HS ball players are not victims

Now where did you get that from anything that I said?   Some bosses are A-holes.  Or do you really think that no bosses are assholes, that's it's always and only the workers who are to blame?  But look from the fact that some bosses are A-holes, it doesn't follow that every boss is an a-hole.  Nor does it  follow that just because the boss is an A-hole you are therefore not accountable.   Don't invent straw men.  It shows a weakness of mind, that's unaccountable to real argumentative burdens.

This is where you started this recent trend:

""I'm trying to teach him to not let external things affect his game, at all, in that way.  To just be in the moment and trust himself.  But you don't teach that by lying to  yourself.  Again, this coach -- who is himself just a kid really -- apologized to his team -- which he was on the verge of losing -- for his "motivational" tactics.   So take my word, he bears some responsibility. But one does have to learn to perform in spite of that, of course."

 

You are trying to teach your son to be in the moment and not let extrinsic things affect his play, but doing so through your reality which places blame on the coach and the coaches "motivational tactics."

You must be far more talented than I am both in baseball and in the human dynamic of coaching baseball.  My view was to let the coaches at every level do the coaching, to let our son work through the highs/lows/rights and wrongs on the baseball field, and especially to never give him the impression we felt it was okay to undermine the coach.

To be honest, in going back through your posts, it comes across that you are in a tug of war with the coach for your son, in baseball. You want to prove the coach was/is wrong and the coach was/is responsible for the failure and Dad is going to put on the bandaid and  fix what the coach broke.

Sorry, I don't think we are saying anything similar.

To be honest, I would propose it is okay that your son failed. Where I won't agree with you is the rationalizing(my perspectives) about why.  Accept he did. The big issue is did he learn from it and is he taking action to be able to succeed when he gets in that situation again. From what you are saying, he sounds like a very good player and a very hard worker and is doing all the right things. Why not trust him and his ability and talent and skill on the baseball field with the confidence he will succeed next time, and not because he worked within your reality? 

 

You really aren't getting me.   There's no tug of war here. I'll tell you how many coaches my son actually  has.  He has a private hitting coach (who happens to be the best hitting coach around here, and actually teaches hitting to 3/4 of the players on our team), a sprint coach (who is both our varsity track coach and runs an elite club track team in the off season, who has invited my son to run with his club this summer),  a strength and conditioning coach -- who is also a HS varsity coach in another program,  and he plays for both a local travel team and a national travel team.  Mostly what I do is pay the bills.   I let the coaches do the coaching.   Far too many of them for me to try to do their job. 

^^^^

That post explains a lot.  I belief I've met you and your kin many times over.  Thanks.  

I doubt it. 

These were your words, not mine:

""I'm trying to teach him to not let external things affect his game, at all, in that way.  To just be in the moment and trust himself.  But you don't teach that by lying to  yourself.  Again, this coach -- who is himself just a kid really -- apologized to his team -- which he was on the verge of losing -- for his "motivational" tactics.   So take my word, he bears some responsibility. But one does have to learn to perform in spite of that, of course."

 

I don't see how you can say this and also say you are letting the coaches do their job.

What I read is you are letting the coaches you are paying do their job. The HS coach, who is not getting paid seems to be a different story.

Do you think, with all those coaches and all you are paying, that you might have too much "invested" emotionally in the fact your son struggled this year on a HS baseball field? Again, I am going to accept your son is a talented player. Measured against it is baseball is a game of failure and failing/struggling in HS is not a "bad" thing, if the player(your son) learns how to deal with the failure and how to work through the failure back to success. Over a longer career into college, having the skill to confront and overcome failure is a real positive.

Geez.  Infielddad:

 

I haven't said a word to the HS coach.  The kid knows he's struggled.  I  told you why he struggled -- immaturity.  Because he responded to the coaches rather aggressive motivational techniques  by pushing too hard and not staying within himself.  Despite the fact that he hasn't had an AB in 14 games or so  (or maybe it's 13) he's spent hours in the cages after practice, and on game free days with his hitting coach, trying to keep his swing ready in case he's ever get called on. 

 

But it's also a fact.  Other guys -- veteran guys -- who have struggled nearly as bad haven't been benched.  There's a certain asymmetry there that's hard not to notice.  I acknowledge the asymmetry and urge him to keep working as hard as he possibly can --with the goal of, as I put it, making it the case that coach would be embarrassed to keep sitting him. 

 

What you seem to be objecting to is the acknowledgement of the asymmetry of his treatment.   Okay, object if you want.   I guess I see why. You seem to think that that acknowledgement will be controlling. I disagree.  Especially given what I know about my son, who is not a kid given to any kind of illusions or delusions either about himself or others.  I suspect that if I were to pretend he wasn't being treated asymmetrically he'd dismiss me as a lying or naive pollyanna.   But here we just agree to disagree.  Alright? 

No worries.  I see you live somewhere in my area.  There are plenty more around here more than happy to take your $$, tell you what you want to hear, agree with you that your son's coach is an a-hole and be your buddy.

 

Not here though.  Here, you get truth.  For free!  

So you know the facts a priori?  Without knowing any of the players? 

As far as I am concerned, for what would be best for your son in baseball, your post could have ended with the first paragraph.  How your son is working to be ready says everything!  While it does not matter, how your son is handling this and working to be ready is, in my view, an approach which deserves accolades and respect.

As it relates to the asymmetry, that seems like a Dad issue.  I don't think it changes anything for your son.

As I noted about the AAA player, asymmetry in baseball exists well beyond HS and occurs in MILB far more often, per number of players, than at any level...and those are guys who make their livelihood making those decisions.

What I can read is you think there is asymmetry of treatment for your son. What I am advocating is that your son does not need to hear that or hear a Dad approach which undermines the HS coach.

I recognize you think it is important for your son to have that "reality" and we will not agree either on that point and the potential impact it could have.

I read an article this week many kids are so spoiled and treated like special cupcakes now they hit the workforce post college never having had a job. So they've never learned what it's like to have a stern boss, the difference between putting in time and going the distance and why people get ticked when they're five minutes late.

So a team who was not at full force to start the season due to basketball started rough.......was able to get time together for practice and games while not being super successful........yet has turned the corner to start winning.

 

Sounds like a coach who knows what he's doing and is getting results.  It's hard to get back into a line up when the older guys get back in and produce.  Your son had his chance and unless he was doing drastically better than the guy who is older than he is he was probably heading to the bench anyway.  Not because of favorites or anything like that but to prior success.  This coach knows this older guy and knows what he's going to do.  So unless there is someone to replace him that dramatically improves the stats from that position he will go with the proven commodity.  

 

I haven't read everything in this thread but I've read that you're not telling / teaching your son to be a victim.  That's awesome because he's not.  He's a young player who's unproven.  He needs to put his time in and produce.  His time will come.  But if you can't accept that you're not going to enjoy your son's time in this sport.  He's got a small window to be a player - don't waste time being unhappy by looking for non-existent reasons for why he's being kept out of the lineup.

I really hope I'm not being rude jumping into this. i think the bottom line that most are trying to get across is that it is never in your son's best interest to bad mouth a coach or teacher. That leads to not taking responsibility for oneself.

When my son was 9 and on his first travel team, unfortunately he had a coach that had a vendetta against my husband. there were 4 players from the neighborhood who were considered the core and my son was one of them. For 4 weeks if he was lucky he would get subbed in for the last 2 innings. Sometimes he never played at all, even a double header. After a couple of weeks he was at the point that he wanted to quit the team.

my husband was ready to kill the coach and I was very upset of course, BUT .... This was a huge teaching moment. Longer story shortened, the 2nd half of the summer he started every game and never sat. He learned that summer that coach bashing is useless and for the insecure. Your coach is your boss. If you don't like it, you leave at the end of your season.

PS as I was thinking about that summer while typing this, it just occurred to me that if it weren't for the fact I knew WHY it was happening, I probably would have opened my big younger mouth to the coach about good old playing time. So that insane situation was a blessing in disguise.

I think infielddad gave some really good pieces of information here, which I've copied down by the way.  

 

I'm just going to speak about my son's situation briefly.  Before tryouts began I explained to him, if you continue baseball into college, how do you earn a starting position?  He replied that he needed to show something so that the coaches would want to give him an "opportunity".  He excelled during tryouts, bypassed the freshman and JV teams and was placed on varsity.  He went into the season knowing he was going to get an 'opportunity",  which in baseball is all you can ask for. He seized that "opportunity" and has remained a starter all season long.  

 

In an earlier post you blamed your son's struggles on the coach...

 

The kid knows he's struggled.  I  told you why he struggled -- immaturity.  Because he responded to the coaches rather aggressive motivational techniques  by pushing too hard and not staying within himself.

 

What infielddad has tried to explain is that your son should not have let ANYTHING interfere with your son's approach to the game.  I agree with him.

 

My son's coach is a nice guy.  He is actually proactive in trying to help his players move onto college.  I appreciate that.  But, that being said, his in-game strategy decisions have cost them a couple of games.  I have NEVER and I will NEVER discuss my feelings about my son's coach with him.  It is his coach, not mine.  And I'm smart enough to stay down the line so I don't discuss my thoughts with other parents either.  

 

Your son, like mine, is in high school.  It's time that they learn how to manage things for themselves, don't you agree?

 

 

Slugger dad,

So why is the coach an "a-hole?"  Because he give the experienced seniors a chance to make mistakes -- a long leash?  I really don't have a big problem with a coach who goes with the seniors -- the players who have been their.  As long as he is consistent from year to year.  It builds a program.  The seniors know it's their job to loose.  They can play loose without looking over their shoulder. 

 

Your kid really handled the situation wrong mentally.  Instead of pressing and trying to "win" the job, he should have gone in knowing that his chances where slim.  That when the older kids came back, he was going to the bench.  No pressure.  Just go up -- see the ball, hit the ball.  Play loose.  Have fun.  It doesn't matter what he does.  Better luck next time.   

I agree with this.

slugger: is your son a sophomore or junior?

SluggerDad ... If you think what has happened in high school is unfair you're an ulcer waiting to happen in college ball. Its not that things are unfair. Its just that things aren't the way you would like it to be.

 

In college ball everyone was all something in high school. The coach has a lot of options. Your son's opportunity might be pinch hitting once a week. His opportunity to earn playing time in his career may come from that one at bat per week. Is it fair? It doesn't matter. It's the way it is. It may be more chance than the next guy gets. Aside from this I've seen a two year starter lose his job to a JuCo transfer. I've seen a three year .300 hitter loses his job over a slow start (eventually won it back). I've seen highly recruited players get more opportunity to fail than other players. I've seen left handed hitters pulled every time a lefty pitcher comes in. This is a successful team coached by a respected coach. The players who survive and succeed are mentally tough and stay prepared mntally and physically. The competition in college ball is fierce. Are you going to be ready to deal with it watching your son?

You're taking me to be emotionally upset about this than I am. Again,  the kid pressed too hard when put on the spot -- though he was put on the spot.  He needs to learn to deal.  Not press, Trust himself.  Play without fear.   I get that.    He is extraordinarily talented, has been told that by many, has been told he doesn't know how talented he is.   But for complicated reasons, which I will explain in answer to another post, he let's the doubts of others cause self-doubt.  I along with his hitting coach and strength and conditioning coach are trying to teach him how to block out external things -- while not being dishonest with him.  It would be hard not to see that the HS coach favors returners (whether seniors or not) and gives them much more rope.   I think that's just confirmation bias, as I explained earlier.  It's endemic to these things, as I explained earlier.  My point, which nobody seems to get on this thread, is that realizing these truths and acknowledging them is not "playing the victim."   It's just being honest.   JP24 and others seem to think you can't let yourself see the truth.  Or if you do, you have to blame yourself, if there is someone to blame.   I disagree. 

"  He is extraordinarily talented, has been told that by many, has been told he doesn't know how talented he is."

 

Uh oh!!!

But there's got to be a limit, especially given the official rhetoric.   You give a junior a few at bats. He starts hot for two games.    After that hot start, certain guys show up off the basket ball court, haven't had a single day of practice.  He is  immediately benched to make room and to make room for the anemically hitting LF who is not a BB player. Doesn't see any action until one of them takes a slight dive for a few games.  He gets in.  Thinks if he's to stay in he has to really deliver.  Coach says as much.  He presses. Big mistake.  Meanwhile both starting at game three and continuing for a long time,  the "veterans" don't produce at all.  They continue to not produce.  One of strikes out 15 times in his first 20 or so AB's.  He never sits.  Never moves down in the line-up.  Never gets a day off.  We lose and lose for a good stretch. 

 

Fine. the coach has faith and confidence in them.  That's obvious.  But you know the same coach preaches the message.   "I don't make the line-up, you do."  And says things like,  "Nobody is entitled to anything on this team.  You have to earn everything.  And that goes for everybody."

 

It's obviously not true.  It's so obvious that it causes HUGE dissension -- not from my kid, not from me.  We don't speak up.   I tell him in the midst of all the ruckus,   "Keep your nose to the grindstone.  Your job is not to complain but to work so hard that the coach has no choice, that it would be embarrassing to keep sitting you.''  

 

I tell him over and over again, how proud I am that he's not letting the mis-match between the words of the coach and the deeds of the coach stand in his way or to stop him from preparing, all the while trying to get him to learn to just stay within himself.

 

 But what I'm not going to do is say,  "Hey you know that mismatch between the coach's  "no entitlement talk" and the what he actually does?  Don't take note of that.  The coach is a grand guy, who would never talk out of two sides of his mouth.  You know all the players who were ready to quit and all those parents who are upset and the  AD and the Principal who are contemplating whether to bring the guy back next year?  They are all just playing the victim.  The coach is all wise and all knowing.    I'm not going to say that.  Don't think that means that either he or I are playing the victim.

 

Indeed, we're pretty much doing the opposite.  We're not judging his worth by the coach's estimation.  We've got too many people who believe in the kid to let the coach's opinion be dispositive.  

The coach does not need to be all wise and knowing for you to play the victim, as you are continuing to do. One does not require the other.

Kid definitely responded the wrong way. Let himself get taken out of his natural game -- which is free and easy, but extremely intense.   Immaturity.  Also a very bad fit between  coaches (old) motivational style and the kid.  

 

Coach is a jerk because he preaches one thing, but practices another.  He made a HUGE deal of "no entitlement"   "open competition"   "you make out the line-up" all pre-season.  When the losing starting (which nobody expected, given the talent on this team)  he seemed to have pushed the panic button, and rode some guys (both rising guys and returning guys of whom he expected more) REALLy hard, in a way to which they didn't respond well.  Ugly meeting was a result. 

Well, so much for this earlier comment:

"Mostly what I do is pay the bills.   I let the coaches do the coaching.   Far too many of them for me to try to do their job."

Do you attend all the practices too?

Actually, that's a darned good thing.    

 

This kid was cut his freshman year.  (MAny are called but few are chosen in our program). Usually that is the kiss of death.   Most who are cut, are done for good.    Fortunately for him he was only 14 at the time.  During HS season travel ball shuts down in California.  You know what this kid did?  He refused to quit.  Kept playing with a 14U travel team his frosh year.  But he did more than that.  He worked really hard with a strength and condition coach, a defensive skills coach, and a hitting coach.  He and his strength and conditioning coach would work out for five hours on weekends. Run hills.  lift weights, etc. 

 

He tried out again the following year.  Made the team, was singled out by the varsity coach as an example to all the guys he was about to cut.  "We cut X his freshman year. But he was honest about his weaknesses, and went to work, and now he is an outstanding player for us."  

 

That matters to a kid like this one,  cause getting cut almost destroyed his self-belief.  He has a really hard time fully believing.  But all those people that he worked with -- and worked with for endless hours -- saw something him him. Saw more in him then he sees in himself  

 

So your "uh oh" is completely off base.   This is among the humblest, most self-effacing kid you will ever meet.   THere is no ounce of the victim in him.  

 

And by the way, several of the guys who were kept over him that year, are now out of baseball.  

 

Turns of the JV coach, who made the decisions, was accepting money under the table to play certain guys -- all of whom were part of his travel ball empire..

 

Ugly situation. 

 

HS baseball in this state is full of that sort of crap.  So again, it's not as simple as "if you complain, you are playing the victims."  Again, we don't complain.  We size up reality and then go to work. 

I don't know what you are talking about.  THe ugly meeting was a players and coaches meeting in which they all had at it over their frustration with the coach.  no parents involved. 

With everything you have posted in this thread, you don't know what I am talking about?

Of course you do. You know too much, as you have posted about the meeting, you know, the ugly one.

Well we all know about the meeting.  Our kids told us about the meeting.  Not sure I get you point.  "So how was practice today, son? "  "Well, we didn't actually have practice, we had the most intense and heated meeting." 

The picture you continue to paint is one of a complete disaster - with you at the center.  What a mess.

It is a mess.  Really.  But I'm just a bystander.  So mostly is my kid.  

Another major distinction: our son was just a grinder who never heard how extraordinarily talented he was. Guess he didn't have too much smoke blowing so our son and Dad never even thought about "extraordinarily talented."

What a huge weight gets put on the shoulders of a player and Dad when Dad hears "extraordinarily talented" as opposed to "grinder."

I guess I can better understand how the parent of an "extraordinarily talented" player becomes and translates information into being a victim after all the posts with you today.

Look, I did get your main point.  Coaches are not gods.  They are not perfect.  I totally agree.  But, you are not getting the point everyone else is trying to make.  Nothing is perfect.  Arm is sore.  The BP pitcher throws too slow.  It's too hot.  The umpire is terrible - screwed me on that call.  My on-base is higher than his - I should be starting.  The gym is too far from home.  The other team is too good/sucks.  Its too hard to focus on the game when I have AP exams next week.  Coach likes seniors better.  My travel coach says I should be starting on my HS team.  I'm playing scout ball so that means I'm better - HS coach must not know what he is doing.  My hitting instructor is an ex-Milb/MLB/D1 player and I'm not starting - HS coach must not know what he is doing.  HS Coach puts too much pressure on me.  

 

Your dialog in this thread includes many of the things I've listed.  They may be true or they may not.  Doesn't matter.  The point is that you are verbalizing much of this with your kid and likely with other parents, instructors, travel coaches, etc..  Your actions speak louder than the words you use to advise your kid.  Eventually, your kid is going to be more likely to follow your lead and take the same thought process.  He will be more inclined to buy into all the reasons why he ultimately can't succeed instead of focusing just on what he needs to do to succeed.  I know, you said he doesn't make excuses and has unbelievable work ethic.  I just hope you are open-minded enough to see that you may need to make some adjustments in order for him to stay on that path.

 

Also, you are doing your son, the other parents and the program no good by being one of the participants in the coach bashing.  I know.  You said you never said anything to the coach.  But you'd have a hard time convincing me you haven't had the same dialog with others that you've had here.  Regardless of whether the coach is any good or not, what do you think happens when there is a vocal, non-supportive environment among the parents or a group of the parents?  Are we enhancing or detracting from our kids HS baseball experience?  How are you going to feel when your son is a starting senior, very good player but off to a slow start.  Coach supports him but parents of some of the sophomore studs are being very vocal in their complaints that your kid is still in the line-up?

 

Another "red flag" is you acute familiarity with the stats of the kids your son is competing with.  It's OK to know what you are up against but using the line listing of other kids'  stats as argument that your son is getting the short end of the stick is just not a good place to be.  You need to learn to let it go, man.  My son just finished his college season with the leading BA and OBP on his team.  Neither he or I would even begin to suggest that he is/was the best player or deserving of more PT than he got, playing behind returning starters.  He respected and supported them while, at the same time, fought for his opportunities.

 

You come off as a really intelligent guy and a very caring, proud dad.  Based on your info, your son must be a heck of a player.  My experience is that some who fit your profile feel confident that they know more than everyone else and it is more important that their point is made and some are still open to good advice.  I'm hoping, for your son's sake, you are the latter.  

 

BTW, infielddad is another who warrants a sharp ear. 

So ... sluggerdad, if I may, let me try to recap here:

 

- Your son is a junior, not starting on varsity.

- He plays for a coach who's biased toward returning starters -- all of whom obviously started on varsity as juniors.

- Your son was given an opportunity, and choked (it happens. I'm a Cards fan; don't get me started).

- After struggling, the team is turning things around.

- You believe your son is destined for greatness in baseball, and both of you have been told as much by men you pay for lessons

- Your son is super-intuitive, and knows BS when he hears it, so you try to help him by acknowledging the coach's BS - while encouraging him to keep working hard.

- You see absolutely no possible cause and effect between your approach and your son's struggles.

 

That pretty much it?

 

So as of THIS DAY: April 26, 2014, how's that working out for your son?

Destined for greatness?  Are you kidding?  Where did I say that?  Certainly I don't think that.  And my kid isn't the kind of kid capable of thinking that about himself.  I have no idea what his true upside is and neither does he.  But you know what, he's willing to work really hard to find out.  

Intuitive? yes definitely.

Biased toward returning starters?  Generally yes. Does he claim to be?  Generally no.  IS the mismatch bothersome.  A bit.  Does it stand in the way of the kid doing his thing.  Not at all. 

 

Look, I'm not the one on a hobby horse.  I was just offering a counter-point to your  "High School Players are not victims rhetoric."   For some reason you keep claiming I have a victim mentality and am enforcing that on my kid somehow.    

 

My only point is that noting the facts, when they are the facts, doesn't mean you are a victim.  You seem to disagree.  Fine.  I think enough has been said about this. So I'm done.  Hope you are too.  

 

You seem like a decent well meaning sort.  

 

You're done?  Good.  

Actually, Cabbagedad, there are some pretty vocal naysayers among our group of parents. It's an ugly scene.  Has been for a couple of years.  Bunch of seniors quit last year when  the new guy came in.   Bunch of other younger players stayed, but several of them hate the guy.   I get where they are coming from. I never join in these conversations.  I do listen and nod my head.  But I try to keep head low.  Not because I don't agree with them. I do.   But can't see that it would do any good.   AD and Principal have heard an earful.  Not from me, though.  But if asked, i'd confirm some of the stuff.   I grant you it's a bad situation all around.  I'm not trying to solve or deny it,  Just cope with it.  GIven our situation, I took some umbrage at the "HS players are not victims rhetoric of this thread."  should have left it alone obviously. 

I guess you're not "done."  Dangit!  

SluggerDad - Welcome to the HSBBW.  FWIW, I hear what you're saying and you make a lot of completely valid points.  I appreciate you holding your ground and hope you don't feel "piled on" -- unfortunately, there's a steady supply of righteous posing and moralizing that goes on here from certain quarters.  You get wise to considering the sources pretty quickly.

 

That said, and again FWIW, I agree with where Cabbagedad is coming from and also think Infielddad is giving you good guidance as well.  I know from my own experience that it's sometimes useful... though often difficult... to take a step back from the frustration and try to gain some more positive perspective so that you can help your son make some lemonade from the lemons. This site can be a great source for exactly that sort of perspective and experience.  Hope the situation turns for you and also that you're player has a good summer.  Hang tough!

Hello everyone:

My original post about my sons high school situation may have sparked this thread and its no doubt a difficult situation if your kid is a serious ball player and not really actively a part of the HS program (either by being on the team and not playing, or not being on the team)

That being said for what it's worth my son is making his own path less followed if you will and making the best of things...so there is ways to keep playing and enjoying the game...

He spent all spring refining his swing, hitting only wood, lifting regularly, rested his arm, worked in speed and strength with a trainer regularly...

In addition he has played in my men's league preseason scrimmages to get reps in...joined the Mexican men's league, and anywhere he is offered play time on travel teams that are short players...

He's helping coach a youth team, raised his GPA, and just did well on the ACT (well enough to get into IVY league or academies).  He is now well positioned for Academic showcases this summer in hopes to get noticed...

Tryouts are in 2 weeks for travel ball and he has an opportunity to double dip and play both 16u and 17u at PG for a reputable organization...

He also found out that since his HS has declared he will never play for them he can get a release from his HS coach to play for another HS as long as they are not in the same league...

Out of all of this I think the best thing that happened was the day he came home and said "Dad, I finally realized I've spent the last three years trying to prove something, and today I just went out and played to have fun"

That was a great moment to hear him say that after a long tough road...

I know his experience is not the norm, but I like that he doesn't let anyone tell him he can't and he has a plan and the drive to keep in the game...

Glad to hear and, if you truly are not engaging in those discussions anywhere except for venting here, I'm happy to be wrong on this part. 

 

I'm also glad Soylent chimed in with some balance.  We (certainly, myself included) do tend to take the righteous stand here, but I like to think it is with best intentions - specifically to provide the benefits he mentioned.  I do think you are still missing some of the points that are being made here and hope you will go back in a day or two and re-read with a different mindset.  There is a reason these folks have taken this much time to communicate with you.