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quote:
Riding the bench has always played a major role in sports. But travel baseball has all but eliminated that. As long as you know how to write a check you can start every game. Every player needs a different kind of check though at some point in this game - a reality check - to ensure his work ethic and attitude are in the right place as he strives to accomplish something in this game.


Travel ball has diminished some of the problems parents have like dealing with coaches that won't favor their child but at some point the kid has to have talent. Even with some talent every kid will become "exposed" at some point. At some point, no amount of money can buy continued play. If you have money, you can participate longer for awhile. All that money spent for cool uniforms, hotel rooms, travel expenses, weekend road trips, tournaments, indoor practice facilities, top priced equipment, etc. really needs no justification to others.

The one thing that can't be purchased is desire. You can't buy the proper attitude or work ethic. Kids aren't stupid. They know what you are spending. They know that they don't have to earn it. Travel ball in and of itself isn't harmful. There are great memories created. We all purchase our brand of happiness with every dime we spend. However, there are still baseball experiences that can be had for little or no money. These experiences can be as fulfilling as the travel ball gig. It has been this way forever. It will all sort itself out in the end, when your son becomes "exposed." Hopefully the love of the game will still smolder somewhere in that heart of his and life lessons will play out for many many years.
quote:
Riding the bench has always played a major role in sports.


When I read this, I found myself thinking of the line in Caddyshack when the judge said "the world needs ditch diggers too."

I like some of the author's stuff, but I think he's off base on this one. Couple things; I have yet to see a team put together where a player (past 12u, anyway) paid his way onto a prime starting spot he didn't deserve. Has it probably happened in greater or lesser circumstances? I guess it probably has, but I suspect that the other ballplayers and coaches might have SOME influence.

In my opinion, while you can learn some of the game riding the pine, I think few ballplayers are going to hang around when they can find a team so that they can prove what they can do. My experience is that these guys are self-starters and are moving so that they can prove they can get the job done. These aren't the guys waiting for mommy or daddy to write a check so they can say they played "up the middle."

"Basically, if a player is unhappy these days, he just goes to where he is happy - never getting that reality check that he really isn't that good and he needs to work hard(er)."

I just don't see this as cause and effect; I mean, flip it around, players can avoid working harder by moving to a different team? No, if you don't want to work, you're done. That's baseball, no matter the team.
Last edited by Ole Ball Coach
I think the logic might not be quite there, but I think I know what he means.

Look, I think there are two entirely seperate aspects (he might be confusing them) and one is served in one venue and one in another.

Every kid should play every inning, every summer imho. Whatever it takes to play, they should play. Whether that be the lowest rec league, legion team, travel team, showcase team, or select team or whatever you want to call it. The whole idea at the youth level is to play the game so I think every kid ought to go find that place for themselves.

At about 9th grade however, things change in one respect during the school season (summer remains similar). There, kids will be asked to make a freshmen team or higher and they are often competing against other kids from other travel teams. It is about desire and heart at that point. The first time a kid may be asked to go out and beat out a better player if they ever want to see the playing field. As Coach May has said, competition is the ingredient that forges steel.

Travel ball/summer ball teaches kids how to play the game. High school ball teaches kids how to compete. Both are equally important imho.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
I could buy his theory for pre-highschool but from there on in the large highschools playing time is earned with plenty of reality checks in the winning programs. As for DI players overestimating their ability it takes two. The coach recruiting him and the players desire to reach for his highest opportunity. I see nothing wrong with some " free agency " in college. The five years to play four goes fast enough and both parties deserve the chance to find out. Also, dropping down to a " quality DII " is no guarantee either.
I gathered what the author was talking about was that there are so many travel teams now, that any kid at any talent level can get on some team and start and even get on some team and be the star. Then once he gets to HS, both he and his parents are in a position where they are so enamored with his "starting spot", they think he is the best player ever and should be starting varsity. They don't realize the real talent that is out there and are disillusioned with the HS coach and program because they don't see how good their son is.

I have seen this on more than one occasion. Lower level, pre-HS travel teams that play other low level teams sometimes don't realize what is actually out there. When they get to HS, where it is truly a competitive environment, they just don't know how to deal with it.
I agree with bballman.

There are so many programs out there for a kid to play travel ball where back in the day you really had to be a special player. As it is, if their kid isn't as good as the parent believes, then it's real simple, the dad starts his own team and Johnny plays every inning.

I have no beef with the dad who does it to try and help his kid progress. I've seen and played with late bloomers, so that's not the problem. The problem arises when the dads that swear their kid is travel-caliber and they get to JHS or JV level and they realize he's not going to be the next Jeter.

Then it's "everyone elses fault" or "they just don't know how good my kid is". As mentioned here, that's when reality kicks in and the kid's (or really the dad's(?)" dream ends.

There are some kids cut for travel-caliber ball and others that simply aren't. I just don't see the need to pursue the delusional and not just accept where your kid is and let him do have fun. If he's good enough to play upper-caliber ball, then great, and if he's not, there's nothing wrong with in-house or other recreational ball more suited to his skill-set.
Basically, if a player is unhappy these days, he just goes to where he is happy - never getting that reality check that he really isn't that good and he needs to work hard(er).

I have had conversations with some parents who spend money for an elite travel, or whatever name the team has and they complain they spent time and money to go somewhere and their kid gets 2 at bats on a trip. I spent all that money etc etc . On the other hand I talked to a father whose kid got cut from the high school team and came out a year lat er and made it.
Some great comments above. I absolutely agree that there are a lot of players that don't realize the depth of the pool they are in, but I think they need to be somewhere where the game will teach them that. The players that move to another team don't believe the game is more than they can handle. If the game teaches them that, they may or may not move again, but they have the opportunity to find out. Contrary to the article, I think that that is a good thing.

Now, there is an argument that the explosion in travel ball has done its part to minimize the number of young folks playing baseball in this country overall (basically, the only way to be successful is to play it ten months a year). THAT is a conversation I'd like to have....
Last edited by Ole Ball Coach
Travel ball isn't the cause of the attitude in the article. The parents are the cause of the attitude. Travel ball only allows the attitude to play out.

It's ironic I found this post. I'm sitting in Panera. I just listened to two mothers complaining their son's were always all-stars until the high school coach got a hold of them. Neither son made varsity as a sophomore.
Two sides to every story. Some places are just not a good fit and never will be to some talented players. Some can't buy a break and some are handed them.

"Find coaches to play for have the ability to help you improve your weaknesses and who can see and appreciate what you “can do” versus focusing on what you “can't do.”



http://www.prospectwire.com/pw...layers-can-do-part-1


not always easy on the first try.
Last edited by showme
I have seen my fair share of different travel teams over the years traveling around and playing with a myriad of different talent and such. What I have generally noticed is that just like rec ball, travel teams have their certain kids who think they are "all that" and believe that they don't really have to work at it. Usually, it is the parents that brainwash their kids into believeing they are the next Jeter and some think that it just comes "naturally" and don't really have to work at it.

But, I disagree with the general attitude of the article posted. Travel ball is competetive. All too often the coaches are more concerned with getting their kids playing spots and time and winning at any cost besides their own kid. Moving from one travel team to another is about finding the right fit with players, talent level, and coaching. I have moved my kid from 2 separate travel teams because of bad coaching and lack of incentive to be better by the players in general. When i moved son off one team I told the coach why and how we wanted to find a team a little more committed. He agreed and we parted under good terms.

My son played rec ball up through his 12th year. It finally got to the point where it was not a good situation because the talent was just not there and it was hurting his ability to play and compete and saty on the cutting edge. Seeing pitcher after pitcher who posed no challenge to son got him into the habit of playing too lazy. He also played travel ball during those years. We finally moved just to travel ball and he has excelled there. I also believe it is the sole reason why he made the varsity team as a freshman and is a regualar everyday starter. Thanks all to travel ball!
I think the author is wrong. What good does it do any player to sit the bench rather than taking their hacks. Baseball is a game of reps. If a player goes on Team A and they are a great team but he rarely plays, Team B is a .500 team where he gets a starting spot and stays in the game, where would the kid rather play? Thats a no brainer. For the author to think the subject is surrounded by conflict is wrong. Many a coach when apprached by player & parent and asked if they can leave to another team to get more playing time, is very understood by all parties.
Sounds like just another rip on travel ball.
Kids need to play coming up in the game. They also need to learn what it means to work to get better when not actually playing games. They also need to learn that someone has to sit the bench. They also need to learn what a team player is. They also need to learn if they don't want to sit the bench more than the other players they better work towards that goal. There comes a time in the game where you simply can not pay for play. There comes a time in the game where performance is going to be the only thing that is going to count.

Sometimes the player and parents of the player who have always been in the line up struggle with the fact that this point and time actually comes. They show up at a HS game and their son is not in the line up. They have never watched a baseball game in their life where their son was not actually playing. They have never learned how to be team parents. The player has never gone to the park and worked just as hard as everyone else only to find himself sitting the bench during a game. He has never learned how to be a team player.

Oh no! It has to be someone's fault. Something has had to go wrong here. I know someone has to sit the bench but not my son. He has always played.

There was a time when you tried out for the team and if you were not good enough you got cut. There was a time when if you were not one of the better players you had to learn how to work your way into the line up somehow. You had to learn to carve out a niche for yourself. You had to battle. Now that time only comes when players reach the HS ranks. After all that money spent on travel ball and traveling around the country playing games and now my son is sitting the bench!

I believe kids need to play. I don't believe they need to wait until they are 15 and in HS to learn what it feels like to have to earn it. I don't believe they have to play every inning of every game and be set up in situations where they never have to learn what it takes to overcome obstacles in the game. The more competition they have growing up in the game to get in a line up and stay in a line up the better they will be for it down the road.

What we have now in many cases are kids who have paid a certain amount of money and are given a role and its always been that way for them and the parents. When those rules change its not only the player who struggles with this concept its the parents of that player as well in many cases.

I like the idea of kids all getting equal time up the age of around 12 years old. Then I like the idea of them having to earn their playing time. That might actually require them to work a little harder to get it. It might actually require them to sit the bench from time to time. That might actually motivate them to get better and work on their game. It also might give them a better understanding of how to treat those that are not in the line up and how to appreciate it when they are.

"I know someone has to sit the bench and that's ok. As long as its not my son."

Put your kid in situations where he has to compete to get on the field before he has to compete to make a team. You will be doing him a big favor in the long run. Parents don't want to see their child on the bench. Players don't want to be on the bench. By putting him in situations where he never has to worry about it in some cases you are making sure he will down the road. JMHO
I look back on the team that my son was invited to play on that traveled to Jupiter for the Junior Olympics. He joined a team that had been together for years made up of players from Tampa, we lived 80 miles away in Ocala, and (we found out after the fact) was brought on to jump start the middle infield that was prone to being too secure in their positions. Needless to say he was not well liked, and for the first time in his life spent a significant amount of time on the bench. When he had his chance he gave it all he had, but it was not a position he ever wanted to be in again. And it was interesting for us as parents as well. We did not anticipate spending a week in Jupiter and seeing our son play an inning here or there or get subbed in after a player had a bad attitude. We were so naive back then we went through all the hoops to get his passport.
In hindsight it was a great lesson for us all (in reality we all knew there would be limited playing time, just did not fully appreciate how limited, lol). He has not sat much since, but he did develop character from his experience, that he carries to this day. He remembers that tournament as a difficult one to deal with, but deal with it he did as an enthusiastic team player cheering and encouraging his teammates.
Is travel ball really a problem such as is posted though? I tend to think the problem is worse for rec ball kids. Rec ball produces players that are decent and sometimes even great players. What happens though is that these rec ball kids- the studs on those teams have always batted .500, been in the starting line up, and played the desirable positions. They basically have never really sat in their lives on the bench either. Then when they get to HS and tryout and make the team they are shocked that they barely made the Freshman or JV team and then end up sitting on the bench every inning pretty much for the whole season while little Johnny who was on the travel team gets to play everyday. For the parents this is a shocker and they can't understand why their kid is even on the team if he never gets to play.

From what I have gathered, pretty much every HS team wants to win. They are not really concerned about player development for the reserve players but more concerned for the player development of the everyday players. The best players will always get the playing time plain and simple. Talent has more to do with it than anything else. Work ethic often goes hand in hand with talent. Needless to say, the travel ball kids usually have the better work ethic because they have grown up playing at a higher level of committment than ordinary rec ball. Rec ball for the most part does not breed good habits or work ethics. I used to coach rec ball and finally gave it up altogether because of the general attitude and work ethic of players of that caliber in general. Most of the good players at that level do not want to move up to travel ball because they "shine" at the rec ball level. What it really comes down to is they do not want to improve their work ethic and actually be challenged by travel ball competetiveness and so they do not improve as well as they could have.

When they finally get to HS they find themselves riding the pine most of the season. We all know that travel ball has it's negatives but the positives way outweigh the negatives. Perhaps travel ball is different in other parts of the country but in my neck of the woods if you can't cut it in travel ball you won't play even if you pay.
Two comments.
First -We actually worried about son never sitting the bench and never being challenged to get playing time. In our area it was not likely to happen - so we accepted a couple invitations for him to fill in on some much older teams for a game here or there. He sat the bench some - learned he did not like it - worked harder - and gained a new appreciation for the number 11 - 14 guys on his travel team!

Second - if you have no passion for baseball because you are not a starter - you do not really have a passion for baseball - just a passion for spotlight and praise - thats quite a problem.
Yes Really spot on

Ginger, dont confuse passion and talent and I have had some really hard working bad ball players Eek
and others who were drafted and as lazy as they get.
My last comment would be that in my parts there are HS coaches that Coach the game simply for the reason that they truely enjoy the development of every player. The development of a team.

I coach at a High School where the avereage ACT is 27. something, our talent is limited but our work ethic and hustle can always be. Even the bottom end guy,,,

I also coach a Summer team that has had a couple kids move on. I geuss in my case I have seen kids with lesser talent out work the kids with more talent.

Passion and work ethic for me rather than talent and work ethic..

Not argueing , just saying
I think there’s a big difference between learning that someone needs to sit and being the kid who sits most all the time. IMO, it’s one of those rich get richer things. Those that play are more likely to get better than those who sit on the bench. They are more likely to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. They will gain more experience in reacting to situations as they happen.
I don’t think anyone believes that baseball players don’t benefit from actually playing the game. That is what it’s all about to baseball players. That is why they are called baseball “players”.

That said, I think sitting on the bench is something every player needs to experience. It builds character and can make the right player hungry. However, it’s also one of the main reasons young kids quit the game before they have had a chance to develop. It's also more "fun" to play! Often coaches use "benching" as a form of punishment. If for some it is punishment to sit, how does the kid sitting all the time feel about it?

A young kid sitting on the bench for one of the top 14U travel teams in the country might be good enough to be on the field for the 10th or 20th best team in the country. I don’t see it as a money spent thing. Even if both teams were fully sponsored and it didn’t cost the player any money to play on either team, I could understand why someone would choose to play rather than sit. At the same time, we all know someone has to sit.

At some point, most players will experience sitting. Those able to deal with that are usually well respected by coaches and teammates. Those who can’t deal with it either quit or are told to leave. IMO, this is not a process that should take place any earlier than necessary. Guess I’m saying it’s a good thing to experience sitting on the bench (for many reasons), but it’s a better thing to be on the field (for development).

Professional baseball may not be perfect, but they figured this out many years ago. Baseball players need to play! Those they are most interested in developing (have the most invested in) play, while the bench is loaded with the extra guys. Once in a while an extra guy gets his chance and makes the most of it and becomes someone that the club gets more interested in. But usually these extra guys end up released or they decide to move on in life. Then there are those who make the Big Leagues and there they learn to sit. But those guys are paid very well to sit on the bench. For the most part, the organization prefers to keep young players in the minor leagues where they are out there playing every day rather than sitting on the bench on the Big League team all year. In other words they understand the importance of playing.

Some might think it makes no sense to use professional baseball as an example. Point is… If the highest level believes playing is so important for development, why would it be any different for the lowest level or the levels in between? Granted much can be learned sitting on the bench. But baseball players are developed on the field. Some of both might be worthwhile.

IMO this also relates to college decisions. If someone is most interested in developing their playing ability for future opportunities, they should strongly consider how often they will be in the games. In other words… what is the level or the program where I am most likely to play. There actually are some that would rather sit at the power program than play at a lesser profile program. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what they want. In fact, those guys can be a great asset and are usually very well liked by their teammates. But college coaches recruit players they want on the field, playing in the games.

These are just my opinions. Some will agree, some will disagree. Very good points by everyone, good discussion!
Who was it - Clint Hurdle? - who said something to the effect:

"In baseball, there are those that are humble and those that soon will be"

Probably not exact, but nonetheless, baseball is incredibly humbling at times and good players need to learn that. Sitting the bench often teaches humility, among a number of lessons.

By the way...it's often parents who need to learn the lessons, not the players.
I think it was Clint who said "There are two kinds of people in this game. Those that are humble and those that are about to be."

Jerry you make some great points. And every post has been very good imo. In HS I can not recruit. Well at let me just say I do not recruit. I have to take what I get and then make the very most of it in order to build a winning program. And the other side of that is I want to help every young man become the best player he can IF he has the desire to get there.

It is very important to develop all of your players because those guys on the bench most of the time one day may be the guys on the field most of the time. And you just never know whats going to happen to a kid during the HS years. I have had kids who could not get many innings as Fresh or Sophs on JV to being our best players as Sr's. The fact is the kids that get most of the attention and individual time are the ones that need it the most. The ones that are really good understand how to do their own cage work. They know how to work. They have developed a great work ethic. They dont get as much individual time from the coaching staff because they don't need as much as the others.

Just because your on the bench most of the time does not mean you will be on the bench most of the time down the road. It just means your going to have to get better. Prepare for your opportunities. And then take advantage of them. There is a big difference - Waiting for your opportunities vs Prepareing for your opportunities.

If your not playing much make sure your in a situation where you are in the summer. Make sure your preparing for opportunities in the off season. What you do in the off season will determine what you can do during the season. What sitting the bench does is force a player to make decisions. Your either going to do something about it to get on the field. Or your going to decide its not worth it and you move on. And the fact is some kids "best" is good enough to earn this role player status. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone can not be a starter. The problem is some people simply dont believe that is good enough. And many times its the people that dont wear a uniform and plant negative seeds in the persons mind that their best is not good enough.

Great posts I enjoy hearing everyone's opinion.
Coach May,

I don't disagree a bit with anything you have said. It all makes a lot of sense.

Guess I'm referring more to the travel ball subject. Knowing that it takes a juggling act at times to get most everyone sufficient playing time, someone has to sit out or we have no reserves.

I would rather have my son (who would be in the 40 and Under division) play the game. I also think it's better to just be one of those who are "playing" than to be the team superstar. It's hard when your the best, you need competition.

But rather than being a permanent bench figure, I would recommend he find a different team where he actually gets to play a lot and get better, provided it didn't cost me very much money. That way his future will have more possibilities and he might develop into a real good player by the time he is 50! Smile Besides, I won't have to go to those games and watch him sit on the bench all the time. Don't need to... I get to see him sitting on his azz nearly every day.

Anyway, I think the article that started this discussion was very good. Agree or not, it created a lot of interest and stimulated a lot of great discussion.
quote:
If your not playing much make sure your in a situation where you are in the summer.


I think Coach May said to find a travel team where you can get playing time.

The travel team I ran through 14u played at a fairly high, but not the highest level of competition by any means and we tried to keep the number of players such that everyone got plenty of playing time. Sometimes that resulted in scrambling to find enough players for a given tournament and having to play some kids out of position but that was preferable to having players sit any more than necessary.

We tried to get the best players we could but the one time we got a player (who left the pay to play team he was on after some parents took it over to get out of paying) who belonged at a higher level of competition than we were playing at we said we'd be happy to have him play with us and although he would have helped us be more competitive in the open tournaments we suggested that he would have no problem finding a stronger team than ours to play on. They found a stronger team for him and it worked for him and it worked for the kids we had quite a few of whom are playing in college now. The kid who we "turned down" was a first rounder in the most recent draft. We did end up picking up another kid who wasn't quite as talented from that pay to play team and ended up beating them in the semi's of our last tournament.

There are a lot of levels of travel teams and if a player wanted to sit on a high level team rather than play against a bit weaker competition that's their choice but not one I'd recommend.

Probably the most interesting thing was one parent who was absolutely honest with us that their kid was going to play on another team because they had a professional ballplayer coaching it and figured he'd get better competition. The parent said he hoped his son could still play with us when we needed him but understood that the regulars would get priority for playing time. Another parent in the exact same situation tried to hide what was happening from us so that her son would be the starter whenever he "deigned" to play with us. Why was it the exact same situation? Because it was only one player and the dad was telling us straight while the mom was lying to us about why the kid wasn't playing with us in some tournaments.
Last edited by CADad
This has been a good thought provoking discussion.

The author has clarified his intentions for the reasons he wrote the article in the second part
In some ways I do not agree and other ways I do, definetly agree playing only makes you better at the game but you never really know how much better you could be if you never sat and learned that you need to work harder to play everyday.

I think using pro ball is a perfect example, the late round pick sits on the bench and watches the earlier picked guys in every game, decides, not me, and he does what he can to get better to be in the game everyday. You see that happening all of the time in MLB. And yes we all agree sometimes you just work like a dog but you don't see results, but I think 70% (at least) of the time you will.

How many times have we heard about the stud guy who never sat in HS then gets to college and then has to sit. Instead of working harder to now improve, he quits and goes somewhere else to play. Is that always the answer? That's what I get out of the article.
One aspect of this that has not been addressed (I don't think) is playing position.

My guy played on a team where he was the youngest, and earned his spot when he was put in and made a number of diving catches in the outfield. He stayed in the outfield with that team until they decided to split the program and he stayed down and moved to 3rd. Eventually the team folded and he had to look for a team. That is when I found this site and posted about a player looking for a team. Good things happened and he got invited to play for a high caliber 18u Travel Team that did the WWBA and PG circut, but he made the team as an outfielder. He was a Shortstop/3B in Highschool starting varsity as a sophomore. So he joined the team and was turned into a Leftfielder, which is where the manager of the team felt he belonged and that was how he marketed him to colleges. After the 2nd season the team had issues and many people not associated with the team and maybe a coach who was, felt he belonged in the infield which is where he continued to play in Highschool.

So we made a move, it was not about playing time but it was because WE felt he belonged in the infield. Is that so bad?

So he found a new team where he played short and 3rd and never looked back. He played his first collegate year as a shortstop including over the summer, 2nd year as a 3rd baseman, and he continues to play the infield. He has never seen the outfield again unless shagging balls.

Now there is nothing wrong with the outfield, but we felt that his hands were too quick (transfering) to be in the outfield.

I think we were correct in leaving the program to find the position that we felt was most appropriate for him.
Last edited by floridafan
quote:
Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
The author was a 4 yr starter at a tremendous D1. That means he never sat bench and chased foul balls...
Kids need to be on teams they can play on and get their hacks, there will probably be a bench in their future (hs or college) so there's no need to rush it.


Right on. The author not exactly an authority on riding the pine. It's always easy for someone who never rode the bench or was always handed the starting job to tell somebody else it's ok to ride the pine until it happens to them, then their tune changes. Therefore, his credibility is in question. An article like this would be credible had it been written by somebody who paid his dues and had to work to earn his spot on the field.
Last edited by zombywoof
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
One aspect of this that has not been addressed (I don't think) is playing position.


Ok everyone address this.

As a sophmore, the bat was taken out of son's hands, and he was a darn good hitter and still is. He was designated pitcher only for 2 years, HS and travel ball. He sat the bench (when he could have been getting better at hitting right). He was REALLY UNHAPPY. Shoukld we have gone to another team where he coul dhave hit and pitch?

What would you all have done?
Yes remember we are talking about the article written and bashing travel ball. I made my comment about a reason for playing baseball on travel is to PLAY. This wasnt brought up about high school or college.
The guy that wrote the article is wrong. Why because its always the misconception that the PARENTS or PLAYER cant handle sitting. Not always the case. Many many TRAVEL coaches have understood when a player wishes to go to another team for more playing time. Who in this world doesnt want a player to get more playing time than what he qualifies for on our team.
This particular player may sit alot in hs ball, well in travel or summer ball he is not restricted to one team, he has the FREEDOM to choose and who wouldnt choose a team where he gets more playing time.

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