I keep inquiring with you guys...........

quote:

OLDSLUGGER8
Member

Posted December 31, 2006 12:16 AM
Atkins takes over farm teams
Experience overseeing Latin American side deemed plus for job
By Sheldon Ocker
Beacon Journal sportswriter
As expected, the Indians promoted Ross Atkins to director of player development Monday.

He replaces John Farrell, who was hired as pitching coach for the Red Sox last week.

Even though Atkins has spent the past three years as the team's director of Latin American operations, he doesn't feel isolated from the Tribe's farm system.

``My knowledge is not nearly what it's going to be or as extensive as John Farrell's,'' Atkins said. ``But John always kept me in the loop, so it's a matter of refocusing.''

As director of player development, Atkins will oversee the Indians' six farm teams, as well as Latin American operations. He and assistant general manager Chris Antonetti will pick his successor.

Atkins will move his family from Miami and make a radical alteration in his work routine. As the Tribe's overseer of baseball academies in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, Atkins customarily spent one week a month in the Dominican Republic and three days a month in Venezuela.

The Indians have concentrated their Latin American operations mostly in three countries, with the third being Panama. They also have a strong interest in Puerto Rico, but Puerto Rican players are included in the annual June draft and thus are not part of Atkins' area of responsibility.

General Manager Mark Shapiro said he considered five applicants for the player development position and interviewed two. Atkins' experience in Latin America was considered a plus.

``We needed someone with a strong ability to communicate with people of different backgrounds and cultures,'' Shapiro said. ``Ross has a good feel for the game and ability as an evaluator.''

Atkins, 33, was Farrell's assistant from 2001 to 2003. He graduated from Wake Forest and pitched from 1995 to 1999 in the Tribe's farm system.

Atkins doesn't anticipate making any immediate changes.

``I'm going to get through this transition period,'' he said, ``so I have no changes planned.''

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:BM-6-gB-cWcJ:www.oh...n&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7


***** Less than 10% of the HS kids drafted in 2003 were re-drafted in 2006!!

The spots are taken by whom? Many of these kids!! So these scouts truly track your son when he chooses college ball? No way unless he is Mr. STUD!! Lets talk about college ball versus the Minors again!! Shall we?

Less than 10% are re-drafted. What is kids ultimate goal. I keep asking, but get jibberish.

Here is my take................. Hey kids in SA, play ball 12 months year round, get real good while these other guys try to get a college dimploma, play ball, and make every effort to make both work out.

Ain't gonna happen very often!! Way back I asked about the FREAK, the Stanford noodlehead who gets both done, usually a pitcher because they are 1/5 players. He gotsa great grades, and can forego 4 tools as long as he can pitch.

What about the other 8 guys out there?? Hey kids..........you want to ascertain your college degree while these other guys are taking your spot?

I hope this ruffles feathers. Just a reminder there are more hills and mountains out there, and that 3 years of college guarantees absolutely NADA.

Not sure why I think this post will soon be erased. With that in mind, I copied it for others to consider.
Many times I have posted about the "business of baseball." What is coming for your son is different than anything he has ever experienced before. That is true whether he is drafted and signs, follows his NLI, or follows other options. I wish the very, very best for your son. If you like ruffling feathers, so be it.
IMO, there are a lot of very good parents and players who will be trying to make decisions similar to those you describe. Once you are out of high school, NADA is guaranteed, whether you are drafted and sign, drafted and don't sign, or aren't drafted and pursue your NLI.
Finally, before you assert that a "Stanford noodlehead" is a "FREAK," please introduce yourself to Brian Hall. He is 25, as versatile and fine a player/person as you can find, graduated with 2 degrees from Stanford, has overcome cancer, shoulder and wrist surgeries, and will room with my son in the next few weeks in pursuit of the same dream you desire for your son. No one has walked in Brian's shoes and your reference to players from Stanford and players who pursue a college degree as opposed to professional options is personally repulsive.

quote:

Way back I asked about the FREAK, the Stanford noodlehead who gets both done, usually a pitcher because they are 1/5 players. He gotsa great grades, and can forego 4 tools as long as he can pitch.

What about the other 8 guys out there?? Hey kids..........you want to ascertain your college degree while these other guys are taking your spot?

I hope this ruffles feathers. Just a reminder there are more hills and mountains out there, and that 3 years of college guarantees absolutely NADA.

OS8 - let these negative feelings leave your system, it will only shorten your life imho. Be happy your son has signed and enjoy whatever else happens as gravy - re: draft.

We have many parents on this site whose sons attend Stanford, pitch, and are not going to appreciate those characterizations imho. These players are great athletes in their own right and were often the best position players (other than pitchers) in their respective states along with being great pitchers. Also, the most important tool any player has is his brain thus, Stanford players have a distinct advantage over most.

Finally, the college player is at a distinct advantage imho. After 3 years, they have an option which the pro player out of hs (at least to that point in their careers) does not.

Why lash out at those that are doing it their way? I never played college baseball, professional baseball, nor did I attend Stanford but I am offended at what you say. Why do you climb on your soapbox, grab the attention of the thousands of baseball parents and player and point out those that you disagree with and downplay their accomplishments? I usually file post away by the nature of their contents. I think I’ll just make a new folder and label this one as “Inflammatory and Pointless”.
Fungo

OS


I think you need some help---mentally !!!!

What on earth was the point of this thread?!?!!? I don't think Stanford has many "noodleheads" in their school or on their field. I also don't think pitchers anywhere are pitchers because they didn't have tools to do anything else... my own son included. Bitterness and anger in our lives will eat away at our souls and the spirits of our families.... no place for it in any of our lives.... including this website. JMO

BTW, my own son didn't end up at the school that recruited him the heaviest and was his number one choice. It happens! That sure doesn't mean that he doesn't thank God every day for how it turned out and count his blessings for the fit that he found! He didn't end up drafted out of HS neither... doesn't mean that his dream stopped. I hope your son is able to enjoy and feel the support of family whatever and wherever his journey takes him.

OldSlugger,

Do you have any idea how many of those Latin American kids go through the process - get no college education - and dont make it to MLB?

Here is the answer - ALOT.

And when their baseball career is over - they leave with a bag of donuts, a pair of worn out cleats and no college education.

I - too - am trying to figure out exactly what the point of your post is.

I think what old slugger was trying to say was while college players are getting an education and playing baseball part time, there are players in other parts of the world focused only on baseball.
You take a risk signing out of high school, you take a risk NOT signing. There are pros and cons on both sides. So follow your heart.

NJ,

I see it now. Thanks.

quote:

You take a risk signing out of high school, you take a risk NOT signing. There are pros and cons on both sides. So follow your heart.

njbb - great points. I will also say that players who choose to sign can always go back and get a college education if pro ball does not work out for them.

While a player who attend college rather than sign a pro contract takes a risk, so does the player who signs out of HS. He has a 4% chance of making it to the majors, and even then might only make it for a September call up.

There are many pitchers who have only one tool who make hitters with 4 or 5 tools miss more often than not when they swing.

Wow .

I am answering for my good friend Justbaseball, who would have been ripped if he saw this. As you all know his son attends Stanford and has had a bumpy rode along the way (freak accident this summer at the cape). Unfortunetly, JBB's mom has taken a turn for the worse and is by her side with the family.
Justbaseball and I have lot in common. His son and mine where prospects in HS for the draft and together we shared lots of if's, what if's, what shall we do. We both decided to let our sons choose what they felt was best for them and they both made great choices. His was drafted mine was not, they are both playing at fine baseball schools and having the time of their lives. If they could would they go back and change things, NOPE, and we are happy for that. But all this was based on where they were going and what they were looking for. Both aspire to play pro ball, just like every other baseball player in the US. Some take different directions to get there, that's their choice, it's personal. And whatever happens three years later, oh well, it happens or it doesn't and that is just the way to look at it.
You should look carefully at a player at Stanford, Michael Taylor, who is NOT a pitcher. He was a huge prospect out of HS, 4.0+ out of HS and is a huge propspect now. So much for the noodle head Stanford kids who don't pitch. Kind of put your player side by side against Micheal Taylor, that's what's ahead. Or try the catcher from Georgia Tech, Matt Weiters, or the CF from Clemson, Brad Chalk, that's your son's competition this year as college position players, the list goes on and on. What in the H**L are you so hung up about? Unless your son has an option to be very early pick, stop analizing. You can't control this, that's for sure.

Do scouts follow HS prospects that do not decide to sign out of HS. You bet they do, and very closely. Verrrrrrrrry closely. In fact, some teams only prefer college players so their progress is important. Some don't. And do you have to be a stud out of HS? No way, just ask our 13th pick player this year, Tyler Colvin who was NOT by any means a stud out of HS. Just very much possessed lots of the tools needed to TRY to get to the next level and had a VERY good year.

Listen to infielddad, your son after HS, no matter which road he decides to follow has something coming you will have never experienced or your son, because as infielddad states, it is a BUSINESS. Stop trying to build a case why one should or shouldn't, blah, blah. The only one you should be concerned with is YOUR player.

I recently heard a story. A latin american player comes up Venezuela, plays one year in the minors and sees that he has no future and now has NOTHING. He took the chance to get into the US and a job if things don't work out. He has no college option. Just an example about those you speak of taking sopts.

Your post didn't ruffle my feathers (other than the Stanford remark) because you don't listen very well. You keep asking and we keep telling, there are NO guarantees. You obviously still harbor very angry feelings about your son's HS recruiting experience.


Be happy your son has an option, stop beating yourself up. Try to put all of the draft hoopla out of your mind, because if you continue, after you see what it is all about next June, you are most likely going to be one unhappy dad.

Infielddad,
You never have to apologize for anything you say. More parents should listen VERY carefully to those that have gone before us.
My best to you and your family.

quote:

What is kids ultimate goal. I keep asking, but get jibberish.

OS8, if you want your son to sign out of HS when he gets drafted, it's OK with ALL the rest of us.

You have our permission and blessing.

quote:

So these scouts truly track your son when he chooses college ball? No way unless he is Mr. STUD!!

That is correct. Only the studs survive.

In college or the minor leagues.

Deal with it.

Why in the world would a professional scout track anyone who wasnt a "stud".

I dont know any professional scouts who track mediocre players.

Thats akin to being a food critic for the NY Times - and tracking the greasy spoon diners.

Pointless. IMO.

Ok, wait, I thought about it, I am going with FO on this one.

If your son gets drafted, go for it!

Happy now?

ROFLMAO, its and TPM.

I understand some of what Slugger is trying to point out.
The Latin Player's are being able to sign as 16yr old's.
Not having to go thru the draft and all.
I believe Sluggo think's that's unfair.
Are that they will leave are players behind in the dust if they do anything other then go Pro.

Well I believe you need to have more faith in your player's ability.
Like I said before, The EH host's minor leaguer's during the season.
I've had 1st rounder's and i've had free agent's.
Both 1st rounder's came out of College.
The Free agent was drafted out of college his senior year.
Released and picked up as a free agent.
Now is considered a good prospect coming up thru the system. Should be in triple A this year.
One first rounder was drafted out of HS in the middle round's, Went to college and became an All American.
The other 1st rounder was not drafted out of HS.
Became a 1st rounder out of College.
2 Player's drafted out of HS signed.
And they still have the same road to ho as the other's in the Minor League's.

Having your own live in advisor's is Priceless.

Son was drafted in the later round's of 06.
Was offered a fairly decent scholly offer to a top 25 team.
Son, I repeat Son made the choice to go to College.
And he made the right choice for him.

The EH never went to college, Can You Tell. LOL
In fact nobody in my family has ever went to College.
But I would like to see my son go and finish if that's possible.


There are no Guarantee's in Baseball.
If he's good enough he will make it, Know matter what.

But Sluggo get OFF of everybody's back on this Subject.
It's a personel choice
Live with it.
EH

quote:

But I would like to see my son go and finish if that's possible.

EH,

Anything and everything is possible. IMO

FYI,
Take a look at minor league rosters.

Just because a player has chosen pro ball does not always mean he is up at every game. One of my son's former coaches told me (his son played for Auburn and drafted by the Red Sox) that the roster is so over crowded son is lucky to get at bats AND see the field on a good day. You have to fight for your spot, college or pro. Of course the ones who got to be lucky and in the first few rounds will see more playing time, just because the team has made a big invenstment.

Becoming a pro does not mean automatic got a spot for everyday.

Baseball is a business. Yes, they might take a latin american player at 16 to develop, because that player does NOT have to attend HS and that player has no option to fall back on if he fails.

Think before you post.

How are we supposed to tell you the ultimate goal? What is YOUR son's ultimate goal and how does he wish to achieve it?

Three years of college guarantees NOTHING, so does getting drafted after HS.

JMO.

quote:

Three years of college guarantees NOTHING, so does getting drafted after HS. JMO.

Nor does signing out of Latin America at 16, other than you won't be sleeping in a dirt floor hut till you get cut and sent home.

The grass ain't greener in Latin America. Most of the time there is no grass.

I do appreciate the news flash that scouts are looking for STUDS. Very enlightening....

Dad04,

In several games - when my eldest played in Puerto Rico - they cut out pieces of cardboard boxes - doubled them up - and packed them in mud on the "Mound".

That was the rubber.

They love the game.

I hope they keep getting alot of chances to get the hell out of the ratholes they live in.

IMO.

...and then they take the extra card board home to sleep on. I guess you need to see things first hand south of the border to understand why they crawl on their hands and knees to get here.

quote:

They love the game.

I hope they keep getting alot of chances to get the hell of the ratholes they live in.

Right on ITS.

I hope they keep raising the Bar.
It will only make the Baseball World Stronger.
American Kid's can play with anybody and the World.
And there not Afraid of a Challenge.
EH

quote:

American Kid's can play with anybody and the World.

They do it every day April through October.

I meant are youth.
American KIDS.
Not adult's.

Them too......

OS8 - I mean this as genuinely and truthfully as anything...I hope you find peace, somehow with yourself and your view of this process. You seem to me very troubled.

And while your "Stanford noodlehead" remark really doesn't bother me at all (actually I got a good chuckle out of it and I needed a good chuckle today while visiting your home state), I truly hope you get the good fortune to meet the young man that infielddad told you about someday. I have. Your life will be genuinely enriched from the experience. It will be one of the very, very best days of your life. I can assure you of that.

Happy New year! As some may have noticed, I just got a lesson in addition and subtraction
I put my stone away and got some lemonade for EVERYBODY!! (it's spiked)

The lemonade tastes better.

BTW, I love Ohio...grew up here. Might move back someday.

One simple solution---if you don't like it here ---LEAVE

quote:

by RH: only that his posts are cryptic, disorganized, and negative.

def - cryptic; having hidden or secret meaning
hmm, maybe your interpretaion is not the intended one



well, there's no hidden meaning in TR's post . . . or is there



I went to school w/a guy who couldn't write a sticky note - -
now he has a staff to comunicate to his 100+ employees

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:

***** Less than 10% of the HS kids drafted in 2003 were re-drafted in 2006!!

The spots are taken by whom? Many of these kids!!

. . . while these other guys are taking your spot?

From what I have recently learned, a major league team can only have 30% of their entire roster filled from outside of America. That's their entire roster - including all of their minor league teams. Seems like there are still plently of spots left. Don't think the other guys are taking away spots.

Besides, it you're good enough to play, it WILL happen, Latin America or not!!

***I like to generate debate, get opinions, not psychotherapy like some replies from those who feel qualified as a Shrink?? thanks redhead..... don't know much about Old Sluuger - only that his posts are cryptic, disorganized, and negative. I sense a lot of rage and personal dissatisfaction. From what I gather on this post, it seems that he thinks South American players have a distinct advantage over our kids living in the USA.***

cryptic......OK.......Ignorant 0%.....its about the debate, the opinions, but not necessarily mine.

I have been quoted many times here that all decisions are made on the field of play!!Period!!


The other side of the coin!!

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:uvQTnNXGMT4J:slam....n&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

Latin American 'boot camps' no guarantee

By BOB ELLIOTT -- Toronto Sun

Tony Fernandez made it.

So, did Kelvim Escobar and Junior Felix.

They wore major-league uniforms, as did Domingo Ramos, Luis Sojo, Sandy Martinez and Domingo Cedeno.

But what happens to other players from Latin America who sign after July 1, when they are 17, but are out of minor-league ball after three or four years?

Arturo J. Marcano Guevera knows and the Indiana University graduate has written about the hardships facing those who try to make it from the day they enter a baseball academy and about those who don't make it.

Guevera, along with David P. Fidler, wrote Stealing Lives, The Globalization of Baseball and the Tragic Story of Alexis Quiroz.

Guevera taught sports law at the University of Massachsuetts last year. He and his wife, Mary Ann, are living in Etobicoke where they've resided for most of the past nine years.

"Teams over-sign players and send them to academies in the Dominican and Venezuela," Guevera said this week at the Rogers Centre.

It's similar to overbooking a flight. Except if you make the flight, something is guaranteed in return. Academies are like boot camps, with very little to handle the basics such as a sore elbow or shoulder.

SOCIAL PROBLEMS

"This has led to great social problems in Latin America," the author says. "Young boys give up schooling, give up everything to chase a dream not everyone realizes. After being released they come home without an education and can't find work."

In North America, teams offer a high schooler or a collegian a signing bonus, plus a schooling package for when his career is over. That does not happen in Latin America.

"The whole thrust of the book is that it is possible to play baseball and get an education, too," he says of his campaign to raise awareness. "So many players see baseball as the only way out of poverty. They are pushed by families and scouts to play baseball, to be the next Sammy Sosa or Pedro Martinez."

Guevera doesn't like the inequity of the average signing bonus for drafted players in North America, which averages $15,000-$17,000 US in Canada, the United States and Puerto Rico. In Latin America, free agents sign for an average of $5,000-$8,000, or so the book claims.

Of the 822 majors leaguers on opening day rosters, 27.9% were foreign born. Of the 6,568 minor leaguers, 45% were foreign born. The Dominican Republic leads with 1,463 players, followed by Venezuela (831), Puerto Rico (114), Mexico (95), Australia (85) and Canada (82).

Respected baseball expert Milton Jamail is quoted as saying: "There is not a kid in the Caribbean who reaches his 14th birthday without being seen by a major-league team."

If it's tough enough for veteran scouts to project a college pick at age 21, how easy can it be for buscons -- or searchers -- to look at a 14-year-old and do the same?

The book traces the story of Quiroz, of Venezuela, who signed with the Chicago Cubs, was sent to the Dominican summer league, injured his left shoulder, was then taken to a storage room and a trainer stomped on his shoulder to get it back in place. Quiroz incurred $7,694 in medical bills after being released.

"At the academy, Alex was paid $750 a month, but $300 of that went back to the Cubs for room and board," he says. "I've read where Alex Rodriguez of the Yankees has been asked about academies. He said if he had attended one, he probably wouldn't have made it."

Seeing former major leaguers such as Tony Pena and Ozzie Guillen send their sons to U.S. schools, Guevera hopes some are seeing the light and combining baseball and school. But not everyone has a father who played in the majors.

Former Major League Baseball CEO Sandy Alderson used to talk about "the great humanitarian works MLB was undertaking in Latin America."

MLB should first start by treating players like humans, not cattle.

**** no Shrinks need apply**** THERE IS NO ANGER

Some random thoughts :
Of the Kids drafted in 2003 that did sign how many are still in baseball after 2006?

Of the kids drafted in 2003 that did sign and do not get to the "show" What percentage go back to college?

Is there increased competetion from Latin countries absolutely, the Far East explosion of talent we are starting to see now as well and academies similar to Latin countries will be seen as well. ( I think that is even more reason to go to college)

Maybe the solution is to move to Dominican Republic live in poverty (not meant to be slam but most stories about the kids speak of their limited resources)and don't get an education, and play there. Of course I would like to know the percentage of Dominican players that play at these academies that don't get drafted and of course we never know about.

To sign or not to sign when you are drafted is a question I'm not smart enough to answer...how about a definite maybe...and about forgoing professional ball and playing in college a resounding maybe as well.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:

***** Less than 10% of the HS kids drafted in 2003 were re-drafted in 2006!!

Less than 10% are re-drafted. What is a kids ultimate goal. I keep asking.

Here is my take................. Hey kids in SA, play ball 12 months year round, get real good while these other guys try to get a college dimploma, play ball, and make every effort to make both work out.

Ain't gonna happen very often!! Way back I asked about the FREAK, the Harvard type who gets both done, usually a pitcher.

What about the other 8 guys out there?? Hey kids..........you want to ascertain your college degree while these other guys may be taking your spot?

Just a reminder there are more hills and mountains out there, and that 3 years of college baseball guarantees absolutely NADA.

I would also say that being drafted out of high school guarantees absolutely NADA.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhead:
So what is your point? Did you just copy the article for no reason? Do you have an opinion?

***expressing opinions here are treated a WRONG, so why bother!!

Just more fodder on the ongoing college vs. Pro debate. There is no right or wrong answer, just an individuals decision.

You go to college to get an education

You play college baseball either to play college baseball or use it as a venue to advance to Pro.

You go to the minors and try to advance to a higher level

quote:

There is no right or wrong answer...

Actually there is a right and wrong answer...you just may not know it at the time you make the decision. You may not know the "right" answer for years. You may never know the "right" answer!

But you're right, each individual has their own life to live and may arrive at many different conclusions under similar circumstances.

JBB,
I agree there definetly is a right or wrong answer.
Sometimes you know it right away, sometimes it takes a while to figure it out.

I know making the decision to turn pro or go to college is a difficult one. That's something to be discussed in advance and decided upon after draft day.

Parents of HS players,
Try not to pay attention to all of this. You might be wondering the whole season what is the right thing to do, but come draft day, son doesn't get drafted, then you'll turn around and say, wish I had paid more attention to son's last HS season! Put it aside and enjoy the moments, you'll never have them back again.

TPM.
Great advice.
Enjoy the here and now.
Let that other stuff take of it self in due time.
EH

As a parent of a HS player who was drafted, yes this is a very tough decision and one to make wisely. As Parents we both wanted our child to attend school but the question we asked ourselves after talking with Son. what is it that he really wanted to do!! We couldn't picture our son attending classes and knowing that he could be playing Pro Ball. It is a tough road for a 19yr old to suddenly be thrusted into doing everything for himself. The long bus rides between games and living out of a suitcase. They have to grow-up and adjust quickly cause mom/dad aren't there to help them. In closing is there a correct answer to the question Pro versus College I can't really say, we made what we thought was in the best interest of our child and haven't looked back since. I must say that to those considering this that to please keep the MLB Scholarship plan in your mind. This item is also negotiable and son has used this during his offseason.