Joining LeBron James, Bryce Harper, and a few others to be on an SI cover while in high school:
www.latimes.com/sports/highsch...-20170425-story.html
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Complete stud. Seeing him in person last year reminded me of the firs time I saw Bryce Harper in person - couldn't help but think that "if this guy stays healthy, he's odds on to be a HOF'er." Watching him hit 8 straight out of Petco in the HR Derby - most in the upper deck of left field - was eye-opening. Then when he took the mound and his first pitch was 97...
This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Good question. It will be fun to watch play out. It is more than unfair to compare Hunter to Bryce Harper. Harper was doing absolutely absurd things (hitting 450+ foot HR's off of college pitchers at the age of 16/17 for instance) when he was still very raw and completely unpolished.
Players like Harper & Trout are like Mantle & Mays, i.e. once in a generation type talents who are way above the talent pool.
I haven't seen enough of Hunter to comment on where he is at talent wise. I would suspect that since he's throwing 102, any team that drafts him is going to make him a pitcher only
3and2Fastball posted:2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Good question. It will be fun to watch play out. It is more than unfair to compare Hunter to Bryce Harper. Harper was doing absolutely absurd things (hitting 450+ foot HR's off of college pitchers at the age of 16/17 for instance) when he was still very raw and completely unpolished.
Players like Harper & Trout are like Mantle & Mays, i.e. once in a generation type talents who are way above the talent pool.
I haven't seen enough of Hunter to comment on where he is at talent wise. I would suspect that since he's throwing 102, any team that drafts him is going to make him a pitcher only
No, it's a fair comparison. By the way, when Harper was 16/17, he was anything but "raw." The kid was developed and ready to go by then. HG is one of those guys. I hate the "once in a generation" tag. I mean, even you list Mantle & Mays. Since they were contemporaries, it's hard to say they were once in a generation. 
We can agree to disagree. I saw Harper play alot at 16/17 and have seen a ton of video on him. He was not the polished athlete mechanically that he became in his rookie year of MLB and even more so now. From the limited amount I've seen of Greene he looks more polished mechanically than Harper at the same age but less pure explosive athleticism. It is possible that nobody in history (including Babe Ruth) had as much explosive athleticism at age 16/17 as Harper. I just think the comparison is really unfair to Hunter, and sets up unfair expectations
I will be really really suprised if Greene is ever anywhere near Harper/Trout offensively, and again I think it is unfair to compare him that way. I could see him really developing as a pitcher. But again I haven't seen enough of Greene to know for sure.
Admittedly the only info I have to base an opinion on is what I have read & the video material on PG. Never seen him in person. When I look at the swing on PG it does not appear to be even in the zip code of a Harper or even Clint Frazier's explosiveness at that age. Also, curious to note that there is no posted 60 time or mention of it anywhere that I can find. He is probably below average there. I see a toe plate in the immediate future. Kid clearly has a special arm & makeup.
He's been bred to be a phenom like Harper, but his talent is closer to Derek Jeter at the same age. Kinda raw but you can see great potential. The attitude and competitiveness is exactly what you want in a player.
He is very special. IMO he would be an early pick as a player and the first pick as a pitcher.
Could still be the first pick as a shortstop because of the fall back plan. You always look for the unusual stuff when talking about the very best. Harper, Upton, Trout, all showed very unusual things. Hunter Green is very unusual. That doesn't guarantee gigantic success.
I will definitely be rooting for the kid, that is for sure
2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Can you elaborate on him being "made?"
3and2Fastball posted:I will definitely be rooting for the kid, that is for sure
+1
PGStaff posted:He is very special. IMO he would be an early pick as a player and the first pick as a pitcher.
Could still be the first pick as a shortstop because of the fall back plan. You always look for the unusual stuff when talking about the very best. Harper, Upton, Trout, all showed very unusual things. Hunter Green is very unusual. That doesn't guarantee gigantic success.
IMO, whoever drafts him will draft him as a pitcher.
hshuler posted:2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Can you elaborate on him being "made?"
Yeah, cause I wanna make me one, too.
roothog66 posted:hshuler posted:2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Can you elaborate on him being "made?"
Yeah, cause I wanna make me one, too.
Great minds, Root - great minds!
So having a high drive to succeed, athleticism, and supportive parents is bad?
I wonder what the story is on his 60 time? The SI story made a reference to it, too, that scouts had made snarky comments about his 60 time which motivated Hunter to work on it.
For reference, Harper & Trout both ran 6.4 60's as teenagers
Jordan Adell is another very intriguing prospect: 6.19 60, 96 mph arm, 99 mph exit velocity, plus plus athleticism
Hunter is shut down from pitching for the rest of the season (except bull pens)....
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/...down-from-the-mound/
Saw Jordon Adell at area codes! He's impressive!
Just enjoying the last 4 weeks with my kid who's graduating and leaving!!! Wah!!!
Momof#24 posted:Saw Jordon Adell at area codes! He's impressive!
Just enjoying the last 4 weeks with my kid who's graduating and leaving!!! Wah!!!
Congrats and best wishes to you guys!
keewart posted:Hunter is shut down from pitching for the rest of the season (except bull pens)....
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/...down-from-the-mound/
Purely out of keeping his arm healthy though. He isn't injured. Smart move I think.
Edited to comment on this quote from the article:
"It's a little disappointing," one scouting director said. "We work in the ultimate team sport. How did the other kids on his team react?
"We've not seen anyone do this before, so I guess the word we would use is surprised. I think most of baseball would have liked to see him continue to pitch. What does this mean for the team that takes him? It will take them quite a while to get him ready to pitch. It's very unusual, that's for sure."
Get used to it. Kid is throwing triple digits and looking at a multi-million dollar signing bonus in an era where Tommy John is an epidemic. You might not have seen it before, but I bet you will see it again & again moving forward. I strongly approve of the decision.
I think it is fairly safe to say, it doesn't matter what most think. He will be gone before they get their pick. Then again strange things happen at times in the draft.
He's almost certainly throwing bullpens and staying in shape. Just not competing anymore.
3and2Fastball posted:2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Good question. It will be fun to watch play out. It is more than unfair to compare Hunter to Bryce Harper. Harper was doing absolutely absurd things (hitting 450+ foot HR's off of college pitchers at the age of 16/17 for instance) when he was still very raw and completely unpolished.
Players like Harper & Trout are like Mantle & Mays, i.e. once in a generation type talents who are way above the talent pool.
I haven't seen enough of Hunter to comment on where he is at talent wise. I would suspect that since he's throwing 102, any team that drafts him is going to make him a pitcher only
Almost all the prospect guys see him as a PO. He has great raw power too and reportedly good actions at SS but I read his speed is only average (likely not enough for pro level shortstop) and there is some swing an miss.
He would still be a good hitting prospect but in pitching he basically is a Strasburg kind of prospect so the decision is kind of easy for most teams. I also read some reports that like the bat but most like the arm more.
Btw I read that he would prefer falling to 3 to san diego for some reasons like their throwing programs and also the geographic proximity to his home, but that probably won't happen.
hshuler posted:2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Can you elaborate on him being "made?"
When I think of someone being "made", I think of Todd Marinovich.
Goin_yard posted:hshuler posted:2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Can you elaborate on him being "made?"
When I think of someone being "made", I think of Todd Marinovich.
I have to admit that I had the exact same thought.
Thank you!
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Goin_yard posted:hshuler posted:2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Can you elaborate on him being "made?"
When I think of someone being "made", I think of Todd Marinovich.
Some kids these days are going through a much more intense training regimen than Marinovich did. They have strict diet and supplements plans, with weight lifting and speed/agility work. If you threw in some heavy bag and pads they'd be training like an MMA fighter. Every part of their training is geared towards maximizing their potential. Hunter's been doing velocity work with Alan Jaegar since he was 7. Potential is the key. Reaching that before you turn 18, like Hunter and Harper, that's more than just being a phenom. No doubt HG goes #1. He's already expressed interest in being drafted and claims money is not an issue for him.
Money is not an issue for me either...but I would take first draft pick money to skip college! lol
This kid is gifted with the ability to throw the baseball and hit bombs....I hope he continues to work on his game....baseball needs guys like this on the front page of SI to help spark interest. This can only be a good thing if he speeds thru to the Majors before the general public forgets his name like Strasburg and Harper. Nats pushed them into the Bigs fast and it has paid off. The team has used them in promotions and their talents have helped propel the Nationals into the playoffs several times.
Some kids demand that money, as a status symbol or because their agent said so. In 2000, HS RHP Matt Harrington (whos parents could barely afford to pay the electric bill) wanted a $4.95 million bonus as the 7th pick (the #1 pick got $3m). The Rockies made him 5-6 offers over $3m and he turned them all down, including a package worth $5.3m. He got drafted 3 more times and refused to sign each time due to money, while getting shelled year after year in indy ball. Eventually signed a FA contract for pennies and was told to pack his bags after spring training.
Speaking of Matt Harrington... we often hear people say that if you're good enough they will find you.
Well Matt Harrington's HS team had another pitcher on the same team. He wasn't drafted and we never even heard of him until he surfaced after HS. Apparently the scouts flocked in to watch Harrington pitch, but left without seeing this kid throw. Harrington never pitched in the Big Leagues but his HS teammate (Dana Eveland) did for 11 years. Hear is one of the more surprising things we ever saw at a showcase. Read the report.
https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=112447
Most players who reach higher levels of baseball are doing many things to excel including personal trainers, hitting, pitching coaches etc. Even with all that you have to have several other things. Talent, athleticism( everyone is more athletic higher up u get) natural athleticism is important and there are many that it just is there, work ethic, mental make up and luck. We see many first rounders never make it. Its competitive.
When my son played in the minors he told me many times how good many of these guys are and many of those arent playing anymore.
This player looks exciting to watch I love seeing these type of players develop and see what happens.
One of the things I like about Green is he is a one sport athlete. I understand the reasons to encourage kids to play multiple sports, especially prior to high school, but there are plenty of one sport athletes who have made it far in Baseball. Bryce Harper is another, right?
2016Dad posted:This is what happens when you have a driven kid, athleticism, parents who have the resources to channel that drive to the best private coaches and trainers and keep him in front of the media. To me he seems more "made" than a natural phenom that was discovered. He has put up impressive numbers in showcases, but will it transfer into real games at a high level?
Made?........kid throws 102 mph on the right side. That's not 'Made' w/ media hype or by a baseball dad
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I understand the point you're trying to make , but in my opinion its a bit insulting to the player.
Let me clearly point out that if you throw 102 mph in a one horse town in Montana.....THEY will find you . That IS a natural phenom and the player WILL be discovered
Pro ball doesn't mess around. And when MLB scouts from 30 teams along w/ GM's and AGM's from these teams project a kid at the number #1 slot in the draft......Media hype or the kids dad have absolutely nothing to do with it.
I see the formula as something along these lines. First, there obviously are genetic gifts relating to size & fast twitch muscle %. A TON of people are born with these gifts, few are ever heard from. You add dedicated & solid parenting, nutrition, proper coaching, top level speed, strength & conditioning instruction, pro level pitching, hitting & fielding instruction.
Then you must have the mental makeup at a young age to engage in the effort & time necessary to do these extra actions, in addition to what all the others do with regular games & practice. Then, possibly, with some luck & avoiding injury, do you have someone like this who can throw it 102 before turning 18. To call him a "natural" or something along those lines is to completely ignore the facts. The work & determination of this kid to go above & beyond what others are willing to do & have parents & a support system that can afford to sacrifice the $$ & time to make that happen are the difference.
You guys are tough. A 17yr old that has broke the 100mph mark! Not a phenom??? Not a natural? Made??? Coached?? Groomed???
How can you NOT put this kid into the phenom bucket?
"A TON of people born with these gifts." MAYBE, lets do the math. 1 ton = 2000 lbs average weight of 20-29 yr old male is 168 lbs. 2000/168 = 12
Let's say 12 boys a year are born with these gifts. About 65,000,000 a year are born 12/65,000,000= .0000184615%
That seems about right. 12 boys a year are born with the gift to be able to throw over 100 mph. About a TON in weight as adult men. =-)
He is a "phenom," no doubt. "Phenom: a person who is outstandingly talented or admired. Especially an up and comer." If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS.
In addition. 6'4" & athletically gifted in HS is not all that uncommon. You are suggesting that the arm was a magical gift from heaven. I disagree. It was there to be cultivated as are many that go uncultivated. The circumstances aligned for him & he has taken full advantage, to his great credit.
Steve A. posted:He is a "phenom," no doubt. "Phenom: a person who is outstandingly talented or admired. Especially an up and comer." If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS.
In addition. 6'4" & athletically gifted in HS is not all that uncommon. You are suggesting that the arm was a magical gift from heaven. I disagree. It was there to be cultivated as are many that go uncultivated. The circumstances aligned for him & he has taken full advantage, to his great credit.
This is incorrect. Pitching lessons by the best guys available might give you maybe a 3-4 mph jump...maybe . More like 2 mph. A stride adjustment . Maybe some weighted balls , Long toss. But you do not throw 102 from coaching ......That notion is absolutely incorrect.
Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:He is a "phenom," no doubt. "Phenom: a person who is outstandingly talented or admired. Especially an up and comer." If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS.
In addition. 6'4" & athletically gifted in HS is not all that uncommon. You are suggesting that the arm was a magical gift from heaven. I disagree. It was there to be cultivated as are many that go uncultivated. The circumstances aligned for him & he has taken full advantage, to his great credit.
This is incorrect. Pitching lessons by the best guys available might give you maybe a 3-4 mph jump...maybe . More like 2 mph. A stride adjustment . Maybe some weighted balls , Long toss. But you do not throw 102 from coaching ......That notion is absolutely incorrect.
No, coaching can absolutely do it! I can get ANY kid to 102mph with my patented, secret weighted ball/long toss/belt program. I GUARANTEE it! 11 yo Joey from Baltimore was throwing 45mph when he came to me. By the end of the summer he was SITTING 101mph!!! Imagine. This can be your kid! All I need is a $1,000 deposit and I ONLY charge a paltry $250/HR! That's it! A bargain when you consider the bonuses they're paying now in the draft. So, just bring him to me. I live in a van...down by the river!
Steve A. posted:Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
This is what you said:
" If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS"
This is incorrect . And yes I read the article. My son who is currently a NCCA D1 LHP played w/ Hunter '14 thru '16 ......I know the player. Very well
roothog66 posted:StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:He is a "phenom," no doubt. "Phenom: a person who is outstandingly talented or admired. Especially an up and comer." If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS.
In addition. 6'4" & athletically gifted in HS is not all that uncommon. You are suggesting that the arm was a magical gift from heaven. I disagree. It was there to be cultivated as are many that go uncultivated. The circumstances aligned for him & he has taken full advantage, to his great credit.
This is incorrect. Pitching lessons by the best guys available might give you maybe a 3-4 mph jump...maybe . More like 2 mph. A stride adjustment . Maybe some weighted balls , Long toss. But you do not throw 102 from coaching ......That notion is absolutely incorrect.
No, coaching can absolutely do it! I can get ANY kid to 102mph with my patented, secret weighted ball/long toss/belt program. I GUARANTEE it! 11 yo Joey from Baltimore was throwing 45mph when he came to me. By the end of the summer he was SITTING 101mph!!! Imagine. This can be your kid! All I need is a $1,000 deposit and I ONLY charge a paltry $250/HR! That's it! A bargain when you consider the bonuses they're paying now in the draft. So, just bring him to me. I live in a van...down by the river!
Is that you Kyle B??
StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
This is what you said:
" If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS"
This is incorrect . And yes I read the article. My son who is currently a NCCA D1 LHP played w/ Hunter '14 thru '16 ......I know the player. Very well
So you are basically telling me that you can toss all of the kids training, Woolforth, extra work, parents & support & he would still be at 102 by simply waking up in the morning & going to practice? Is this what you are suggesting?
One of the things I find impressive about Greene is that he was topping out at 92 as a rising junior (range of 86 - 92; see https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353210) -- that's a high number, sure, but there are quite a few kids like that every year-- and he added 10 mph in the subsequent 18 months! Obviously not satisfied with being very good; trying, instead, to be great.
Steve A. posted:StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
This is what you said:
" If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS"
This is incorrect . And yes I read the article. My son who is currently a NCCA D1 LHP played w/ Hunter '14 thru '16 ......I know the player. Very well
So you are basically telling me that you can toss all of the kids training, Woolforth, extra work, parents & support & he would still be at 102 by simply waking up in the morning & going to practice? Is this what you are suggesting?
What I'm saying is that he's naturally gifted. An amazing talent. A legit 2 way guy at the NCAA level....Pro ball's biggest problem with him is figuring out 'How much' and whether he goes as a pitcher or hitter.
Parents and coaches don't make those guys. They help . But they do not create that
We have had a chance to get to know Hunter very well. He is the total package, very unusual in a very good way.
His ceiling is extremely high and his chances of reaching it are excellent. Is he a natural? Absolutely! Is he a hard worker and dedicated? Absolutely! Does he come from a great family? You bet! His makeup is off the charts.
I hope he becomes the superstar we think he will be. He is going to be really good for baseball. Hoping the Twins pick him with the first pick. If so, he will be in Cedar Rapids playing at Perfect Game Field, probably next year.
2019Dad posted:One of the things I find impressive about Greene is that he was topping out at 92 as a rising junior (range of 86 - 92; see https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353210) -- that's a high number, sure, but there are quite a few kids like that every year-- and he added 10 mph in the subsequent 18 months! Obviously not satisfied with being very good; trying, instead, to be great.
He ate Cheerios for those 18 months. This was the difference. Nothing to do with dynamic training, yoga or any additional effort. It was just magic. A lightning bolt also hit his right arm in the offseason.
PGStaff posted:We have had a chance to get to know Hunter very well. He is the total package, very unusual in a very good way.
His ceiling is extremely high and his chances of reaching it are excellent. Is he a natural? Absolutely! Is he a hard worker and dedicated? Absolutely! Does he come from a great family? You bet! His makeup is off the charts.
I hope he becomes the superstar we think he will be. He is going to be really good for baseball. Hoping the Twins pick him with the first pick. If so, he will be in Cedar Rapids playing at Perfect Game Field, probably next year.
.....Let the church say Amen
PGStaff posted:We have had a chance to get to know Hunter very well. He is the total package, very unusual in a very good way.
His ceiling is extremely high and his chances of reaching it are excellent. Is he a natural? Absolutely! Is he a hard worker and dedicated? Absolutely! Does he come from a great family? You bet! His makeup is off the charts.
I hope he becomes the superstar we think he will be. He is going to be really good for baseball. Hoping the Twins pick him with the first pick. If so, he will be in Cedar Rapids playing at Perfect Game Field, probably next year.
My only point is simply this. I dislike the term natural. I feel it takes away from the work & misleads people about what it really took for this kid to become who he is. If you subtract the "hard worker and dedicated; great family and makeup" from this equation, are we still talking about this kid on the cover of SI or not? Absolutely no way.
I suggest his will & makeup have put him over the top. To simply focus on his physical gifts misses the real story. That's all. You have seen enough with tremendous talent & gifts go nowhere to understand what I am talking about.
2019Dad posted:One of the things I find impressive about Greene is that he was topping out at 92 as a rising junior (range of 86 - 92; see https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353210) -- that's a high number, sure, but there are quite a few kids like that every year-- and he added 10 mph in the subsequent 18 months! Obviously not satisfied with being very good; trying, instead, to be great.
A couple of things.
1. He is young for his class, summer of 2015 he just turned 16 and eligible to play 15U.
2. I believe that was game speed. Touching 92 in the game as an eligible 15U! Insane/ - maybe a handful of players IN THE WORLD.
3. 92 game speed, he could more than likely have let it fly in a BP and put up a higher number at that time.
4. I am guessing the 102 is from a bull pen.
5. I believe someone recently posted him cruising at 96-97 in a game.
All off the charts incredible.
I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Greene threw 93 mph at the age of 14 according to this article
https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/04...ter-greene-mlb-draft
Steve A. posted:I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Do you believe you could have dropped off any random adopted baby boy into those households and came out with the same outcomes?
I don't think we should take what we read as the gospel. I remember the Bryce Harper story in SI years ago. Bryce Harper, Hunter Green and others before them were extremely unique and worthy of a lot of hype. Sometimes that hype gets exaggerated to make the story even more amazing.
I wasn't at the game but our guy got Hunter at 101 in the game this spring. If I remember right he topped out around 97 at our events last year. He did put on a display winning the HR derby at Petco. I think he hit something like 7 in a row easily out of Petco which is one of the hardest places to hit HRs in MLB.
I very much believe in natural talent. At the same time I can understand Steve A's view. Talent needs to be refined in order for it to reach its potential. Natural ability alone is not enough. It has always been my belief that no one ever reaches their "full" potential. some just come much closer than others. You see there is no way of ever knowing what someone's full potential is.
So Hunter has very high potential that he was born with. He has also worked hard to reach that potential. And I think he will continue that path, knowing that he can always improve.
real green posted:Steve A. posted:I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Do you believe you could have dropped off any random adopted baby boy into those households and came out with the same outcomes?
Nope. Steve A, we might know who Mike Trout is anyway if inmate #087642 at Millville was his dad, so long as someone saw his physical gifts and helped him to develop those gifts (i.e., if Jeff Trout was his neighbor/uncle/coach).
It takes these things: work ethic + natural athletic ability + head/heart for the game + luck. The kid himself can only control one of those things.
It is a fascinating question. Nature vs nurture. Given the exact same genetics without the same growing up environment, I would think Harper & Trout would still be pro players. Trout especially. Would they be superstars? Hard to say. Maybe they would have found the coaching somewhere else. Different sport but Lebron James sure didn't have a Dad that pushed him & taught him the game
To throw 100 you need both talent and hard work. There are a few guys who can throw 90 plus with just playing catch and a few push ups but those guys are very rare, most guys have to train extremely hard.
Usain bolt is super talented but he trains at least 5 hours every day. He wouldn't wun that fast if he did 5 sprints twice a week. But likewise I wouldn't run as fast if he did his training regimen.
Pitchers are athletes and athletes are both very talented and they work very hard. Harper and greene are both exceptional talents that worked very hard since they were 10.
In short of course training plays a big role, otherwise MJ and tebow would have become really great mlb players.
I find these kind of post somewhat amusing. "He hit 93 at 14" or "he hit the ball 450' at 16". You know what that means? He matured really early, nothing more. He's not going to be throwing 126 mph at 25. Look at Harper, I think I saw he hit a ball like 500+ at 15 of something like that. What's he hitting the ball now? His longest this year has been 441.
So the kid is going to make the show no doubt. Might be a HOF'er, but right now there are like 70+ pitchers hitting 100+. So it seems to me when he gets there he's going to be "another face in the crowd".
There are limits to what the human body can do. It can only throw a baseball so hard. It can only hit a baseball so far. There's a ceiling, some people just get there faster than others.
Odell Beckham Jr threw a softball, idk, 80+? I don't think I could throw a softball 60mph. He got a contract offer immediately: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/n...eague-baseball-team/
That's crazy considering he didn't even play HS baseball. He might've played 12U baseball or family softball, or he practiced pitching for a week before that game. So yeah I think you actually have to be at least an elite athlete to cross over and immediately show some potential.
Regarding the hard work as a teenager: does that shift the ceiling of a pitcher or does it just shift the max Velo to an earlier age? Obviously many would be out of baseball if they didn't work hard so they need to to even get to college ball but in greenes case he probably would throw 93 with a relatively "light" training schedule.
If he then did get drafted and works hard for 3 years would he then have the same velocity at 22 as a Greene who started working hard on his Velo since age 12?
Dominik85 posted:Regarding the hard work as a teenager: does that shift the ceiling of a pitcher or does it just shift the max Velo to an earlier age? Obviously many would be out of baseball if they didn't work hard so they need to to even get to college ball but in greenes case he probably would throw 93 with a relatively "light" training schedule.
If he then did get drafted and works hard for 3 years would he then have the same velocity at 22 as a Greene who started working hard on his Velo since age 12?
Again, excellent questions and hard to say for sure. I don't know if he would hit 93 with relatively light training. That to me is a real stretch. Depends entirely on how we define "light" and how much we attribute to genetics and how much we attribute to training.
I think it is more likely he would be throwing mid to high 80's at 17 with light training, and he could've been more at risk for injury taking that approach. From all accounts, his delivery is flawless, which attributes not only to his velocity but also his health.
Anyways, good food for thought
With light training I don't mean no sports at all but maybe something like lifting twice a week and just team practices plus maybe a little long toss. Obviously if he just sat on the couch and did 10 push ups once a week he wouldn't throw 90.
MomLW posted:real green posted:Steve A. posted:I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Do you believe you could have dropped off any random adopted baby boy into those households and came out with the same outcomes?
Nope. Steve A, we might know who Mike Trout is anyway if inmate #087642 at Millville was his dad, so long as someone saw his physical gifts and helped him to develop those gifts (i.e., if Jeff Trout was his neighbor/uncle/coach).
It takes these things: work ethic + natural athletic ability + head/heart for the game + luck. The kid himself can only control one of those things.
Absolutely agree! I simply feel that there are no true "naturals" in baseball. The game is too difficult. Look up what the "original natural" Ted Williams had to say when someone referred to him as a natural. Hint; he did not agree.
I will give one possible exception: Bo Jackson.
Dominik85 posted:With light training I don't mean no sports at all but maybe something like lifting twice a week and just team practices plus maybe a little long toss. Obviously if he just sat on the couch and did 10 push ups once a week he wouldn't throw 90.
Hey! That's my training regimen. Well, everything except the pushups. And the lifting. And the longtoss. OK, I just sit on the couch.
KilroyJ posted:Dominik85 posted:With light training I don't mean no sports at all but maybe something like lifting twice a week and just team practices plus maybe a little long toss. Obviously if he just sat on the couch and did 10 push ups once a week he wouldn't throw 90.
Hey! That's my training regimen. Well, everything except the pushups.
Hey! We must not go to the same gym.
Natural talent does exist, I see it many times every year. Sure hard work and other things can help a player come closer to his potential, but his potential is always limited by something. That something is usually natural talent.
Hunter is a natural, no doubt in my mind. He is 17 and can throw 100 mph. Of course he has worked hard and had the advantage of good training and has played against the very best competition. Give some other kid all the same advantages and he might throw 80 mph. Hunter hit something like 7 in a row out of Petco. Give some other kid the same exact advantages and training and they might never hit one out of that ball park.
Baseball is a game that requires different types of natural talent. So some of the most talented don't always end up being the best. Instincts, feel for the game, thought process are all based on natural ability to a degree. You can educate all you want, but some things can't be taught. In the end it becomes a combination of physical ability and mental ability that determines the outcome.
So in my opinion, natural ability is very important and what you do with it is even more important.
Would never argue with Ted Williams, but didn't he have unusual advanced vision? Wouldn't that be considered natural? He had a natural ability over most others. To his point, he got the most out of his ability. It took more than great vision to hit like he did.
PGStaff posted:Natural talent does exist, I see it many times every year. Sure hard work and other things can help a player come closer to his potential, but his potential is always limited by something. That something is usually natural talent.
Hunter is a natural, no doubt in my mind. He is 17 and can throw 100 mph. Of course he has worked hard and had the advantage of good training and has played against the very best competition. Give some other kid all the same advantages and he might throw 80 mph. Hunter hit something like 7 in a row out of Petco. Give some other kid the same exact advantages and training and they might never hit one out of that ball park.
Baseball is a game that requires different types of natural talent. So some of the most talented don't always end up being the best. Instincts, feel for the game, thought process are all based on natural ability to a degree. You can educate all you want, but some things can't be taught. In the end it becomes a combination of physical ability and mental ability that determines the outcome.
So in my opinion, natural ability is very important and what you do with it is even more important.
Would never argue with Ted Williams, but didn't he have unusual advanced vision? Wouldn't that be considered natural? He had a natural ability over most others. To his point, he got the most out of his ability. It took more than great vision to hit like he did.
Do not disagree one bit. The great ones are naturally gifted, no doubt. Ted basically said that nobody, ever, swung the bat as much as he did to become the hitter he was & nobody, until then, put as much thought into the art of hitting as he did. He felt he was a made hitter all the way. Ted did have 20-10 vision. No doubt special but not crazy uncommon.
It would be crazy to ignore the fact that the "ceiling" of some special few is just so much greater than others, purely due to genetics. An excellent read on this very subject is "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. Well worth the read.
30-40 years ago you had perhaps 2 pitchers in the entire game who could throw 100. Nolan & JR Richard. Last year, in 2016, there were at least 24 pitchers in professional baseball who topped 100. Are there just more "naturals" being born than ever? Or, could it be, that perhaps the genie is out of the bottle & there are the same # of special arms per capita & the "secret formula" for elite velocity is now a known that can be attained by the "gifted" with dedication & a plan to get there. Read Michael Kopech's story on the quest to become the hardest thrower of all time..
http://www.baseballamerica.com...#CTwlxzhBE1ujEm2l.97
Over 15 years the avg MLB FB has increased 3.3mph. That's the effect of velocity training and various improved training methods (speed, explosiveness). Not a huge difference, but guys who were throwing 97-98 with gifted arms can hit 100 now with significantly more training.
Outfielders are also throwing 100mph or more. There's probably just as many (if not more) major and minor league OFers who can throw 100 from the OF
But has anyone seen the difference up close and personal? I remember what 80mph looked like the first time I saw it. At twilight (we didn't have lights) I could barely see the ball. 95mph? I couldn't see the ball at all, and I'd hear a loud whip as the ball cut through the air and when it hit the catchers mitt it sounded like a boxer hitting a heavy bag. Now when I look at a guy who's throwing 95 I can see and track the ball clearly, it cuts through the air with just a little bit of a whiz and the sound it makes when hitting the catchers mitt is underwhelming. Maybe the balls and gloves are different now.
I know a former Div 1 coach from back in the 80s-90s who has kept all of the old Radar Guns from back in the day. He claims the old school "Ray" gun registers a full 5-6mph less than the current Stalker & the old Jugs is 3-4mph less. In short, the new gun jacks up the readings in comparison to the old ones. Just what I was told & this is a very reliable guy.
On a side note, if you get a chance try to rent "Fastball" on Netflix. It details all of the methods used to measure velo going back to Walter Johnson, through Bob Feller, Nolan & up to Chapman & present day. In short, it claims Nolan's heater measured at the Astrodome on August 20, 1974 at 100.9 mph would register 108.5 mph with todays gun & be the fastest measured pitch ever.