Is it too soon to start discussion about Summer Baseball?

Always tough to tell about the summer teams. Some kids who don't start too well during the school season really come into their own on the summer diamonds. I have to believe that Londonderry, Keene, Hudson, and Sweeney will be decent this summer for Legion.
I don't know about the competition in senior babe, but the Central Orange, Big Blue and one of the Nashua teams do well in that league.
Don't know about the NEAAU, first I have heard of it. Who is running it and am I the only one who thinks AAU is trying to replace high school sports?

I would have to say that the top teams this summer for legion are Hudson, Londonderry, Keene, Portsmouth, and Laconia. All of these teams have very deep pitching staffs along with very good lineups too. Portsmouth gets to show off its muscle by playing against some of the top Class L teams during the summer. Legion can be very different than High School depending on how many college players teams have coming back and what schools filter in to the Post's. A lot of the smaller schools join with the bigger schools and have formed some very good teams in the past couple years. If Portsmouth returns a majority of their players from last year they will be very hard to beat.

Portsmouth's Legion team could struggle. They lost two of their top pitchers in Welch and Hart. Fransoso, Jones and Montville will not be returning. These three will be playing for select teams out of MA (www.ne-baseball.com) with extensive travel to NC, Georgia, Florida and NY.

Portsmouth will have a ton of young players who are going to good in a few years. What they lack in experience they will make up in their passion for baseball but my guess is they will over matched this season.

Let me tell you if you wanted to strengthen the Legion Leagues in NH, drop the number of teams, there is no way a league that is suppose to be elite should have as many kids playing in it as Legion does here in NH. You want more kids to play that is what Junior Legion is for, how many new teams started this year alone? I have heard rumors that Jutras might have to not field a team, that is bull****, this has been a solid program since I was in middle school and sadly that was 12 years ago, but they were stripped of Bedford and Goffstown. The State of NH needs to get on the same page and work towards creating the highest level of ball player here in NH. If anyone is listening at the very least no more new Legion teams we do not have the talent to support them.

As for AAU and High School, a player should not be doing both at the same time, high school has got to be the priority. Train with a team over the winter fine, join a team after the high school season is over, well in my opinion if you are good enough to wear a varsity jersey you should be playing against high school aged kids of similar talent. It is my understanding three of the top freshman and sophomores on Varsity rosters this past spring are joining 14 or 15 year old AAU teams.....Why? Can someone answer this for me?

I agree with Granite State about Legion. It is still the highest level of summer ball in the state and yet I feel it is getting watered down too much. Post 79 almost folded last summer and the Nashua Post was done for a year- these have been around forever. One of the big reasons being there are all these off-shoots from the older programs: Merrimack and the two you mention come to mind. Plus you now have to deal with AAU/travel teams.
It all boils down to politics in my opinion. People in these towns want more control over the ballplayers in their towns, so if you don't have a say in Manchester (or whatever town you are in)- start your own Legion team. Not sure that is the best idea.
About AAU. I had personal experience with that this year. Londonderry Legion wanted Carollo and Kinnon, but they had already paid their money for the AAU team they were on. What can you do at that point?

I would consider taking the loss and playing Legion and maybe joining up with your AAU squad on days that are not conflicts. I know the Hammerheads a player who at 14 is good enough to be playing Legion and Mike told him to go play Legion and if he felt like picking up extra games when there was no Legion game to come back.

I don't see the point of a varsity 14 year old beating up on 14U pitching all summer when they have the talent to play Legion or Sr. Babe Ruth, seems to be a stunt of their personal progression to me.

That would be great for me, I would love Carollo to be playing Legion, but I can't really tell someone to swallow however much money it is! I don't think he will regress at all, but I do think that he would get more out of Legion.

I believe one of the biggest problems with Legion as well is the lack of games. NH Legion is only requiring a 16 game schedule. Sixteen game is not enough for a ball player in the summer. Kids should be playing 30-50 games a summer. Adding teams to Legion also hurt their scheduling. Also, most legion teams in the state do not want to play more games than their districts require them to. I believe that the GSBA is starting to handle the problem with baseball in the fall, but we need to go back to the days when legion teams played 30-40 games during the course of the summer. That is part of the reason that my program, Big Blue and AAU does so well we offer the kids the opportunity to be on a baseball field almost every night. If Legion brought that back I don't think these other types of programs would succeed.

Good points. I know the Londonderry legion season is between 20-25 games which is a typical high school season. I would love to see Legion require 30+ games. At the same time at what point is it a quality vs. quanitity argument? Does it really do any good to be playing lower-level teams that are just on the schedule to fill it out?
The GSBA is a great organization that will get NH baseball on the map again! I like their idea of a supplimental league, coaches just need to get the word out!
Good luck with your season this summer!

i'm not sold on legion being the highest caliber ball in nh. well , at least not what it was/should be.

in portsmouth we are limited since our eastern boundery is the atlantic. not enough games, but also a lack of quality pitching. that runs in cycles though.

the state powers to be have dropped the ball on legion. i hope they do turn it around.
every one wants to play travel ball/aau, there aren't enough quality players to go around. so thats watered down as well.

i've seen things change over the last 10 yrs, not all for the better.

I agree, it is not what it once was- but the same can be said for baseball in general in New Hampshire. Considering all the current options my opinion is that Legion is at the top of the list. There are some excellent programs out there, like those mentioned above for example, but Legion is where most colleges look to.

I think it is a good sign that there are so many youth AAU teams popping up. While it surely waters down the talent on those teams, at the younger ages 12-14u these kids are playing 30-40 games and that is great we will probably see the impact of this additional experience in the coming years.

I didn't know that Legion only played 16 games. If there are so many more teams as you guys are saying should it be easier to schedule more games?

What is the status of Sr. Babe Ruth in New Hampshire? I know that there is a total of what, 2 teams, in the Manchester, Londonderry, Nashua, Merrimack area?

I agree with the quality v. quantity as well, but if they are playing other legion teams 30 times during a summer isn't that the quality we are looking for? The watered down talent is the problem, and the lack of wanting to play more games. Most Legion coaches in the state set their schedule between 20-25 games and refuse to play more games, I know because I have asked most of them. There are the few teams that are doing things right and are willing to play on every night of the week. There are very talented teams in the state, but most legion coaches don't want to stretch their pitching out because they don't have any due to the fact anyone can open a post. I know of a couple posts in the state that do break that 30 game mark every season and fill it with very good competition. Why can't the other teams in the state follow suit? Even if they are playing weaker competition you are still out on the field playing. Every spring the Sox open up against BC and Northeastern, that is clearly weaker competition, but the sox realize they want their guys facing live pitching. Dartmouth College played Plymouth State University every year. If the Red Sox and Dartmouth College both believe quantity is better than quality I would have to side with them. Swings are Swings, ground balls are ground balls, and fly balls are fly balls. We want NH to get better baseball they need to be playing everyday during the summer.

Growing up in Maine we had three Class A (same as L in NH) schools that boardered each other. These three schools and a couple smaller schools in the area made up the Mid-Coast Legion program. Each of these towns had a Senior Babe Ruth program. So the Legion team was the better team and maybe had 2-4 players from each school, all the other guys played on Sr. Babe Ruth. Although there were some players who might have been good enough to play on that Legion team but chose to play Sr. Babe for whatever reason. Seemed to be a recipe for success.

MC Legion drew from Morse, Brunswick, Mt. Arat, Lisbon, and maybe a few other small towns. Morse (Bath), Brunswick, Mt. Arat (Topsham), and Lisbon all had Sr. Babe Ruth teams.

In the past 5 years towns that had always been sending their players to Mid-Coast Legion and having the rest play Sr. Babe Ruth for some reason formed their own Legion teams. Brunswick and Mt. Arat (Topsham) both formed Legion teams and their Sr. Babe Ruth teams folded. I was told this weekend during my high school alumni events that the Bath Sr. Babe Ruth team also folded.

So now you have an area that use to pull four schools to form 1 competitive Legion team making 3 Legion teams that are not as competitive. The result seems to be less total players playing baseball, and the talent on Legion being not as comparable as it once was.

I am not very familar with the Summer Baseball Scene in New Hampshire but does this sound like a similar scenario?

Shipbuilder- sounds like an all-too-familiar scenario. Now we are starting to see some Posts fold due to lack of players. Much like pro sports NH summer baseball gets watered down (just like you have been saying) with the numerous teams that keep popping up.
Orange: Well said, I disagree only with one portion. The ground balls are ground balls, etc... The level of play is a huge factor in determining how beneficial it is to the players. If my Varsity team plays JV level competition the whole summer they are not getting any better. They are not getting tested or pushing themselves. If the level of play was not a factor in devloping players then why are there different levels in all baseball leagues (pro, semi, high school, GSBA, etc)?
A ground ball hit by a Varsity level kid is much different than a ground ball hit by a JV level kid. You see the difference in level of play when you go to a JV game.
I would take 3 games a week against higher level of competition than 6 games a week against weak teams.

I agree with Ironwill on the difference in the level of play. That again is why when the 14U player on the team I am helping us approached the coaches with the fact that he could play Legion we told him he should. The ball might be the same size, and the bases are all 90 ft but it is not the same.

I think that another reason that there are not enough games is because the summer season is so short...take this year's Legion season for example the season begins on June 15th and all district games must be completed by July 17th. This means that you must keep some dates open because all district games must be made up within 7 days of the rain out. Another major problem is that the season ends before August begins for many teams Legion and Sr Babe alike. This makes it very hard to schedule non-district games during the week in case of rain outs, and now add the fact that there are far too many teams which does water down posts.

I would love to schedule as many games as possible because that is how you get better you can take as many practice groundballs and swings as you want but nothing compares to live game speed. If the state were too extend the season into August I think a lot of these issues would be solved because teams would have more time to work with.

Here's a big downside to the "grounders are grounders, ABs are ABs argument": Relative strength of pitching. It is often the case that the superior team's superior pitching is such that there are an inordinate number of strikeouts and very few well hit balls or baserunners. Thus, the game turns out to be a waste of time. On the offensive side, the weaker pitching on the weaker team does not really help the hitter all that much more than a round of BP.

Another thing about the water down talent with too many teams can impact a pitcher. You have a talented pitcher who doesn't have the defense behind him he can lose confidence, throw too many pitchers when routine grounders and flys are misplayed, and start trying to strike everyone out, which can set back development.

I am partial to the Merrimack system having worked there and when I found out that Tommy Hudon who was an outstanding freshmen this year would be playing 14U ball this summer instead of Legion I was a bit dissapointed. I don't see the benefit to him to be playing against 8th graders all summer both offensively for the pitching he will face or as a pitcher.

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take this year's Legion season for example the season begins on June 15th and all district games must be completed by July 17th. This means that you must keep some dates open because all district games must be made up within 7 days of the rain out.
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i know the state tournement is a huge deal, but this is nut's. it's the same thing with LL and babe ruth, the season ends early to start all stars while the rest of the league is home. some of those kids sitting home could be late bloomers. they need to play more too.

i've never been an advocate of aau for kids under 13/14. i'd rather they have good practice 5 day's a week than play 30/40 games. not many ball's hit to you or ab's in a game, but that's my opinion.

i think nh baseball has gotten better in different way's. talent run's in cycles, coaching shouldn't.

I know the GSBA has a summer supplemental league that starts after legion and runs the rest of the summer and that you can enter your entire team into the league. I looked at the site: www.granitestatebaseball.org but don't see many teams in that division.

Maybe GSBA can touch on that league a little and if it is successful and why, why not.

Ironwill: I agree with what you are saying. That does make a lot of sense. What I am saying is that most summer teams do not practice so if they are only playing three games a week that is 4 days without baseball. Even if they do practice I agree with ABC it is better to get their practice in a game even if the competition is a little weaker, there is nothing wrong with playing teams just to fill your schedule if you already have your 20-25 games against strong opponents, as I said earlier the Red Sox do it, Dartmouth College does it and so do a lot of other Division 1, 2 and 3 programs.
ABC: You are absolutely right they need to extend the summer. Most legion coaches are not given the opportunity to extend their season, but there are still some coaches in the state that do not agree with you and even if they had the option would not extend their schedule.

So what do you guys recommend for a 15 YO player in NH? My son has played AAU for 3 years (currently playing 14U) and enjoys the competitive level and playing lots of games as well as practicing a lot... He played Middle School ball this season and will be trying out for JV next season (no freshman team in our town). Junior Babe Ruth is very watered down in our area. If there is a solid 15U AAU/travel team I assume that would be better than Babe Ruth. Should a 15 year old try out for Senior Babe Ruth/Legion teams? How is the talent level of Junior Legion? Not sure what the right option is.

Note that my son has an October birthdate so technically he will be 16 for Legion purposes next season due to their Jan.1 cutoff date.

I'd hate to pay $$$ for a travel team and then find out he would make a Senior Babe Ruth team against better competition...

TC

Personally I feel that if your son has the option of playing Senior Babe Ruth, Junior American Legion or American Legion that should be the route for him. I honestly believe the 15 year old team is a thing of the past. I just discussed this with the JV coach at Salem High School, a person who's opinion and views I respect. We both were saying how with Cal Ripken, AAU, Little League, Babe Ruth, American Legion and Senior Babe Ruth all changing cut off dates over the past 3 to 5 years, a player who would be condsidered a 15 year old 5 years ago could be considered a 14 year old today. I was coaching a 15 year old team three years ago and I actually had a player drive himself to Gill Stadium for our District Tournament, but this player in the eyes of Babe Ruth was 15. For this reason these players are moving up to Sr. Babe or Junior Legion. Because even though they are recognized by Babe Ruth as 15 these kids are Sophomores or even Juniors, what is the benefit to play against younger players? I look at those college players who return to their Legion or Sr. Babe Ruth teams in the same light, what benefit are they gaining? So I would say if you can get your son on a Junior Legion team or Senior Babe Ruth team that is your best choice, another option is to pick up with one of the GSBA summer teams in the Senior Division.

For the record Nashua has THREE Senior Babe Ruth teams and I think an American Legion Team also??

Legion teams & Senior Babe ruth teams do NOT have winter programs that the AAU type teams do. I think that is a big reason that kids tend to matriculate towards these programs. Plus the majority of these programs travel up and down the East coast playing in tournaments and facing the best kids from different parts of the country not just a kid from Keene or Portsmouth. The claliber of player they are facing is as good as or better then you'll find in Senior Babe Ruth or American Legion here in NH. I'm not knocking the summer leagues around here, heck my son will most likely go that route in a couple of years. NH has some talented kids but just look at the results of last weeks draft. How many of the 1500+ players drafted were true NH players who grew up here in NH...were there any? More then 5? I doubt more then 5. At a big tournament down south they will face probably 15 -20 kids just in that tournament that will be drafted out of high school.

As far as Hudon goes he plays for an AAU program that his High School coach (Anderson) runs. Seeing my son is also a 14U and will be playing Babe Ruth all-stars and Merrimack is in our district I'm not sad to see him focusing on AAU...lol. Makes it easier for Nashua (they did beat him last year as a 13U but he has improved greatly over the winter.)

Legion and Senior Babe Ruth is good solid baseball but if a player is really special his odds are bettered by playing on a good solid 17U AAU program that plays down south in the tournaments that the scouts and college coaches attend. That is what a bunch of the Portsmouth Legion kids have done this season. Plus they got good solid winter workouts in before the High School season.

what is your goal? to have fun and play? get a d1 scholarship? d3? represent your community?
i think a goal needs to be realistic, if everyone is playing travel ball, how good can it be?

i wonder if you looked at all the aau teams in nh over the years, how many ended up playing at a college they wouldn't have without aau.

i guess my point is for most good hs players, they'll play somewhere in college. there is a place for everyone. legion/sr. babe, (other than the conversations about to many teams) are very good options.

if you want to be seen by lots of college coaches, showcases make sense. not as costly as a travel team, most bang for your buck. but where is it you want to play?

redsox
i know of 3 portsmouth players playing travel ball. ironically for 3 different reason's. this will let younger kids get their feet wet.

Hudon pitches for the Bedford Black Flies not Anderson's team, Anderson works with the Souhegan Valley Saints.

Shows you what I know..lol. I was under the impression that Hudon was playing for the Saints, my bad! Was hoping to face him in a couple of weeks.

I'm not arguing that AAU is "the way to go" and the "end all be all". As I stated my son will most likely be going the Legion / SR Babe Ruth route. Which program is the stronger program? Legion ball or Senior Babe Ruth? My perception is that Legion ball would be the stronger program of the two but I could be way off.

AAU vs. Babe Ruth for 14 and under, I have coached both and to be honest my Babe Ruth team was far more talented than any AAU team I coached. My Babe Ruth team was made up of kids from the same town while my AAU teams were made up of players from around Southern New Hampshire. I really feel this arguement should be on a team by team basis and not on a league vs. league basis. I have had the misfortune of coaching against some of the biggest ****s while coaching AAU, not to say they do not have good coaches because there are some really great coaches in AAU but there are also great coaches in Babe Ruth. Basically an AAU patch does not equal a more talented player or team, that has to be proven on the field.

But to a point I made earlier, a varsity player should not be playing on a 14 or 15 year old AAU or Babe Ruth Team. These type of players should be on the Legion or Senior Babe Ruth teams in their area.

I can see your arguement as it pertains to someone like Hudon who is the exception rather then the rule. He has been physically mature since he was 11 or 12. Now as a 14U player he can probably hold his own and then some, with 18yr old players due to his early physical maturation. It wasn't until this past season though that he was able to harness his ability especially on the mound (due to winter workouts for AAU??). He always threw extremely hard but was wild, more wild then a normal hard throwing lefty usually is. So I can see your point for him this season as he had the opportunity to be a contributor as a freshman on Merrimack's Varsity team.

A kid from Nashua rarely ever gets the chance to play varsity ball as a freshman. The odds of that player making one of the three Senior Babe Ruth teams in Nashua are slim. Especially when there are 3 Class L high schools (BG, North & South) feeding those programs. So playing 14U AAU and/or Babe Ruth is the best route for playing after the school season is complete. For the smaller towns where kids get a chance to play varsity as Freshman I think it is to their advantage to play Legion or Senior Babe Ruth as the pool of players for those teams is smaller and the quality of play is obviously at a higher level.

I still contend though that the truly exceptional players should be playing for 17U select teams that travel down south for the big tournaments so that they can face the best kids their age and to be seen by the big college programs and many scouts. They also get winter work in as well. Unfortunately there are not many of those teams in New England at all and they can be quite costly to boot.

Why did Senior Babe Ruth get rid of the 16 year old state tournament? To be honest I feel like those who run Senior Babe Ruth here in New Hampshire need to take Junior Legion more serious or Senior Babe Ruth will become a thing of the past. Its too bad that those who run Legion and Senior Babe Ruth won't sit down and make some decisions on how to improve the overall quality of baseball played here in New Hampshire. Again I touch upon the topic of too many Legion Teams. We need a feeder system that pushes the top talent to one league with fewer teams. I would also like to see the college kids leave Legion ball.

What is "Junior Legion" ? Is this different then the regular Legion I see in the paper..Coffe Post 48 etc?? If so what is the age limits for it and is there one even in the Nashua area?

I still don't know which program is better Senior Babe Ruth or American Legion?

I always thought Legion was the best program after the HS season was complete. Here is the link for Jr Legion:

http://www.newhampshireamerica...l.com/baseball4.html

It seems there is not a Nashua team listed.

I'm hoping my son's AAU coach can assist on where my son would be eligible and what level of play he should be looking at next year. They seem pretty knowledgeable in this subject.

Do geographic locations exist for Jr. Legion and how do you find out where he would be eligible

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On the juice?. Orange juice!

Without a doubt, this is the best forum posting to date…worthy of Hot Stove honors, I hope it continues into the cold winter months.

Couple of thoughts if I may; why are kids playing summer ball at the 14 to 18 age level? First, they must love PLAYING the game or else they would be at the beach or hanging out at the pool. Second, they want to improve their skills and level of play. No question that competition is important for this, but coaching (and real mentoring) are equally if not more important. A good coach will see and correct flaws, inspire sportsmanship and foster a respect for the game. Thirdly, kids want to be seen (scouted) for college prospects.

Babe Ruth, Legion, or AAU all fulfill the playing the game. Coaching? I have seen some tip top coaching at AAU. Granite State shares that he has coached against some less than desirable AAU coaching opponents, but unfortunately we can find them from Cal Ripken Juniors through the most competitive leagues. Thank heavens (in my experience anyway) the good outnumber the bad. Finally, the kids want to be seen. Are your chances better being seen playing Senior Babe Ruth in NH or traveling throughout New England and New York on a quality AAU travel team? (My bet is on the travel team.)

A little anecdotal evidence to add to the mix - Concord’s Senior Babe Ruth Little Blue played the Concord U- 14 AAU team this past Saturday; two great games. In the first, the AAU team took an 8-6 lead into the 7th inning against the high school players, but couldn’t hold on and lost 9-8. In the second game, the 8th and 9th graders beat their upper classmen opponents in another great contest, 5-4. Who is better, Babe Ruth or AAU? They meet again this Saturday at Memorial Field in Concord at 11:00 and another great chapter will undoubtedly be written.

whats the break down on the Concord SR. Babe Ruth team? How many of them are varsity players and how many are JV. I would think that the better players from Concord are playing in better leagues than Sr. Babe Ruth that the Concord team is watered down.