About three years ago somewhere in the DC area a guy started a summer camp based on the concept of playing pickup sports all day. I have no idea if it's been successful.
It can also be defined in how you define declining----attendance is at an all time high---they are looking to go international----pretty soon it may not be Americas game
Saw a piece where the LHP Cuban defector has reached a 30 million dollar deal with the Reds !!!!
Saw a piece where the LHP Cuban defector has reached a 30 million dollar deal with the Reds !!!!
quote:pretty soon it may not be Americas game
Oh, it will be America's game alright. It's just that it will be Latin America, South America, and Central America, with a touch of North America.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
It can also be defined in how you define declining----attendance is at an all time high---they are looking to go international----pretty soon it may not be Americas game
Saw a piece where the LHP Cuban defector has reached a 30 million dollar deal with the Reds !!!!
Which LHP Cuban defector? This one?
LHP Cuban defector signs with Royals
It's not just baseball ....
"Johannson cared not to comment on a growing belief, expressed by a number of sources Friday, that the amateur sport has been fragmented more in Massachusetts than it has in other areas by various leagues and entrepreneurial enterprises (clinics, camps, etc.) that are more about getting money from kids in the short-term than helping them develop their careers long-term. What, businessmen in Massachusetts out for a quick buck? Cut it out."
This quote is from an article in the Boston Globe on the decline of top hockey prospects in Massachusetts. It's a different sport but don't the reasons sound familar? Businesses not interested in the long term development of the sport. Parents need to be more informed and make better decisions.
"Johannson cared not to comment on a growing belief, expressed by a number of sources Friday, that the amateur sport has been fragmented more in Massachusetts than it has in other areas by various leagues and entrepreneurial enterprises (clinics, camps, etc.) that are more about getting money from kids in the short-term than helping them develop their careers long-term. What, businessmen in Massachusetts out for a quick buck? Cut it out."
This quote is from an article in the Boston Globe on the decline of top hockey prospects in Massachusetts. It's a different sport but don't the reasons sound familar? Businesses not interested in the long term development of the sport. Parents need to be more informed and make better decisions.
Jimmy03
No!!!
The Chapman kid, they say he is 23, who is already on his 2nd agent
No!!!
The Chapman kid, they say he is 23, who is already on his 2nd agent
Oops. Forgot about him...yeah, 30 mill.
quote:pretty soon it may not be Americas game
The Brits said it about sokker
The Scots said it about golf
and the list goes on
The US had a stranglehold on baseball for a Century until many Americans found out they could make a buck exporting the game and it's products. If the French had the same marketing skills we'd be sending our kids to Petanque showcases to find out if he is a joueur de cinq outils
IMO, travel teams have caused a decline in baseball (in some areas).
1)By the time they reach 13, it all becomes too expensive for many families. Today, it is difficult to make the high school team unless you've got some travel ball experience. Doable, but difficult. I look at our baseball team and every single player also plays on either a travel team or a showcase team. It is becoming a "rich boy's sport". Without the money to pay for these teams and the individual lessons, a kid has a tough time competing.
2)For the kids that can afford the travel teams, many get burned out. It's year round, they've already played many tournaments and had some really great experiences going out of state and wearing the really cool uniforms. I can't tell you how many parents told me their kid was in a "World Series" event this past summer. ????? Many have had intense parents that may have always been that way, or became intense because of what they'd invested in $$$ and time. Playing for the love of the game gets lost and the kid burns out. It's just not fun anymore and there are no real big goals to reach, so why bother.
1)By the time they reach 13, it all becomes too expensive for many families. Today, it is difficult to make the high school team unless you've got some travel ball experience. Doable, but difficult. I look at our baseball team and every single player also plays on either a travel team or a showcase team. It is becoming a "rich boy's sport". Without the money to pay for these teams and the individual lessons, a kid has a tough time competing.
2)For the kids that can afford the travel teams, many get burned out. It's year round, they've already played many tournaments and had some really great experiences going out of state and wearing the really cool uniforms. I can't tell you how many parents told me their kid was in a "World Series" event this past summer. ????? Many have had intense parents that may have always been that way, or became intense because of what they'd invested in $$$ and time. Playing for the love of the game gets lost and the kid burns out. It's just not fun anymore and there are no real big goals to reach, so why bother.
Swimming is taking some athletes also. Scholarships, plus girls in bathing suits.
Is baseball declining?
For the record, I am talking about 19U within our own respective areas.
I am not talking about college or pro baseball.
For the record, I am talking about 19U within our own respective areas.
I am not talking about college or pro baseball.
When my son played USSSA from thirteen to fifteen there were nine or ten World Series the team could have participated. It was a joke. For most the eligibility requirement was the entry fee. The only one that matters in USSSA is the Elite World Series.quote:I can't tell you how many parents told me their kid was in a "World Series" event this past summer.
There are kids making our high school team playing Junior Legion and Legion. But the best players all play travel.quote:Today, it is difficult to make the high school team unless you've got some travel ball experience.
Baseball is strong here. Locally, our declining numbers in youth baseball participation were back in the mid to late 90's. Within 5 miles there are three 12 field youth baseball complexs. One of closest, in the Spring, will have 1400 kids from 5 to 13 playing ball on one of 3 nights a week. Several 10, 11, 12 y/o teams travel up to 75 miles to play doubleheaders in league at this park, as the competition is strong. Same park has near weekly Utrip weekend tournaments from first of March through early July. Super Series is also strong here & Nations is on its way. Travel another 10 miles out & there are two more 12 field complexs. Of 3 of the other nearby 12 field complexs, one smaller complex & a 3 year old huge complex within an hours drive, all host sanctioned tournaments. League wise, locally, there are no drafted Little League(tm) or CR programs...next to no demand. Signup rec ball is available through lower divisions at nearly every park, along with several metro park programs that are 100% rec oriented.
Public school middle school ball, for the most part, starts Spring of 8th grade. 3 of our local 5 middle schools just recieved (via bond issue) 500K, a piece, for upgraded middle school ballfields, upgraded backstops & dugouts. All three public highschools in town (2K students each) currently have baseball construction in progress, ie, new expanded dugouts & stands built along with at least one HS building a larger indoor facility. At least one of the 6A high schools within 10 miles will field two freshman teams for 2010. Locally, freshman making varsity, only happens at the smaller private schools. In the entire metro area 6A's can only think of two Freshman in 2009 that made varsity.
Public school middle school ball, for the most part, starts Spring of 8th grade. 3 of our local 5 middle schools just recieved (via bond issue) 500K, a piece, for upgraded middle school ballfields, upgraded backstops & dugouts. All three public highschools in town (2K students each) currently have baseball construction in progress, ie, new expanded dugouts & stands built along with at least one HS building a larger indoor facility. At least one of the 6A high schools within 10 miles will field two freshman teams for 2010. Locally, freshman making varsity, only happens at the smaller private schools. In the entire metro area 6A's can only think of two Freshman in 2009 that made varsity.
Journey2: Wow $500K each? We can't even get our school system to help with the basics. What area/state do you live in?
www.collegeselect-trhit.blogspot.com
In an effort to maintain and increase baseball interest we have started this blog page---join us and tell your friends
In an effort to maintain and increase baseball interest we have started this blog page---join us and tell your friends
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
About three years ago somewhere in the DC area a guy started a summer camp based on the concept of playing pickup sports all day. I have no idea if it's been successful.
A while back on a message board somewhere (not HSBBW I don't believe), I brought up the idea of an "organized sandlot" league if that makes any sense. Basically, there would be some sort of adult supervision, but no coaching or anything like that. I just don't think in most situations a parent is going to let their kid out of their sight without some sort of supervision. So, I know this isn't how it used to be back in the good ole days, but it may be a necessary evil.
Basically, kids could just show up and join a team and play ball. No need for umpires, coaches, etc. There would be no set schedule for your kid, so if you have something already going on for Tuesday night, just show up Wednesay instead. It would be less stress on the parents to be here at this time or else....it would be less stress on the kids because they wouldn't have some coach screaming at them when they let the routine grounder go through their legs.
I think it could work. Of course, when I brought it up, everyone said "that's not how its supposed to be....the point of sandlot baseball is no adults". Well, like I said, that's great in theory, but that's just not going to happen in reality IMO
I am kind of like RJM, I played to have fun, it was a game, I did enjoyed the competition,but mostly the friendships, the team, the coaches. We played on a packed sand field, that would be dragged daily. weeds, no mound, hog wire fence for the out field. And I thought it was great. I do remember playing league games in July.
I remember when I was 16, our first practice of the year, was on the night of the NCAA basketball championship game. So it must have been late March early April.
Now, in the same city, our league starts practice in late Feb. Season starts mid to late March and is over Mid June.
I remember when I was 16, our first practice of the year, was on the night of the NCAA basketball championship game. So it must have been late March early April.
Now, in the same city, our league starts practice in late Feb. Season starts mid to late March and is over Mid June.
quote:Originally posted by GapFinder:
I enjoyed the competition,but mostly the friendships, the team, the coaches. We played on a packed sand field, that would be dragged daily. weeds, no mound, hog wire fence for the out field. And I thought it was great.
I agree 100%. Hot nights in 1960's San Antonio wearing uniforms that did not breathe.(I think they were made from some kind of animal fur, now extinct)
But now I enjoy watching my son playing. How many of us have wondered what we would have been able to do with the training opportunities our kids have today. My son, as well as many teammates, have turned that training into the promise of playing much longer than I did.
Thing is, once the game is over, we get home and he is back outside with the neighborhood kids, playing hoops, riding skateboards, bikes, snowboarding in winter, fishing all day in summer.
Yep, there was a time, maybe the good ol days, but I
like power steering, microwaves, central air, and a computer to let me get on HSBBW and talk about those days.
quote:Originally posted by workinghard:quote:pretty soon it may not be Americas game
Oh, it will be America's game alright. It's just that it will be Latin America, South America, and Central America, with a touch of North America.
Anyone who watched the 2009 World Baseball Classic might realize that the only place baseball is declining is right here in America. With our own stubborn desire to keep it for ourselves, to keep tied to our own over-romanticized memories of majestic sandlot games that only we have the right to appreciate.
But the Koreans and Japanese didn't seem to give a rip about that rich American history when they showed up with their excellent fundamentals and ability to execute. Watching those guys play this year was a pure delight to me, because I love to watch great baseball being played well. And frankly, I'm sick of watching US teams trotting out big, burly home run hitters who can't lay down a bunt or stay down on a ground ball.
So I say let's get over ourselves and embrace baseball as a world sport. Let's quit trying to make it so condescendingly US-traditional, and grow it into something that future generations will actually participate in. It seems to be flourishing just fine without our BS traditions anyway.
I play high school ball and most kids say that baseball is a lazy man's game and that they'd rather run track. I think kids nowadays don't realize how great of a game baseball is.
That's because baseball is too hard. It takes a whole lot more than being big, running fast. It's way to hard to just "pick up" in high school.
I know a lot of kids don't want to play baseball, because they fail so much and cannot handle the failure of the game.
It's brutal as the game is setup for you to fail more than you succeed.
It's brutal as the game is setup for you to fail more than you succeed.
Thank You to everyone for sharing their opinion.
There are many contributing reasons for the decline in high school baseball here in Northern Virginia.
But the four factors which I think contribute the most are (1) travel baseball; (2) showcase baseball; (2) high school baseball politics; and (4) money.
Travel Baseball:
The typical travel team is formed around the sons of the team’s coaches. Most teams tend to have a core of four or five players (the coaches’ sons) who are not necessarily the most talented players on the team. These players are typically surrounded by more talented players though the ‘core players’ (i.e., coaches sons) receive the bulk of the playing time and thus the bulk of the exposure.
My son was involved with travel baseball between the ages of 11 and 14. From his experience with travel ball I would generally say that my son had better competition than what was offered by the local Little League or the local American Legion program – in fact the local American Legion program has not been able to field a team for the past ten years because the local baseball players play on travel teams or ‘elite’ baseball teams in a hope to be ‘seen’ by college coaches.
I noticed that most travel baseball players are predominantly white and financially from upper middle class/upper class families. When helping out with my son’s teams I coined the phrase, “Country Club Baseball”, this because only players whose parents can financially afford to pay are playing travel baseball and the talented players from lower income families are left out of the mix, not exposed to college coaches, not known to high school coaches, generally overlooked and thus look into less expensive sports and/or just stop playing baseball altogether.
Of the sixteen travel players on my son’s 14U team whose parents invested large sums of money, seven are now playing college baseball as freshmen.
Showcase Baseball:
My son was involved with showcase baseball at the age of 17. And again it was predominantly for only baseball players who were from financially upper middle class/upper class families – again there are very few Black or Hispanic players attending these showcases. Though my son was able financially to participate in the showcase experience it seemed that most players attending were already being ‘touted’ by the scouts in attendance who typically did not veer from their lists of prospects.
In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments.
Politics:
In the county where I reside it became clear to me during my son’s freshman year of high school that two local high school coaches dictated who was worthy of the local high school baseball accolades.
In my son’s four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while less talented, but highly ‘touted’ players moved on to college baseball.
At my son’s own high school many of the players who make the team are those whose fathers have influence with the high school coach. In the past years many talented middle school players have opted to play other sports because they know that the chances of them making the high school baseball team are not as much about baseball ability or potential, but more about if they are well connected in the local baseball community and ‘touted’.
Today most high school baseball coaches can’t or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community.
For example: My son graduated from high school in 2009. He has the size (6’ 0” / 220 lbs), the statistics (BA .461; HR 3; and RBIs 21), the grades (GPA 3.5 with 7 AP Courses) and a passion for the game and he was named to the All-District 1st and 2nd Teams and the All County Team.
But still with all of this he received no real attention for college baseball with the exception of D3 programs which offer only academic scholarships, if any. The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not ‘touted’ by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the county. My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply.
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
Money:
As with the rest of our society, money is the driver of the current baseball development system and scouting system. Only those players who can afford to market themselves through travel ball or baseball showcases will have any real chance to get noticed and move on. Talented players without the finances needed to attend showcases or play travel baseball already know this and typically can’t compete politically against their peers in high school because the high school coaches do not know who they are or do not take the time to develop baseball talent any more.
Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and 'touted' these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players.
Playing baseball in college seems to be less about baseball talent these days and more about getting your name 'touted' with or without talent. The days of finding a diamond in the rough are over – it’s just not cost effective any longer.
But the four factors which I think contribute the most are (1) travel baseball; (2) showcase baseball; (2) high school baseball politics; and (4) money.
Travel Baseball:
The typical travel team is formed around the sons of the team’s coaches. Most teams tend to have a core of four or five players (the coaches’ sons) who are not necessarily the most talented players on the team. These players are typically surrounded by more talented players though the ‘core players’ (i.e., coaches sons) receive the bulk of the playing time and thus the bulk of the exposure.
My son was involved with travel baseball between the ages of 11 and 14. From his experience with travel ball I would generally say that my son had better competition than what was offered by the local Little League or the local American Legion program – in fact the local American Legion program has not been able to field a team for the past ten years because the local baseball players play on travel teams or ‘elite’ baseball teams in a hope to be ‘seen’ by college coaches.
I noticed that most travel baseball players are predominantly white and financially from upper middle class/upper class families. When helping out with my son’s teams I coined the phrase, “Country Club Baseball”, this because only players whose parents can financially afford to pay are playing travel baseball and the talented players from lower income families are left out of the mix, not exposed to college coaches, not known to high school coaches, generally overlooked and thus look into less expensive sports and/or just stop playing baseball altogether.
Of the sixteen travel players on my son’s 14U team whose parents invested large sums of money, seven are now playing college baseball as freshmen.
Showcase Baseball:
My son was involved with showcase baseball at the age of 17. And again it was predominantly for only baseball players who were from financially upper middle class/upper class families – again there are very few Black or Hispanic players attending these showcases. Though my son was able financially to participate in the showcase experience it seemed that most players attending were already being ‘touted’ by the scouts in attendance who typically did not veer from their lists of prospects.
In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments.
Politics:
In the county where I reside it became clear to me during my son’s freshman year of high school that two local high school coaches dictated who was worthy of the local high school baseball accolades.
In my son’s four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while less talented, but highly ‘touted’ players moved on to college baseball.
At my son’s own high school many of the players who make the team are those whose fathers have influence with the high school coach. In the past years many talented middle school players have opted to play other sports because they know that the chances of them making the high school baseball team are not as much about baseball ability or potential, but more about if they are well connected in the local baseball community and ‘touted’.
Today most high school baseball coaches can’t or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community.
For example: My son graduated from high school in 2009. He has the size (6’ 0” / 220 lbs), the statistics (BA .461; HR 3; and RBIs 21), the grades (GPA 3.5 with 7 AP Courses) and a passion for the game and he was named to the All-District 1st and 2nd Teams and the All County Team.
But still with all of this he received no real attention for college baseball with the exception of D3 programs which offer only academic scholarships, if any. The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not ‘touted’ by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the county. My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply.
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
Money:
As with the rest of our society, money is the driver of the current baseball development system and scouting system. Only those players who can afford to market themselves through travel ball or baseball showcases will have any real chance to get noticed and move on. Talented players without the finances needed to attend showcases or play travel baseball already know this and typically can’t compete politically against their peers in high school because the high school coaches do not know who they are or do not take the time to develop baseball talent any more.
Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and 'touted' these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players.
Playing baseball in college seems to be less about baseball talent these days and more about getting your name 'touted' with or without talent. The days of finding a diamond in the rough are over – it’s just not cost effective any longer.
Here we go again !!!!
Concur. I threw everyday as a kid and I did not need to have a structured baseball practice to do so; and there was no such thing as a pitch count.
But with this said, many local coaches in Northern Virginia overuse their best pitcher(s). Many stories of young pitchers tearing up their shoulders before they ever graduate high school.
But with this said, many local coaches in Northern Virginia overuse their best pitcher(s). Many stories of young pitchers tearing up their shoulders before they ever graduate high school.
PW or is it Milburn
what does the second post have to do with your first post ?
Do you coach a legion team?
what does the second post have to do with your first post ?
Do you coach a legion team?
PWREDS.
You should hook up with Coach Milburn.
You should hook up with Coach Milburn.
I'm pretty sure he was refering to
"THE KIDS TODAY DON'T THROW ENOUGH!"
"THE KIDS TODAY DON'T THROW ENOUGH!"
Never be pretty sure of anything
Why not?
PWREDS - if you have an agenda, this is not a place for seeking retribution for past slights. Our forums are not the place to be attacking coaches or parents in the northern Virginia area, for example.
Most first-time posters start out here with a question and genuine desire to fit in with the community. There seems to be a much harder edge to your posts and frankly it seems you want to lash out. That is not what we are about.
Most first-time posters start out here with a question and genuine desire to fit in with the community. There seems to be a much harder edge to your posts and frankly it seems you want to lash out. That is not what we are about.
PW
I always thought abou the talented kid that could nto afford the exposure...especailly if the high school program does not promote them. However in other posts suggestions hav ebeen made( going to a MLB "free" tryout is away to get baseball to notice a player...they do feed quality kids to colelge coaches.
I realize this is your POV:
"In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."
But my POV is that college colleges need and want talent and would not overlook at any talent. They can't afford to overlook any talent. Glad to hear your son is playing college ball and hope he does well.
I always thought abou the talented kid that could nto afford the exposure...especailly if the high school program does not promote them. However in other posts suggestions hav ebeen made( going to a MLB "free" tryout is away to get baseball to notice a player...they do feed quality kids to colelge coaches.
I realize this is your POV:
"In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."
But my POV is that college colleges need and want talent and would not overlook at any talent. They can't afford to overlook any talent. Glad to hear your son is playing college ball and hope he does well.
Boy, another one of those long threads!
So what are the conclusions? Is baseball declining in the US and if so what seem to be the causes?
Its certainly not declining in Latin America and there's not many middle/upper class white folks around here. Guess the percentage of Latin baseball players in the MLB will continue to rise.
By the way, there is no high school baseball in most latin american countries, only youth league programs.
So what are the conclusions? Is baseball declining in the US and if so what seem to be the causes?
Its certainly not declining in Latin America and there's not many middle/upper class white folks around here. Guess the percentage of Latin baseball players in the MLB will continue to rise.
By the way, there is no high school baseball in most latin american countries, only youth league programs.
Conclusion:
Scouts dont look for the most talented players only the most touted players.
College coaches dont look for the most talented players only the most touted players.
Wow!
Lets see when I first started coaching hs baseball many years ago "No one comes to see our kids play. We have alot of talent but no one comes to see them."
Later while I was coaching hs baseball "If you cant get on the bigtime showcase teams your not going to get any looks."
Finally "There are alot of kids that can play college baseball but they are overlooked by the highly touted kids."
So where were the kids of these parents when the local JC put on a camp? Where were they when the local showcase team put on a showcase? Where were they when PG put on a showcase 35 minutes from the HS campus and offered a discount for any players I would bring? Where were these players on Sundays when players would meet at the field for extra bp on their own? Where were these players at 5am on weekdays when the other highly touted players held workouts in the gym and weight room? Where were these players all summer when we were running gasers in the blazing sun and doing core work with long toss?
Sitting around looking for more excuses on why they didnt get what they thought they deserved. Save it for people who dont have a clue OK.
Scouts dont look for the most talented players only the most touted players.
College coaches dont look for the most talented players only the most touted players.
Wow!
Lets see when I first started coaching hs baseball many years ago "No one comes to see our kids play. We have alot of talent but no one comes to see them."
Later while I was coaching hs baseball "If you cant get on the bigtime showcase teams your not going to get any looks."
Finally "There are alot of kids that can play college baseball but they are overlooked by the highly touted kids."
So where were the kids of these parents when the local JC put on a camp? Where were they when the local showcase team put on a showcase? Where were they when PG put on a showcase 35 minutes from the HS campus and offered a discount for any players I would bring? Where were these players on Sundays when players would meet at the field for extra bp on their own? Where were these players at 5am on weekdays when the other highly touted players held workouts in the gym and weight room? Where were these players all summer when we were running gasers in the blazing sun and doing core work with long toss?
Sitting around looking for more excuses on why they didnt get what they thought they deserved. Save it for people who dont have a clue OK.
PWREDS,
That was the most comprehensive list of excuse making I have ever read on this site.
Very impressive!
That was the most comprehensive list of excuse making I have ever read on this site.
Very impressive!
PW,
Forgive me, but your post sounds like someone with a lot of sour grapes at the end of the path.
First of all, to say HS ball is declining because of travel ball is nonsense. I don't know of any HS age travel teams that even try to compete with HS programs. Typically travel teams play summer and fall and leave spring for HS play. Any travel coach who would tell a kid to give up on his school team is a nut job who should rightly have all his players desert him.
As for teams your son was on all being coached by parents of players: That is typical up to age 14, but if it's still going on in the HS years, you either chose the wrong team or your son wasn't good enough to land on a travel team that was truly oriented to showcasing for college scouts. This is part of why I say your post sounds more like sour grapes than any genuine insight.
As for scouts only looking at players they're told to look at and not selecting players based on talent, whooooeee that is a whopper. I mean, it is to laugh. First of all, while it is true that scouts often come to see someone who was recommended to them, those recommendations have to have come from reliable sources, or they won't show up. So if you want to carp about the fact that others are touted, again, that sounds like sour grapes. If you're saying a scout would overlook talent that was right in front of him in favor of some other kid just because someone recommended the other kid, well, that's baloney. Sorry, just telling it like it is. Reality is that college coaches love to find those undiscovered gems. For one thing, they can often get them at low % deals, which is very important to the program's depth.
The reality is that the best place to be seen is on a team that is loaded with talent. The higher grade the HS age team you're on, the more likely it is you will get seen because there'll be more scouts there already. If you're 17 and still playing daddy ball in the local league, don't expect miracles. And while I appreciate that Coach Milburn is looking out for the guy with little money, the reality is that I have not yet seen the Legion team that could draw scouts like the travel teams mentioned above.
And oh, yeah, as for "country club baseball" -- my son's recruiting was handled while he was with a team that only made us work concession stand shifts at fund-raising tournaments. We never wrote a check. Of course, fools and their money are soon parted, but don't mistake the kind of team that exists as an income source for someone on the one hand, with a truly elite travel team on the other.
Forgive me, but your post sounds like someone with a lot of sour grapes at the end of the path.
First of all, to say HS ball is declining because of travel ball is nonsense. I don't know of any HS age travel teams that even try to compete with HS programs. Typically travel teams play summer and fall and leave spring for HS play. Any travel coach who would tell a kid to give up on his school team is a nut job who should rightly have all his players desert him.
As for teams your son was on all being coached by parents of players: That is typical up to age 14, but if it's still going on in the HS years, you either chose the wrong team or your son wasn't good enough to land on a travel team that was truly oriented to showcasing for college scouts. This is part of why I say your post sounds more like sour grapes than any genuine insight.
As for scouts only looking at players they're told to look at and not selecting players based on talent, whooooeee that is a whopper. I mean, it is to laugh. First of all, while it is true that scouts often come to see someone who was recommended to them, those recommendations have to have come from reliable sources, or they won't show up. So if you want to carp about the fact that others are touted, again, that sounds like sour grapes. If you're saying a scout would overlook talent that was right in front of him in favor of some other kid just because someone recommended the other kid, well, that's baloney. Sorry, just telling it like it is. Reality is that college coaches love to find those undiscovered gems. For one thing, they can often get them at low % deals, which is very important to the program's depth.
The reality is that the best place to be seen is on a team that is loaded with talent. The higher grade the HS age team you're on, the more likely it is you will get seen because there'll be more scouts there already. If you're 17 and still playing daddy ball in the local league, don't expect miracles. And while I appreciate that Coach Milburn is looking out for the guy with little money, the reality is that I have not yet seen the Legion team that could draw scouts like the travel teams mentioned above.
And oh, yeah, as for "country club baseball" -- my son's recruiting was handled while he was with a team that only made us work concession stand shifts at fund-raising tournaments. We never wrote a check. Of course, fools and their money are soon parted, but don't mistake the kind of team that exists as an income source for someone on the one hand, with a truly elite travel team on the other.
is baseball declioning.........or just good topics. 
PWREDS: I do think you have a point. It does seem that baseball is becoming a Country Club sport. How many financially disadvanged players do you see playing ball these days? Very few. Certainly none on our HS team, our travel teams or our showcase team. Just look at the cars they drive, the bats they swing, and the clothes they wear. We are losing half our audience(players and fans) because they give up on the game early on. Still, I don't think that this is the main reason for baseball declining. IMHO, it's the unethical side of running baseball as a business that has caused it's decline. Steriods, lack of loyalty to a team and unbalanced paying power that are killing our sport. So yeah, I have to agree. Money is the route of all evil.
I do want to make one note about talented players going unnoticed. You do have to have impressed someone that has influence in order to get seen. Parents are so savvy these days about contacting coaches that college programs get hundreds of emails. If you don't have a coach that a)believes in you and b)has some credibility with the college coach, you leave it up to chance that you will get seen. Unless you are a stud, being on the right team or playing against the right team is key.
But also know that talented players are sometimes passed by on purpose. Perhaps what they saw off the field or in the stands turned off the recruiters. Sometimes you don't know the whole story.
I do want to make one note about talented players going unnoticed. You do have to have impressed someone that has influence in order to get seen. Parents are so savvy these days about contacting coaches that college programs get hundreds of emails. If you don't have a coach that a)believes in you and b)has some credibility with the college coach, you leave it up to chance that you will get seen. Unless you are a stud, being on the right team or playing against the right team is key.
But also know that talented players are sometimes passed by on purpose. Perhaps what they saw off the field or in the stands turned off the recruiters. Sometimes you don't know the whole story.
quote:Originally posted by PWREDS:
There are many contributing reasons for the decline in high school baseball here in Northern Virginia.
But the four factors which I think contribute the most are (1) travel baseball; (2) showcase baseball; (2) high school baseball politics; and (4) money.
Travel Baseball:
The typical travel team is formed around the sons of the team’s coaches. Most teams tend to have a core of four or five players (the coaches’ sons) who are not necessarily the most talented players on the team. These players are typically surrounded by more talented players though the ‘core players’ (i.e., coaches sons) receive the bulk of the playing time and thus the bulk of the exposure.
My son was involved with travel baseball between the ages of 11 and 14. From his experience with travel ball I would generally say that my son had better competition than what was offered by the local Little League or the local American Legion program – in fact the local American Legion program has not been able to field a team for the past ten years because the local baseball players play on travel teams or ‘elite’ baseball teams in a hope to be ‘seen’ by college coaches.
I noticed that most travel baseball players are predominantly white and financially from upper middle class/upper class families. When helping out with my son’s teams I coined the phrase, “Country Club Baseball”, this because only players whose parents can financially afford to pay are playing travel baseball and the talented players from lower income families are left out of the mix, not exposed to college coaches, not known to high school coaches, generally overlooked and thus look into less expensive sports and/or just stop playing baseball altogether.
Of the sixteen travel players on my son’s 14U team whose parents invested large sums of money, seven are now playing college baseball as freshmen.
Showcase Baseball:
My son was involved with showcase baseball at the age of 17. And again it was predominantly for only baseball players who were from financially upper middle class/upper class families – again there are very few Black or Hispanic players attending these showcases. Though my son was able financially to participate in the showcase experience it seemed that most players attending were already being ‘touted’ by the scouts in attendance who typically did not veer from their lists of prospects.
In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments.
Politics:
In the county where I reside it became clear to me during my son’s freshman year of high school that two local high school coaches dictated who was worthy of the local high school baseball accolades.
In my son’s four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while less talented, but highly ‘touted’ players moved on to college baseball.
At my son’s own high school many of the players who make the team are those whose fathers have influence with the high school coach. In the past years many talented middle school players have opted to play other sports because they know that the chances of them making the high school baseball team are not as much about baseball ability or potential, but more about if they are well connected in the local baseball community and ‘touted’.
Today most high school baseball coaches can’t or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community.
For example: My son graduated from high school in 2009. He has the size (6’ 0” / 220 lbs), the statistics (BA .461; HR 3; and RBIs 21), the grades (GPA 3.5 with 7 AP Courses) and a passion for the game and he was named to the All-District 1st and 2nd Teams and the All County Team.
But still with all of this he received no real attention for college baseball with the exception of D3 programs which offer only academic scholarships, if any. The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not ‘touted’ by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the county. My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply.
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
Money:
As with the rest of our society, money is the driver of the current baseball development system and scouting system. Only those players who can afford to market themselves through travel ball or baseball showcases will have any real chance to get noticed and move on. Talented players without the finances needed to attend showcases or play travel baseball already know this and typically can’t compete politically against their peers in high school because the high school coaches do not know who they are or do not take the time to develop baseball talent any more.
Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and 'touted' these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players.
Playing baseball in college seems to be less about baseball talent these days and more about getting your name 'touted' with or without talent. The days of finding a diamond in the rough are over – it’s just not cost effective any longer.
Long, and very opinionated, for someone's first post. I must say, this is one of the most cynical posts I think I've ever seen from a first time poster.
PWREDS, welcome to high school baseball web, it's a great site, one where you can exchange ideas and opinions with many experienced people from all walks of life who have a passion for baseball. That said, I don't think you're going to find a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint, or Coach Milburns. Are you one and the same, or brothers? The impression I get is that the grapes taste pretty sour to you.