How Strong Are D1 Baseball Players?

I don't know specifics on MAX or super sets, but I can tell you it was an eye opener when my son attended a smaller invite camp at Mizzou as Sophomore.  The staff had a couple pitchers show him around and the entire group went on a tour as well. THE Pitchers WERE RIPPED!

The first thing we were told is the Dieticians set you up with a plan, then the Strength trainers assess and program for your needs. It was a real eye opener to see just how big and strong a college pitcher really is...........or how weak a HS player is......

From what i've seen personally-

Backsquat maxes avg = 300  Low was 175 and high was 440

my kid was 415

Goal before he leaves is 500

Great topic I think it would depend a lot on positions. Our goal at our high school is to have our guys college ready by the start of their Jr. baseball season.  Would be interested to know what everyones numbers are.

Everytime I've attended D1 games and sat up close it really struck me how big a lot of those players are. They are built like tanks!

Shoveit4Ks posted:

From what i've seen personally-

Backsquat maxes avg = 300  Low was 175 and high was 440

my kid was 415

Goal before he leaves is 500

Wow, those are good numbers for your son! As I recall, the source of the "Shove It" screen name.

Backpick25 posted:

I don't know specifics on MAX or super sets, but I can tell you it was an eye opener when my son attended a smaller invite camp at Mizzou as Sophomore.  The staff had a couple pitchers show him around and the entire group went on a tour as well. THE Pitchers WERE RIPPED!

The first thing we were told is the Dieticians set you up with a plan, then the Strength trainers assess and program for your needs. It was a real eye opener to see just how big and strong a college pitcher really is...........or how weak a HS player is......

Mizzou is a bit of an outlier in that the strength coach is one of the most renowned in the world (Dr. Bryan Mann) and the school has a history of really caring about strength for their athletes. Their fireman reliever trains at our place (Nolan Gromacki) who is a borderline contributor for the team, but an essential one, and he's one of the best bodyweight-to-strength ratio trainees we've ever had, including professional position players. The school gets it.

Still, D1 players are far stronger than HS kids are, if only because 22 year old men have finished up puberty and have more years of full testosterone in them than an 18 year old coming in. Of course the usual work ethic, culture, equipment, coaching, etc all comes into play, no question.

The few HS and gap year kids we have at Driveline get exposed to professional athletes going about their business in a way that they have never considered. It's my job to hire and train the best coaches, give them the best environment including equipment and facilities, and set the culture by bringing in the right elite athletes ahead of them. I think I've done a good job. So when HS and young college kids see all of that, it's almost entirely on them to put forth the effort in the weight room, at home (sleep and nutrition), and bring the right mentality. Unfortunately, this is somewhat rare, simply because a 19 year old can't grasp the magnitude of how difficult baseball can and will be years down the road and what types of men they will compete against.

This, like many things in life, is a lesson that they will have to learn the hard way. And they will.

This is easy.  2 1/2 levels stronger than the D3 kids.  

cabbagedad posted:

This is easy.  2 1/2 levels stronger than the D3 kids.  

Man, you're opening a bag of worms! Here we go, again...

baseballmom posted:

cabbagedad posted:

This is easy.  2 1/2 levels stronger than the D3 kids.  

Man, you're opening a bag of worms! Here we go, again...

Haha... guess I should clarify, totally kidding - reference to the debate going on in the "coaches over-recruiting" thread.

Oh, I caught it! 

Kyle Boddy posted:

Backpick25 posted:

I don't know specifics on MAX or super sets, but I can tell you it was an eye opener when my son attended a smaller invite camp at Mizzou as Sophomore.  The staff had a couple pitchers show him around and the entire group went on a tour as well. THE Pitchers WERE RIPPED!

The first thing we were told is the Dieticians set you up with a plan, then the Strength trainers assess and program for your needs. It was a real eye opener to see just how big and strong a college pitcher really is...........or how weak a HS player is......

Mizzou is a bit of an outlier in that the strength coach is one of the most renowned in the world (Dr. Bryan Mann) and the school has a history of really caring about strength for their athletes. Their fireman reliever trains at our place (Nolan Gromacki) who is a borderline contributor for the team, but an essential one, and he's one of the best bodyweight-to-strength ratio trainees we've ever had, including professional position players. The school gets it.

Still, D1 players are far stronger than HS kids are, if only because 22 year old men have finished up puberty and have more years of full testosterone in them than an 18 year old coming in. Of course the usual work ethic, culture, equipment, coaching, etc all comes into play, no question.

The few HS and gap year kids we have at Driveline get exposed to professional athletes going about their business in a way that they have never considered. It's my job to hire and train the best coaches, give them the best environment including equipment and facilities, and set the culture by bringing in the right elite athletes ahead of them. I think I've done a good job. So when HS and young college kids see all of that, it's almost entirely on them to put forth the effort in the weight room, at home (sleep and nutrition), and bring the right mentality. Unfortunately, this is somewhat rare, simply because a 19 year old can't grasp the magnitude of how difficult baseball can and will be years down the road and what types of men they will compete against.

This, like many things in life, is a lesson that they will have to learn the hard way. And they will.

Kyle, Nolan was one of the pitchers that showed us around! Great guy and a superior engineering student!

cabbagedad posted:

This is easy.  2 1/2 levels stronger than the D3 kids.  

Lol, that would be some ....... Dare I say, JUCOs............. Cough, cough,p, cough, e, cough, d's....

Kyle Boddy posted:

Backpick25 posted:

I don't know specifics on MAX or super sets, but I can tell you it was an eye opener when my son attended a smaller invite camp at Mizzou as Sophomore.  The staff had a couple pitchers show him around and the entire group went on a tour as well. THE Pitchers WERE RIPPED!

The first thing we were told is the Dieticians set you up with a plan, then the Strength trainers assess and program for your needs. It was a real eye opener to see just how big and strong a college pitcher really is...........or how weak a HS player is......

Mizzou is a bit of an outlier in that the strength coach is one of the most renowned in the world (Dr. Bryan Mann) and the school has a history of really caring about strength for their athletes. Their fireman reliever trains at our place (Nolan Gromacki) who is a borderline contributor for the team, but an essential one, and he's one of the best bodyweight-to-strength ratio trainees we've ever had, including professional position players. The school gets it.

Still, D1 players are far stronger than HS kids are, if only because 22 year old men have finished up puberty and have more years of full testosterone in them than an 18 year old coming in. Of course the usual work ethic, culture, equipment, coaching, etc all comes into play, no question.

The few HS and gap year kids we have at Driveline get exposed to professional athletes going about their business in a way that they have never considered. It's my job to hire and train the best coaches, give them the best environment including equipment and facilities, and set the culture by bringing in the right elite athletes ahead of them. I think I've done a good job. So when HS and young college kids see all of that, it's almost entirely on them to put forth the effort in the weight room, at home (sleep and nutrition), and bring the right mentality. Unfortunately, this is somewhat rare, simply because a 19 year old can't grasp the magnitude of how difficult baseball can and will be years down the road and what types of men they will compete against.

This, like many things in life, is a lesson that they will have to learn the hard way. And they will.

Kyle that was a great post!

2019Dad posted:

We all know that to meet D1 standards most kids will have to throw 90 (or somewhat close to it), have an exit velocity of 90 (or somewhat close to it), run a 7.0 sixty (or somewhat close to it), but I was wondering how strong D1 baseball players are?

For those with current or past college players, what are the normal thresholds, along the lines of the players can at least do this amount (leaving out the outliers, like a tiny SS who is lightning fast but not strong))?

• Back squat max? 350 lbs? 400 lbs?
• Deadlift?

Are there significant differences between pitchers and position players?

Thanks in advance.

Don’t they use a formula for back squat max?  Ex: 8 x 315 equates to around 400 max.  Probably going to blow out some backs & knees if loading it up.

We tested earlier in the fall

My numbers this year-

squat-495

deadlift- pretty easy 605

we had a few guys above 500 on the deadlifts. I do a ton of deadlifting and lifting. I'm about 5'9 and fluctuate between 210-220 lbs

Jesus, those are football numbers.  My best numbers were Bench: 205, Squat: 335, Deadlift: 365.  

We have some massive guys. Most of our team outlifts our football program... 

a division 1 football program has 300lb lineman that lift less than baseball players..

During all breaks and at the end of summer, son gets email with about 10 attachments on the workout program with max, reps @ % and specific exercises by position. And oh yeah...conditioning is a big part of the program and the "Beep Test" is no fun and a requirement to run. Son completed most reps upon return from this past summer.

D1catcher posted:

We have some massive guys. Most of our team outlifts our football program... 

a division 1 football program has 300lb lineman that lift less than baseball players..

Huh?

And the conditioning is brutal. My son was a 4 year football/baseball/ surf team guy who thought he was in great shape until day 1 of conditioning. And this is a D2 program. Kids quit college baseball during fall conditioning. 

Lots of vomiting happening...some dudes just give up.

my sons rarely worked out with the idea that "strength" is the goal.  For pitchers , maxing out and dead lifts and distance running for that matter are a waste of time. 

Again for pitchers the goal should be working out to gain "power" and fast twitch muscles

Now I will say that my 2013 that played D1 ball is far bigger and stronger than my 2018... 2013 topped out at 90 as a college sr.  2018 topped out at 94 as a high school jr...... so go figure....

I do like weight training  just not the max stuff.

Kyle, do you happen to know Kevin Fitzgerald?  

btw what is the ideal bodyweight for a player entering college or draft after hs?

I would think as a pro club I would like my players (assuming a normal height of 6 to 6"2) to weigh around 180 and be reasonably strong (say 300 DL or so). if he was 150 and really weak he might put on weight and get stronger but he could also remain a stick forever.

however if he is 210 and really jacked that limits his potential for growth and might also affect his agility for certain positions. but if he is 180 and reasonably strong that means he can still add strength and weight if needed or stay at that weight if it is needed for his agility.

I would imagine physical stature will be secondary to skillset. If we look at the best to play in modern era and from history, there is a huge variance.

bacdorslider posted:

my sons rarely worked out with the idea that "strength" is the goal.  For pitchers , maxing out and dead lifts and distance running for that matter are a waste of time. 

Again for pitchers the goal should be working out to gain "power" and fast twitch muscles

Now I will say that my 2013 that played D1 ball is far bigger and stronger than my 2018... 2013 topped out at 90 as a college sr.  2018 topped out at 94 as a high school jr...... so go figure....

I do like weight training  just not the max stuff.

Kyle, do you happen to know Kevin Fitzgerald?  

At my son's D-1, they deadlift all the time.  Never max, but they deadlift a lot.

If your kid lifts throughout high school, supervised by a qualified and knowledgeable trainer, he will be a step or five ahead of many other Baseball players entering college as freshman.  Even in this much more advanced world, a majority of athletes don't really do enough strength training until they reach college

Just make sure there is very close monitoring going on. 

My son's first PC went D1, he had the dietician and the trainer.  It turned out that their plan for him backfired.  When he gained weight he lost velo.  Thankfully they had a close eye on him, saw the trend, and were able to reverse it.  However, had he been with a less knowledgeable staff, say at a high school weight room where you get ONE plan and are just supposed to carry it out, things could have gone very badly.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Just make sure there is very close monitoring going on. 

My son's first PC went D1, he had the dietician and the trainer.  It turned out that their plan for him backfired.  When he gained weight he lost velo.  Thankfully they had a close eye on him, saw the trend, and were able to reverse it.  However, had he been with a less knowledgeable staff, say at a high school weight room where you get ONE plan and are just supposed to carry it out, things could have gone very badly.

Baseball guys working out with the Football Strength Coach that only knows football is a recipe for a disaster.  (to your point)...

And the strength that is gained - is it functional strength for baseball?  For baseball you want to be working more the back side of the body and lower half.  Seek out a trainer that knows what he's doing.  In this day of Cressey, Driveline etc.  tons of resources.

bacdorslider posted:

my sons rarely worked out with the idea that "strength" is the goal.  For pitchers , maxing out and dead lifts and distance running for that matter are a waste of time. 

Again for pitchers the goal should be working out to gain "power" and fast twitch muscles

Now I will say that my 2013 that played D1 ball is far bigger and stronger than my 2018... 2013 topped out at 90 as a college sr.  2018 topped out at 94 as a high school jr...... so go figure....

I do like weight training  just not the max stuff.

Kyle, do you happen to know Kevin Fitzgerald?  

I can't say I do, no. Sorry.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Just make sure there is very close monitoring going on. 

My son's first PC went D1, he had the dietician and the trainer.  It turned out that their plan for him backfired.  When he gained weight he lost velo.  Thankfully they had a close eye on him, saw the trend, and were able to reverse it.  However, had he been with a less knowledgeable staff, say at a high school weight room where you get ONE plan and are just supposed to carry it out, things could have gone very badly.

Let’s say you want to make sure there is very close monitoring (perhaps by dressing like a janitor with a big Luigi mustache?).  And you determine that the workout and monitoring is insufficient. What is the next step?

“Mom, is that you?”

I think that’s out of parental hands. What is in parents control is teaching son proper lifting technique for the basic lifts, most likely from a professional trainer. And to teach him to grunt, shake, shriek loudly and make bug eyes when at 85% of max lift. 

Go44dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Just make sure there is very close monitoring going on. 

My son's first PC went D1, he had the dietician and the trainer.  It turned out that their plan for him backfired.  When he gained weight he lost velo.  Thankfully they had a close eye on him, saw the trend, and were able to reverse it.  However, had he been with a less knowledgeable staff, say at a high school weight room where you get ONE plan and are just supposed to carry it out, things could have gone very badly.

Let’s say you want to make sure there is very close monitoring (perhaps by dressing like a janitor with a big Luigi mustache?).  And you determine that the workout and monitoring is insufficient. What is the next step?

“Mom, is that you?”

I think that’s out of parental hands. What is in parents control is teaching son proper lifting technique for the basic lifts, most likely from a professional trainer. And to teach him to grunt, shake, shriek loudly and make bug eyes when at 85% of max lift. 

The next step is hiring someone who has a clue....which is about as far from me on weight lifting as a 6u kid is from MLB (but don't tell his parents...SHHHHH!)

Gov posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Just make sure there is very close monitoring going on. 

My son's first PC went D1, he had the dietician and the trainer.  It turned out that their plan for him backfired.  When he gained weight he lost velo.  Thankfully they had a close eye on him, saw the trend, and were able to reverse it.  However, had he been with a less knowledgeable staff, say at a high school weight room where you get ONE plan and are just supposed to carry it out, things could have gone very badly.

Baseball guys working out with the Football Strength Coach that only knows football is a recipe for a disaster.  (to your point)...

And the strength that is gained - is it functional strength for baseball?  For baseball you want to be working more the back side of the body and lower half.  Seek out a trainer that knows what he's doing.  In this day of Cressey, Driveline etc.  tons of resources.

Aren't football coaches also do a lot of squats, deadlifts for the lower body? What is the problem with football lifting?

Dominik85 posted:

Gov posted:

 

Baseball guys working out with the Football Strength Coach that only knows football is a recipe for a disaster.  (to your point)...

And the strength that is gained - is it functional strength for baseball?  For baseball you want to be working more the back side of the body and lower half.  Seek out a trainer that knows what he's doing.  In this day of Cressey, Driveline etc.  tons of resources.

Aren't football coaches also do a lot of squats, deadlifts for the lower body? What is the problem with football lifting?

When my son started lifting at 13 / 14 years his trainer told baseball is plaed from the bottom up and the back forward...and he should lift the same way. since then his programs have always been 2 days of legs/core to 1 day of upper / from side. He used that theory till college...and they have pretty much the same approach.

Deads, Squats, weighted lunges etc 3 days...the upper body 2 days - but add in a lot of stretching and roller work.

Dominik85 posted:

Gov posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Just make sure there is very close monitoring going on. 

My son's first PC went D1, he had the dietician and the trainer.  It turned out that their plan for him backfired.  When he gained weight he lost velo.  Thankfully they had a close eye on him, saw the trend, and were able to reverse it.  However, had he been with a less knowledgeable staff, say at a high school weight room where you get ONE plan and are just supposed to carry it out, things could have gone very badly.

Baseball guys working out with the Football Strength Coach that only knows football is a recipe for a disaster.  (to your point)...

And the strength that is gained - is it functional strength for baseball?  For baseball you want to be working more the back side of the body and lower half.  Seek out a trainer that knows what he's doing.  In this day of Cressey, Driveline etc.  tons of resources.

Aren't football coaches also do a lot of squats, deadlifts for the lower body? What is the problem with football lifting?

Relative to lower half work I'd agree, concern is a lot of the upper body strength work which can over do certain areas which can restrict a baseball players throwing.  

We are oversimplifying this topic. Upper body strength work is not a bad thing for baseball players, including pitchers, unless it is part of poorly written program. A better way to evaluate the quality of upper body training for a baseball player is to look at the ratio of push v. pull exercises along with mobility and stability work which includes soft tissue (foam rolling, manual therapy).  A well written program will be comprehensive in nature and include mobility, stability, strength, power, etc. A great program, which should be any program that you are spending $$$ on, will be individualized and will include regular assessments to monitor progress. I would highly recommend that some of those posting suggestions/recommendations take some time and read Cressey's baseball content to gain a better understanding on all things related to performance training for baseball players.

Also important to note that any good training program can be screwed up if not monitored. Had an opportunity this past weekend to hear D1 pitching and strength coach talk about one of program's top pitcher's who returned after summer and experienced performance issues. Come to find out, he was using the program provided but wanted to improve upon his beach muscles and was hitting triceps/biceps hard. They obviously eliminated that part of his program and worked on improving his mobility and after a relatively short period of time, he was back on track.

Last point I would like to make is that it is possible to make significant strength gains, maintain mobility/flexibility, and not gain massive amounts of muscle mass. The biggest factors are going to be volume and intensity. Minimize the number of exercises performed weekly along with fewer sets and lower reps but maintain intensity, and most players will not experience performance issues related to muscle mass. Obviously this also requires regular mobility/flexibility work to maintain range of motion.

 2018's nutrition and conditioning instructor  was previously  the Florida State baseball teams strength and conditioning coach, then he went to Notre Dame and Vandy.  If you want I will get 2018's workout and post it.

Bacdor — that’d be great.

2018 works with a Cressey trained guy as well.

COACHLD, I haven't seen anybody say upper body strength is a bad thing for a baseball player.  It's a key part of overall strength and conditioning for a ball player.  A few people have suggested using caution with the trainer your kid is signed up with.  Is the trainer dialed into baseball functional strength and workout protocols.  Some upper body strength moves (military press ?) aren't necessarily appropriate for an overhead athlete.  Cressey has really increased awareness levels for athletes, the athlete parents, as well as trainers. As long as we're all educating ourselves and passing on good information.

My boys have attended a well funded HS program, but the HS strength and conditioning coach is a know it all and his workout programs are tailored to football guys, he wasn't even receptive to an adjustment to the upper body strength program which might be applicable to baseball guys.  This guy totally screwed up one of our star baseball players a few years ago, went too heavy on the upper back and chest, lacked symmetry with his muscular development, reduced the players throwing movement, the player looked liked a short arm shot put guy.  Helped the kid win state in wrestling so not the end for him, but this scenario really opened up the eyes of all involved in baseball.  All of sudden everybody knew who Cressey was...  

if all you have is a football style workout, pass on it and go to public gym with your own workout.   Not bashing football coaches. but lets face it, they are teachers first then football coaches, most of the time they are not trained to work with baseball players but usually have to because of school budgets.  

Get with driveline , cressey ...you can make your own and frankly you should make your own.