Is this true ?

norfrank: I recieved your pm. I apologize to you and your son. I did NOT intend to suggest he would lead my son to drinking. I simply said "I hope there is no pressure for kids to drink". I already had written that I take the younger Mr. Weaver at his word, that he is not that type of kid. Perhaps you wrote before you saw that response.

I did NOT, as you insinuate, rip into the player in question. I simply said I agree witht the rules and the punishment. I also expressed that a scenario of DUI is more serious than drinking at a party. I did NOT say I knew that it happened. I agree with your son, that people are innocent until they are proven guilty. I was commenting on what another poster wrote.

I hope this apology is acceeptable. I am looking forward to my son catching your son. Again, I said I hope there is no problem. Now my hopes are fulfilled because I trust you and your son and take you at your word.

Again, I never condemed the player personally. I was discussing the problem of drinking and rules generally. I also still disagree that it is OK to be there even if you are not drinking. I told your son I "respectfully disagreed" with him. Perhaps what I added about the pressure was out of line, but again, I am sorry. I really didn't feel I was ripping your son or the player. Sometimes the posts run together and it seems like personal attacks.

I re read what I originally wrote and it was much more binine than the Weaver's, father and son took it. I said I hope Mr, Weaver looks out for my kid and doesn't put pressure on him..." That is not accusing anyone of anything. I think you might have been over sensetive due to other posters. I also had accepted Weaver's statement that he doesn't do that stuff before father and son PM and accused me in a thread of saying he is a drinker that infuences others. Also, I never mentioned the playr in any of my posts.

My apology stands. I don't want any issues between teammates families or the sons. I just don't think I did anything that should have triggered the response in the first place.

As The World Turns

Agree with Norfrank.

Talk about going off topic. CPLZ, give this thread a proper burial.

For those who are worried about the young man's future, I don't believe his baseball career is over. He is talented enough that he will be given another chance by someone. He may have to prove to some people that he is worth another chance, but we are not those people. I wish him well as he goes forward.

Regarding this thread, I think that this discussion is worthwhile. It is an important topic, but it could be moved away from this particular incident and be discussed in more general terms. But it is an issue faced by all high school (and college) players and their parents. There are many educators, parents, coaches, and students here who all have insightful opinion on this. I, for one, am interested in hearing them.

Mike F

Oh, and Bballdad1954, I'm sure you didn't realize it, but PM stands for Private Message. If someone sends you a Private Message they most likely prefer the discussion to be Private.

Thanks for the input. He spcifically asked for a public apology in his private massage (PM).

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Mike F...


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Mike F, that's the point. There is no longer a worthwhile discussion. Just read the current page of Father vs player nonsense. And all of this is taking place at the expense of a 17 yr old who messed up. Listen, he and his Father have posted on this forum, and out of respect for them, I think this thread has more than run its course. The valid part of this discussion was over a couple of days ago. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:

quote:

parents handing over rights to academics, many of whom have never raised children of the age they are disciplining

CPLZ, are you serious, so how do teachers handle the discipline withing their own classrooms, at that how did you ever come to send your son/daughter to high school knowing that they might be disciplined by someone who has never raised a child of the high school age. Right and wrong is not about age, quit skirting the issue.

Playball2,
You are misrepresenting or misunderstanding what I've said. Discipline belongs in the schools hands at school or school related events. I have never said anything contrary to that. Your pulling that portion of a quote out is a classic case of attribution out of context.

I don't believe the school, whose primary and only responsibility should be education of children, should be reaching out into the community and pulling community issues into the school, and then passing judgment and handing out discipline, for issues wholly unrelated to anything at the school or educational.

I don't know what you are referring to when you claim I am skirting any issue. I tend to be very direct by nature and am not afraid of voicing an unpopular opinion.

.

The original question, Is this true?, was substantially answered when the decision made by the Neuqua Valley HS administrators became public.

We don't know what the truth is, but we know that the administrators know the truth and they upheld the current rules regarding this type of situation. My hat is off to them.



Now if someone wants to discuss the merits of these rules in a new forum I think that would be worthy. In my opinion, the discussion of those rules here in this forum was worthy .

Perhaps stepping away from the celebrity of the Neuqua Valley HS situation will dispel some of the heated feelings and a lively, healthy, and informative discussion will flourish.

Anyone?


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quote:

Originally posted by norfrank:
My three sons let me remind you this is a 17 year old kid. He does not need his name all over search engines.

First, this young mans name is not used anywhere in this thread, so this thread would never show up in a search engine search of the young mans name.

As to those who think this thread should be taken down, I respectfully disagree and will allow it to stand as long as the dialogue remains civil and not overly redundant. It is a sharing of opinions on a subject that affects all people with interests in HS baseball. It is an important topic, as evidenced by the number of views and participation.

We are allowed strong opinions and hearty disagreements, as long as they are presented with respect.

quote:

I don't believe the school, whose primary and only responsibility should be education of children, should be reaching out into the community and pulling community issues into the school, and then passing judgment and handing out discipline, for issues wholly unrelated to anything at the school or educational.

I would understand that if the schools name was not across the chest of these athletes.

quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:

Perhaps stepping away from the celebrity of the Neuqua Valley HS situation will dispel some of the heated feelings and a lively, healthy, and informative discussion will flourish.

This is an excellent suggestion.

From this point forward, let's try to direct all further discussion to the general topics here and away from the specifics of any individual...

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:

quote:

I don't believe the school, whose primary and only responsibility should be education of children, should be reaching out into the community and pulling community issues into the school, and then passing judgment and handing out discipline, for issues wholly unrelated to anything at the school or educational.

I would understand that if the schools name was not across the chest of these athletes.

That argument holds water when the athlete is actually wearing that school name, not outside the sport or school activities.

People who say these kids are representing something larger are perverting the whole activity. This is a kid who wants to play baseball. He's not running for mayor, has no interest in town policy. He lifts weights, runs, is a good teammate, does what the coaches say, keeps his grades up. He's an athlete, or a dance team member, or a cheerleader, whatever the activity may be. People who say that there is more to it than that, usually do so because they want to retain some form of power or control over the individual that wouldn't be there without that perverse argument.

So what you are saying CPLZ is that a coach should have no say in how his team conducts themselves away from the field. If his team is known for partying all night long before games, he should have voice in trying to correct that?

CPLZ - thanks for being the voice of reason. This is an important discussion and one that can be had without accusations of personal attacks or whatever. People who find it too heated or are uncomfortable can turn to another topic.

I find myself hearing what you're saying and wanting to agree and then going "but...". Does it change your opinion at all that we're talking about kids engaging in illegal activity? If a kid were arrested outside of school for anything else - armed robbery, assault, carjacking - would you feel the school should just stay out of it and allow the player to continue on with the team? That's where I have an issue - do I want my son or daughter on a team with someone who is engaging in illegal activity? And what if your kid is a good kid who keeps his nose clean and sits the bench while the kid who gets in trouble all the time keeps playing... what kind of message do the other players take away from that?

And how about the issues of grades, attendance, appearance, etc. Why is it OK for the school to set a standard that says an athlete has to maintain a particular GPA and come to school on a regular basis or they are off the team? Many parents have argued that those things should not affect participation either - after all, they don't kick you out of school if you're failing or cutting class. There are consequences that you will face, but as an athlete you lose more than the non-athlete does. And a starter loses even more than a non-starter.

We're in the middle of revising our athletic code and have found many more sticky points than even two years ago when revisions were made. So this discussion is particularly relevant to our school.

I think there has been excellent discussion in this thread. It never appeared to me that the primary purpose of the thread was outing this particular player's name or adding to his embarrassment. I think CPLZ is doing a good job as the forum moderator btw. That said, don't let that go to your head Chip

In my original post, I skimmed over the details and missed one. I thought he was being punished under a drinking violation when it appeared he was not in fact drinking. I missed the part that there was a no-attendance policy in place as well. I am just like the next parent, I want to see the rules followed. Whether this rule is appropriate is a fair topic for discussion imho.

quote:

Originally posted by mythreesons:
Does it change your opinion at all that we're talking about kids engaging in illegal activity? If a kid were arrested outside of school for anything else - armed robbery, assault, carjacking - would you feel the school should just stay out of it and allow the player to continue on with the team?

My short answer would be no, it doesn't change my opinion. Why should there be additional penalty beyond what our well thought out, administered, and monitored justice system hands down as a penalty? Should we really trust a few individuals sitting around a table pontificating about how they can, "do more and do it better"? I think not.

Schools are and should be about education. Sports are about sports. Ripping a HS kid out of sports for something that is totally unrelated to school or sports seems not only unfair but not well thought out. That sport may be the one thing that keeps the kid in class, and isn't that the ultimate goal, to educate as many as much as possible? Take the kid away from the positive and motivating aspect of sport and what path options are left and where do you project that kid going??? It's very much a double edged sword, think about which way cuts the deepest?

The argument against protection of the "good kids", cuts the other way too. Who is left to show the wayward kid the way? Is it our job to turn our back on kids that make mistakes or is it our job to try and right that kids ship and put him around positive role models that get it done without error?

To me, the whole issue seems typical of a political land grab, where an entity likes to build its power base through attaining rights previously not granted. In this case, it's done under the guise of "best for the school", or "in the students best interest".

quote:

Originally posted by RRF8:
So what you are saying CPLZ is that a coach should have no say in how his team conducts themselves away from the field. If his team is known for partying all night long before games, he should have voice in trying to correct that?

Yes, that is what I am saying. The coach is responsible for what happens between the lines, when players are at school, or during school activities.

Your argument says, "he knows", well that's a pretty ambiguous term and IMHO puts far too much authority and interpretation in a teachers/coaches hands. Are all coaches great judges of reality? Are all coaches fair and just? The answer is coaches are the same cross section of society that the rest of us are, with good and bad character assets and defects. We shouldn't entrust that much power into ambiguous definitions with arbitrary judgment.

Our justice system is in place to handle matters of law and punishment.

I am getting a sense that I am to a great degree hijacking this thread. Because of that, I am going to sit back and watch for awhile and be non responsive to let it take its own direction.

CPLZ, have you ever withheld your son/daughter from an athletic event due to their behavior?

withheld or even leverage?

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:
CPLZ, have you ever withheld your son/daughter from an athletic event due to their behavior?

This question is inappropriate for this discussion as I have stated it should remain about the issues and not individuals/personalities.

While it may be private and you do not wish to discuss it, it is hardly irrelevant. It is at the heart of what the discussion/issue is all about. The fact that athletics is a priviledge and not a right. The fact that my children(11/9/7)years of age and my players represent something bigger than themselves (My Name/The School/The Program)and are expected to represent that value in the highest regard or there will be a consequence. It is as elementary as that. Especially when given a second chance and in life sometimes you aren't given that.

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:
The fact that athletics is a priviledge and not a right.

No such evidence is or has been shown to support this claim as fact. It is pure opinion and usually espoused by those wishing to be the grantors of the privilege and recipients of the assigned rights.

Another interesting discussion would be how there are so many things that can get athletes in trouble these days. My best friend was "coded" in high school for a picture with a beer on the table next to him on his my space account. There were a couple incidents in college with a player's facebook accounts. There are numerous websites that encourage opinionated criticism like, thedirty.com.

My point being, that an athlete has to be very careful these days in what he/she does. Even if you arent doing something, it is very easy for people to make it seem like you are.

quote:

It is pure opinion and usually espoused by those wishing to be the grantors of the privilege and recipients of the assigned rights.

Not sure how that opinion became fact when the athletes in question are no longer able to participate because they fail to understand that they represent more than just themselves.

As Lou Holtz once said, "I didn't make the rules, I just enforce them".

The facts of this case are not what you wish to assume. My son got into a car to go to a Bulls game. The driver of the vehicle had alcohol. When my son found out he called us to pick him up. Four hours later, after my son was home and in bed, the driver was stopped for a DUI. The driver told the police that he had been with my son at the Bulls game several hours earlier. The police told the school. The school conducted an "investigation". My son admitted to being in the presence of alcohol and received the suspension. My son is paying a hefty price and learning a tough lesson. Our goal is to learn and move on. He is 17 years old.

I am locking this thread now.

The facts of the individual case are now known and I fear that leaving this thread open would serve no further useful purpose.

If you wish to weigh in on the issue of COC's (Code of Conducts), there is a thread entitled

High School and College Code of Conduct

Where your comments and opinions are more than welcome and encouraged.

CPLZ
IL Forum Moderator