What a great topic. I can valid points to all the posts. I think it all depends on each persons situation. From our eyes, the biggest issue we see are from the 14U/8th graders moving up. There are so many 14U teams that guys play all the time. Players never have to work to keep their positions. I see the benefit to getting all the reps but it does lead to some issues. They are never taught to compete for a job. When they get to HS they think they are the guy and soon realize they might not be.
When we have our program meeting we tell all the 15U parents that they struggle making the adjustment to the program due to son not being the "guy". The players don't have to much issue but oooh the parents do. We tell them if guys that are D1 commits, Aflac guys and future 1st rounders can sit on the the bench your freshman son should no problem working for his time. We will lose one or two freshman but after that very rarely do we lose a player. When we do lose a guy he usually bounces around to various teams and never settles in with a team.
I do think the article missed a bit. You really can't compare HS and travel. I also find it funny that the article is coming from a site the runs and promotes travel ball tournaments.
I'm not real sure how to really say this and I hope it comes out to where you understand my point. In case it doesn't let me preface this by saying I'm not criticizing travel baseball.
It doesn't matter what sport it is all athletes want to play. Why bust your butt in practice to just sit on the bench? Makes no sense because the goal is to play the game. So it makes sense there is a selfish aspect to all sports. But there is also that team element to most sports. A player has to find that balance between making sure he's looking out for himself and advancing towards his goal of playing the next level. But you also have to know when / how to put all that aside to fit into the team dynamics.
Summer baseball (and you can include fall as well) and spring (high school) ball serve two VASTLY different aspects in terms of development for a player. Summer baseball is the selfish time for the player to make sure they are taking care of their development. Find the team they can play on and be in the line up the majority of the time. High school ball is the time you work on developing your ability to fit in with a team.
The bench is a tricky place - you can learn quite a bit from there but the most important thing you have to learn is that you don't want to be there.
Travel baseball isn't hurting player work ethic or attitude - selfish people is what hurts work ethic and attitude. The majority of problems that arise with sitting on the bench happens in high school ball. Dad, mom and probably Jr are unhappy because Jr is on the bench for his HS team but they don't understand why. Maybe Jr plays on a summer team that's inferior to the HS one or maybe the HS has a player who's just better than him at his position - the reasons are infinite but the fact is Jr is on the bench. Well Jr now has a choice to make - gripe / complain or does he become a better teammate by supporting his teammates?
I know this - the griping and complaining kid will waste this opportunity to make himself a better OVERALL player by not fitting in. That's not summer ball's fault - that's his and his parent's fault.
Play spring HS ball to make you a better player due to drills from practice, play some games, play out of "your" position because that's what the team needs, learn to support others on your team, celebrate success with your buddies and let this be a great time to learn some humility.
Play summer travel ball to make you a better player by playing as much as you can, play at the position you feel is what's best for you, get exposure to the right people and make sure you are growing on the path that you want to take.
You combine those two and you have a great chance to improve as a complete baseball player. Not some nice guy who sits on the bench because he can't quite crack the line up or that jerk who only sees success as going 4 - 4 even if the team loses. It's ok to feel good for personal success in the 4 - 4 but it should still hurt if the team loses. Those who can't merge the two opportunities are the ones hurting work ethic and attitude.
Hope all this makes sense.
It doesn't matter what sport it is all athletes want to play. Why bust your butt in practice to just sit on the bench? Makes no sense because the goal is to play the game. So it makes sense there is a selfish aspect to all sports. But there is also that team element to most sports. A player has to find that balance between making sure he's looking out for himself and advancing towards his goal of playing the next level. But you also have to know when / how to put all that aside to fit into the team dynamics.
Summer baseball (and you can include fall as well) and spring (high school) ball serve two VASTLY different aspects in terms of development for a player. Summer baseball is the selfish time for the player to make sure they are taking care of their development. Find the team they can play on and be in the line up the majority of the time. High school ball is the time you work on developing your ability to fit in with a team.
The bench is a tricky place - you can learn quite a bit from there but the most important thing you have to learn is that you don't want to be there.
Travel baseball isn't hurting player work ethic or attitude - selfish people is what hurts work ethic and attitude. The majority of problems that arise with sitting on the bench happens in high school ball. Dad, mom and probably Jr are unhappy because Jr is on the bench for his HS team but they don't understand why. Maybe Jr plays on a summer team that's inferior to the HS one or maybe the HS has a player who's just better than him at his position - the reasons are infinite but the fact is Jr is on the bench. Well Jr now has a choice to make - gripe / complain or does he become a better teammate by supporting his teammates?
I know this - the griping and complaining kid will waste this opportunity to make himself a better OVERALL player by not fitting in. That's not summer ball's fault - that's his and his parent's fault.
Play spring HS ball to make you a better player due to drills from practice, play some games, play out of "your" position because that's what the team needs, learn to support others on your team, celebrate success with your buddies and let this be a great time to learn some humility.
Play summer travel ball to make you a better player by playing as much as you can, play at the position you feel is what's best for you, get exposure to the right people and make sure you are growing on the path that you want to take.
You combine those two and you have a great chance to improve as a complete baseball player. Not some nice guy who sits on the bench because he can't quite crack the line up or that jerk who only sees success as going 4 - 4 even if the team loses. It's ok to feel good for personal success in the 4 - 4 but it should still hurt if the team loses. Those who can't merge the two opportunities are the ones hurting work ethic and attitude.
Hope all this makes sense.
Great Post coach2709.
.
While I am going to overstate this, I also think it is important to bring it up...
I think we are missing the bigger point here…
Yes, it is about player development in baseball...but no, it's not. It's bigger than that. The messages that players learn in baseball from the very beginning...are the lessons that they employ later in relationships and in work, and in life. Yes, both in baseball and in life, there are superstars, those who are at the top of the game from day one…but the reality is that the vast majority of us have to learn to start as support personnel, pay dues, stick it out and work our way up with guts and discipline and faith…and beat our way through an established pecking order.
In the journey of the two of mine..and in 30 years of working with ahletes and watching the changes...I now believe that we have done our kids a huge disservice...we have oversold them on empty self esteem, instant gratification, numerical and press results...and undersold character, delayed gratification, moral code and quiet internal strength and resilience...and I believe that those lessons are taught very early.
And OK, I agree that there is a great deal more wife and career flipping than ever before and I agree that there is a time and a place to jump, and I agree that there is value to learning on the field as a starter...but when we go overbaord are we teaching our sons and daughters to jump at the slightest sign of adversity? Not to ever settle for being a team player? Not to ever be patient? Not to delay gratification? If that is the case then I suggest that we not only undermine their confidence in their ability to overcome individually but we weaken the work ethic and values, the team play that built the success that we and our society are based upon.
.
OK, back to baseball…fine, keep your son ever moving seeking a perfect situation one with guaranteed playing time…and bet that will always be the case…teach him that it is an effective way to deal with baseball…but mark my words, at some point be it in HS, be it as a college freshman, be it in the minors…there is not going to be a “good” second option, and they are going to overcome someone in front of them, beat a difficult situation, fix something, develop a new skill…not simply go sideways. Are we going to say, “This is not fair, you’re getting jobbed!”…(like the endless threads here)...or “Sorry kid, but you’ve been here before and beat it. You have the skills to do so again, have at it.” And when he does exactly that, you’ll know that the game he loved has taught him a lesson infinitely more important than hitting, or fielding, or starting, or star-ing, or a pro contract…
…and you as a parent will know that he is going to do just fine, beyond baseball, in the bigger game…life.
44
.
While I am going to overstate this, I also think it is important to bring it up...
I think we are missing the bigger point here…
Yes, it is about player development in baseball...but no, it's not. It's bigger than that. The messages that players learn in baseball from the very beginning...are the lessons that they employ later in relationships and in work, and in life. Yes, both in baseball and in life, there are superstars, those who are at the top of the game from day one…but the reality is that the vast majority of us have to learn to start as support personnel, pay dues, stick it out and work our way up with guts and discipline and faith…and beat our way through an established pecking order.
In the journey of the two of mine..and in 30 years of working with ahletes and watching the changes...I now believe that we have done our kids a huge disservice...we have oversold them on empty self esteem, instant gratification, numerical and press results...and undersold character, delayed gratification, moral code and quiet internal strength and resilience...and I believe that those lessons are taught very early.
And OK, I agree that there is a great deal more wife and career flipping than ever before and I agree that there is a time and a place to jump, and I agree that there is value to learning on the field as a starter...but when we go overbaord are we teaching our sons and daughters to jump at the slightest sign of adversity? Not to ever settle for being a team player? Not to ever be patient? Not to delay gratification? If that is the case then I suggest that we not only undermine their confidence in their ability to overcome individually but we weaken the work ethic and values, the team play that built the success that we and our society are based upon.
.
OK, back to baseball…fine, keep your son ever moving seeking a perfect situation one with guaranteed playing time…and bet that will always be the case…teach him that it is an effective way to deal with baseball…but mark my words, at some point be it in HS, be it as a college freshman, be it in the minors…there is not going to be a “good” second option, and they are going to overcome someone in front of them, beat a difficult situation, fix something, develop a new skill…not simply go sideways. Are we going to say, “This is not fair, you’re getting jobbed!”…(like the endless threads here)...or “Sorry kid, but you’ve been here before and beat it. You have the skills to do so again, have at it.” And when he does exactly that, you’ll know that the game he loved has taught him a lesson infinitely more important than hitting, or fielding, or starting, or star-ing, or a pro contract…
…and you as a parent will know that he is going to do just fine, beyond baseball, in the bigger game…life.
44.
O44, I have such a great amount of respect for you. And, the knowledge behind that post is why.
It amazes me how articulate and well thought out some of the posts on this site are...just very good stuff. Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
One aspect of this that has not been addressed (I don't think) is playing position.
Ok everyone address this.
As a sophmore, the bat was taken out of son's hands, and he was a darn good hitter and still is. He was designated pitcher only for 2 years, HS and travel ball. He sat the bench (when he could have been getting better at hitting right). He was REALLY UNHAPPY. Shoukld we have gone to another team where he coul dhave hit and pitch?
What would you all have done?
I believe that up until kids get into college they need to work on all aspects of their game including perfecting their offensive game. I would have taken my son and placed him on a different team based entirely off the coach apparently not understanding "where" the talent comes from. My son practiced with a team last fall and we then traveled out of state to a tournament where over the course of 3 days my son got in 4 innings of work. I complained to the coach after the tournament and he said that son got a good experience though. I said "no he didn't get any kind of good experience. He was offered to play on three other teams at different tournaments that weekend and they would of each loved to have had him knowing who he was and playing with him on other occasions. At this age and level it is all about "good experiences" coupled with "achieving ones goals". Being on a team that doesn't respect ones ability is a dis-service to that player. Kids these days have to really compete for the limited spots at the HS level and even moreso at the college level. My son had a personal goal in mind going into that tornament and never really had a chance to work on it. For son, it was a dissapointing end to a long season leaving on a somewhat sour note. The only bright side to all of that was that he was able to think about it all the long winter and helped him to understand that sometimes things just don't work out as planned.
If they can't get the play time that they need to try to achieve their goals and also have a good experience then they by all means should adjust and find the right team that will accomidate them. It's a proven fact that any good hitter will suffer if he isn't getting as many at-bats as other players. That also applies to any defensive position as well. Up until the college level players need to work hard to place themselves into the right situation that will better their odds- plain and simple. I am not saying that they shouldn't be "team players" I am just saying that playing for any team that doesn't achieve ones own personal goals is a waste of valuable time to that individual player and that player and parents alike need to adjust and move him onto a team that helps them personally. For some, it isn't about playing post HS and that is fine. But, for the better players, they really need to look at the game as a persoanl program that will lift them to higher plateaus after HS.
observer 44 - another awesome post.
Great stuff OB44, I often wonder if many of the folks today really read your posts and understand what you are trying to get across. 
That's why GBM would have taken his son to a different team and we didn't. That's why he complained to the coach because he thought his son should have gotten in more time than he did and we never would have. Parents are just different these days (not necessarily the players) they want immediate gratification, if their players are not used more than they feel they should, their kid got screwed. This bypasses important lessons for your players to learn.
What is going to happen to these players when they get past the HS game (refer to OB44's post).
We were made to understand that being a baseball jack of all trades wasn't right for most players. Who knows, perhaps if he had spent as much time on hitting as he did at pitching he wouldn't have gotten almost a full scholarship or drafted.
Instead, son stayed with the team, what he did was take batting practice for two years every opportunity he could (and cage), as a senior he was back at the plate and led team in BA and HR (and ERA as the starting pitcher). He played first when he wasn't pitching. He was awarded utility player of the year in our county in HS.
It would have been so much easier, I suppose to some, to go play on another team and get in that hitting time. I think that this was a good lesson for him, exactly I think what the author was trying to get across.
JMO.
That's why GBM would have taken his son to a different team and we didn't. That's why he complained to the coach because he thought his son should have gotten in more time than he did and we never would have. Parents are just different these days (not necessarily the players) they want immediate gratification, if their players are not used more than they feel they should, their kid got screwed. This bypasses important lessons for your players to learn.
What is going to happen to these players when they get past the HS game (refer to OB44's post).
We were made to understand that being a baseball jack of all trades wasn't right for most players. Who knows, perhaps if he had spent as much time on hitting as he did at pitching he wouldn't have gotten almost a full scholarship or drafted.
Instead, son stayed with the team, what he did was take batting practice for two years every opportunity he could (and cage), as a senior he was back at the plate and led team in BA and HR (and ERA as the starting pitcher). He played first when he wasn't pitching. He was awarded utility player of the year in our county in HS.
It would have been so much easier, I suppose to some, to go play on another team and get in that hitting time. I think that this was a good lesson for him, exactly I think what the author was trying to get across.
JMO.
Sorry observer 44 I still disagree with that attitude. When players play high school ball thats when whomever wherever sits. Thats when a player is taught team spirit and sit and dont argue or say a word. And most players do that.
Summer ball, just cause a kid is looking to play a bunch doesnt mean he is seeking to be team stud and walk around like hes gods gift to baseball.
Travel ball doesnt have to be about jet setting the nation in hopes of landing the big contract or appearing at every showcase event there is. There is this thing called "fun". You know, no pressure, just play baseball throughout the summer months the american dream. Not having a coach constantly chirping about "character developement".
There is this thing on a baseball team called a rotation where everyone, regardless of skill level, gets playing time.
Lets not blame parents either, I would have to say one of the MAJOR problems in travel is coaches and tournament directors creating this "whos the best team in the land" world series that go on every weekend. How many times do you here of a player, parent or coach claiming "we were #3 in the nation last year" or "8 of our players attending D1 college showcases last year, thats how great our travel club is, we produce champions" IF there was to be negative press towards summer travel ball, lets hit on that.
God forbid some average skilled level kid looking to play summer travel ball and get as much play time as possible for the simple fact of, having fun.
Summer ball, just cause a kid is looking to play a bunch doesnt mean he is seeking to be team stud and walk around like hes gods gift to baseball.
Travel ball doesnt have to be about jet setting the nation in hopes of landing the big contract or appearing at every showcase event there is. There is this thing called "fun". You know, no pressure, just play baseball throughout the summer months the american dream. Not having a coach constantly chirping about "character developement".
There is this thing on a baseball team called a rotation where everyone, regardless of skill level, gets playing time.
Lets not blame parents either, I would have to say one of the MAJOR problems in travel is coaches and tournament directors creating this "whos the best team in the land" world series that go on every weekend. How many times do you here of a player, parent or coach claiming "we were #3 in the nation last year" or "8 of our players attending D1 college showcases last year, thats how great our travel club is, we produce champions" IF there was to be negative press towards summer travel ball, lets hit on that.
God forbid some average skilled level kid looking to play summer travel ball and get as much play time as possible for the simple fact of, having fun.
cpfsam, what you are describing seems like rec ball to me. If you want this:
And you understand that your son is this:
Then don't sign up for a team that advertises this:
Easy.
quote:There is this thing called "fun". You know, no pressure, just play baseball throughout the summer months the american dream. Not having a coach constantly chirping about "character developement".
There is this thing on a baseball team called a rotation where everyone, regardless of skill level, gets playing time.
And you understand that your son is this:
quote:average skilled level kid looking to play summer travel ball and get as much play time as possible for the simple fact of, having fun.
Then don't sign up for a team that advertises this:
quote:coaches and tournament directors creating this "whos the best team in the land" world series that go on every weekend. How many times do you here of a player, parent or coach claiming "we were #3 in the nation last year" or "8 of our players attending D1 college showcases last year, thats how great our travel club is, we produce champions"
Easy.
quote:Originally posted by cpfsam:
God forbid some average skilled level kid looking to play summer travel ball and get as much play time as possible for the simple fact of, having fun.
No harm in that. Look at any golf course on the weekend. Not many Jack Nicklaussessesss out there. Doesn't mean no one is enjoying it.
cpfsam,
I do agree with some of which you said, especially the part about having fun. Once the fun goes out of it, then it's time to pack it up folks.
Most players are good teammates, can accept rotating, and don't argue. Some parents do.
And I don't think that one has to give up playing with a better team because they have no plans to play after HS.
I found that often parents resent that, one actually stating once imagine he's taking up space on a travel roster and has no plans to play after HS. That player didn't go onto play college ball, but now a successful businessman at age 26. The game can teach you a lot more than actually playing it. JMO.
That's balony.
I do agree with some of which you said, especially the part about having fun. Once the fun goes out of it, then it's time to pack it up folks.
Most players are good teammates, can accept rotating, and don't argue. Some parents do.
And I don't think that one has to give up playing with a better team because they have no plans to play after HS.
I found that often parents resent that, one actually stating once imagine he's taking up space on a travel roster and has no plans to play after HS. That player didn't go onto play college ball, but now a successful businessman at age 26. The game can teach you a lot more than actually playing it. JMO.
That's balony.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Great stuff OB44, I often wonder if many of the folks today really read your posts and understand what you are trying to get across.
That's why GBM would have taken his son to a different team and we didn't. That's why he complained to the coach because he thought his son should have gotten in more time than he did and we never would have. Parents are just different these days (not necessarily the players) they want immediate gratification, if their players are not used more than they feel they should, their kid got screwed. This bypasses important lessons for your players to learn.
What is going to happen to these players when they get past the HS game (refer to OB44's post).
We were made to understand that being a baseball jack of all trades wasn't right for most players. Who knows, perhaps if he had spent as much time on hitting as he did at pitching he wouldn't have gotten almost a full scholarship or drafted.
Instead, son stayed with the team, what he did was take batting practice for two years every opportunity he could (and cage), as a senior he was back at the plate and led team in BA and HR (and ERA as the starting pitcher). He played first when he wasn't pitching. He was awarded utility player of the year in our county in HS.
It would have been so much easier, I suppose to some, to go play on another team and get in that hitting time. I think that this was a good lesson for him, exactly I think what the author was trying to get across.
JMO.
Sometimes I even wonder why you ask baited questions and then rake everyone who replys over the coals. Before you go jumping to conclusions and state how much more reserved and better you are than me perhaps you never tend to read my posts and inquire after them. On that particular team in the fall that we played the tournament on we were led to believe that son would play certain positions and get so many at-bats against quality level teams. This particular tournament was not a showcase event or anything like that. We traveled out of town several times per week for almost a month to practice with the team leading up to the tournament. The coaches seemed genuine and all. We then used the last of our savings to travel accross parts of three states to play in the tournament, the same distance we would have traveled had we gone to the sophmore classic instead in Arizona that son got invited to play with.
So, we get there and find out the coach has invited other players he has promised to get playing time from another state. So, those kids along with his son end up playing pretty much the entire weekend while all our hard working kids from our state get to sit on the bench the whole weekend and there was not anyone on that team better than our kids. The only reason I decided to say something was because he was still trying to tell our boys after the tournament that it was a good experience for them. You know what, Bull$*&@! You don't lead kids to believe that they are a part of the team and drag them and their parents two states away and let them sit on the bench while kids from another state get the spots in the field that your kid was promised. There were several parents and palyers who were not very happy. One kid who had previously graduated HS and was now married was invited to play on the team. He spent money he didn't have, left a young family at home, and went to that tournament and ended up playing all of 2 innings in a blowout game in the outfiel all weekend. I am a pretty well reserved individual and only spoke up because I felt someone needed to stand up to that coach and speak things very plainly to him.
So, perhaps you should inquire a little more about something before you go spouting off about "other parents" and the problems with them.
Travel ball is pretty watered down these days. I would think there is something for everyones skill level. Most travel leagues offer more games than rec but not every team is trying to win the national title or a showcase tourney. I dont believe travel ball is as competitive as once was so the article written in reference to this thread doesnt hold ground imo.
And I'm talking the article. Not a high school coach disciplinarian.
Travel ball sometimes gets an unfair bogus rap along with the parents. Ive coached travel ball for years and been a parent. My 2 sons think they had a great upbringing in the travel baseball world with parents and siblings along for the ride. Travel baseball has taught my kids skills they wouldnt get elsewhere. Especially in high school ball.
There is many reasons to change teams, playing time, coaching, location, competition level. I think its good for players to experience different envirionments in baseball, and travel baseball allows that freedom. Yes, there are bad apples, like in anything else, players, parents, coaches, leagues. But its not a blanket issue. The article is not correct.
And I'm talking the article. Not a high school coach disciplinarian.
Travel ball sometimes gets an unfair bogus rap along with the parents. Ive coached travel ball for years and been a parent. My 2 sons think they had a great upbringing in the travel baseball world with parents and siblings along for the ride. Travel baseball has taught my kids skills they wouldnt get elsewhere. Especially in high school ball.
There is many reasons to change teams, playing time, coaching, location, competition level. I think its good for players to experience different envirionments in baseball, and travel baseball allows that freedom. Yes, there are bad apples, like in anything else, players, parents, coaches, leagues. But its not a blanket issue. The article is not correct.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
So, we get there and find out the coach has invited other players he has promised to get playing time from another state. So, those kids along with his son end up playing pretty much the entire weekend while all our hard working kids from our state get to sit on the bench the whole weekend and there was not anyone on that team better than our kids. The only reason I decided to say something was because he was still trying to tell our boys after the tournament that it was a good experience for them. You know what, Bull$*&@! You don't lead kids to believe that they are a part of the team and drag them and their parents two states away and let them sit on the bench while kids from another state get the spots in the field that your kid was promised. There were several parents and palyers who were not very happy. One kid who had previously graduated HS and was now married was invited to play on the team. He spent money he didn't have, left a young family at home, and went to that tournament and ended up playing all of 2 innings in a blowout game in the outfiel all weekend. I am a pretty well reserved individual and only spoke up because I felt someone needed to stand up to that coach and speak things very plainly to him.
So, perhaps you should inquire a little more about something before you go spouting off about "other parents" and the problems with them.
Yup been there and done it, learned from it and that was the end of it, and my reply would have been to anyone, you just seemed to elaborate a bit more then perhaps needed, I remembered you telling that once before, was it relevant to this discussion? What you should do is chalk it up as a lesson learned, don't blame the coach because you spent $$ to travel when you couldn't afford it.
Who drains their bank account to play in a tournament that means nothing in the big scheme of things anyway?
What type of travel team was that anyway? How does a HS grad play on a youth travel team?
Your answer actually is what I am talking about, blame others (with some reason) when the player doesn't get in his playing time. The easiest thing to do is walk away.
In this case, I doubt whether we or most others would have been in that situation to begin with.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
So, we get there and find out the coach has invited other players he has promised to get playing time from another state. So, those kids along with his son end up playing pretty much the entire weekend while all our hard working kids from our state get to sit on the bench the whole weekend and there was not anyone on that team better than our kids. The only reason I decided to say something was because he was still trying to tell our boys after the tournament that it was a good experience for them. You know what, Bull$*&@! You don't lead kids to believe that they are a part of the team and drag them and their parents two states away and let them sit on the bench while kids from another state get the spots in the field that your kid was promised. There were several parents and palyers who were not very happy. One kid who had previously graduated HS and was now married was invited to play on the team. He spent money he didn't have, left a young family at home, and went to that tournament and ended up playing all of 2 innings in a blowout game in the outfiel all weekend. I am a pretty well reserved individual and only spoke up because I felt someone needed to stand up to that coach and speak things very plainly to him.
So, perhaps you should inquire a little more about something before you go spouting off about "other parents" and the problems with them.
Yup been there and done it, learned from it and that was the end of it, and my reply would have been to anyone, you just seemed to elaborate a bit more then perhaps needed, I remembered you telling that once before, was it relevant to this discussion? What you should do is chalk it up as a lesson learned, don't blame the coach because you spent $$ to travel when you couldn't afford it.
Who drains their bank account to play in a tournament that means nothing in the big scheme of things anyway?
What type of travel team was that anyway? How does a HS grad play on a youth travel team?
Your answer actually is what I am talking about, blame others (with some reason) when the player doesn't get in his playing time. The easiest thing to do is walk away.
In this case, I doubt whether we or most others would have been in that situation to begin with.
Walk away? Yeah we walked away. We will probably never play with that coach again. tHis wasn't about blaming others for son not getting playing time, it was entirely about being misled. I would have had no problem going to one of the showcase events that weekend on another team knowing son would get limited playing time on one of those teams. We decided that playing on this team would do the most in ending the season on a good note achieving some last seasons end goals. Instead, we were left feeling misled and lied to. I honestly believe you can't just never say anything and let others fall in the same trap. People have a conscience and sometimes they need to be reminded of their misdeeds.
GBM,
Why was your son playing on a travel team that had a graduate HS player on it?
What was the age bracket?
I mean seriously what type of travel team was that?
You used your savings for that?
Can you explain?
BTW, mine along with many here were lousy rec ball players and they did just fine. In my neck of the woods, if you can pay, chances are you will play, so travel ball has it's issues.
Why was your son playing on a travel team that had a graduate HS player on it?
What was the age bracket?
I mean seriously what type of travel team was that?
You used your savings for that?
Can you explain?
BTW, mine along with many here were lousy rec ball players and they did just fine. In my neck of the woods, if you can pay, chances are you will play, so travel ball has it's issues.
First I want to say I am against pre-teen travel ball but I don't think its the devil either. I think the author made some good points but I don't think travel ball is the primary blame. I do see though how sports not just baseball is becoming more and more about right now. Every year on my 10-12 football team more parents of 10 year olds complain about playing time (well at least until the first time they get laid out by a 12 year old) but that's just the way it is most 10 year olds don't get on the field much.
Heck on this and other baseball and football boards I have seen hundreds of posts over the past few years about "should my son sit the bench on varsity or move down to JV for more playing time". My freshman year I made varsity. I can count the times I got on the field on one had but my friends were playing JV. They played in the field every game while I carried equipment. They got at bats while I cleaned spikes. But you know what, they were JV B----es and I was VARSITY. That's how I felt. That's how my friends on JV felt. I loved every minute of riding the pine that year.
To me that attitude is what has changed. That is why so many jump teams in travel ball. That attitude is the problem and it wasn't caused by travel ball. Travel ball just (unfortunately) gave the attitude a place to grow.
Heck on this and other baseball and football boards I have seen hundreds of posts over the past few years about "should my son sit the bench on varsity or move down to JV for more playing time". My freshman year I made varsity. I can count the times I got on the field on one had but my friends were playing JV. They played in the field every game while I carried equipment. They got at bats while I cleaned spikes. But you know what, they were JV B----es and I was VARSITY. That's how I felt. That's how my friends on JV felt. I loved every minute of riding the pine that year.
To me that attitude is what has changed. That is why so many jump teams in travel ball. That attitude is the problem and it wasn't caused by travel ball. Travel ball just (unfortunately) gave the attitude a place to grow.
I think that you have brought up some very good points to the discussion.
It definetly is more about attitude.
It definetly is more about attitude.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
Why was your son playing on a travel team that had a graduate HS player on it?
What was the age bracket?
I mean seriously what type of travel team was that?
You used your savings for that?
Can you explain?
BTW, mine along with many here were lousy rec ball players and they did just fine. In my neck of the woods, if you can pay, chances are you will play, so travel ball has it's issues.
It was in an 18u division. The kid was still 18 at the time.
We set up a baseball savings account every year specifically for fees, equipment, travel expense, etc. We used the last of it for last year on that adventure. We have a limited budget and so we have to pick and choose which events we will go to each year.
Travel ball pretty much anywhere in the country has it's issues- more of a problem with parents than players. But, rec ball has a way higher degree of issues that just don't jive with playing competetively. Our travel ball is set up locally and includes teams from about 5 states with about 300-400 teams signing up each year. Some of it gets very competetive and as any travel league in the country- it has it's few bad teams made up of players mostly "paying to pay". Perhaps the OP article should be more pointed at those few specific teams because for the most part, travel ball is a step up in every way to ordinary rec ball.
quote:Originally posted by coach scotty:
First I want to say I am against pre-teen travel ball but I don't think its the devil either. I think the author made some good points but I don't think travel ball is the primary blame. I do see though how sports not just baseball is becoming more and more about right now. Every year on my 10-12 football team more parents of 10 year olds complain about playing time (well at least until the first time they get laid out by a 12 year old) but that's just the way it is most 10 year olds don't get on the field much.
Heck on this and other baseball and football boards I have seen hundreds of posts over the past few years about "should my son sit the bench on varsity or move down to JV for more playing time". My freshman year I made varsity. I can count the times I got on the field on one had but my friends were playing JV. They played in the field every game while I carried equipment. They got at bats while I cleaned spikes. But you know what, they were JV B----es and I was VARSITY. That's how I felt. That's how my friends on JV felt. I loved every minute of riding the pine that year.
To me that attitude is what has changed. That is why so many jump teams in travel ball. That attitude is the problem and it wasn't caused by travel ball. Travel ball just (unfortunately) gave the attitude a place to grow.
So let me ask this important question- Is it any different with professional players of most any sport jumping around from team to team these days? What about "opportunity"? We live in a slightly different world now. When I was a kid a player usually spent his whole career in one organization. Nowdays, because of the game of "opportunity" has opened up, many players get traded to other teams to better enhance their playing time and abilities. How is this any different with a lot of travel team opportunities?
I agree with you that the "attitude" has changed in a lot of degrees, but, so has the competition and the number of folks playing baseball has greatly increased. With that competition and increase in quantity of players, more opportunities abound to better suit individual needs. If Johnny isn't getting playing time on team X he can move over to team Y. I see the same thing in professional sports. If Johhny-next-Jeter isn't excelling too well on pro team X he may ask to get traded to pro team Y. Both from a players perspective and managers perspective, the opportunities we have now better allow players to find something to fit into before the dream window of opportunity disappears.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Our travel ball is set up locally and includes teams from about 5 states with about 300-400 teams signing up each year. Some of it gets very competetive and as any travel league in the country- it has it's few bad teams made up of players mostly "paying to pay". Perhaps the OP article should be more pointed at those few specific teams because for the most part, travel ball is a step up in every way to ordinary rec ball.
Perhaps this is a point the author was trying to make. Could be no difference at all between some travel teams and rec ball.
My sons first travel experience was in rec ball. One team from each division was allowed to sponsor a team that "traveled" to other counties (we played khorey). In the fall we played the league as well as local tournies. That meant the best played travel ball, and everyone got to play, wasn't overloaded with players.
We played competitively but not expensively. Some of the kids on these teams back when son was young are also still involved in proball, that's how good they were.When son was in HS, the premier travel teams in our area still are to this day, they played against each other, then travel bb hit it big. Everyone basically has switched over to travel ball. That's why I said if you can afford what they are offering, most likely you are in. For the better travel teams, it doesn't work like that, you have to be one of the best in your area, state or country to play, and that means that someone sits the bench, at some point and some of these teams carry large rosters in tournaments. Some are not competitive but may appear to be as they associate the word "travel" with it. They do not play any league in particular, we were with Connie Mack and played a 68 game summer schedule (now that's travel ball), many are just teams made up to play tournies.
I am not really sure about your story of your 14 year old playing with 18 year olds and claiming that your son and some of the players were better, I mean really if that was a travel team and the younger ones were the better ones, how competitive was that 18u league?
If you don't like your situation on one team or coach you just go looking for another travel team to play on, I think that is what the point of the article was, am not necessarily in agreement or against his opinion.
quote:
Perhaps this is a point the author was trying to make. Could be no difference at all between some travel teams and rec ball.
My sons first travel experience was in rec ball. One team from each division was allowed to sponsor a team that "traveled" to other counties (we played khorey). In the fall we played the league as well as local tournies. That meant the best played travel ball, and everyone got to play, wasn't overloaded with players.
When son was in HS, the premier travel teams in our area still are to this day, they played against each other, then travel bb hit it big. Everyone basically has switched over to travel ball. That's why I said if you can afford what they are offering, most likely you are in. For the better travel teams, it doesn't work like that, you have to be one of the best in your area, state or country to play, and that means that someone sits the bench, at some point and some of these teams carry large rosters in tournaments. Some are not competitive but may appear to be as they associate the word "travel" with it. They do not play any league in particular, we were with Connie Mack and played a 68 game summer schedule (now that's travel ball), many are just teams made up to play tournies.
I am not really sure about your story of your 14 year old playing with 18 year olds and claiming that your son and some of the players were better, I mean really if that was a travel team and the younger ones were the better ones, how competitive was that 18u league?
If you don't like your situation on one team or coach you just go looking for another travel team to play on, I think that is what the point of the article was, am not necessarily in agreement or against his opinion.
My son played local rec ball at the usual age- t-ball at age 5-7 then moved on to coach pitch for two years and then into little league at age 9. That year his rec ball coach told us that we needed to put son on a travel team. Around our parts its called "super league" and consists of teams from the five neighboring states around Utah and Idaho. This is different than the local "all-star" league set up as players from the best in rec ball that travel around to different counties playing other all-star caliber teams. Most of those tournaments ban the "superleague" from their tournies. The "super league" is made up of teams mostly from Utah, Idaho and Nevada. The superleague is owned locally and is called the "RMSB" (Rocky Mountain School of Baseball). Everyone knows about this superleague in our area. Most kids still play rec ball even if they are also on a superleague team. This makes our rec ball pretty good. 2 years ago, our rec ball Babe ruth/Cal Ripken league sent a team of local players to the Cal Ripken world series. Rec ball is very popular in my area and it is still what separates the players from either playing rec ball or superleague. Many know that once one gets to the "travel" level they are at least better than the average "good player" in the rec leagues and all-star teams made from those rec leagues. Many also know it is a priveledge to play in our local travel league, knowing that it is the next level above rec ball and all-star. Anyways, we got our son into the superleage when he was 10 years old and it was from there that he learned real fast he wasn't the only "ball player" around! It was through this experience over the next few years that taught son how to compete against the very best talent around. It taught him that you actually have to work "everyday" at baseball to compete and be better than the next Joe around. It also taught him that coaches and teams expected a lot more than what rec ball coaches and teams demanded. In our parts, all of the best players getting scholarships and getting drafted are the ones who have grown up through the years playing in the local travel league.
I guess we just have a much different view on "travel ball" in my neck of the woods. Our travel ball is not some "glorified rec ball league" as it seems is the case in other parts of the country. You actually have to compete and be "good" to stay afloat in our travel league. The few teams that are made up of "pay to play" types get their pine crowns creamed to no end weekend after miserable weekend and it isn't long before those teams disappear altogether. But, as soon as they do others pop up. Some people never figure it out that you actually have to be "good" to play travel ball I guess.
I really don't have that much on the negative side to say about "travel ball". My beef, having seen both sides, is how "travel ball" always gets a bad rap and yet, the whole community cheers when these kids get older and start winning state championships at the HS level! They are the same kids!
You bet, I do have a problem with the "wannabe travel teams" that pay to play. More in general, it is those few parents forking out the big bucks thinking their son is the next Jeter that paints the bad name for travel ball. Trust me, I can't stand any player who has played on my team through the years that believes they automatically get "playing time" just because of their "name" or "status" in the community. I absolutely can't stand any player or parents of a player that thinks he has nothing to work on (thinks he knows it all already) and is lazy. But, usually, in our parts, those players never make it out of rec ball to compete at the higher level.
As for the team from last fall we played on, my son was the youngest player on the team. There were no other 14 year olds on the team. The other kids that didn't play much were as old as the players from the other state.
GBM,
You still crack me up. I ain't lying.
YGD
You still crack me up. I ain't lying.
YGD
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM,
You still crack me up. I ain't lying.
YGD
Yeah, I crack myself up too!
These are parents and coaches posting here right? My point exactly.
Amazing how people dodge the fact baseball is a game, just go play. Including the author.
Lets all tell our own kids story, LOL.
Amazing how people dodge the fact baseball is a game, just go play. Including the author.
Lets all tell our own kids story, LOL.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM,
You still crack me up. I ain't lying.
YGD
ditto
You should go back and read over your posts.
Didn't you state you got mad at the coach because your son only got in 4 innings in a tournie. Doesn't that kind of put you in that same category as those type of folks you detest?
So you are saying that your son (younger) deserved more playing time im that tournie?
I won't even get into the rest of it.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM,
You still crack me up. I ain't lying.
YGD
ditto
You should go back and read over your posts.
Didn't you state you got mad at the coach because your son only got in 4 innings in a tournie. Doesn't that kind of put you in that same category as those type of folks you detest?
So you are saying that your son (younger) deserved more playing time im that tournie?
I won't even get into the rest of it.
You got it all wrong. I detest the kids and parents who "think" they are all that and do not put in the work to actually prove it. My complaint with the coach was all about being "misled". Somehow you have this way of taking things I say and turning them into things I have never said.
The posts on this thread are very insightful. I nominate this thread as a 'Golden Thread'. Anybody care to second this?
Sorry GBM, you posts just confuse me and at times makes no sense.
I guess I misunderstood, you were talking about being misled and the topic is about how travel has hurt player work ethic and attitude, you have gotten into describing a situation, that was more or less about a coach misleading you and your family and having to drain your specific account you set up for baseball travel (you claim that your 14 year old didn't pitch enough while playing in an 18u tournament). Not sure what you ere misled about what 14 year old pitchers are expected to do in a weekend tournament, what EXACTLT were your expectations? I think that has a lot to do with the topic, expectations. You beleived your son was way far better than the others on the team, therefore he deserved uch more playing time. I think that is a very large part of the problem presented.
I guess I should learn to be a better listener, but to be honest I am not sure whatever you had to say had anything to do with this topic.
What you speak of the correlation between professionals jumping from team to team and the topic has nothing to do with the other, the only time you have an opportunity to make your own decision in bb and most sports is when you become a FA. Yes, definetly sometimes you get traded or put on waivers because it isn't a good fit. You just don't go switching because you aren't playing enough that you like. If you are seeing teh bench, you get off of it and work your butt off to see more playing time, for some they beleive "switching" is the easier route.
Again I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic but makes for good discussion.
Got that?
I guess I misunderstood, you were talking about being misled and the topic is about how travel has hurt player work ethic and attitude, you have gotten into describing a situation, that was more or less about a coach misleading you and your family and having to drain your specific account you set up for baseball travel (you claim that your 14 year old didn't pitch enough while playing in an 18u tournament). Not sure what you ere misled about what 14 year old pitchers are expected to do in a weekend tournament, what EXACTLT were your expectations? I think that has a lot to do with the topic, expectations. You beleived your son was way far better than the others on the team, therefore he deserved uch more playing time. I think that is a very large part of the problem presented.
I guess I should learn to be a better listener, but to be honest I am not sure whatever you had to say had anything to do with this topic.
What you speak of the correlation between professionals jumping from team to team and the topic has nothing to do with the other, the only time you have an opportunity to make your own decision in bb and most sports is when you become a FA. Yes, definetly sometimes you get traded or put on waivers because it isn't a good fit. You just don't go switching because you aren't playing enough that you like. If you are seeing teh bench, you get off of it and work your butt off to see more playing time, for some they beleive "switching" is the easier route.
Again I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic but makes for good discussion.
Got that?
FWIW, the author's organization is holding tryouts for a couple of.......Travel Teams
quote:FWIW, the author's organization is holding tryouts for a couple of.......Travel Teams
Yeah, they do usually put together some pretty good teams.
I kind of wonder if the column was a response to some players jumping ship. But I don't know.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Sorry GBM, you posts just confuse me and at times makes no sense.
I guess I misunderstood, you were talking about being misled and the topic is about how travel has hurt player work ethic and attitude, you have gotten into describing a situation, that was more or less about a coach misleading you and your family and having to drain your specific account you set up for baseball travel (you claim that your 14 year old didn't pitch enough while playing in an 18u tournament). Not sure what you ere misled about what 14 year old pitchers are expected to do in a weekend tournament, what EXACTLT were your expectations? I think that has a lot to do with the topic, expectations. You beleived your son was way far better than the others on the team, therefore he deserved uch more playing time. I think that is a very large part of the problem presented.
I guess I should learn to be a better listener, but to be honest I am not sure whatever you had to say had anything to do with this topic.
What you speak of the correlation between professionals jumping from team to team and the topic has nothing to do with the other, the only time you have an opportunity to make your own decision in bb and most sports is when you become a FA. Yes, definetly sometimes you get traded or put on waivers because it isn't a good fit. You just don't go switching because you aren't playing enough that you like. If you are seeing teh bench, you get off of it and work your butt off to see more playing time, for some they beleive "switching" is the easier route.
Again I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic but makes for good discussion.
Got that?
I am going to be very honest and be very nice about it also. Yes indeed you need to be a better kistener. Once again you are misrepresenting or misinterpreting what I said. You just stated-
"(you claim that your 14 year old didn't pitch enough while playing in an 18u tournament). Not sure what you ere misled about what 14 year old pitchers are expected to do in a weekend tournament, what EXACTLT were your expectations?"
Whoever said anything about son not pitching enough at tournament? I never said that. Again you don't listen very well. I never claimed that son didn't get enough pitching time in at tournament. We were led to believe that son would get plenty of defensive playing time and quite a few at-bats none of which happened. We basically traveled a 1000 miles and spent 750 dollars just to watch kids who we didn't even know play. We could have easily spent the same money, traveled the same distance and actually had a positive end to the season with son playing on a different team.
School related baseball is one thing. Being paid to play is another thing. Sticking with the topic of travel baseball could we say there are different levels of travel baseball?
Travel baseball ranges from highly competitive national caliber teams to teams that really don’t play the best possible competition. The most competitive teams range from “pay to play” to those totally sponsored, so players do not “pay to play”. These teams sometimes offer different things for the players, as well. There are some of the best teams in the country that kids pay a fee and some that require no fee.
IMO, there is a difference in these teams. If someone is going to sponsor (pay the bills) and a player commits to that team, two things to think about.
1. That player is someone the team thinks is important and he will get an opportunity to play his way into or out of the lineup. He is actually being “recruited” by that team.
2. That player should understand his situation before committing.
If a player is “paying to play” things are different.
1. They should either get the opportunity to play or be told they are likely to be a role player or reserve on that team.
2. If someone believes they are “paying to play” rather than “paying to be on the team or sit on the bench” there will be a problem.
This is where things could be different from one team to another. Lots of difference between the team that just plays in the tournaments and the team that actually helps develop players in other ways.
We can talk forever about how important it is to sit on the bench and the important lessons it might teach. We all know how important having role players, good teammates, working hard, overcoming obsticles, and having players on the bench is.
And everyone knows that as a season progresses change is likely. Players can change positions, injuries can happen, etc. The better the team and the better the competition, the more likely the pitchers will just pitch rather than play both ways. Lots of differences between the level of teams and even the different age levels.
I really believe that if someone is actually “paying to play” then they should “play” unless there is a prior agreement. I can’t imagine why anyone would “pay to sit” unless they understood ahead of time that it might happen that way.
If I were coaching a team full of players who paid to play, I would feel obligated to make sure they all play. If I were coaching a team where no one had to pay, I wouldn’t feel the same obligation.
Let’s face it, if a kid is a good player, he might learn some valuable lessons by sitting on the bench all the time, but those same lessons are sure to come later on. What he loses is the experience and opportunity to compete on the field and get better. He also loses the opportunity to be seen by people who make decisions. You can’t evaluate the ability of those who are not playing. In most cases he is not having as much fun as those that are playing the game.
All that said… Parents should understand that teams can’t operate with only 10-11 players. Someone does need to sit, it’s very much a part of the game. However, if it’s a team that just plays games, I’m not buying how much I can learn sitting on the bench all the time. And I sure don’t think it’s enough that I should “pay” for those lessons. I can sit right behind the dugout and learn quite a bit without having to pay for it. Or there are a number of other teams I could pay to play for and actually play. Does it make me a lesser person if I actually choose what I “pay” for? That I don’t want to pay a lot of money to sit on the bench all the time?
I think it’s a bit like the old, my kid is a slow runner so running isn’t that important. My kid doesn’t have that great of an arm, so velocity is overrated. In this case it’s my kid plays most all the time so sitting on the bench is OK, or maybe even a good thing. But how many here would actually pay a lot of money to have their 15-16 year old son sit on the travel team bench all the time?
Travel baseball ranges from highly competitive national caliber teams to teams that really don’t play the best possible competition. The most competitive teams range from “pay to play” to those totally sponsored, so players do not “pay to play”. These teams sometimes offer different things for the players, as well. There are some of the best teams in the country that kids pay a fee and some that require no fee.
IMO, there is a difference in these teams. If someone is going to sponsor (pay the bills) and a player commits to that team, two things to think about.
1. That player is someone the team thinks is important and he will get an opportunity to play his way into or out of the lineup. He is actually being “recruited” by that team.
2. That player should understand his situation before committing.
If a player is “paying to play” things are different.
1. They should either get the opportunity to play or be told they are likely to be a role player or reserve on that team.
2. If someone believes they are “paying to play” rather than “paying to be on the team or sit on the bench” there will be a problem.
This is where things could be different from one team to another. Lots of difference between the team that just plays in the tournaments and the team that actually helps develop players in other ways.
We can talk forever about how important it is to sit on the bench and the important lessons it might teach. We all know how important having role players, good teammates, working hard, overcoming obsticles, and having players on the bench is.
And everyone knows that as a season progresses change is likely. Players can change positions, injuries can happen, etc. The better the team and the better the competition, the more likely the pitchers will just pitch rather than play both ways. Lots of differences between the level of teams and even the different age levels.
I really believe that if someone is actually “paying to play” then they should “play” unless there is a prior agreement. I can’t imagine why anyone would “pay to sit” unless they understood ahead of time that it might happen that way.
If I were coaching a team full of players who paid to play, I would feel obligated to make sure they all play. If I were coaching a team where no one had to pay, I wouldn’t feel the same obligation.
Let’s face it, if a kid is a good player, he might learn some valuable lessons by sitting on the bench all the time, but those same lessons are sure to come later on. What he loses is the experience and opportunity to compete on the field and get better. He also loses the opportunity to be seen by people who make decisions. You can’t evaluate the ability of those who are not playing. In most cases he is not having as much fun as those that are playing the game.
All that said… Parents should understand that teams can’t operate with only 10-11 players. Someone does need to sit, it’s very much a part of the game. However, if it’s a team that just plays games, I’m not buying how much I can learn sitting on the bench all the time. And I sure don’t think it’s enough that I should “pay” for those lessons. I can sit right behind the dugout and learn quite a bit without having to pay for it. Or there are a number of other teams I could pay to play for and actually play. Does it make me a lesser person if I actually choose what I “pay” for? That I don’t want to pay a lot of money to sit on the bench all the time?
I think it’s a bit like the old, my kid is a slow runner so running isn’t that important. My kid doesn’t have that great of an arm, so velocity is overrated. In this case it’s my kid plays most all the time so sitting on the bench is OK, or maybe even a good thing. But how many here would actually pay a lot of money to have their 15-16 year old son sit on the travel team bench all the time?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I really believe that if someone is actually “paying to play” then they should “play” unless there is a prior agreement. I can’t imagine why anyone would “pay to sit” unless they understood ahead of time that it might happen that way.
If I were coaching a team full of players who paid to play, I would feel obligated to make sure they all play. If I were coaching a team where no one had to pay, I wouldn’t feel the same obligation.
I 100% agree. The problem is when that expectation is carried over to a HS team. This is why I feel travel ball isn't the culprit but it does allow the problem to fester.
Years ago before travel and all that we had was rec ball. It worked like HS. When you moved up and was in the young group you sat the bench and played outfield. The next year when you were the oldest on the team you played infield and never sat the bench. So when HS came around and you sat the bench as Freshman and sophomore then started as a junior senior you were already used to it. Travel has given kids a chance to move teams and not just be stuck on one team. Some families see that it is just this way in this particular venue but others seem to have started believing all of sports is like this.
I'm not saying this is good or bad and I sure wouldn't claim it's the destruction of the game. I do believe though that if this attitude develops in a player that the player will have a harder and harder time with each level they move up because working your way into the lineup becomes a longer and harder task.
coach scotty,
Very good points!
Most everything has there plus and minus. Of course, I think you would agree, as a HS coach (which I'm not) I would rather have my future players getting as much "playing" experience as possible and against the best possible competition.
I do think that when someone commits to a team, they should keep with it. Also, I don't think finding the best possible opportunity to actually "play" is going to ruin the player, ruin baseball, or anything else for that matter.
In fact, I would encourage "playing" at the highest level, yet we hear about a few HS coaches who are very much against that. That is a different topic that has been discussed many times here.
Very good points!
Most everything has there plus and minus. Of course, I think you would agree, as a HS coach (which I'm not) I would rather have my future players getting as much "playing" experience as possible and against the best possible competition.
I do think that when someone commits to a team, they should keep with it. Also, I don't think finding the best possible opportunity to actually "play" is going to ruin the player, ruin baseball, or anything else for that matter.
In fact, I would encourage "playing" at the highest level, yet we hear about a few HS coaches who are very much against that. That is a different topic that has been discussed many times here.
PG,
Good stuff, and who would know better than you about travel teams.
I do agree there are travel teams and then there are travel teams (I know you understand).
Is this about sitting all the time or sitting just some of the time, there is a difference, isn't there? I mean it's pretty obvious if you sit every game, you need to go looking for another team, one that perhaps would be a better fit.
Travel means different things to different folks (as evident in this topic). I am almost embarrassed to say in grade school and middle school my son played on travel teams to have fun and learn the basics and stayed within state and close to home and traveled in HS for college exposure (where he traveled out of state).
I am not sure that's the norm these days.
I definetly agree that you don't get better by sitting, but I don't agree with people's opinions that you have to travel long distances to play the game to get better.
Good stuff, and who would know better than you about travel teams.
I do agree there are travel teams and then there are travel teams (I know you understand).
Is this about sitting all the time or sitting just some of the time, there is a difference, isn't there? I mean it's pretty obvious if you sit every game, you need to go looking for another team, one that perhaps would be a better fit.
Travel means different things to different folks (as evident in this topic). I am almost embarrassed to say in grade school and middle school my son played on travel teams to have fun and learn the basics and stayed within state and close to home and traveled in HS for college exposure (where he traveled out of state).
I am not sure that's the norm these days.
I definetly agree that you don't get better by sitting, but I don't agree with people's opinions that you have to travel long distances to play the game to get better.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I definetly agree that you don't get better by sitting, but I don't agree with people's opinions that you have to travel long distances to play the game to get better.
TPM - not trying to be a wise-guy here but you have to consider where people live. In Florida, I am sure a kid can get a competitive game right down the street.
In Ohio or Idaho or Wyoming or South Dakota or wherever in some of the vast spaces our country occupies, you might very well have to travel "long" distances to get in the "game." This is a national recruiting site and the rules that work in California, Texas, and Florida do not necessarily translate to other parts of the country.
a major stumbling block on this site interms of discussionis that posters cite examples but ther is not any relationship to what happens inparts of the country ouside of theirs-- not to mention comparing different age brackets---as has been noted travel ball here is not the same as travel ball there