FWIW, I haven't seen the kid pitch this year, but a coach in that district told me he has made significant changes to his delivery.
Another interesting fact is that he pitched all the way up to the state tournament last year, so obviously some of the states best umps saw him.
Every coach I've talked to feels it's a balk, except his coach of course. But if he throws 90+, would you expect any differnet answers?
He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
Pitch i cant type that well. I dont think it needs a rule to defend it; I think it falls withain all of the rules that define a legal delivery. I dont think you can find one rule/definition that it does not meet. Prove me wrong.
Piaa I know you dont like it, I dont like it either. BUT just because you dont like it doesnt mean its not continuous. Where does he stop? I have looked at it frame by frame and there is no place,in 30 frames per second, where he is not in continous motion. What did you think of The Rockies' House's motion? Do you see it as not continuous?
Piaa I know you dont like it, I dont like it either. BUT just because you dont like it doesnt mean its not continuous. Where does he stop? I have looked at it frame by frame and there is no place,in 30 frames per second, where he is not in continous motion. What did you think of The Rockies' House's motion? Do you see it as not continuous?
An umpire in Texas must be reading this website. I was told that Tuesday, Javier was called for 4 no-pitches and 4 balks. It evidently shook him up because he also hit 4 batters and had several walks in 2+ innings. This resulted in a 5-2 loss, his first in HS since 2002.
a MLB pitcher who kinda jump off the mound is the Rocket Roger Clemens, he does a little hop if you watch. If i was an ump thought, i wouldn't change a pitchers motion unless hes doing something like a crow hop
Just me,
I post on here as an umpire, so this is where we differ. You say, "Piaa I know you dont like it, I dont like it either. BUT just because you dont like it doesnt mean its not continuous"
But again, as an Umpire, I am the judge. its my opinion that counts. And I am just posting what I would call facing this delivery.
On other topics in the HSBBW, I post as a fan or as a dad of an '04. But in here, Its umpire only. Calling a balk per the rules relies heavily on umpire judgement. Judgement is the sole non protestable thing in baseball. In this case I adjudge this to be a balk.
It would seem that there are people on both sides of the fence, but that wont help me in the game when Im the UIC. I dont have the luxury of a lifeline. I have to trust what I think, what Ive experienced over the past 20 years and my learned rule knowledge.
I havent changed my mind. But it has been quite a good discussion. However from this NFHS Umpire....until such time as it is definitively approved...........BALK.
I post on here as an umpire, so this is where we differ. You say, "Piaa I know you dont like it, I dont like it either. BUT just because you dont like it doesnt mean its not continuous"
But again, as an Umpire, I am the judge. its my opinion that counts. And I am just posting what I would call facing this delivery.
On other topics in the HSBBW, I post as a fan or as a dad of an '04. But in here, Its umpire only. Calling a balk per the rules relies heavily on umpire judgement. Judgement is the sole non protestable thing in baseball. In this case I adjudge this to be a balk.
It would seem that there are people on both sides of the fence, but that wont help me in the game when Im the UIC. I dont have the luxury of a lifeline. I have to trust what I think, what Ive experienced over the past 20 years and my learned rule knowledge.
I havent changed my mind. But it has been quite a good discussion. However from this NFHS Umpire....until such time as it is definitively approved...........BALK.
I've watched Roger Clemens for years, his delivery is nothing like what we are talking about on this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Just Me:
c'mon EVERY pitcher leaves the rubber with back foot, only difference is stong rotators rotate off plate, linear pitchers go straight off just like this. Look at the toe drag; if u look at the mound after any game from LL up you will see
marks from the same motion 9/10 times. Look at video of pitchers, like u would if u were teaching a pitcher; ALL of them leave the rubber with the back foot, part ofg what their instructors/coaches look at is HOW they leave the rubber
http://hitting.0catch.com/Keven_Brown.mpeg
I disagree. I slowed it down and Kevin Brown's toe is only about 2 inches off rubber and still on ground when he releases the ball.
Piaa did you look at the clip of Craig House? What do you think about his motion?
WRT this kid, if you are making a judgement that it is a balk then you are judging that he is in violation of one of the pitching rules. Which one? If you are still thinking in terms of it not being a continuous motion then, to maintain consistency with your position, you need to show that it is not continous. Where does he stop? This isnt the dark ages anymore. Radar guns, 30 or 60 or 100 frame/sec video is a fact of life, just as are the cameras that MLB is using to monitor the Strike zone and the umpires ability or willingness to call the true strike zone. Now thats the ultimate judgement call, ball/strike and the umps are being held accountable for their judgement. The same standard should be set for anyone calling a balk on a pitcher. Saying I am an experienced ump so that when I say white is black it is just doesnt cut it any more.
So if its a balk show what rule it is in violation of. If its not a continuous motion show me where his motion stops.
WRT this kid, if you are making a judgement that it is a balk then you are judging that he is in violation of one of the pitching rules. Which one? If you are still thinking in terms of it not being a continuous motion then, to maintain consistency with your position, you need to show that it is not continous. Where does he stop? This isnt the dark ages anymore. Radar guns, 30 or 60 or 100 frame/sec video is a fact of life, just as are the cameras that MLB is using to monitor the Strike zone and the umpires ability or willingness to call the true strike zone. Now thats the ultimate judgement call, ball/strike and the umps are being held accountable for their judgement. The same standard should be set for anyone calling a balk on a pitcher. Saying I am an experienced ump so that when I say white is black it is just doesnt cut it any more.
So if its a balk show what rule it is in violation of. If its not a continuous motion show me where his motion stops.
Jeff So we know that 2 inches off the rubber is OK according to you. Is 4? 6? 24?. C'mon be consistent in your argument. Its gotta be either on or off. Pregnant or not. Not a litlle bit off is OK but a little bit further off isnt. A little pregnant is still pregnant.
I appreciate all the replys but he changed his
delivery. We had the head umpire come out & check his delivery, we tried dragging the toe & was told no its illegal, due to the hop/jump, were also told it was not continuous, he then tried to drop & an drive they didn't care how far off the rubber he was as long as he doesn't hop/jump. He is working on this still & has been as far as 24" from the rubber. The ruling was as long as he drags his toe it would be ok.
He threw a 1 hit shut out, but will receive complaints as he finds his new delivery mechanics! Any comments about leaving the rubber Pedro Martinez releases at the same point as Roger Clemens, How does this happen unless you leave the rubber?
delivery. We had the head umpire come out & check his delivery, we tried dragging the toe & was told no its illegal, due to the hop/jump, were also told it was not continuous, he then tried to drop & an drive they didn't care how far off the rubber he was as long as he doesn't hop/jump. He is working on this still & has been as far as 24" from the rubber. The ruling was as long as he drags his toe it would be ok.
He threw a 1 hit shut out, but will receive complaints as he finds his new delivery mechanics! Any comments about leaving the rubber Pedro Martinez releases at the same point as Roger Clemens, How does this happen unless you leave the rubber?
Just Me. I am a stickler. Off is off. I was making a statement that Kevin is not 1 foot off and there is some question whether he is off or not. The rules are clear. I don't know why the big argument. The rules clearly say you must pitch while in contact with the rubber. As an umpire, I would move and see the angle if a coach argued and at that point make a call. AS an opposing coach, I would make the umpires make a call. Either it is legal or illegal. And I know several highly known high school coaches in Georgia who would make their pitcher pitch from 1 foot away on the first pitch to make the umpires make a decision. Don't always agree but we as umpires make things difficult when we don't make calls according to the book.
Just me,
"This isnt the dark ages anymore. Radar guns, 30 or 60 or 100 frame/sec video is a fact of life, just as are the cameras that MLB is using to monitor the Strike zone and the umpires ability or willingness to call the true strike zone. Now thats the ultimate judgement call, ball/strike and the umps are being held accountable for their judgement. The same standard should be set for anyone calling a balk on a pitcher. Saying I am an experienced ump so that when I say white is black it is just doesnt cut it any more.
So if its a balk show what rule it is in violation of. If its not a continuous motion show me where his motion stops."
Here is your quote. I know you would like to have the rule book to have all the answers and every situation matched up with a hard and fast rule. Problem is baseball isnt like that, ever was and never will be.
Baseball is all about Umpire judgement, is he safe is he out, did he leave early, did he balk, did he catch the ball, did he miss the base, did he slide maliciously.......all these things have rules attached to them, BUT rely solely on the Umpire on the field to determine if they apply.
Please don't tell me about modern Radar guns, 30 or 60 or 100 frame/sec video being a fact of life. It isnt happening (and will never happen) on any level lower than big time College or MLB.
I umpire teams where the field is carved out of a pasture and the dugouts are sections of telephone pole with a 2"X 10" nailed to the top serving as benches. Ive had to dig into my bag to get baseballs when the teams didnt have any new baseballs. Where will anyone find the money for your technology? Besides the fact that it being used is against the rules?....Rule 10-1-art 5 " the use of videotape or equipment by game officials for the purpose of making calls or rendering decisions is prohibited"
You say the same standard should be set for anyone calling a balk on a pitcher. Saying I am an experienced ump so that when I say white is black it is just doesnt cut it any more.
Sorry, but it does. I am the one who applies the rules, I determine what a balk is, its no different if I say a ball is a ball or safe is safe or catch is a catch. It is what an umpire calls it.
We will not agree on this motion as being legal. I see it as a balk, you dont. Fine, thats what makes this a great discussion between us.......but in the final analysis, It would be a balk if I was the UIC, because I called it a balk and even if the pitcher, his coach, his dad or any fan does not think so, my opinion is the only one that matters, based on the authority of the rule book.
Best regards,
"This isnt the dark ages anymore. Radar guns, 30 or 60 or 100 frame/sec video is a fact of life, just as are the cameras that MLB is using to monitor the Strike zone and the umpires ability or willingness to call the true strike zone. Now thats the ultimate judgement call, ball/strike and the umps are being held accountable for their judgement. The same standard should be set for anyone calling a balk on a pitcher. Saying I am an experienced ump so that when I say white is black it is just doesnt cut it any more.
So if its a balk show what rule it is in violation of. If its not a continuous motion show me where his motion stops."
Here is your quote. I know you would like to have the rule book to have all the answers and every situation matched up with a hard and fast rule. Problem is baseball isnt like that, ever was and never will be.
Baseball is all about Umpire judgement, is he safe is he out, did he leave early, did he balk, did he catch the ball, did he miss the base, did he slide maliciously.......all these things have rules attached to them, BUT rely solely on the Umpire on the field to determine if they apply.
Please don't tell me about modern Radar guns, 30 or 60 or 100 frame/sec video being a fact of life. It isnt happening (and will never happen) on any level lower than big time College or MLB.
I umpire teams where the field is carved out of a pasture and the dugouts are sections of telephone pole with a 2"X 10" nailed to the top serving as benches. Ive had to dig into my bag to get baseballs when the teams didnt have any new baseballs. Where will anyone find the money for your technology? Besides the fact that it being used is against the rules?....Rule 10-1-art 5 " the use of videotape or equipment by game officials for the purpose of making calls or rendering decisions is prohibited"
You say the same standard should be set for anyone calling a balk on a pitcher. Saying I am an experienced ump so that when I say white is black it is just doesnt cut it any more.
Sorry, but it does. I am the one who applies the rules, I determine what a balk is, its no different if I say a ball is a ball or safe is safe or catch is a catch. It is what an umpire calls it.
We will not agree on this motion as being legal. I see it as a balk, you dont. Fine, thats what makes this a great discussion between us.......but in the final analysis, It would be a balk if I was the UIC, because I called it a balk and even if the pitcher, his coach, his dad or any fan does not think so, my opinion is the only one that matters, based on the authority of the rule book.
Best regards,
Justme,
Sorry, I can't let this go....
My son, in reposnse to a question about what a strike was, said "A strike is whenever an umpire calls one". I thought first he was trying to be smart mouthed, then, I thought "Geez, that's exactly right"!
So what PIAA said is true, a balk is when he calls one! It needs to be based upon a rule though..... So here-
Rule 8.01 (a)(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
Glad to hear this very talented young man is changing his delivery, it will take time, but in the long run it will be good for him. I think that in chaseing a dream, the fewer the obstacles that you have in the way, the better. Like it or not, his delivery can be seen as an obstacle (apparently has caused some questions with respect to recruiters) and should be removed from the realm of consideration.
If any other pitcher does the same, or close to the same thing, I'd try to advise changing. It would be easier to change it at an earlier age, but can be done when older too.
By the way, I do see this as continueous, but he is raising his foot (through a rather "forceful" knee kick, which in turn, raises his foot from the ground).
Sorry, I can't let this go....
My son, in reposnse to a question about what a strike was, said "A strike is whenever an umpire calls one". I thought first he was trying to be smart mouthed, then, I thought "Geez, that's exactly right"!
So what PIAA said is true, a balk is when he calls one! It needs to be based upon a rule though..... So here-
Rule 8.01 (a)(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
Glad to hear this very talented young man is changing his delivery, it will take time, but in the long run it will be good for him. I think that in chaseing a dream, the fewer the obstacles that you have in the way, the better. Like it or not, his delivery can be seen as an obstacle (apparently has caused some questions with respect to recruiters) and should be removed from the realm of consideration.
If any other pitcher does the same, or close to the same thing, I'd try to advise changing. It would be easier to change it at an earlier age, but can be done when older too.
By the way, I do see this as continueous, but he is raising his foot (through a rather "forceful" knee kick, which in turn, raises his foot from the ground).
Pitch for a minute I thought you had me 
BUT that part of the rule relates to How a pitcher can come off the rubber ie step off or pick. It does not define what is a legal motion, and in fact, subsequent subsections go on to define just exactly how he can step ( which requires raising the foot from the ground) with either foot. Text in brackets in 1 and 2 below is mine:
Quote:
a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot. When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position. The pitcher may have one foot, not the pivot foot, off the rubber and any distance he may desire back of a line which is an extension to the back edge of the pitcher's plate, but not at either side of the pitcher's plate. With his "free" foot the pitcher may take one step backward and one step forward, but under no circumstances, to either side, that is to either the first base or third base side of the pitcher's rubber. If a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in a windup position. From this position he may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(thus he can go from windup into his delivery(duh) and, if this is his normal delivery, and its continuous, its legal)
(2) step (WITH THE LEAD FOOT) and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first. He may not go into a set or stretch position - if he does it is a balk.
ALSO: note that this text refers only to the windup position. There is no such language in the set position 8.01(b) so even by the interpretation you put on this language in the windup position it would be legal from set position.
PS I agree with "Glad to hear this very talented young man is changing his delivery, it will take time, but in the long run it will be good for him. I think that in chaseing a dream, the fewer the obstacles that you have in the way, the better. Like it or not, his delivery can be seen as an obstacle (apparently has caused some questions with respect to recruiters) and should be removed from the realm of consideration."
Besides its still ugly.
BUT that part of the rule relates to How a pitcher can come off the rubber ie step off or pick. It does not define what is a legal motion, and in fact, subsequent subsections go on to define just exactly how he can step ( which requires raising the foot from the ground) with either foot. Text in brackets in 1 and 2 below is mine:Quote:
a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot. When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position. The pitcher may have one foot, not the pivot foot, off the rubber and any distance he may desire back of a line which is an extension to the back edge of the pitcher's plate, but not at either side of the pitcher's plate. With his "free" foot the pitcher may take one step backward and one step forward, but under no circumstances, to either side, that is to either the first base or third base side of the pitcher's rubber. If a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in a windup position. From this position he may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(thus he can go from windup into his delivery(duh) and, if this is his normal delivery, and its continuous, its legal)
(2) step (WITH THE LEAD FOOT) and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first. He may not go into a set or stretch position - if he does it is a balk.
ALSO: note that this text refers only to the windup position. There is no such language in the set position 8.01(b) so even by the interpretation you put on this language in the windup position it would be legal from set position.
PS I agree with "Glad to hear this very talented young man is changing his delivery, it will take time, but in the long run it will be good for him. I think that in chaseing a dream, the fewer the obstacles that you have in the way, the better. Like it or not, his delivery can be seen as an obstacle (apparently has caused some questions with respect to recruiters) and should be removed from the realm of consideration."
Besides its still ugly.
Piaa'Ump u cant hide there. There is , demonstrably, the money to do this because it has been video'd and posted and you have seen the video. Soooooo, if you were now to ump a game that this kid pitched in you would, in fact, know that the motion was continuous, which was your point of infraction I believe. As an ump of principle you would need to make the right call. Also there is no HS game or youth game played in America in these days that doesnt have the potential for multiple video cameras in the stands and dugouts, and we need to be aware of this. Any clip can be posted to the web. Rodney King etc.
I dont have any argument with the UIC making his call during a game and that being the end of the issue, in that game, right there. You are right that is baseball etc etc. (who is going to win THAT argument anyway!) However, when the issue is raised in a forum such as this I think we should make an attempt to find out what is actually happening in the motion and if it is, in fact, in violation of any rule. If it isnt we should say so; if it is we learn how its illegal in a way that matters ie can be seen and taught etc. Its all about learning and teaching, right?
I also think that the route chosen by the conference in which the kid in question pitches is the correct one; IE have the Chief umpire or a designated official make a Ruling after an examination. Settles the point. Establishes precedent and lets all involved know where they need to go. Having said that I think THE RULING should involve the use of the best info possible and should be required to be clear and precise as to what rule is violated.
Fun Thread really.
I dont have any argument with the UIC making his call during a game and that being the end of the issue, in that game, right there. You are right that is baseball etc etc. (who is going to win THAT argument anyway!) However, when the issue is raised in a forum such as this I think we should make an attempt to find out what is actually happening in the motion and if it is, in fact, in violation of any rule. If it isnt we should say so; if it is we learn how its illegal in a way that matters ie can be seen and taught etc. Its all about learning and teaching, right?
I also think that the route chosen by the conference in which the kid in question pitches is the correct one; IE have the Chief umpire or a designated official make a Ruling after an examination. Settles the point. Establishes precedent and lets all involved know where they need to go. Having said that I think THE RULING should involve the use of the best info possible and should be required to be clear and precise as to what rule is violated.
Fun Thread really.
Ok, one last thing.....I wont use video, its not permitted per the rules. But, and here is where we will meet in the middle....
"have the Chief umpire or a designated official make a Ruling after an examination. Settles the point. Establishes precedent and lets all involved know where they need to go."
"As an ump of principle you would need to make the right call"...If we have a ruling from a designated official, I will call it that way regardless of my personal feelings.
Previously in NFHS rules, we umpires used to have to call out any player that missed a base, without an appeal by the defensive team. I never agreed with this, as I thought an Umpire should not be part of the defense. Of course now that rule has changed. But I did enforce it.
"have the Chief umpire or a designated official make a Ruling after an examination. Settles the point. Establishes precedent and lets all involved know where they need to go."
"As an ump of principle you would need to make the right call"...If we have a ruling from a designated official, I will call it that way regardless of my personal feelings.
Previously in NFHS rules, we umpires used to have to call out any player that missed a base, without an appeal by the defensive team. I never agreed with this, as I thought an Umpire should not be part of the defense. Of course now that rule has changed. But I did enforce it.
Justme,
Why would it say "He shall not raise either foot from the ground" if they didn't mean it? And why, from the wind-up, would you want too?
Is he, or is he not, raising his foot?
Why would it say "He shall not raise either foot from the ground" if they didn't mean it? And why, from the wind-up, would you want too?
Is he, or is he not, raising his foot?
Pitch you tell me. If they meant it why did they then go on to contradict it in subsequent subsections?
I am not sure that he actually does lift his foot, except in that it obviously clearly leaves the ground after toe drag, as his hips rotate thru, but then so do all other pitchers.
Note also that I see no evidence of a "hop and jump" that others refer to; note also that the kid in the link is not the actual kid described by the original poster but rather one that was linked as a "just like this example". Makes me wonder just how similar the 2 boys' motions are.
I am not sure that he actually does lift his foot, except in that it obviously clearly leaves the ground after toe drag, as his hips rotate thru, but then so do all other pitchers.
Note also that I see no evidence of a "hop and jump" that others refer to; note also that the kid in the link is not the actual kid described by the original poster but rather one that was linked as a "just like this example". Makes me wonder just how similar the 2 boys' motions are.
Pitch
So do you think this motion ( the linked video clip we can actually see) is OK from Set position?
So do you think this motion ( the linked video clip we can actually see) is OK from Set position?
No, he still raises his foot (through a very vigourous leg kick) and then replants/ retouches it. And it's not a drag, which is pretty normal near the release point.
Which section contradicts?
Pitch are u talking about the Geurra boys clip as linked on page 1 by Pantherproud? Cause if you go there and download the Perfect Game clip its pretty clear that he does NOT raise the foot. He pushes off the rubber and you can see the toe drag...dirt is thrown up by the dragging of the toe. There is no hop or "replanting" or second push; there is only the one push from the rubber.
Sec 2 and 3 clearly describe how to lift either foot, with the sec 2 portionclearly describing lead foot action different from that allowed in(a)
You never answered as to +/- balk from set position
Sec 2 and 3 clearly describe how to lift either foot, with the sec 2 portionclearly describing lead foot action different from that allowed in(a)
You never answered as to +/- balk from set position
Sure I did, I said no.
And yeh, that's the clip I'm talking about, but like said, the foot comes off the ground, don't think it's by levetating, but even if it is, it's still being "lifted" off the ground.
And yeh, that's the clip I'm talking about, but like said, the foot comes off the ground, don't think it's by levetating, but even if it is, it's still being "lifted" off the ground.
Opps... No, not legal.
Well then. Just to keep in the (recent) spirit of the HSBBW I should probably call you rude names
However, I wont. BUT methinks you must be blind if you cant see his toe dragging
I wont post anymore if you wont!
Just Me
However, I wont. BUT methinks you must be blind if you cant see his toe dragging
I wont post anymore if you wont!
Just Me
NO MAS! NO MAS! 