Honesty and Ethics in score keeping

quote:

I think we would be surprised as to the reaction of coaches knowing what they are seeing is correct and they don't have to read between the lines.

bb1,

HS is a soap opera to begin with with fiction running amuck so the fact the books may be juiced are a fact of HS life. College coaches know this and that is a reason they are not taken seriously. Players know it, and that is another chapter in "The Life of a HS Student", and they deal with it on their terms and the two groups do not cross paths dealing with the same book of fables. We are talking thousands of HS schools in the country and not one will have completly accurate book even if you do it because not everyone will agree with your assessment of every play. That is the nature of the beast. Unless you fix the problem accross the board, which won't happen, every book must be percieved as "juiced". So we have to live with it, the kids do, and college coaches will always draw their own opinions.

What the heck is wrong with some of our members who should know better? Could you please quit being so mean? (rz1, I'm not talking to you, I just happened to post right after you did.)

New members come on and post questions and are sorry that they did, because some Old Timers jump all over them and say they must be all caught up in some kind of parental mistakes.

Then a nice mom like play baseball (Who could possibly be nicer than play baseball??? Not very many members I have seen, though there are a few who are probably tied with her.) Anyway, a nice mom like play baseball posts a different perspective, a very thoughtful explanation of the players to whom stats DO mean something, the players who may not play beyond HS and will look back at their HS sports accomplishments as their "Glory Days". I enjoyed reading that perspective and think it is very true of a significant segment of the players and parents for whom this site is also meant. But I digress, my point is ...

I can't stand the meanness and rudeness! There are some new members who might come on and say the wrong thing accidentally, or even purposely pick a fight with members who were here before, and it's tough sometimes to sort those situations out and help find a positive resolution. But if some of our members who have been here for more than a few months are going to pick on someone like play baseball for something she said, then I can tell you without doing a lot of research and investigation, you are WRONG! If you can't be respectful to someone as nice as that, who always has a kind word for everyone, then please, take a step back and think about why you are here, why we are all here.

I don't care who gets mad at me over this post. I already have a few people upset with me because I have asked some Old Timers, people who have been here long enough to know better, to stop and remember what makes our site different. I'm not trying to be a mean old Mom ... in fact I am very near tears and just asking for help from all of you. Let's return to showing more respect and kindness, to our old friends and potential new ones.

Julie
jas@pclink.com

Hey, play baseball should be given more respect!

After all, she's Gotwood's better half!

MN-Mom
I'm not going anywhere. I can handle these old geezers because of the good people. Especially the good ones like Texan who sent me a PM.
This started out as a question about score keeping. I found out what I wanted to know and that is basically it is a joke. Why people feel that it can't be changed, I don't understand. I would love for my sons school to become known as the one that does it right. I'm sure there are already schools out there that have that reputation and others where people know the stats are so called cooked.
I will keep coming back because there is so much that can be learned from past experiences. That is what this site should be about " Those who have been there, helping those going through it".

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
After all, she's Gotwood's better half!

Now there's the "kiss of death"


But we luv ya anyways Annette

bb1,
Said I wasn't going to post but can't help myself.

You came with a dilemma.

Most of the parents here that have given you some feedback (is that good Julie ) and expressed individual opinions... many of these people have or have had college players, pro players as well.

The general consensus seems to be all the same. Yet you seem resentful of the opinions expressed here.

I take offense to being called an old geezer. Comments like that, have a way of being taken the wrong way. This is what creates bad feelings..

TR and Bee said something very interesting and I found it to be true. Summer travel teams very rarely report stats nor do the players care. Not one college coach ever came to watch son play in HS, but they were in full force during the summer, that is when they are out recruiting, they want to see you play and if they can't they send someone else to do it for them. You'll understand this later on as he gets older. Stats are subjective due to the fact that you never know who is taking them. Coaches don't need stats to see who has a hot bat and who doesn't, who can strike out a hitter and who can't.

I understand how you would be upset, it's like if your son's geometry teacher gave a C instead of a B for whatever reason. Some folks feel not giving the correct stats in an extra curricular activity is not fair, and I agree, but it is what it is, an extra curricular activity. You will understand, in a few years, that visual performance, GPA, SAT,ACT is what really matters.

If your son asks why stats don't reflect real performance, tell him the truth, it happens, but remind him to play his best, rely on other resources down the raod other than HS ball and someone will notice him.

NICE LIPS RZ!

The old geezer comment was meant in jest. However , since no one seems to mind who they offend then I do indeed stand by it. While I haven't been through it before I am by far a novice. I can surely learn along the way hopefully minimizing any mistakes along the way and never making the same mistake twice. Like seeking advice from those who supposedly know. Once again the purpose of this board should be to help others if it is not then let me know now. And I will apologize for thinking I might get help here. For now I'll watch and see how many more new comers looking for advice you can turn away to keep this your own little universe.
TPM--your first post to this discussion was to have it moved. How helpful was that.

It was about scorekeeping, what was wrong with that suggestion?

If in jest, refer to the little smiley face and click, there you can choose a something that will help express your feelings.

Who said old geezers aren't helful.

I think that you have gotten help here, and I don't think anyone has treated you unkindly or not offered suggestions about your dilemma, it just may not be what you want to hear.

It is easier for us old geezers because we know each other's good and bad posting habits.

But I am sorry, for a relatively new poster I think you have an attitude just like some of us old geezers do on occassion. JMP = just my perception.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

I take offense to being called an old geezer. Comments like that, have a way of being taken the wrong way. This is what creates bad feelings..

I resemble that remark

bb1,....we are having a discussion in the General Forum, under: Did everyone stop drinking coffee?

Frustration. Lately there's been alot of that going around.
( Must be some kind of nasty contagious typing virus when we log in. I'm sorry to say, even Lysol hasnt been able to zap the toxidity outta the lil' bugger'. )

If you read the coffee post you may see that you are not alone,...and that there are posters who are trying to fix the problem.

Hope this helps & keep posting!!! ( and in the spirit of wanting the brownie platter,...I'll even add a "please " to that request! )

Stay with us bb1!!

rz,
I am sure you do! <~~~~~~ means reply was meant to be funny.

Now you see BB1, rz and I can go head to head at times but we still have a sense of HUMOR.

Shortstopmom, I actually was aware of what was going on in that forum. I didn't feel I could contribute to that right now though and decided to keep watching. I know there is a lot of good advice available on this board. You just have to put up with a little **** to get to it and that's okay. I'll read other peoples problems and answers and take what is best from that and forget the rest. We should give points for truely insightful answers and take some away for others. Of course back to my original discussion "they would figure out a way to cook the points book" (just kidding)

quote:

Of course back to my original discussion "they would figure out a way to cook the points book" (just kidding)

Tee heeeeeee,.....good one!!!

Every one,

breath in.......breath out,breath in.......breath out,breath in.......breath out,breath in.......breath out,breath in.......breath out,breath in.......breath out,

I think THE BIGGEST THINGS I have learned from this site is to enjoy every minute you get to watch your son play!!!!

catcher09,

You are absolutely right. Enjoy every minute you get to watch your son play. It may not last as long as you expect.

Hi everybody, I haven't had a chance to read everything on this post.
I see your all getting along fine without me??
OK I'll give my 2 cent's.

HS Stats are not as important as you may want them to be.
There fun to follow, and you get an idea of who can hit BA, OBP, SLGP,are who can pitch ERA, K/BB ratio ECT..
But most of the other stuff isn't even looked at by colleges are pro scout's.
They just want to know if you can play.
I have four full score books of a 100 games each book, Everygame my son played in the last 4 years of HS and Summer Ball.
Not once had any College recruiter, are scout asked to see them. And I never once offered the books to them.
It just doesn't matter that much to them.

I kept the books to keep my mouth shut as much as humanly possible??
It kept my mind busy trying to write in the book.

bb1 your right in your assumption that sometimes the books get cooked a little.
But like I said it means nothing in the long term.
EH

I've been following this topic and while I can see both sides, if stats are going to be kept, why not have them as accurate as possible? My son's HS stats were kept by girls in the dugout (don't get me started) who usually had to ask if that was a hit or not.

That said I'm pretty much in the group that thinks they don't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

My son had some of the worst stats as a soph, but was their best pitcher. He threw against all the top teams and only won two games. Yes, as a jr and sr he was all state, but that is just one example of how stats can be deceiving and don't tell the whole story.

In our area varsity box scores are published in the regional newspaper and stats are used to determine conference all-star and regional all-star selections. Under the circumstances, accuracy is a nice bonus. I'm sure we can all agree that the best players should be the guys selected to those teams.

Can't speak for anyone else and have to go so quickly, I was referred to this post for an opinion. Here goes. As a head coach, the stats are what I say they are. Having said that, I have an adult teacher who volunteers to keep all stats. We have one agreement. I will never change a stat. My volunteer is approved by the School Board and so we call him Coach. We have had parents question his judgement. He is one of the top stats guys I know and can cite MLB stats off the top of his head for many years back. Every team has a person similar to our Coach Bay. However, Coach Bay has gained a reputation for being VERY ACCURATE. He takes great pride in that!

Further, we have a system in the St. Louis Posts Dispatch called "Sports stats." It is incumbent for everyone to call in their stats. We call in the stats for both us and our opponent if we are at home and they call in our stats if we are away. We won't change the stats called in by another team. We know teams that do and when that happens, I'm the first to speak out about it when I sit in these all area selection meetings.

Finally, chill on the stats. TR is correct when he says that no one cares about the HS stats from collegiate programs. Coaches gain a reputation for marking up the stats. Once gaine, that will never be lived down. I once saw a coach make up the game stats off of his head over his cell phone. One reporter remarked to me, "that's why he can't get any kids on the all area team." If your kid is a player, he'll show that when colleges come calling, during the summer or in showcases. BTW, when I speak about players and SIBUllets can verify this, I speak in terms of comparing them to other kids I've coached who achieved what ever level of success either in college or pros. Stats to me are only one measurment and so, a small piece of a very big puzzle. JMHO!

Since no one cares at the collegiate level, could you get them to change all their recruit forms that ask for high school stats.

Perhaps that section is there to see how much the parents want to exaggerate !!!

no-e2,
The college's want to have an idea if you can play, But they will not base much on your HS stats.
They want to see you play and or pitch in person.
At there camps are watching you in summer ball.
They also will have there on network of people they trust with there observation's on certain players.
Go to the college's camps of your players choice, That's a good start.
But not the end all of your recruiting process.
Sometimes it just comes down to Need of the team for the coach. ( He loses his top recruit to the draft ).

Stats are just a very very small part of the equition.

A player could be batting .600 in one league.
And another player batting .300 in one of the top league's in the country. Who's the better player?
It comes down to observation by whom ever is watching. Peroid
Just play the game, As hard and as good as you can.
You will be noticed if you can get yourself in front of the right people.
Take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself to get noticed.
And a piece of paper with numbers on it, Does not play the game. Only the player play's the game.
Good luck everybody, It's never easy as a parent we want everything to be perfect. Well it just isn't that way.
Rise above it, Don't blame anybody. Just play ball it will work out if your player has some talent, the drive, and the support of his parent's.
Let the game take you as far as you and your talent's will take you.
EH

I was being facetious. I know they want to see a kid play. They can't really trust parents or coaches for the correct stats. Now before someone gets their panties in a wad. Not all parents or coaches. There, a legal disclaimer.

quote:

Not all parents or coaches. There, a legal disclaimer.

Altough we would like to be?? LOL
Lets not get the Lawyer's on this board involved in this discussion?
We might have to take a DNA test, Are was that a Brain scan?
EH

Here is an example of stats which I used before

When my son came out of HS the "so called " # 1 player in the tri-county region was hitting in the mid .600's---but he was at a school of 600/700 players and we had played every year during the summer---so we knew his talent level-his stats just did not jive.

The #2 hitter and my son the #3 hitter played in the big school conference---player #1 did not even make it at the local community college while hitter # 2 went to Cornell and my son went to New Mexico State where both kids had fine careers and got degrees


I rest my case regarding stats

CoachB25. That is all I could ask for, someone who is a legitimate scorekeeper. Not a 12yr old girl, not a coaches relative or whoever. The fact that you do not change anything the scorekeeper does is also very important. That to me means more than anything, let someone make the call and stand by it. All though I am a parent I do have the reputation of being tough but fair as a scorekeeper. I would not want the job on a regular basis with my sons HS team since it could be conceived as a conflict of interest. Not as they may think but me not keeping score for them would benefit my son not the other way around because if there was any doubt he always got the short end of the stick with me.
However, in this situation they did change the way things were scored and that is what upset me the most. Have someone who doesn't miss a play and rbi a hit whatever it may be. Someone who is not petting a puppy or playing with the grandkids. Then there would be no problem because it is then a matter of opinion if something is questioned but DON'T CHANGE IT, at home. EVERYTHING is NOT a HIT.
I have no doubt that stats in your school really are a small part of the equation but not all schools work that way especially ones that favor kids who play other sports especially football.
As far as colleges, I'm sure for the very reason that they know the stats are "cooked" they don't rely on them very much but more on actually seeing and communicating among themselves.
My son will be fine as he is a good student and a good baseball player with a desire and work ethic to go on. He may be passed over for political reasons but he'll always be in the top nine so his time will come. Thanks.

TR, It just takes time for us parent's to figure out what's important and what is not important.
We learn everyday, Some will never learn.
We just don't have as much experience as other's who have been thru this before.
So I want to thank you for not getting to frustrated with us.
And continue to give advice even though it falls on deft ears at times.
EH

This looks like a scene from one of the Planet of the Apes films.

EH

Nice to know somebody can appreciate what comes from an Old Man who has been around the block more than once


Texan

Please explain the picture !!!!

Texan, Thats funny.
Have you gotten into gotwood's photo album? LOL

You do know that this stuff we write has been hashed out on this board many time's before.
And most likely will be brought up many more times on other post's.
It's why were here to learn and give are opinion.
I've learned so much from everybody here.
All the thing's i've done wrong and sometimes the thing's we've done right.
Share your story's right, wrong, are indifferant.
It helps other's to understand.
Yes we get chastised sometimes.
And we get are feeling's hurt.
But if we become better baseball Parent's because of it.
It's a Win Win.
EH

Why can't we accept the fact that we are an informational society, with multiple means of distribution, with multiple people displaying it, and multiple people having different agendas? Our only job is to figure out what information best suits us. It is not brain surgery, you either buy into what you hear, you dismiss it for what it isnt.

As far as I'm concerned Stats books are like Consumer Report or any governmental report, if you like what you see you buy into it, if not blow it off. Questioning stats outside the diamond are a daily occurance in our lives.

Since, I started this whole thing it is my choice to end it. We could go on and on about this and never reach agreement. Some say who cares, others say I do. That will no way change my enjoyment of rooting for my sons team and watching him perform. The lawn chair is out too bad I can't bring some refreshments to the games. Thanks to everyone who gave an honest and well thought out opinion that added to the discussion. To others I can't resist a parting shot. Like my mother used to say " If you don't have anything nice to say then don't say it".

bb1

Let it go---- you got opinions from all sides---accept them for what they are---OPINIONS

No No bb1, you let the cat out of the bag.
You can't alway's catch it again. LOL
Have we learned, that is the question?
I hope we have. I said WE??
EH

TRhit
Just as I would have expected.

BB

You want me to change for you ??? I gave my opinion--if you don't like it so be it--

I truly gets tiring---people ask for input--you give it and then they get offended---and we do not even have any idea as to who and what you are


You know what--your response is "JUST WHAT I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED"

It is the same old story --many just want to hear what they want to hear not what is the truth and fact--by the way you never answered the question---how does honesty and ethics enter into scorekeeping when you have a HS kid doing the job--they are doing the best they can do---they are not"cooking the books"

HAPPY STATS...of sorts

Some stats are happy ones,
Some not true blue.
It's the way you write the stats that counts,
Here's a happy one for you.

Happy stats to you....until you bat again.
Happy stats to you...keep swingin' until then.
Who cares about the errors when they're bogus?
Just swing a bat, they'll pull one over us.
Happy stats to you...'till we delete again.

Music and Lyrics by Dale Evans-Rogers...sorry for mangling them.

Actually TRIGGER wrote the lyrics and music

TRhit, Sounds like I hit a sore spot. Look at one of your other posts:

why are you pursuing this---honesty and ethics when you have kids keeping score as best they can---lets get real---what they put in the book DOES NOT change the score and isnt that ALL THAT COUNTS!!!!

A direct quote I may add. Not actually useful though. Once again for the third and last time: This board is here for people to ask questions from those who supposedly have experience. If you want to keep it your own little universe as it appears to be, so be it. I'd rather a response from someone who can give USEFUL OPINIONS. Terribly sorry if you are offended by the truth.