Gentleman
I am all for protecting pitchers arms but I have to vent a bit. As an old timer on this site I have read and read about pitch counts should little league kids throw curve balls. I coached high school for 25 years. In the beginning I pitched my kids as needed and the pitch count thing was not the hot topic it is today. When a kid was tired I got him out of there. I used common sense. I had a kid who was drafted. We were playing in a playoff game he pitched a complete game. Struck out 14. yes he ran some deep counts but he always did. We win and the first thing a reporter asks me is did I know he threw x amount of pitches. today it is like an obsession. I never and i repeat never had a kid with arm problems including the kid who is still playing professionally. It is called common sense. You have to know your kids. Yes there are kids that would stay out there forever if you asked them and that is what you want but you use common sense. Is there a magic number with pitch counts. You are in a tie game in the 6th of an elimination game in districts and your best pitcher is out there. His pitch count is x. Is he still throwing well is he struggling. Again common sense. Does common sense come with a pitch count number?
Experienced D1 coaches try to keep their starters under about 75 for the first start. This is after a full fall season of conditioning, thera-band drills, running, weights, scrimmages, all of it supervised.
They stretch their guys out to about 100 pitches for most starts. These guys generally pitch the same day each week with six full days rest. If they let a guy go further, its usually at the end of the year in a post season game, because they are in shape able go further.
Since this is conventional wisdom, I guess you could call it common sense.
The best high school coaches I know seem to always have enough pitching to win more than they lose, without their pitchers getting hurt. They understand the championship isn't won the first week or even the first month. They try to position themselves for the playoffs. They pick their spots, priority games to use their big guy, developing and coaching younger guys as they go.
The best race car drivers understand you can't win if you don't finish. Baseball is no different. Every team but the winner of the last game is disappointed.
They stretch their guys out to about 100 pitches for most starts. These guys generally pitch the same day each week with six full days rest. If they let a guy go further, its usually at the end of the year in a post season game, because they are in shape able go further.
Since this is conventional wisdom, I guess you could call it common sense.
The best high school coaches I know seem to always have enough pitching to win more than they lose, without their pitchers getting hurt. They understand the championship isn't won the first week or even the first month. They try to position themselves for the playoffs. They pick their spots, priority games to use their big guy, developing and coaching younger guys as they go.
The best race car drivers understand you can't win if you don't finish. Baseball is no different. Every team but the winner of the last game is disappointed.
We pull guys all the time with leads no hitters etc. Does that mean we dont want to win? No. We do it because we are protecting the kids arm and we want to see someone else get some work. We still want to win, we still try to win. Is a preseason game as important as far as the teams goals as a conference game? No. But it is still important and you are still trying to win it. My problem is people saying it does not mean anything because its a preseason game or we pulled our stud or whatever. Every team is trying to win. And when someone has a nice win congratulate them for the win. Dont come up with excuses on why you lost. We play some very tough non conference teams during the same weeks that we have conf games. We save our best pitching for the conf games. But we are still trying like heck to win those non conf games as well. If we get beat we dont say "Well it doesnt matter because we had our #3 or #4 on the hill and it wasnt a conf game". Tip your hat to the team that wins and move on.
KellerDad:
The true measure of a good team is the team, not just the starting lineup and its best pitcher. Sounds as if this particular group might fall a little short.
The true measure of a good team is the team, not just the starting lineup and its best pitcher. Sounds as if this particular group might fall a little short.
I don't think and I will re-read the threads but I don't believe the poster said that they were not "trying" to win. I think he said it was meaningless.
Lots of interesting thoughts here.
PGStaff probably summarized it best but I think KellerDad’s choice of words (“worthless barometers”) started the firestorm of challenges. I probably would have said “are not reliable baromoters”. I think he was trying to say that pre-district tournaments are not always representative of a high school team as coaches will use these games to see exactly how some of his “bubble” players will perform in district play. Often there are 6-7 players who have earned the starting slots with 4-6 battling for remaining positions and/or the #1 or #2 starting role and closer slot. Coaches also use these games to evaluate bats for pinch-hitting roles in district play.
The other issue is the number of games (5-6) in a 3-day period. Texas rules prohibit more than 3 games/week (except for extenuating, weather-related reasons) during district and playoff play and coaches prepare their teams for this type of schedule. Teams are allowed to play up to 6 games in tournaments. The pitch count issues have been and will be discussed often on this site but as it relates to this topic, most coaches are “preparing or determining” their pitching rotation to achieve 2 objectives: win their district and get that state championship ring in the playoffs. Check the box scores and you’ll find many games that are 1-sided where the winning team has used 3-5 pitchers. Another thought; do you use your starting catcher (who will probably catch every district and playoff inning) to catch 5-6 games in a 3-day period? I hope not; and what effect does that have?
None of the situations above means that the coach was “not trying to win” or the game was not important.
Ray’s victory should not be demeaned and I would say that their pitchers (if there was more than 1) did a fine job in silencing Moody’s bats. Most nationally ranked teams can usually rake. Congratulations to Ray on the win and best of luck to both teams this season!
PGStaff probably summarized it best but I think KellerDad’s choice of words (“worthless barometers”) started the firestorm of challenges. I probably would have said “are not reliable baromoters”. I think he was trying to say that pre-district tournaments are not always representative of a high school team as coaches will use these games to see exactly how some of his “bubble” players will perform in district play. Often there are 6-7 players who have earned the starting slots with 4-6 battling for remaining positions and/or the #1 or #2 starting role and closer slot. Coaches also use these games to evaluate bats for pinch-hitting roles in district play.
The other issue is the number of games (5-6) in a 3-day period. Texas rules prohibit more than 3 games/week (except for extenuating, weather-related reasons) during district and playoff play and coaches prepare their teams for this type of schedule. Teams are allowed to play up to 6 games in tournaments. The pitch count issues have been and will be discussed often on this site but as it relates to this topic, most coaches are “preparing or determining” their pitching rotation to achieve 2 objectives: win their district and get that state championship ring in the playoffs. Check the box scores and you’ll find many games that are 1-sided where the winning team has used 3-5 pitchers. Another thought; do you use your starting catcher (who will probably catch every district and playoff inning) to catch 5-6 games in a 3-day period? I hope not; and what effect does that have?
None of the situations above means that the coach was “not trying to win” or the game was not important.
Ray’s victory should not be demeaned and I would say that their pitchers (if there was more than 1) did a fine job in silencing Moody’s bats. Most nationally ranked teams can usually rake. Congratulations to Ray on the win and best of luck to both teams this season!
quote:Reply
well said dad.
i think a win is a win and noone can take it away. noone plays to lose but as most of you said these games dont mean anything if you cant win in may. But its not everyday that a team like ray gets to beat up on a nationally ranked team. Nice job boys enjoy it now because you are going to get a chance to play them 2 more times, when the stakes are alot higher.