quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
It's a good argument and good discussion, but when the dust settles, in spring 2008, it'll be interesting to see who will head off to the championship games.
I don’t think any substantive changes will be seen for at least 4 years. It will take that long to flush out all of the players who made choices based on the old rules.
Regarding HS in this discussion. I think there should be more HS games during the week, then more players will learn how to cope with playing baseball and attending classes, good practice for what's ahead.
Prolly what would be best is to just get rid of all the extracurricular stuff, plus the electives! Then the kids could all get back to Readin’, Ritin’, and Rithmatic!
In my son’s 4 HS seasons, other than preseason games, Easter tournaments, and Suicide Saturday, he only played 2 weekend games. Lotsa practices, but few games.
Scorekeeper,
This topic was about changes in starting dates in college, let's keep it on tract. Has nothing to do fundraising in HS, etc FYI, we too here in FL have schools with 2500+, very common problem these days, everywhere.
Good point. I guess I got off track trying to do the same thing lafmom did. Point out that things are different all over the place.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
However, any of you ever been "south" for any of those late May/June games where it's over 100 degrees? That's what we here in the south have to put up with, it ain't easy, trust me.
Kleenex pleaseOne minute people are saying baseball is a summer game, next, others are saying it's to hot to play. I have a solution, lets just play in April and May.......shoot.......that's when it usually rains
It snowed last week in South Carolina, it's extemely cold up there right now with no indoor facilities to go into to for practice.
Every University, regardless of weather has a facility to go that will allow for limited practice. Welcome to the real world boys
Most of the schools in his conference reside in colder weather states, Maryland, UNC, Boston College, GATech, UVA, Duke, Wake, NC State, heck, it's very cold now in Tallahassee.
For the most part those are not cold weather States
It's a good argument and good discussion, but when the dust settles, in spring 2008, it'll be interesting to see who will head off to the championship games.
This is not a "quick fix" proposistion and the results will have to wait until things "shake out". If nothing else I find it entertaining that those who the change affects the most are coming out of the closet and admitting there was an advantage
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by linedrive10:
I find a guy in Michigan who was about to commit to the Wolverines and possibly be their number one guy...State pride aside, the Michigan prospect looks outside and sees 2 feet of snow on the ground in late February and says "the heck with this, I'm going to Tempe to be the fourth guy in their rotation, play outside all fall and winter and play against good Pac 10 competition".
What stands in the way of that is the number 11.7
I agree if u can play South most kids(IMO)will go South. Any kid that I talk to wants to play South due to weather...and girls in shorts
in the middle of winter (except or this past week)!!
I am sure someone covered this, But I'm going to repeat it.
What incentive do the Southern school's have now to schedule Northern schools in the early part of the season?
Also I like the idea of a 4 game weekend schedule.
It wouldn't bother me abit? More games to watch.
Come on there's 30+ player's on a team.
I'm sure you can find enough pitching on your roster?
EH
What incentive do the Southern school's have now to schedule Northern schools in the early part of the season?
Also I like the idea of a 4 game weekend schedule.
It wouldn't bother me abit? More games to watch.
Come on there's 30+ player's on a team.
I'm sure you can find enough pitching on your roster?
EH
quote:What incentive do the Southern school's have now to schedule Northern schools in the early part of the season?
Northern schools are forced to go down south in February and March. Southern schools like a soft schedule to open the season, and have a percieved advantage early on. I've seen some northern schools very ready in February though.
quote:Come on there's 30+ player's on a team.
I'm sure you can find enough pitching on your roster?
It is not as easy as it sounds.
quote:Novice Dad quote:
I agree if u can play South most kids(IMO)will go South.
I think that every Northern school has many players that can play in the South and few leave the North for that reason.
Any kid that I talk to wants to play South due to weather...and girls in shorts Wink in the middle of winter (except or this past week)!!
I want to live on a tropical island with a staff of islanders dropping grapes in my mouth and putting bait on my fishing hooks, but that is a dream and best case scenario. When reality sets in and unless daddy has deep pockets most players will go to where they have the "best fit". That may be South, but those teams are usually made up of players from their own State and unless you are "cream" you statistically end up relativily close to home.
Well that's were GOOD coaching come's in.
If you have the job of preparing your team for the season.
You better know how to coach in a tough situation?
You don't know what you have until you play them in a game.
EH
If you have the job of preparing your team for the season.
You better know how to coach in a tough situation?
You don't know what you have until you play them in a game.
EH
EH,
I can imagine what the next comment is going to be.
"All the good coaching is down South because thats where the best players are".
I can imagine what the next comment is going to be.
"All the good coaching is down South because thats where the best players are".
False, There's good coaching everywhere.
Come on it's baseball.
You play the hand your dealt and do the best you can.
Now if all the best coaches were in the south then starting later won't matter anyway??
But we all know that the best coaches are in the WEST?? lol
Boy that's going to stir the pot.
EH
Come on it's baseball.
You play the hand your dealt and do the best you can.
Now if all the best coaches were in the south then starting later won't matter anyway??
But we all know that the best coaches are in the WEST?? lol
Boy that's going to stir the pot.
EH
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
However, any of you ever been "south" for any of those late May/June games where it's over 100 degrees? That's what we here in the south have to put up with, it ain't easy, trust me.
Kleenex please One minute people are saying baseball is a summer game, next, others are saying it's to hot to play. I have a solution, lets just play in April and May.......shoot.......that's when it usually rains
I would add that it isn't a matter of "what we here in the south have to put up with"....with the 100 degree weather (and by the way...since the question was asked..yes, been there/done that..it isn't "easy"). This isn't a question of comparing "comfort levels". It is a matter of physically being UNABLE to play outdoors at a certain time of year. Many times, there is SNOW and ICE covering the field, and there is no CHOICE to be made...you CAN'T play. But maybe the northern schools should just add shovels, snow blowers and ice picks to the athletic budget...and that will create parity.
quote:Originally posted by theEH:
Come on there's 30+ player's on a team.
I'm sure you can find enough pitching on your roster?
Well that's were GOOD coaching come's in.
If you have the job of preparing your team for the season.
You better know how to coach in a tough situation?
You don't know what you have until you play them in a game.
EH
IMHO, one problem with your position is, team coaches don’t do a lot of developing, compared to the amount of just riding the horses they get, into the ground. Why do you think there’s such a war for signing players.
Personally, I feel much the same way you do, but realistically, I know it seldom happens. It starts in those early years where the kiddies are 1st learning to play the game. There’s 12 kids on the team and all are eligible to pitch, but for some reason, the load is carried by just a few.
I recently did the numbers for a 10U team. they had 82 IPs in 22 games, but 3 P’s threw 56% of the innings. Why is that? Because even at that level when we all know how little winning really means. and how important development can be, its vastly more about winning, than development.
That doesn’t really change a lot as time goes by either. More often than not, the HS team will not only ride the horses into the ground, but will actually ignore potential for the sake of winning. And in college, you can look at the pitching numbers and see much the same thing too.
It certainly doesn’t happen in every case, but it happens a lot. although there’s a lot of dogma telling us how easy it is to train pitchers rather than throwers, the reality is, that’s a pantload!
Not nearly as many people are as adept at training P’s as they’d have us believe. If it were true, finding 5 quality P’s for a college team wouldn’t be an issue! People would be getting their hands on 1 or 2 proven studs, then just creating 3 more.
I’m not knocking anyone either! I’m trying to say its darn difficult to develop good P’s, and not giving them opportunities at the lower levels, only makes it more difficult later on.
Aluminum bats and talented hitters mean that you can't just get pitchers off the street or from your position players. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. By the time they reach Div 1 college ball they better have done most of their development or a coach doesn't have much of a chance. It is a rare talent that a college coach will take on purely as a development project.
Where does 5 pitchers come from? Pepperdine as an example has 11 on their roster, but they need a closer or two and they need long relief and setup men in addition to their starters and spot starters. Adding a game a week might require a couple additional pitchers on the roster and the coaches are going to be competing with a lot of other teams to get those pitchers. That's fine for the pitchers but not a good thing for the position players who already tend to get shorted when it comes to scholarship $ relative to pitchers.
BTW, when the kids were 12 I used 2 pitchers 90% of the innings. I simply didn't draft any other pitchers once I had those two even if they were the best player available at that point in the draft. The kids who wanted to be pitchers got to work in practice and when we went extra innings or had a laugher. There aren't enough innings available to develop everyone and 90% of the regular season innings is just about right for developing two pitchers at 6 innings per pitcher per week.
Where does 5 pitchers come from? Pepperdine as an example has 11 on their roster, but they need a closer or two and they need long relief and setup men in addition to their starters and spot starters. Adding a game a week might require a couple additional pitchers on the roster and the coaches are going to be competing with a lot of other teams to get those pitchers. That's fine for the pitchers but not a good thing for the position players who already tend to get shorted when it comes to scholarship $ relative to pitchers.
BTW, when the kids were 12 I used 2 pitchers 90% of the innings. I simply didn't draft any other pitchers once I had those two even if they were the best player available at that point in the draft. The kids who wanted to be pitchers got to work in practice and when we went extra innings or had a laugher. There aren't enough innings available to develop everyone and 90% of the regular season innings is just about right for developing two pitchers at 6 innings per pitcher per week.
Every team will be in the same position?
If you have 11 pitcher's? Well you pitch them.
Maybe a few more run's will be scored, So What.
Score more then the other team and you Win?
Everybody make's this to complicated.
It's baseball people. Play the game?
EH
If you have 11 pitcher's? Well you pitch them.
Maybe a few more run's will be scored, So What.
Score more then the other team and you Win?
Everybody make's this to complicated.
It's baseball people. Play the game?
EH
CAdad,
That's the point I was trying to make...Where do they get those pitchers because everyone in the west will be competing with schools like Pepperdine to add that pitcher or two or three. Where are they going to get them...I think that there will be big incentives to persuade pitchers that may be leaving the state now to stay. The rest will be recruited via the "Weather Pitch". Go to a cold climate and bring in pichers that way.
As far as 11.7 scholarship issue mentioned earlier... you will see the adjustment on position players. Coaches will recruit less position players and spend more time developing the ones they have.... OR recruit in hope of keeping each position player they bring in 3-4 years so they can afford to bring in more pitchers.
That's the point I was trying to make...Where do they get those pitchers because everyone in the west will be competing with schools like Pepperdine to add that pitcher or two or three. Where are they going to get them...I think that there will be big incentives to persuade pitchers that may be leaving the state now to stay. The rest will be recruited via the "Weather Pitch". Go to a cold climate and bring in pichers that way.
As far as 11.7 scholarship issue mentioned earlier... you will see the adjustment on position players. Coaches will recruit less position players and spend more time developing the ones they have.... OR recruit in hope of keeping each position player they bring in 3-4 years so they can afford to bring in more pitchers.
EH,
"Maybe a few more runs will be scored, so what?"
Actually, in college they play to win and the coaches get fired if they lose. That's what. The best way to score more runs than the other team is to give up fewer runs and that takes better pitching.
"Maybe a few more runs will be scored, so what?"
Actually, in college they play to win and the coaches get fired if they lose. That's what. The best way to score more runs than the other team is to give up fewer runs and that takes better pitching.
Maybe the NCAA should have another rule to level the playing field??
You can only recruit 2 top pitcher's?
And All northern school's get first crack at the stud pitcher's in the south.
And southern school's have to start the season in the north and the northern schools have to start in the south?
The SE school's have to go to the west,
And the western school's have to start in the east??
And if one team dominate's the other, then the losing school has a right to take one of there pitcher's for the rest of the year??
And also there should be an exchange of coaches during the middle of the year.
You know make everything fair??
Give me a Break
EH
You can only recruit 2 top pitcher's?
And All northern school's get first crack at the stud pitcher's in the south.
And southern school's have to start the season in the north and the northern schools have to start in the south?
The SE school's have to go to the west,
And the western school's have to start in the east??
And if one team dominate's the other, then the losing school has a right to take one of there pitcher's for the rest of the year??
And also there should be an exchange of coaches during the middle of the year.
You know make everything fair??
Give me a Break
EH
quote:Maybe a few more run's will be scored, So What.
So what is not a question most baseball coaches will want their AD's to answer. Those coaches of many competitive baseball programs are there to win or risk losing their jobs. Many of the big time programs will do what it takes to bring in the staff needed to keep their competitive edge.
If both team's have sub par pitching as you say?
Then score more run's then the other team?
Simple as that.
Recruit better hitter's?
Oh what a concept, never thought of that??
EH
Then score more run's then the other team?
Simple as that.
Recruit better hitter's?
Oh what a concept, never thought of that??
EH
quote:Recruit better hitter's?
Oh what a concept, never thought of that??
I think the KC Royals have tried that concept and it hasn't worked out that well for them. Good programs will demand good pitching...and they will get it...when push comes to shove...the warm weather states will get the pitchers they need wherever they are north or south....
quote:IMHO, one problem with your position is, team coaches don’t do a lot of developing, compared to the amount of just riding the horses they get, into the ground
How can you even say that?
Do college team's have a pitching coach on staff??
Is he getting paid to not develop pitcher's?
No they don't have to teach them how to pitch.
They improve there mechanic's and there strength as they grow into there body's.
Otherwise why recruit them??
I'm sorry I just don't believe that All College Coaches ride there pitcher's into the ground as you do.
EH
quote:I think the KC Royals have tried that concept
Where talking College Baseball here not the Pro's?
EH
All of them don't. But some sure do. Just look at the PAP stats.
Very few?
I've seen the pitch count of some that were very high, But not the majority.
If you know that why send your player to that school?
Score more run's then the other team and you Win.
Simple as that.
Sometimes Baseball is not Fair, Get use to it?
EH
I've seen the pitch count of some that were very high, But not the majority.
If you know that why send your player to that school?
Score more run's then the other team and you Win.
Simple as that.
Sometimes Baseball is not Fair, Get use to it?
EH
In my mind the kids who are talented enough and want to play in the warm climate will still do so, just as they do now.
Not too many warm climate kids want to come north unles sit is for the Ivies
What may happen is that pitchers who might now not go Division I because they want to pitch regularly will now look at Division I because of the additional pitching opportunities
The good coaches will make it work, trust me on this. It will place a premium on solid recruiting and keep in mind that coaches will match their # 4 and 5 arms with the oppositions.
As for the academics realize that baseball players are out of class more than football and basketball players but if the school cares, and now have to with the new academic requirements, they will make it work--it just means less social time for the players
Not too many warm climate kids want to come north unles sit is for the Ivies
What may happen is that pitchers who might now not go Division I because they want to pitch regularly will now look at Division I because of the additional pitching opportunities
The good coaches will make it work, trust me on this. It will place a premium on solid recruiting and keep in mind that coaches will match their # 4 and 5 arms with the oppositions.
As for the academics realize that baseball players are out of class more than football and basketball players but if the school cares, and now have to with the new academic requirements, they will make it work--it just means less social time for the players
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:quote:What incentive do the Southern school's have now to schedule Northern schools in the early part of the season?
Northern schools are forced to go down south in February and March. Southern schools like a soft schedule to open the season, and have a percieved advantage early on. I've seen some northern schools very ready in February though.quote:Come on there's 30+ player's on a team.
I'm sure you can find enough pitching on your roster?
It is not as easy as it sounds.
I agree with Dad04's last sentence very much. When the schools all start adding one more game each week, there will be football scores showing up. With the regular schedule, Sunday games turn into slugfests right now, and I can imagine what it will look like with another mid week game added on.
This past Sunday in the South and West when all the pitchers are fresh and the season is just starting.......Fullerton 12-Stanford 10. ASU 23-S. Utah 3. Fla St. 19- Tenn. 7. UCLA 19-Winthrop 5. The hitters will probably like the new schedule.
Good, DEEP pitching staffs in College are hard to find, because pro ball gobbles up so many fine high school pitchers.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
BTW, when the kids were 12 I used 2 pitchers 90% of the innings. I simply didn't draft any other pitchers once I had those two even if they were the best player available at that point in the draft.
I’m not saying doing that is wrong, but IMHO that’s the level when as many players as possible should be handed the rock, just to see what might happen. Call me nuts, but at that age kids are changing so fast, a kid who sucks this month might be a stud next month, but if he doesn’t get the opportunity to at least try, who will ever know?
Actually, in college they play to win and the coaches get fired if they lose. That's what. The best way to score more runs than the other team is to give up fewer runs and that takes better pitching.
Are there any college coaches out there who could quantify what “winning” and “losing” is, in relation to getting fired? I keep hearing how college coaches get fired for not winning, but no one seems to know what winning is. Since every loses multiple games every year, there has to be some percentage that will do it.
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:quote:Originally posted by Dad04:[It is not as easy as it sounds.
I agree with Dad04's last sentence very much. When the schools all start adding one more game each week, there will be football scores showing up. With the regular schedule, Sunday games turn into slugfests right now, and I can imagine what it will look like with another mid week game added on.
Good, DEEP pitching staffs in College are hard to find, because pro ball gobbles up so many fine high school pitchers.
Mebbe there’s a hidden benefit in the change. Runaway scores and 4 hour games might just encourage the NCAA to go to wood! On the other hand, they just might do something really stupid and go to 18” mound heights.
I also think it may well be that a few kids who didn’t want to sign that contract, but get a couple years of seasoning in college, will go ahead and sign with the worry of the college coaches wearing out those arms increasing, if even only just a bit. If that happens, there will be even fewer to drawer kids than there are now.
BB Scout:
With your game score stats, which are accurate, you will notice a growing trend to wood bats for college teams, regardless of the $$$ paid to College Coaches. Safety should be the "rule".
However, NCAA will go for the band aid approach; a 10 run rule and helmets for pitchers.
The question is - "why does the NCAA not accept MLB donation of wood bats to college baseball".
Bob Williams
With your game score stats, which are accurate, you will notice a growing trend to wood bats for college teams, regardless of the $$$ paid to College Coaches. Safety should be the "rule".
However, NCAA will go for the band aid approach; a 10 run rule and helmets for pitchers.
The question is - "why does the NCAA not accept MLB donation of wood bats to college baseball".
Bob Williams
quote:Originally posted by Consultant:
The question is - "why does the NCAA not accept MLB donation of wood bats to college baseball". Bob Williams
Has MLB actually made that offer?
quote:Originally posted by Scorekeeper:quote:Originally posted by Consultant:
The question is - "why does the NCAA not accept MLB donation of wood bats to college baseball". Bob Williams
Has MLB actually made that offer?
The reason is Money...Nike and the rest of the equipment suppliers pay good money for schools to use their products. If colleges started using Wood it would send a message to youth baseball that the bat manfacturers would not want.
Bob,
Has that offer actually been made?
That would be a ++ for both sides
Has that offer actually been made?
That would be a ++ for both sides
that was the bit redundent
quote:Posted by bbscout: This past Sunday in the South and West when all the pitchers are fresh and the season is just starting.......Fullerton 12-Stanford 10. ASU 23-S. Utah 3. Fla St. 19- Tenn. 7. UCLA 19-Winthrop 5. The hitters will probably like the new schedule.
The hitters will feel like Jeter. The popcorn vendors will like it as the games stretch from 3 to 4+ hours. CWS games again will have scores like 27-23, forcing the NCAA to dumb down the bat once more.
For those that have responded to my post.
I was just trying ot make a point, maybe not clear.
My southern player decided to go "north", could have stayed down here in warmer climate, to be more comfortable, but his choice was based upon where he would like to ATTEND school. I suppose if he did not want to go to classes, required study halls, maintain the required GPA, long hours of practice, 5 games a week, studying on the road, then back home to study he would have considered pro ball.
rz,
Not all schools have facilities available for practice when there is snow on the ground or it's raining. Bad weather, you don't practice, you hit the gym for workout, that's it. There are no indoor facitilities available for inclement weather.
To you those are not cold weather states to many they are.
As far as mentioning 100 degrees, was pointing out there are extemes on both sides. Players learn to adjust to situations better than parents do. JMO.
I was just trying ot make a point, maybe not clear.
My southern player decided to go "north", could have stayed down here in warmer climate, to be more comfortable, but his choice was based upon where he would like to ATTEND school. I suppose if he did not want to go to classes, required study halls, maintain the required GPA, long hours of practice, 5 games a week, studying on the road, then back home to study he would have considered pro ball.
rz,
Not all schools have facilities available for practice when there is snow on the ground or it's raining. Bad weather, you don't practice, you hit the gym for workout, that's it. There are no indoor facitilities available for inclement weather.
To you those are not cold weather states to many they are.
As far as mentioning 100 degrees, was pointing out there are extemes on both sides. Players learn to adjust to situations better than parents do. JMO.
quote:Originally posted by theEH:
Very few?
I've seen the pitch count of some that were very high, But not the majority.
If you know that why send your player to that school?
I won't. But others "can't pass up" the chance to play for a program like Rice.
And the last time I looked, it wasn't "very few", but a significant portion.
Anyhow, back to the original thread...
I think this will open up new opportunities for JC pitching to transfer to DI schools in need of experienced pitching.
quote:Originally posted by Novice Dad:
The reason is Money...Nike and the rest of the equipment suppliers pay good money for schools to use their products. If colleges started using Wood it would send a message to youth baseball that the bat manfacturers would not want.
So you’re saying that the offer has been made from MLB to subsidize the colleges as far as bats go? I’d really like to see where that really has happened. MLB hasn’t exactly been know as the most altruistic organization in the world as far as helping those playing at levels below it.
Its just hard for me to picture an organization that charges little kids a fee for buying unis with a ML name or logo on it, that would spend literally millions to supply bats for college ball.
quote:Originally posted by baseballtoday:
I think this will open up new opportunities for JC pitching to transfer to DI schools in need of experienced pitching.
The JUCO players are there, just some coaches don't spend the time to go looking for them!
We have some JUCO transfers that will make, have made significant impact in son's program.