists their "all-area" players. The hs coach sends a roster with the stats listed. The paper chooses anyone with a particular batting average, who also played in a set number of games. Again, this may be the only chance for local stardom a kid has---the chance to clip the paper and send it to relatives outside of the readership area. Of course they know they aren't All-State material. (But even they are often sight unseen, visible only by their statistics.)

Even at small D3 schools there is a spot to list a potential player's batting averages on the recruiting form. I have never seen a spot titled "Hit it really hard, but it was right at someone", or "Hit a screamer but the fielder made an unbelievable play." Yes. The scouts and coaches know the difference.

TR, I do understand your suggestion that parents chill out about statistics. We have seen way too many parents go totally overboard. But please understand that statistics are important to alot of players who know they aren't going anywhere but college--to get an education and maybe be able to play a little baseball on a nice spring day.