I agree with the others about this sour grapes, first time post.
It's too bad PWREDS didn't find this website a few of years ago. With the help and opportunities available here maybe his experience could have been better.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
PW or is it Milburn
what does the second post have to do with your first post ?
Do you coach a legion team?
Noooo TRhit, here I am. Why would start posting as PWREDS? I have my own account and I believe I have no problem with sharing my own opinion. I am using my own identity plus have shared my contact info, so WHY would I start using an alias? There is NO reason for me to do so.
So, quit trying to sling mud on me sir! STOP it already!
Maybe the other discussion has started bringing out the lurkers/just readers to start sharing their own experiences.
There is nothing wrong with others sharing the own experience whether its positive or not so positive.
Everyone has a right to share this own experience. If they are stating anything that is not true, then they can be held accountable by other avenues.
Leave pwreds alone. Let him vent. Can't people have sour grapes? Everyone doesn't have a great baseball experience.
milburn
A fence has two sides pal !!!!!
A fence has two sides pal !!!!!
Leave pwreds alone. Let him vent. Can't people have sour grapes? Everyone doesn't have a great baseball experience.
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i agree, i think it's alway's good to see the whole picture. after his explaining his son came out ok, kind of a rags to riches thing.
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i agree, i think it's alway's good to see the whole picture. after his explaining his son came out ok, kind of a rags to riches thing.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
milburn
A fence has two sides pal !!!!!
That is great, then why does not the HSBBWeb Old Timer's allow others to share this own experiences then without so much grief?
The perception is that the hsbaseballweb is so one-sided, please allow others to share the other side of the fence, if they elect to do so.
quote:Originally posted by 06catcherdad:quote:Originally posted by PWREDS:
There are many contributing reasons for the decline in high school baseball here in Northern Virginia.
But the four factors which I think contribute the most are (1) travel baseball; (2) showcase baseball; (2) high school baseball politics; and (4) money.
Travel Baseball:
The typical travel team is formed around the sons of the team’s coaches. Most teams tend to have a core of four or five players (the coaches’ sons) who are not necessarily the most talented players on the team. These players are typically surrounded by more talented players though the ‘core players’ (i.e., coaches sons) receive the bulk of the playing time and thus the bulk of the exposure.
My son was involved with travel baseball between the ages of 11 and 14. From his experience with travel ball I would generally say that my son had better competition than what was offered by the local Little League or the local American Legion program – in fact the local American Legion program has not been able to field a team for the past ten years because the local baseball players play on travel teams or ‘elite’ baseball teams in a hope to be ‘seen’ by college coaches.
I noticed that most travel baseball players are predominantly white and financially from upper middle class/upper class families. When helping out with my son’s teams I coined the phrase, “Country Club Baseball”, this because only players whose parents can financially afford to pay are playing travel baseball and the talented players from lower income families are left out of the mix, not exposed to college coaches, not known to high school coaches, generally overlooked and thus look into less expensive sports and/or just stop playing baseball altogether.
Of the sixteen travel players on my son’s 14U team whose parents invested large sums of money, seven are now playing college baseball as freshmen.
Showcase Baseball:
My son was involved with showcase baseball at the age of 17. And again it was predominantly for only baseball players who were from financially upper middle class/upper class families – again there are very few Black or Hispanic players attending these showcases. Though my son was able financially to participate in the showcase experience it seemed that most players attending were already being ‘touted’ by the scouts in attendance who typically did not veer from their lists of prospects.
In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments.
Politics:
In the county where I reside it became clear to me during my son’s freshman year of high school that two local high school coaches dictated who was worthy of the local high school baseball accolades.
In my son’s four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while less talented, but highly ‘touted’ players moved on to college baseball.
At my son’s own high school many of the players who make the team are those whose fathers have influence with the high school coach. In the past years many talented middle school players have opted to play other sports because they know that the chances of them making the high school baseball team are not as much about baseball ability or potential, but more about if they are well connected in the local baseball community and ‘touted’.
Today most high school baseball coaches can’t or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community.
For example: My son graduated from high school in 2009. He has the size (6’ 0” / 220 lbs), the statistics (BA .461; HR 3; and RBIs 21), the grades (GPA 3.5 with 7 AP Courses) and a passion for the game and he was named to the All-District 1st and 2nd Teams and the All County Team.
But still with all of this he received no real attention for college baseball with the exception of D3 programs which offer only academic scholarships, if any. The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not ‘touted’ by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the county. My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply.
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
Money:
As with the rest of our society, money is the driver of the current baseball development system and scouting system. Only those players who can afford to market themselves through travel ball or baseball showcases will have any real chance to get noticed and move on. Talented players without the finances needed to attend showcases or play travel baseball already know this and typically can’t compete politically against their peers in high school because the high school coaches do not know who they are or do not take the time to develop baseball talent any more.
Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and 'touted' these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players.
Playing baseball in college seems to be less about baseball talent these days and more about getting your name 'touted' with or without talent. The days of finding a diamond in the rough are over – it’s just not cost effective any longer.
Long, and very opinionated, for someone's first post. I must say, this is one of the most cynical posts I think I've ever seen from a first time poster.
PWREDS, welcome to high school baseball web, it's a great site, one where you can exchange ideas and opinions with many experienced people from all walks of life who have a passion for baseball. That said, I don't think you're going to find a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint, or Coach Milburns. Are you one and the same, or brothers? The impression I get is that the grapes taste pretty sour to you.
Sounds like to me that PWREDS told a very real story, what is wrong with that "06catcherdad"?
There are two sides of the fence, maybe the other side will start to be told for all to review and be more informed that its not all roses as everyone wants to make it out to be.
More information for all to review so they can make an more informed decision with the most recent information available.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Milburn:
The perception is that the hsbaseballweb is so one-sided, please allow others to share the other side of the fence, if they elect to do so.
Coach, you will reach my status when you have this tapped a few times.
Peace out
In my observation, there are many who give up on travel ball because they are unable to find an affordable, class vehicle. And many of them go to Legion ball over their summers.
So, I genuinely appreciate the efforts of those like Coach Milburn who do their very best to make that a solid experience and to generate exposure for and interest in those players who may otherwise go overlooked.
But if you then go so far as to tar every travel program with the brush of being just for the country club set, that just ain't true. If it's all you see and all you hear about, your field of vision is not very broad.
There are in fact many low-cost options out there for players with college or pro aspirations. The only thing is, you have to make the cuts to be on those teams. And if you don't, it may well be that the only options left for you are those that force you to pay through the nose. At that point, it's up to you to decide whether the money is well spent, or whether someone is taking your cash to keep alive a dream that may or may not ever come to fruition. I have to admit, I do see that a lot, but the problem is not in the travel programs, it's in the minds of people who think that the only thing standing between junior and his scholarship is mom and dad spending enough money.
One thing that you should always do is begin with an evaluation from someone you trust but someone who is also candid. And then you have to be kind to that person if the news you hear is not as encouraging as you had hoped. The reality is that not everyone has the talent to move on to the next level. If you ignore every sign out there that your kid is in that number, then you are likely to be disappointed at the end of the day.
All that being said, if you want to spend money just to enjoy the opportunity to play baseball for as long as it lasts, have at it, you certainly have my blessing! But don't think that just because you paid thousands for instruction sessions and team fees that your son is getting screwed if he doesn't get a scholarship deal. If he doesn't hit well, doesn't run well and doesn't throw hard, it may not be in the cards.
Remember, most college players were dominant players at the HS level. If your son is just sort of average on his HS team, take that to heart. Let him enjoy the game here and now without trying to make it something it's not.
So, I genuinely appreciate the efforts of those like Coach Milburn who do their very best to make that a solid experience and to generate exposure for and interest in those players who may otherwise go overlooked.
But if you then go so far as to tar every travel program with the brush of being just for the country club set, that just ain't true. If it's all you see and all you hear about, your field of vision is not very broad.
There are in fact many low-cost options out there for players with college or pro aspirations. The only thing is, you have to make the cuts to be on those teams. And if you don't, it may well be that the only options left for you are those that force you to pay through the nose. At that point, it's up to you to decide whether the money is well spent, or whether someone is taking your cash to keep alive a dream that may or may not ever come to fruition. I have to admit, I do see that a lot, but the problem is not in the travel programs, it's in the minds of people who think that the only thing standing between junior and his scholarship is mom and dad spending enough money.
One thing that you should always do is begin with an evaluation from someone you trust but someone who is also candid. And then you have to be kind to that person if the news you hear is not as encouraging as you had hoped. The reality is that not everyone has the talent to move on to the next level. If you ignore every sign out there that your kid is in that number, then you are likely to be disappointed at the end of the day.
All that being said, if you want to spend money just to enjoy the opportunity to play baseball for as long as it lasts, have at it, you certainly have my blessing! But don't think that just because you paid thousands for instruction sessions and team fees that your son is getting screwed if he doesn't get a scholarship deal. If he doesn't hit well, doesn't run well and doesn't throw hard, it may not be in the cards.
Remember, most college players were dominant players at the HS level. If your son is just sort of average on his HS team, take that to heart. Let him enjoy the game here and now without trying to make it something it's not.
I think that part of the problem is that there are kids who are better "high school" players than the others who are moving on to D1 programs. The parents see that their son has better stats or had a better junior season than others who are getting the deals.
In our area there were some players who moved up based mainly on running speed and pitching velocity. Their high school batting averages and ERA's were mediocre but they had the tangibles that recruiters seek.
The D1 parents spent a great deal of money showcasing them, so people think that they got the deal due to the money because they were not particularly stellar in high school. When the truth is, the money just made it easier to expose their exemplary running speed or 90+ pitching velocity.
In our area there were some players who moved up based mainly on running speed and pitching velocity. Their high school batting averages and ERA's were mediocre but they had the tangibles that recruiters seek.
The D1 parents spent a great deal of money showcasing them, so people think that they got the deal due to the money because they were not particularly stellar in high school. When the truth is, the money just made it easier to expose their exemplary running speed or 90+ pitching velocity.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
In my observation, there are many who give up on travel ball because they are unable to find an affordable, class vehicle. And many of them go to Legion ball over their summers.
So, I genuinely appreciate the efforts of those like Coach Milburn who do their very best to make that a solid experience and to generate exposure for and interest in those players who may otherwise go overlooked.
But if you then go so far as to tar every travel program with the brush of being just for the country club set, that just ain't true. If it's all you see and all you hear about, your field of vision is not very broad.
There are in fact many low-cost options out there for players with college or pro aspirations. The only thing is, you have to make the cuts to be on those teams. And if you don't, it may well be that the only options left for you are those that force you to pay through the nose. At that point, it's up to you to decide whether the money is well spent, or whether someone is taking your cash to keep alive a dream that may or may not ever come to fruition. I have to admit, I do see that a lot, but the problem is not in the travel programs, it's in the minds of people who think that the only thing standing between junior and his scholarship is mom and dad spending enough money.
One thing that you should always do is begin with an evaluation from someone you trust but someone who is also candid. And then you have to be kind to that person if the news you hear is not as encouraging as you had hoped. The reality is that not everyone has the talent to move on to the next level. If you ignore every sign out there that your kid is in that number, then you are likely to be disappointed at the end of the day.
All that being said, if you want to spend money just to enjoy the opportunity to play baseball for as long as it lasts, have at it, you certainly have my blessing! But don't think that just because you paid thousands for instruction sessions and team fees that your son is getting screwed if he doesn't get a scholarship deal. If he doesn't hit well, doesn't run well and doesn't throw hard, it may not be in the cards.
Remember, most college players were dominant players at the HS level. If your son is just sort of average on his HS team, take that to heart. Let him enjoy the game here and now without trying to make it something it's not.
This post by Midlo Dad is spot on, so I wanted to copy it in the hope that everyone would pay attention to what he said.
Brickhouse, to answer your question, I don't really agree with you, though I understand what you're saying. College coaches and pro scouts select players based on their evaluation of a players ability to play the game. They look at his 'tools' and see how he goes about playing the game. High School batting averages and ERA are somewhat subjective, as the level of competition from team to team, and league to league, isn't consistent, nor are the decisions of scorekeepers. My son played on a high school team where during his senior year (which he missed due to an elbow injury) the scorekeeper was a reserve player who some of the starters really intimidated. That kid was terrified to call an error an error with some of our kids at the plate. He knew they'd give him hell if he did, so he'd call it a base hit when an infielder booted a ball. People who evaluate talent may notice a kid's stats, but only in a cursory sense, and they won't make any decisions based on those stats. They do make decisions by watching a kid play, and then learing more about him and his ability to compete at higher levels. No matter how much a parents spends, if the kid can't play, he ain't gonna move on, at least not very far.
Coaches at the higher levels and scouts too, have to see a player play, and they do select the best players to move on. It is not at all common for a truly skilled player to not find an opportunity to play college baseball. If he doesn't get that far, odds are overwhelming that he lacked skill; either on the field or in the classroom.
In the case that I am referring to, we are talking about players in the same league against the same competition. I guess the word "better" needs to be defined.
Is better, the right handed pitcher who throws in the low 80's, can spot his breaking ball, was undefeated in the regular season, won two playoff games, was the number one pitcher on a final four state playoff team, and most of his starts were complete games? This pitcher was also named the area's player of the year.
Or is better, a sub .500 pitcher who never threw a complete game, never won a playoff game, had a poor walks to innings pitched ratio, and was eratic with his breaking ball? By the way, this kid consistently throws over 90mph.
As I am sure that you alreay guessed, the first pitcher is pitching on a state junior college team. The second pitcher had several D1 offers and is playing on a D1 team with a 90% scholarship at a private school.
Is better, the right handed pitcher who throws in the low 80's, can spot his breaking ball, was undefeated in the regular season, won two playoff games, was the number one pitcher on a final four state playoff team, and most of his starts were complete games? This pitcher was also named the area's player of the year.
Or is better, a sub .500 pitcher who never threw a complete game, never won a playoff game, had a poor walks to innings pitched ratio, and was eratic with his breaking ball? By the way, this kid consistently throws over 90mph.
As I am sure that you alreay guessed, the first pitcher is pitching on a state junior college team. The second pitcher had several D1 offers and is playing on a D1 team with a 90% scholarship at a private school.
"My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply."
So VCU does not recruit the best players they can find and sign they only recruit the players with inside connections. Very interesting indeed.
"Today most high school baseball coaches can't or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community."
Its up to the player to develop himself. If your banking on three months of high school baseball to develop you into a college level player your in for a rough ride. Especially if your a raw baseball talent.
"In my opinion many of the "touted" players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players that they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."
This is the doozy of all doozies. In your opinion that might have been the case. Guess what , what you think doesnt matter to the college coaches and scouts in attendance. Scouts and coaches get paid to id and sign the most talented kids they can find. And no, many talented players are not overlooked at these showcase events.
"In my son's four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while the less talented, but highly "touted" players moved on to college baseball."
This is so pathetic. The best players are easy to spot if your not wearing rose colored glasses so thick you are blinded completely. They stand out like a sore thumb in high school baseball. Their arm strength , speed , power , ability to hit , fielding ability , ability to play the game stands out clearly. And they are the ones that are highly touted because they are the best players.
"The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not "touted" by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the country."
So your son was blackballed by two local high school coaches? To the point that he was not heavily scouted? What showcase events did he attend? What college camps did he attend? Did you not contact Coach Milburn? And you really posted all of this? And you really believe all of this?
"Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and "touted" these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players."
Not given the chance to play and develop? Usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players?
So what is your answer to all of this? I know. Many more excuses. A very real story indeed. One that is heard and played out way too often. And as Coach Milburn stated "More information for all to review so they can make an more informed decision with the most recent information." More excuses and more sour grapes is nothing new Coach. Its just the same old recycled garbage that gets spewed by those that look for excuses and ways to blame other people.
How about this? You work your butt off and you become the best player you can be. You overcome whatever obstacles you have to overcome and you focus on what you can do. And when you find yourself in a tough situation you look for solutions not excuses. And when you feel the need to blame someone look in the mirror first. That is where you will usually find the answer to your questions.
I have never had ONE hs player play for me that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball. I have never known one kid that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball because he was not highly "touted." Maybe because he has some issues. But never because he was not highly touted.
So if we are going to make sure everyone gets both sides of the story and both sides of the fence let this be my side of the fence. I can live with my side. I will never be able to live with the side of the fence that believes others hold their destiny in their hands. Get real.
Share on. No grief. If the shoe doesnt fit dont wear it. You have expressed your point of view coach. Share as much as you like of course. Now if you want to share your point of view with no response just say so. But I will call it as I see it. And so can you. And if you hold the same beliefs as PW just say so. That should pretty much put the final nail in your coffin as far as any credibility in my eyes.
So VCU does not recruit the best players they can find and sign they only recruit the players with inside connections. Very interesting indeed.
"Today most high school baseball coaches can't or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community."
Its up to the player to develop himself. If your banking on three months of high school baseball to develop you into a college level player your in for a rough ride. Especially if your a raw baseball talent.
"In my opinion many of the "touted" players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players that they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."
This is the doozy of all doozies. In your opinion that might have been the case. Guess what , what you think doesnt matter to the college coaches and scouts in attendance. Scouts and coaches get paid to id and sign the most talented kids they can find. And no, many talented players are not overlooked at these showcase events.
"In my son's four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while the less talented, but highly "touted" players moved on to college baseball."
This is so pathetic. The best players are easy to spot if your not wearing rose colored glasses so thick you are blinded completely. They stand out like a sore thumb in high school baseball. Their arm strength , speed , power , ability to hit , fielding ability , ability to play the game stands out clearly. And they are the ones that are highly touted because they are the best players.
"The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not "touted" by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the country."
So your son was blackballed by two local high school coaches? To the point that he was not heavily scouted? What showcase events did he attend? What college camps did he attend? Did you not contact Coach Milburn? And you really posted all of this? And you really believe all of this?
"Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and "touted" these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players."
Not given the chance to play and develop? Usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players?
So what is your answer to all of this? I know. Many more excuses. A very real story indeed. One that is heard and played out way too often. And as Coach Milburn stated "More information for all to review so they can make an more informed decision with the most recent information." More excuses and more sour grapes is nothing new Coach. Its just the same old recycled garbage that gets spewed by those that look for excuses and ways to blame other people.
How about this? You work your butt off and you become the best player you can be. You overcome whatever obstacles you have to overcome and you focus on what you can do. And when you find yourself in a tough situation you look for solutions not excuses. And when you feel the need to blame someone look in the mirror first. That is where you will usually find the answer to your questions.
I have never had ONE hs player play for me that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball. I have never known one kid that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball because he was not highly "touted." Maybe because he has some issues. But never because he was not highly touted.
So if we are going to make sure everyone gets both sides of the story and both sides of the fence let this be my side of the fence. I can live with my side. I will never be able to live with the side of the fence that believes others hold their destiny in their hands. Get real.
Share on. No grief. If the shoe doesnt fit dont wear it. You have expressed your point of view coach. Share as much as you like of course. Now if you want to share your point of view with no response just say so. But I will call it as I see it. And so can you. And if you hold the same beliefs as PW just say so. That should pretty much put the final nail in your coffin as far as any credibility in my eyes.
I am on Coach May's side of the fence.
quote:Is better, the right handed pitcher who throws in the low 80's, can spot his breaking ball, was undefeated in the regular season, won two playoff games, was the number one pitcher on a final four state playoff team, and most of his starts were complete games? This pitcher was also named the area's player of the year.
Or is better, a sub .500 pitcher who never threw a complete game, never won a playoff game, had a poor walks to innings pitched ratio, and was eratic with his breaking ball? By the way, this kid consistently throws over 90mph.
This is a fair question and one where the truthful answer is not always appreciated.
The kid who throws low 80's but can spot his pitches -- the question is, is he going to progress? Is he "projectable"? Has he reached his ceiling, or could he potentially still grow, especially in velocity? Because I hate to tell you, but while low 80's can do the job in high school, guys who throw it that hard tend to get absolutely pummeled in D-1 college ball. It is an application of the Peter Principle to baseball. And while I realize that the dad of this kid never wants to hear it, it's still true, and his son's recruiting woes reflect this reality. D-1 teams are often littered with the kid who was a HS stud but who never stepped up to the next level, who ends up on the bench, or buried in the bullpen, or even cut from the team.
The kid who throws 90+ though -- maybe he has a HS coach who doesn't know diddly squat about teaching the art of pitching. This guy has the natural ability. If he has the attitude to learn and to work hard, he could become something big. Maybe he will take to the role of middle reliever or even closer -- roles his HS coach never let him try. Maybe he could make a mechanical adjustment here or there and start hitting spots. Maybe he had a situation like my son had his sophomore year of HS, when his doofus coach insisted on calling curves in every count despite having the 90+ stuff there to go to, and the kid needs to get someone who knows their head from a hole in the ground calling pitches for him. In short, this kid may, or may not, have what it takes to step up his game to the next level. Someone may take him on, not as a guaranteed stud, but as a project. So yes, I would indeed expect this kid to fare better in the recruiting process.
Ideally you'd like to have both qualities -- the MPH of the second guy and all the fine attributes of the first guy. Those guys are rare, but when they surface they are highly sought after, and they command 70-90% deals. After that, the college coaches are looking for that guy they're going to spend 40-50% on, and one of the boys described above is more likely to pan out than the other.
So the reason that pitcher # 2 gets more attention has absolutely nothing to do with who he knows, how much he paid his summer team, how much he showcased, or anything like that. It comes down to the reality of who is more likely to succeed in college ball, and the coach applying the knowledge he has accumulated from years of experience to his evaluations and decisions.
Midlo Dad - I agree 100% with your reasoning. At the same, given human nature, I can see how disheartened a parent, such as pitcher number 1's, could be after they have had a cold hard splash of reality right after having a delusions of grandeur season.
The problem is that many parents aren't aware of knowledge sharing resources such as this one, so they don't have guided expectations. Reading the realities of recruiting and many threads on this site should be done during the player's freshman season, as opposed to after a junior or senior year after the ship has already sailed.
The problem is that many parents aren't aware of knowledge sharing resources such as this one, so they don't have guided expectations. Reading the realities of recruiting and many threads on this site should be done during the player's freshman season, as opposed to after a junior or senior year after the ship has already sailed.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
"My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply."
So VCU does not recruit the best players they can find and sign they only recruit the players with inside connections. Very interesting indeed.
"Today most high school baseball coaches can't or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community."
Its up to the player to develop himself. If your banking on three months of high school baseball to develop you into a college level player your in for a rough ride. Especially if your a raw baseball talent.
"In my opinion many of the "touted" players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players that they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."
This is the doozy of all doozies. In your opinion that might have been the case. Guess what , what you think doesnt matter to the college coaches and scouts in attendance. Scouts and coaches get paid to id and sign the most talented kids they can find. And no, many talented players are not overlooked at these showcase events.
"In my son's four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while the less talented, but highly "touted" players moved on to college baseball."
This is so pathetic. The best players are easy to spot if your not wearing rose colored glasses so thick you are blinded completely. They stand out like a sore thumb in high school baseball. Their arm strength , speed , power , ability to hit , fielding ability , ability to play the game stands out clearly. And they are the ones that are highly touted because they are the best players.
"The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not "touted" by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the country."
So your son was blackballed by two local high school coaches? To the point that he was not heavily scouted? What showcase events did he attend? What college camps did he attend? Did you not contact Coach Milburn? And you really posted all of this? And you really believe all of this?
"Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and "touted" these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players."
Not given the chance to play and develop? Usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players?
So what is your answer to all of this? I know. Many more excuses. A very real story indeed. One that is heard and played out way too often. And as Coach Milburn stated "More information for all to review so they can make an more informed decision with the most recent information." More excuses and more sour grapes is nothing new Coach. Its just the same old recycled garbage that gets spewed by those that look for excuses and ways to blame other people.
How about this? You work your butt off and you become the best player you can be. You overcome whatever obstacles you have to overcome and you focus on what you can do. And when you find yourself in a tough situation you look for solutions not excuses. And when you feel the need to blame someone look in the mirror first. That is where you will usually find the answer to your questions.
I have never had ONE hs player play for me that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball. I have never known one kid that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball because he was not highly "touted." Maybe because he has some issues. But never because he was not highly touted.
So if we are going to make sure everyone gets both sides of the story and both sides of the fence let this be my side of the fence. I can live with my side. I will never be able to live with the side of the fence that believes others hold their destiny in their hands. Get real.
Share on. No grief. If the shoe doesnt fit dont wear it. You have expressed your point of view coach. Share as much as you like of course. Now if you want to share your point of view with no response just say so. But I will call it as I see it. And so can you. And if you hold the same beliefs as PW just say so. That should pretty much put the final nail in your coffin as far as any credibility in my eyes.
Coach_May ... you are way-off base with your assumption. I am not PWREDS. He resides in NVA as I reside in Winchester. His story is what I describe within one of my posts = True.
But PWREDS and Coach Milburn are two different individuals.
You guys can try your darndest to smear me which is OK with me, because I know that I am only trying to keep (players/parents) more informed.
The truth so set you free and will always surface. I personally have NOTHING to hide and that is why I am so transparent.
Sorry that some are so sensitive, others actions do tell on themselves.
Folks, you have my contact info, give me a shout, I would be most happy to talk to anyone.
Respectfully shared,
Coach Milburn
Winchester, VA
Five.Four.Zero-Five.Three.Three-Nine.Four.Eight.Six
Have I stated that (players/parents) should go this organization or this organization?
But I did share my opinion about one organization which in my opinion is giving the best deal for the buck in this area.
Again, others reactions do tell on themselves.
But I did share my opinion about one organization which in my opinion is giving the best deal for the buck in this area.
Again, others reactions do tell on themselves.
quote:His story is what I describe within one of my posts = True.
Coach Milburn - what part of PWRED's story ring true? There must be a dozen contradictions in that story as Coach May pointed out. For example, do you agree that scouts only watch who they are told to watch? That two high school coaches determine who all the college players are going to be in that area? Without their blessing it is not possible to play at VCU? There are more sinister conspiracy theories here than truth imho.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
For example, do you agree that scouts only watch who they are told to watch?
I don't think they go out of their way to find people.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:quote:His story is what I describe within one of my posts = True.
Coach Milburn - what part of PWRED's story ring true? There must be a dozen contradictions in that story as Coach May pointed out. For example, do you agree that scouts only watch who they are told to watch? That two high school coaches determine who all the college players are going to be in that area? Without their blessing it is not possible to play at VCU? There are more sinister conspiracy theories here than truth imho.
Here you go ... straight from the horses mouth so-to-speak ... with this individuals opinion after watching the progress of this through high school over the last several years.
quote:---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: **************************
Date: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: hsbaseballweb
To: coachmilburn@gmail.com
I agree -- I lived this ridiculous process for way too long. Parents are d*a*m*e*d if they do and d*a*m*e*d if they don't put up the money for their sons to play at the so called "elite" level. Unfortunately for youth baseball these days, parents have to pay for their sons to play (i.e., Travel Ball and Showcases) and appear to be competitive to high school coaches.
I think these types of programs are what is hurting the development baseball players and I truly believe the baseball today is not getting the best players at the college level any longer; because many of those players have been weeded out of the process for financial reasons and not for talent reasons.
(******) played on the travel team which has now become (******************) program,. Our players only paid $135.00 for the summer.
Interestingly we played the (********************) and had them beat 4 - 0 after five innings; 4 -2 after six innings and the (***********) tied the game in the bottom of the seventh inning 4 - 4 because of two routine errors.
Coincidently we were never scheduled to play against the (****************) again -- because a $135.00 per player team made up of untouted players had just beat (with the exception of two last inning errors) a team of touted players whose parents were paying about $10,000 for their sons to play showcase baseball.
Travel ball and showcase ball is nothing more than a way for some coaches to get paid and to promote their own sons.
Today many players with potential who are not hooked up in the system are simply left to play in "lesser" leagues.
The problem is that the high school and college coaches have bought into this travel ball clearing house concept when they form up their teams. It's just too bad and totally unfair to the players who can not afford to pay for travel ball.
**********
This is starting to get old if not repetitive. First off, I can speak for our organization and a lot of others that use this forum and say we're willing to help people out financially.
If a family has financial problems and can't afford to play for me, talk to me! There's a way to work everything out. Whether the player travels with another family or coach, we work on off-setting the cost of player dues with service to the program etc, there are ways to do this.
Our goal is to help these kids play college ball at the best school for them. What we tell our kids is make sure it's a comfortable school for you (socially), an academically acceptable school for you, and lastly can you see yourself playing baseball there. We invest a lot of time into helping these young men on and off the field. We do not do this to make money. If people on this site think that someone can get wealthy from running a travel/showcase program they are sadly mistaken. Tournaments alone can cost $8,000+ if you enter more than one WWBA/PG event.
I think everyone on this site loves baseball and we want the kids to play the best possible baseball out there. We just all have different opinions on how to get that done. Doesn't mean we should start trashing how others do things, it's just different.
If a family has financial problems and can't afford to play for me, talk to me! There's a way to work everything out. Whether the player travels with another family or coach, we work on off-setting the cost of player dues with service to the program etc, there are ways to do this.
Our goal is to help these kids play college ball at the best school for them. What we tell our kids is make sure it's a comfortable school for you (socially), an academically acceptable school for you, and lastly can you see yourself playing baseball there. We invest a lot of time into helping these young men on and off the field. We do not do this to make money. If people on this site think that someone can get wealthy from running a travel/showcase program they are sadly mistaken. Tournaments alone can cost $8,000+ if you enter more than one WWBA/PG event.
I think everyone on this site loves baseball and we want the kids to play the best possible baseball out there. We just all have different opinions on how to get that done. Doesn't mean we should start trashing how others do things, it's just different.
You just have to like the bit about "we had them beat" and then they tied us due to two errors---what does that mean---errors are part of baseball
Excuses---Excuses--Excuses
Excuses---Excuses--Excuses
This is BS and insulting. Essentially I guess since my kid and is playing on a reputable travel team, it means I had connections... or I must be rich and simply write a check? Right?
Wrong. He got there by hard work.
Wrong. He got there by hard work.
It is also insulting to college coaches and scouts- these grapes are so sour you cannot even make wine out of them but you sure can WHINE !!!!
quote:Originally posted by greenmonstah:
This is BS and insulting. Essentially I guess since my kid and is playing on a reputable travel team, it means I had connections... or I must be rich and simply write a check? Right?
Wrong. He got there by hard work.
I 100% agree with you. Not a single one of our players gets on the team cause of Mommy and Daddy. It's all about the player. If he can play, is a good student and willing to work his tail off, then he is a player I want! If you don't meet those requirements, you can't play for us!
Coach Milburn - I don't believe it's possible to reason with this particular person in the e-mail who appears to have a tremendous cross to bare.
If his argument were merely that money is causing some kids to go unnoticed, then I would be sensitive to that argument. Even in this story however there seems to be contradictions and excuses. On one hand, his 135.00 team is every bit as talented as the 10,000 team "but for" the two routine errors. Do you see how that game is played? He continually finds another reason hiding under yet another rock.
What really animates this person to me seems to be the "touting" as that word continually comes up. Perhaps his son was not "touted" (to his liking) and that explains all the evil in the world?
greenmonstah - I agree with you that it is offensive e.g., yours got ahead due to politics, money, and connections while mine got ahead on hard work and talent. That is why these type of arguments never win because they only explain things from one person's "troubled" perspective imho.
If his argument were merely that money is causing some kids to go unnoticed, then I would be sensitive to that argument. Even in this story however there seems to be contradictions and excuses. On one hand, his 135.00 team is every bit as talented as the 10,000 team "but for" the two routine errors. Do you see how that game is played? He continually finds another reason hiding under yet another rock.
What really animates this person to me seems to be the "touting" as that word continually comes up. Perhaps his son was not "touted" (to his liking) and that explains all the evil in the world?
greenmonstah - I agree with you that it is offensive e.g., yours got ahead due to politics, money, and connections while mine got ahead on hard work and talent. That is why these type of arguments never win because they only explain things from one person's "troubled" perspective imho.
I did find this amusing. Maybe I learned something new.
I never knew there were "routine errors".
Maybe that explains why the team was in the shixtter.
I never knew there were "routine errors".
Maybe that explains why the team was in the shixtter.
while i'm not a fan of the p*****g and moaning. the part of the pwr thread that was what we are here for.
-------------------------------------------------
quote
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
----------------------------------------------------
a success story lost in a tirade. congratulations to the youg man.
-------------------------------------------------
quote
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
----------------------------------------------------
a success story lost in a tirade. congratulations to the youg man.
Perhaps the player in question was not a D-1 Talent--the player can only find that out by getting exposure--
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
while i'm not a fan of the p*****g and moaning. the part of the pwr thread that was what we are here for.
-------------------------------------------------
quote
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
----------------------------------------------------
a success story lost in a tirade. congratulations to the youg man.
Good post Midlodad!
Great point 20dad!
How long until baseball begins?
Great point 20dad!
How long until baseball begins?
Vicarious Dad you stated "I don't think they go out of their way to find people."
Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am an associate scout for Tampa. I have many friends that are also associate scouts and many friends who are full time scouts. You dont get ahead in this business by not going out of your way to find people. In fact you will not be around for long if you dont. Anyone can follow the kids that everyone is already on. That is very easy to do. The scouts that are successful go out of their way to find those kids that no one is already on. They go out of their way to see kids that have not been seen.
I spend many days a year traveling to baseball fields all over eastern NC looking at kids and looking for kids. So do many other people. When I go to a game I am hoping and praying that I see a kid who will catch my eye. I am looking for and hoping that someone will jump out at me. Maybe its a kid no one has seen before? Hopefully it is and I will be the first guy to turn a card on. Tunnel vision by a scout be it college or pro? Then they will not be around very long. The best thing a kid can have going for him is to have a kid on his team that everyone is on and everyone wants to see. Or be playing his team that day. Why? Because everyone of them is looking at everyone else on the field as well. And its an opportunity to get noticed.
Following the highly "touted" kids around does what for you as a scout? It gives you an opportunity to see that kid play. But it also gives you an opportunity to see every other kid play that day as well. I have been fortunate to find some very good players over the years. I will continue to try and find even more. My niche is going to the small schools in rural areas where maybe the word has not gotten out on some kids. The under the radar kids so to speak. The schools and areas off the beaten path so to speak. Many do the exact same thing.
Why in the world would you not go out of your way to find people? That is exactly what this is all about. And the great thing is a kid might not be a draftable guy right now. He may never be. But he may indeed be a good find for some college coach out there. And that information is passed along on a very frequent basis.
I get paid when I am the 1st guy to turn a card in on a kid. And then that kid signs with us. So it is very important for me to get out there and do everything I can to find kids. I also get paid but not in dollars when I see a kid that can help someone and I make a call to a coach about him and it works out. And maybe that college coach down the road turns me on to a kid no one is on. The baseball world gets smaller and smaller the longer your son plays.
Some programs make a living on finding these players. They can not compete for the top ranked highly "touted" players at least enough to field a competitive team. So they work very hard to find these players. Alot of people work very hard to find these players at all levels of play college and above.
Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am an associate scout for Tampa. I have many friends that are also associate scouts and many friends who are full time scouts. You dont get ahead in this business by not going out of your way to find people. In fact you will not be around for long if you dont. Anyone can follow the kids that everyone is already on. That is very easy to do. The scouts that are successful go out of their way to find those kids that no one is already on. They go out of their way to see kids that have not been seen.
I spend many days a year traveling to baseball fields all over eastern NC looking at kids and looking for kids. So do many other people. When I go to a game I am hoping and praying that I see a kid who will catch my eye. I am looking for and hoping that someone will jump out at me. Maybe its a kid no one has seen before? Hopefully it is and I will be the first guy to turn a card on. Tunnel vision by a scout be it college or pro? Then they will not be around very long. The best thing a kid can have going for him is to have a kid on his team that everyone is on and everyone wants to see. Or be playing his team that day. Why? Because everyone of them is looking at everyone else on the field as well. And its an opportunity to get noticed.
Following the highly "touted" kids around does what for you as a scout? It gives you an opportunity to see that kid play. But it also gives you an opportunity to see every other kid play that day as well. I have been fortunate to find some very good players over the years. I will continue to try and find even more. My niche is going to the small schools in rural areas where maybe the word has not gotten out on some kids. The under the radar kids so to speak. The schools and areas off the beaten path so to speak. Many do the exact same thing.
Why in the world would you not go out of your way to find people? That is exactly what this is all about. And the great thing is a kid might not be a draftable guy right now. He may never be. But he may indeed be a good find for some college coach out there. And that information is passed along on a very frequent basis.
I get paid when I am the 1st guy to turn a card in on a kid. And then that kid signs with us. So it is very important for me to get out there and do everything I can to find kids. I also get paid but not in dollars when I see a kid that can help someone and I make a call to a coach about him and it works out. And maybe that college coach down the road turns me on to a kid no one is on. The baseball world gets smaller and smaller the longer your son plays.
Some programs make a living on finding these players. They can not compete for the top ranked highly "touted" players at least enough to field a competitive team. So they work very hard to find these players. Alot of people work very hard to find these players at all levels of play college and above.
Coach, I know that I am veering off of the topic, but this may also help prove your point. Do you receive any additional compensation as an associate scout if a player who you refer makes it to the majors? If you do not care to answer that I understand. I just want to understand if there was an even greater motivation for a scout to look under every rock, so to speak.
Coach May,
My ears are ringing with what bbscout told me and posted on this site about scouting and finding players.
In a sense what he said was comforting and anxiety provoking since my questions to him were about a DIII kid getting drafted.
As best I can recall, his response and post was scouts get paid to find every kid who can play. If they don't, they get fired.
bbscout didn't candy coat most of his posts on this site. What he was saying was if a kid has the talent and tools to play in Mlb/Milb, scouts put their career on the line if they miss.
Their job/career is don't miss.
What he didn't need to say was if your son isn't drafted, his talent didn't warrant it in the eyes of the scouting community.
You can blame everyone and everything but baseball is a game of talent and eventually, every player and every parent finds that out.
My ears are ringing with what bbscout told me and posted on this site about scouting and finding players.
In a sense what he said was comforting and anxiety provoking since my questions to him were about a DIII kid getting drafted.
As best I can recall, his response and post was scouts get paid to find every kid who can play. If they don't, they get fired.
bbscout didn't candy coat most of his posts on this site. What he was saying was if a kid has the talent and tools to play in Mlb/Milb, scouts put their career on the line if they miss.
Their job/career is don't miss.
What he didn't need to say was if your son isn't drafted, his talent didn't warrant it in the eyes of the scouting community.
You can blame everyone and everything but baseball is a game of talent and eventually, every player and every parent finds that out.
Yes I do Brickhouse.
Were do you go to see if a card has been turned in for a specific player within ea. club?
A $50 subscription to Baseball America will tell you all about the prospects that everyone knows about. No scouting directors hire scouts that are just going to follow the guys that everybody else is following. What seperates the elite organizations is finding gems later in the draft or finding lower profile international free agents who have some projection and who can develop into big leaugers. Some will cause those types of "finds" just dumb luck...I would call it some scout somewhere saw that kid play, liked what he saw, and then had the cojones to go to bat for the kid because he thought the kid could play.
A lot of times it's also going to mean that someone like Coach May saw a kid play very early and saw that he was someone to keep an eye on. Then that scout followed that kid and saw him play as often as possible and that scout knows that the kid may not be hyped but he can play. Again, that scout has to have the stones to say "I think the other scouts are wrong". Scouts are hired and/or fired based on the players they recommend. A scout who only recommends the players everyone else knows about is not going to be employed for long. Why? Because why would I pay a scout if I can just subscribe to BA and get the info I need?
The thought that scouts don't make the extra effort to find players is absurd. Finding those players is their only job security (I believe most scouts still work on year to year contracts, so if you don't find players, you are not retained). What's more likely is that the folks who make these complaints really have no idea what it takes to play at the MLB or MiLB level. That is my opinion at least.
A lot of times it's also going to mean that someone like Coach May saw a kid play very early and saw that he was someone to keep an eye on. Then that scout followed that kid and saw him play as often as possible and that scout knows that the kid may not be hyped but he can play. Again, that scout has to have the stones to say "I think the other scouts are wrong". Scouts are hired and/or fired based on the players they recommend. A scout who only recommends the players everyone else knows about is not going to be employed for long. Why? Because why would I pay a scout if I can just subscribe to BA and get the info I need?
The thought that scouts don't make the extra effort to find players is absurd. Finding those players is their only job security (I believe most scouts still work on year to year contracts, so if you don't find players, you are not retained). What's more likely is that the folks who make these complaints really have no idea what it takes to play at the MLB or MiLB level. That is my opinion at least.
quote:Originally posted by azallan:
Were do you go to see if a card has been turned in for a specific player within ea. club?
You don't and not sure what this has to do with the topic.
Sorry, was just woundering. It was mentioned in a post above.