huge upset in texas high school baseball

Tournament games are worthless barometers on how good a team really is.

By the 4th and 5th games, you are facing their JV starters.

Keller Dad

You lose you lose. If you are the better team for that period and have the depth you will win those late games.

Kellerdad

Good coaches don't let that happen-- they are prepared

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Kellerdad

Good coaches don't let that happen-- they are prepared

How do you figure? Tournaments mean nothing here. They are just pre season games allowing teams to come together.

They don't count towards your district record, which is the only thing that matters when it comes to playoff time.

It is very early in the season... It has also been very WET in SETexas. Many teams have not played their scrimmages and many were rained out last weekend in their first tournaments. I would say most teams are 2-3 weeks behind in being prepared. Throwing in a gym and hitting in a cage do not make up for practicing on a field.... Those should be web feet instead of cleats!!!!!!!!!

kellerman

How do I figure?

Any coach who does not go into a tournament wanting to win is sending the wrong message-- You play to win even if it is a wiffle ball tournament in your own backyear.

The coach should be prepared to take it to the limit and have his team prepared as well--

You dont play to lose--you play to win--every time out

Every game counts --every game is part of the development and learning process

In the first game of the tourney Pflugerville,
tied Moody 0-0 in the 8th.
the Game was called on time.
Moody was awarded the win on tourney rules but both records state it as a tie.
Randall

I understand wanting to win...but at what cost? These are preseason games. They mean nothing.

I watched a team this weekend throw a kid 123 pitches. And then come back and throw another kid 110 pitches.

Sure, the kids got the win, but for what?

District play is coming up, and that is what matters. Not some preseason tournament. Burn up all your pitchers now, and you will be finishing out of the hunt come playoff time.

Keller Dad

If they had won it would have been looked at differently. the other team won. Give them their due.

Kellerdad

As I said earlier a good coach makes it work and he wont burn out arms either at the beginning of the season or in the end

I think the main point here is that, even if you're not trying (or whatever the phrase you feel adequate for the preseason games), the #1 team in the nation should not be losing this early...maybe good for districts later, but not number one, huh?

Keller:

If the game does not matter, why play? But then, if you never play, all games become early season and, thus, don't matter. In the end, nobody plays at all.

I like it better this way. Hooray for the underdog!

Daddybo, I believe you nailed it. Not that polls matter much (or at all) but I would guess this team will no longer be No. 1. Can't wait for the next one to fall.

quote:

the #1 team in the nation

On whose standards?

I HATE these HS ratings, unless those rating have seen EVERY HS team in the nation play within a week of each other there is no possible way to rank a team as #1. There are just to many tangibles..talent, strength of schedule, field conditions, coach talent, playing rules, etc. etc.

I don't pretend to know how the HS baseball season is organized in other states; but in TX, KellerDad is right. The pre-season tournaments bear no meaning on the success or failure of the HS baseball season. They are akin to spring training games for the professionals. District (or league) play determines state playoff qualifiers and seedings.

Let's not forget, a great season in baseball is a .700 winning percentage. So, the #1 ranked team lost a close ball game. Does that mean they still shouldn't be ranked #1? Sure they should! Illinois hoops lost yesterday, but they are still on top of my board. Congrats to the team that beat #1. Don't matter where you are ranked at the beginning, the only thing that matters is who is standing at the end. Prep rankings seem a little silly anyway. By the way, the last time I checked, my alma mater, Atholton H.S. (Columbia, MD), was ranked #9,482! Whew!!!

I have to agree with KD and DBG. TX HS Baseball is different. My sons old HS played 3 tournaments every year to begin the season before district started. Each tournament consisted of 4-5 games in 3 days. Many select teams would have difficulty with pitching early in the season under these circumstances, not to mention what happens to HS pitching during this time. The coaches usually bring up some JV players during this time to see what they can do.

I don't think the teams (coaches) are that concerned about the national ranking, as much as being prepared for their spring season without damaging arms.

Guys, Texas is no different from AZ and CA and many other states. But they still lost and it's still fun to talk about and probably they not only are not now the No. 1 team in the nation, they never were. More accurately, they most likely are among a number of teams that at any given time might be able to compete against the best in the nation and then at other times, maybe not.

I'm stunned over the sensitivity to a reaction to a loss that no matter what the circumstances is still a loss. I guess if they say they weren't really trying their best it doesn't count. But what if the other team also wasn't trying its best?

Much ado about nothing. If the games do not mean anything dont keep score.

Kellerdad,

I understand what your saying. Some here are too into themsleves and think they are all knowing and godlike. The whole point of the regular season is to make and prepare for a run in the playoffs. Getting those young players battle tough and experienced.

May I ask what HS player of any quality goes on the field and does not try their best-- if a kid doesn't try his best in a "practice" game why is he there ?

What kind of message is the coach sending to his players ?

If the games are of no significance then don't wear the uniform and don't keep score

You do not become battle tough playing games that do not count!!!

Did anyone tell the players the non-district games / tournaments mean nothing? Are these viewed as scrimmages by the coach, players, administration, fans? Did they not all bring their 'A' game?

.....sounds like the return of "daddy ball" here...

Here in Pflugerville, we are pretty proud of our team.
You can say anything you want. Moody pitched their ace against us and we hit him.
We had 4 hits off the 1 pitcher, on the 1# team in the nation.
Preseason, district, post season, it doesn’t change the fact, their the #1 team in the nation, and they tied 0 -0 with a non ranked team.
Also I don’t want to here that they were having an off day, the score proves they came to play, and win.
0-0 After 8 innings of play, that was one Heck of a game.
Don’t diminish the accomplishment of Pville and the team that beat them by saying the games didn’t matter.
To us and to them it matters.
Randall

Randall

Congrats to your team-- I agree--you dont play the games if they dont matter

No team plays any game without the intention and desire to win the game. Especially when you are a highly ranked team or in a well run program. These programs have alot of pride and believe me they are not going to out there with the attitude that its just a pre season game or whatever. To say it doesnt matter because of this or that diminishes the accomplishments of your opponent and simply does not wash.

quote:

Moody pitched their ace against us and we hit him. We had 4 hits off the 1 pitcher, on the 1# team in the nation.

Funny how some people define success. A 4 hitter in most books is an outstanding outing.

I know my son's team wants to win every game they play. They won more games last year than the school has ever won and they have a goal this year of going undefeated. Chances are slim that they can make this happen - they play the top teams in the state. But the point is the games matter to them - each and every one!

You don't hear the teams that did well in the tournament saying it doesn't matter.

You also don't hear coaches telling the kids before the tournament that it doesn't matter.

Interesting thoughts,

People sure can have a different perspective as to what others are saying.

Regarding the #1 ranked team in the country losing a one run game in a “preseason” tournament. KellerDad said the following.

1st post
Tournament games are worthless barometers on how good a team really is.

By the 4th and 5th games, you are facing their JV starters.

2nd post
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Kellerdad

Good coaches don't let that happen-- they are prepared


How do you figure? Tournaments mean nothing here. They are just pre season games allowing teams to come together.

They don't count towards your district record, which is the only thing that matters when it comes to playoff time.


Post 3
I understand wanting to win...but at what cost? These are preseason games. They mean nothing.

I watched a team this weekend throw a kid 123 pitches. And then come back and throw another kid 110 pitches.

Sure, the kids got the win, but for what?

District play is coming up, and that is what matters. Not some preseason tournament. Burn up all your pitchers now, and you will be finishing out of the hunt come playoff time.


I don’t think anyone needs to be defended but...

Where was it said the kids or coach wasn’t trying to win the game.

The high school team in question went 42-1 winning the 5-A Texas State Championship last year. I kind of doubt coaching or not being prepared is a problem. The reason they’re ranked #1 is because they have nearly everyone back this year. Including a pitcher who went 14-0 with a 0.00 ERA last year.

Over the course of the entire season, this loss really doesn’t mean much unless the team allows it to mean something. It is not very important in that respect. However, it can be very important to the team that won the game for many reasons. We all know that losing a baseball game is not something good teams will dwell on. Everyone is capable of losing a baseball game.

So why not congratulate the team who won the game against the #1 ranked team and leave it at that. Let’s also congratulate the team who tied them. These are great accomplishments by those teams, preseason or not. I think some coaches are most interested in preparing for the season and winning a championship. Every good player and coach wants to win every time they take the field, preseason or not. However the most important thing for the coach is to prepare the team for the season. I don’t think anyone would argue that the preseason is as important as the real season.

PG

do you agree that all games are important?

I don't know the specifics of this particular game, but I would venture to say that of course they wanted to win. The question is, at what cost? If the coach is trying to see what he has in the way of a team and giving everyone a fair chance to get playing time, that doesn't mean he doesn't want to win.

In HS my son had a prefect game for 5 innings in a preseason tourney and the coach asked him if it was okay to pull him because he wanted to get some other pitchers some work. It was no big deal.

Look at most of the upper college teams and their midweek games. They are playing some of the usual non-starters to get them playing time and solidify the team. Do they not want to win? Of course they do, just not at the "all costs" mentality.

One thing we were told by a college coach was that the Ivy League games were the most important games and while they would love to win every game, they would use the preseason games to evaluate players.

JMHO.

TR,

Yes all games are important in my mind. That includes intrasquad games and practice games. However all games are far from being equally important.

And how a team or coach uses preseason games can differ greatly. Don't know about the game in question, but I'm sure everyone wanted to win. The coaches also want to learn as much as possible about their team.

PG

You and I are on the same page--what bothers me is posters saying these games do not "matter"

In my book every game matters to one degree or another

Perhaps the appropriate thing to say is that these games don't matter as much as later in the season (district/playoffs).

Frank F - good post

TRHit - think of it this way. You are in a pool tournament and already have your pool won before the last pool game. You can use up a starter on this "meaningless" game, or save him for the bracket play, or finals. What would you do? Does saving your "ace" for later mean you do not care. To me it means you are a smart coach.

I have noticed that coaches in our area use these tournaments for different things. Some coaches go into the tournament with their rotations on paper and follow that plan no matter the outcome. Others adjust their plan based on the situation of the tournament. I do not think either are wrong.

Here in Texas, probably like many other states, the teams can play in up to 3 early tournaments. For each tournament they have to give up 2 regular season/non-district games. This way they can play 3 tournaments and get in 15 games instead of the 6 scheduled otherwise.

I do not know the specifics about the game that started this topic. I personally do not pay much attention to the outcome of the early season tournaments.

I think many took the words "does not matter" out of context of what was written. The poster merely stated that in the scheme of the season it has little significance. To TRHIT what matters is the "W". To the poster whjat matters is that the coach may have got to gauge what he has inasfar as underclassman or whatever. To say that a team is #1 at the beginning of a season is meaningless unless matters.

Blackheart

How can you judge me? You do not even know me-- I do not judge you

The "W" is not always the key--not for us anyway

Perhaps you should read what I said--every game counts--- simple as that--you never send a team on the field and tell them this game does not count

I still say the smart coach knows how to make it work regardless of how many games you play in how many days--- we have played 4 games in 48 hours and still had arms ready for the next game-- and it matters not what the level of play is !!!!

So, TR, tell me in your wisdom. You have your ace on the mound, he not only has signed a LOI to a top D1 school, but he is also being looked at being drafted in the top 3 rounds, where he will sign for LIFE changing money.

You are coaching in a preseason tournament. You have 5 or 6 games to compete in, in a 3 day period. You really only have 3 real pitchers you can count on, so you really want to win this game, with this pitcher.

The weather is mid 50's, with a breeze. It's also very humid out. Because of all the rain, you really haven't gotten in all of the practice you should have had. The team is still a little rusty.

But, your stud is throwing hard. The scouts have him at 90. It's a 0-0 game going into the 7th. You pitcher has 80 pitches on him.

You know if you leave your stud in, you have a great chance of winning the game. You know you will at least get a tie out of the game.

So, TR, what do YOU do. Do you leave your stud in? Do you pull him, and put one of your JV studs in, the Sophomore or Junior with potential. To get a look at him in a pressure situation?

Or do you ride your hoss? Get another inning out of him?

And what do you do when it's the 8th inning and you are in the same boat? What do you do then? How important is that win to you TR? Important enough that the pitcher break 100 pitches?

Let us know TR.

This is a fun read.

No high school game is more important than a pitchers arm. Period.