Joe Morgan says....

Most of the time most people are muscularly out of balance-(prepare for soapbox)-which a lot of times is caused from athletic "coaches" coaching athletes when they themselves are not athletes.

Big quads=no hamstrings
Ripped stomach=no low back strength
Big biceps=not triceps
Big chest=no back or rear shoulders

I use the term "big" loosely.

With regards to the overtraining and not enough rest-don't buy into that either. I don't know of a lot of people that truly push themselves this hard.

FWIW Michael Phelps trained EVERY day for 5 years in a row without a rest day. Not Christmas, Thanksgiving, his birthday, etc-EVERY day. Didn't seem to bother him.

Lance Armstrong is another who trained and trained. I guess there will always be exceptions. Probably the injuries are due to a combination of several things.

Lance and Mike Phelps had total control over their workout schedules. A team sport is different with all the travel and you'll sacrifice your body for the team; go out there and do the best you can and give what you have.

The Olympians are individuals...

i do think there is a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Lance and Mike Phelps had total control over their workout schedules. A team sport is different with all the travel and you'll sacrifice your body for the team; go out there and do the best you can and give what you have.

The Olympians are individuals...

i do think there is a difference.

You're right because Lance and Mike didn't and don't travel at all. Give me a break.

There is no difference.

And then we have the cancer situation with Lance.

That ability to work out so often without breaking down is what makes those two so unique. If you take MLB there are a few players out there who could work out that hard that often without breaking down and lots more who can't. There were also a few who used PEDs to allow them to work out that hard.

Zack's dad: my point is the individual (and their staff) align their workouts and their travel and competitions in a way that is much different than MLB, NBA or NHL guys who face crazy travel schedules.

of course they travel; but only on their terms, when it benefits them... if they have an injury or a time crunch they can easily cancel whatever they need to and re-align their training regimes.

Muscle imbalances are the chief cuplrit, IMO, and over conditioning certain muscle groups (and not others) can exacerbate a condition. That said, I don't know that any one workout will do anything negative. It is the accumulation of multiple workouts that can change the balance between training and recovery.

Athletes don't get stronger when they train, the get stronger when they recover (when the body "overcompensates"). I think that we sometimes forget that when we are playing a baseball game and performing baseball-related movements that we are doing one big plyometric exercise (after another. and another). Additional training, up to a point, can be helpful to performance, but only up to and until it interferes with recovery.

quote:

of course they travel; but only on their terms, when it benefits them... if they have an injury or a time crunch they can easily cancel whatever they need to and re-align their training regimes.

I wouldn't say they only travel on "their" terms. The Tour won't be rescheduled, the Olympics won't be rescheduled.

Then there are talk shows, public appearances, commercial shoots, etc.

This was my point. In many ways their travel schedules are worse than MLB players-not as long-but physically worse.

most everything you read touts the benefits of rest.

The problem is that with all the demanding schedules it is hard to get much rest.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
most everything you read touts the benefits of rest.

The problem is that with all the demanding schedules it is hard to get much rest.

What type of rest are we talking about here?

The op's original text implies training 4 years for the olympics, peaking in 2 weeks, then taking a rest which is the type of rest I was referring to in my first post. I think you are talking about "daily" rest.

If an athlete takes in the proper nutrition and gets enough daily rest, there really isn't a reason to take a "break" (an extended period of time when an athlete does nothing).

well ... the Olympics occur every four years, I don't think that most athletes train without rest for four years for that one event. It's a buildup - with meets and events in between. So they might train intensively for 6 months before, compete, then rest. MLB trains intensively in the Spring (if not before) then competes in April, May, June, July, August, September, and hopefully October. They are expected to be at their peak for each game. Obviously MP and LA are exceptions as is Cal Ripken.


I wonder if we will see begin to see a change back to the slimmer player in the MLB? One who is in good shape - more for endurance rather than max power?

quote:

I wonder if we will see begin to see a change back to the slimmer player in the MLB? One who is in good shape - more for endurance rather than max power?

I wouldn't think so because with the exception of the pitcher and catcher baseball is not an endurance type sport it doesn't matter how long the season is.

My thoughts on injuries in bb is that players do not play as "hard" as what they use to (this combined with the muscular imbalances). Example is Johnny hits routine ground balls and fly balls and trots to first. Then Johnny hits a slow roller to 3rd and he actually sprints all out to first and pulls up with a lame hamstring. And you can train hard and often but game time is a different scenario.

Endurance probably isn't the best choice to describe baseball but I can see why people use it. In it's own way it is an endurance sport even if it's not the typical aerobic exercise that goes along with endurance.

As for this statement....

quote:

My thoughts on injuries in bb is that players do not play as "hard" as what they use to (this combined with the muscular imbalances).

I can see this at the lower levels but good DI schools and professionals I doubt that the muscle imbalance happens much. No way the schools and pro teams are going to sink that much money into players (education) and just let it happen to chance. They go after good strenght and conditioning personnel.

I think the proper term is "anaerobic endurance."

As for players not playing as hard, I think that they have always paced themselves a bit (162 game season wears on everyone). Now, I know that I am dating myself a bit (60's and 70's), but I distinctly remember my old man complaining that his "fightin' Phils" only "turned it on" during specific parts of the game.

quote:

quote:

My thoughts on injuries in bb is that players do not play as "hard" as what they use to (this combined with the muscular imbalances).

I can see this at the lower levels but good DI schools and professionals I doubt that the muscle imbalance happens much. No way the schools and pro teams are going to sink that much money into players (education) and just let it happen to chance. They go after good strenght and conditioning personnel.

Point is, is that when there is a muscular imbalance in place, it takes YEARS to correct and some will never get corrected.

What makes a good strength and conditioning coach? This is my question and it is a lot of what is wrong with youth sports today.

Is it someone who is fast, strong, well conditioned, and know what it takes to achieve this. Or is it someone that goes to school for years, has a piece of paper on the wall, and whose idea of a run is something on his wife's pantyhose.

I train at a small private gym that caters to college/semi pro athletes, powerlifters, and kettlebell lifters. The owner/trainer is a friend of mine and we have been training for about 6 years (we started in his basement LOL). Anyway, he is fairly strong, pretty quick, a ranked kettlebell lifter, and an accomplished martial arts fighter. Guess what, he doesn't have the "degree" to go along with it.

He applied about 2 years ago to be the s&c coach at the high school my son now goes to (a big high school with a good amount of money)-and was quickly told no because of the "no degree".

I could go on about what the idiot they hired has my son do-but I won't. A lot of what they say has the potential for serious injury and does nothing to make him a better athlete-so I just tell him to use a very light weight and do it like he says when he is looking.

quote:

Is it someone who is fast, strong, well conditioned, and know what it takes to achieve this. Or is it someone that goes to school for years, has a piece of paper on the wall, and whose idea of a run is something on his wife's pantyhose.

Ideally someone with both clinical experience in the weight room and one who has the academic experience and a degree along with certification.

quote:

I train at a small private gym that caters to college/semi pro athletes, powerlifters, and kettlebell lifters.

And if the owner tries coaching/instructing all of them the same way then that would be part of why he couldn't get hired..

quote:

He applied about 2 years ago to be the s&c coach at the high school my son now goes to (a big high school with a good amount of money)-and was quickly told no because of the "no degree".

Ever heard of "liability?"

The Armstrong example is not a good one. I used to race road bikes and have followed pro racing as a fan for more than 30 years. Prior to the 1990's riders had much more demanding schedules. Why? Their income was based on winnings, and to win purses you had to race a lot. Racing was only a small step up (financially) from a blue collar job, and a hand-to-mouth existence for many. Laurent Fignon was called "The Professor" because he had a college degree, a rarity in the peleton.

That changed when Greg Lemond signed his first pro contract in the early 80's. Contract money for top riders increased four-fold almost overnight. Sponsors began focusing on the major tours, and riders used minor races as training/preparation for the big ones.

Lance (and other top names) are products and beneficiaries of that shift. They now tailor their preparation to the races they want most to win, rather than racing the entire season plus indoor racing in the winter. (IIRC, this will be the first time Lance has ever ridden two grand tours in the same season, at least with the intention of finishing.) As hard as Lance and others train, they still ride less than the racers of 30 years ago.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Is it someone who is fast, strong, well conditioned, and know what it takes to achieve this. Or is it someone that goes to school for years, has a piece of paper on the wall, and whose idea of a run is something on his wife's pantyhose.

Ideally someone with both clinical experience in the weight room and one who has the academic experience and a degree along with certification.

quote:

I train at a small private gym that caters to college/semi pro athletes, powerlifters, and kettlebell lifters.

And if the owner tries coaching/instructing all of them the same way then that would be part of why he couldn't get hired..

quote:

He applied about 2 years ago to be the s&c coach at the high school my son now goes to (a big high school with a good amount of money)-and was quickly told no because of the "no degree".

Ever heard of "liability?"

Wondered how long it would take you to get in here.

For once we somewhat agree on something-yeah the best coach would be someone that truly is an athlete and has a degree to appease the people that think you need one to be a "trainer".

He doesn't instruct them all the same-I thought you would know this since you are a "trainer".

What does liability have to do with being hired as a s&c coach for a high school? He has a personal $5 million dollar policy.

Zack squats 205lbs. Know what the current strength coach has him do for a warm up? Better yet why don't you tell me what you would have him do for a warm up?

quote:

For once we somewhat agree on something-yeah the best coach would be someone that truly is an athlete and has a degree to appease the people that think you need one to be a "trainer".

To hold a sports certification, you have to have a degree. Those who make those decisions feel having a degree is important to have the academic background in order to be an effective strength and conditioning coach. Many personal training certifications and many gyms are now requiring a degree as well. Would you want a doctor or a nurse to practice without a degree or a license? I'm sure there are plenty who would be good at it even without obtaining a degree or a license. It'd still be illegal.

quote:

He doesn't instruct them all the same-I thought you would know this since you are a "trainer".

To start, I've read some of what you've posted before that you claim to have learned from this guy and it was body-building stuff for athletes. Completely different goals, completely different mindsets.

As for the "trainer" part, I am not a "trainer." I am an athletic training student. Athletic Trainers are healthcare providers who deal with the prevention of injury, the acute assessment and on-the-field evaluation, emergency response to injury, and rehabilitation of injury.

quote:

What does liability have to do with being hired as a s&c coach for a high school? He has a personal $5 million dollar policy.

Hmm.. if he feels he needs to carry that personal policy, he must understand the risks of instructing strength and conditioning. He may have his butt covered by the insurance, but the school wouldn't be too happy if they got sued. One of the first things the plaintiff's lawyers would pull out is the lack of certification and/or degree.

quote:

Zack squats 205lbs. Know what the current strength coach has him do for a warm up? Better yet why don't you tell me what you would have him do for a warm up?

Oh I can't wait to hear this one... As for me personally, I don't do a "warm up" set before I start lifting. But we instruct our kids to do a set of 5 with about 135 pounds on the bar (unless they are just beginning). Once he can squat 250 or better, I'd say 185 may be a better warm up weight.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

To start, I've read some of what you've posted before that you claim to have learned from this guy and it was body-building stuff for athletes. Completely different goals, completely different mindsets.

As for the "trainer" part, I am not a "trainer." I am an athletic training student. Athletic Trainers are healthcare providers who deal with the prevention of injury, the acute assessment and on-the-field evaluation, emergency response to injury, and rehabilitation of injury.

[QUOTE]What does liability have to do with being hired as a s&c coach for a high school? He has a personal $5 million dollar policy.

Hmm.. if he feels he needs to carry that personal policy, he must understand the risks of instructing strength and conditioning. He may have his butt covered by the insurance, but the school wouldn't be too happy if they got sued. One of the first things the plaintiff's lawyers would pull out is the lack of certification and/or degree.

quote:

Zack squats 205lbs. Know what the current strength coach has him do for a warm up? Better yet why don't you tell me what you would have him do for a warm up?

Oh I can't wait to hear this one... As for me personally, I don't do a "warm up" set before I start lifting. But we instruct our kids to do a set of 5 with about 135 pounds on the bar (unless they are just beginning). Once he can squat 250 or better, I'd say 185 may be a better warm up weight.

First I have NEVER said I learned anything from him. He, though, has learned some things from me. Bodybuilding stuff-never-ever-and definitely not at his gym. Bodybuilders are not athletes.

I use the term "trainer" loosely which is why I put it in quotation marks. I do seem to recall in a post that you worked at a gym.

I totally agree and understand what you are saying about the school getting sued.

I will ask again, if you had Zack in front of you, knowing his max squat was 205lbs what would you have him do for a warmup.

If you personally don't do a warm up set before you actually lift, then either

1. You don't lift much weight
2. You truly don't know what you are doing
3. A combination of the both

quote:

If you personally don't do a warm up set before you actually lift, then either

1. You don't lift much weight
2. You truly don't know what you are doing
3. A combination of the both

I'm only gonna hit on this point for now as I'm on my way out the door to go work out in fact. I never was super-strong (max bench 190, max squat 315, max clean 215). I've taken a 2-year hiatus from lifting consistently unforunately due to being lazy and not motivated to work out.

I'm in my 7th week of my new workout plan which I've spent the first 6 weeks focused on mastering form and getting my body used to lifting again. The most weight I will do this afternoon is about 150 pounds for a set of 5.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

If you personally don't do a warm up set before you actually lift, then either

1. You don't lift much weight
2. You truly don't know what you are doing
3. A combination of the both

I'm only gonna hit on this point for now as I'm on my way out the door to go work out in fact. I never was super-strong (max bench 190, max squat 315, max clean 215). I've taken a 2-year hiatus from lifting consistently unforunately due to being lazy and not motivated to work out.

I'm in my 7th week of my new workout plan which I've spent the first 6 weeks focused on mastering form and getting my body used to lifting again. The most weight I will do this afternoon is about 150 pounds for a set of 5.

I will ask again, if you had Zack in front of you, knowing his max squat was 205lbs what would you have him do for a warmup.

At least you are honest and accountable about being lazy and not being motivated. That is really the first step to changing. But I thought you worked in a gym?

And let me get this straight, let's say I squat 250lbs-you are telling me I should just walk in the gym and put 185lbs on the bar and start working out? Wow, guess I am doing it all wrong.

Zack's s&c coach at the high school says he should put 135lbs on the bar and do 3 sets of 10 keeping a close stance. He routinely tells the kids "great job" even though they are on the balls of their feet with their knees shooting forward 8-10 inches.

quote:

I will ask again, if you had Zack in front of you, knowing his max squat was 205lbs what would you have him do for a warmup.

If you are going to ask a question, it's always good to read the answer that I already provided.

quote:

At least you are honest and accountable about being lazy and not being motivated. That is really the first step to changing. But I thought you worked in a gym?

Yep, I sure do. And I've worked for two separate organizations in the last 3 years in fitness centers. One job I sat at the front desk scanning IDs. The other job I was responsible for keeping the place clean basically and supervising. Neither place was I in a position to do any kind of personal training.

quote:

And let me get this straight, let's say I squat 250lbs-you are telling me I should just walk in the gym and put 185lbs on the bar and start working out? Wow, guess I am doing it all wrong.

Well, after you've done your Dot Drill and a little dynamic warm up, what else you gonna do?

quote:

Zack's s&c coach at the high school says he should put 135lbs on the bar and do 3 sets of 10 keeping a close stance. He routinely tells the kids "great job" even though they are on the balls of their feet with their knees shooting forward 8-10 inches.

There are good and there are bad in every profession. That is, if what your son says is true. We only have one side of the story so I take it with a grain of salt.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

I will ask again, if you had Zack in front of you, knowing his max squat was 205lbs what would you have him do for a warmup.

If you are going to ask a question, it's always good to read the answer that I already provided.

quote:

At least you are honest and accountable about being lazy and not being motivated. That is really the first step to changing. But I thought you worked in a gym?

Yep, I sure do. And I've worked for two separate organizations in the last 3 years in fitness centers. One job I sat at the front desk scanning IDs. The other job I was responsible for keeping the place clean basically and supervising. Neither place was I in a position to do any kind of personal training.

quote:

And let me get this straight, let's say I squat 250lbs-you are telling me I should just walk in the gym and put 185lbs on the bar and start working out? Wow, guess I am doing it all wrong.

Well, after you've done your Dot Drill and a little dynamic warm up, what else you gonna do?

quote:

Zack's s&c coach at the high school says he should put 135lbs on the bar and do 3 sets of 10 keeping a close stance. He routinely tells the kids "great job" even though they are on the balls of their feet with their knees shooting forward 8-10 inches.

There are good and there are bad in every profession. That is, if what your son says is true. We only have one side of the story so I take it with a grain of salt.

So I went back and reread-the only thing I really see is you say to do a set of 5 with 135lbs? What about joint mobility focusing on back, hip and leg muscles. I.e. - bw squats, jumping jacks, seal jumps, flings, gate swings, pogo jumps, scissor jumps, squat jumps, leg swings front,back, side, lunges front back side, cat/camel spine mobility, bent knee twists, outer hip and hip flexor stretching. Doesn't this sound like a little better warm up than just going in and a 205lb squatter putting 135lbs on the bar.

I guess I was confused about what you did at the gym because of the "advice" you give and the statements like "we have our kids do......".

What else am I going to do for a warm up? See above-I squat a little over 3x my bodyweight so after my dynamic warmup I should just jump to 65% of my max? Wow.

One thing I don't have to worry about is Zack telling the truth-so yeah what Zack says is true.

Maybe you and I should just start our own thread and discuss back and forth.

well, I'd like to initially address the rest topic. rest is relative, that's crucial. Lance Armstrong did not ride the same distance of a tour everyday he trained. on my "rest" days I do a stretching and running regimen - but I still consider this an off day. Perhaps the term "recovery" would be preferable to "rest" or and "off-days."

As for the warm up - you will find a million different warm up routines, each with their pro's and con's. I tend to do a fairly extensive dynamic warm-up and do my core and pre-hab work before I get into my "real" workout. This generally has me prepared to the point that I need very few "warm-up" sets. If I was to squat 205 after that routine, I would probably just throw some 45's on each side for 5 reps or so and then hop into my real workout.

quote:

I tend to do a fairly extensive dynamic warm-up and do my core and pre-hab work before I get into my "real" workout. This generally has me prepared to the point that I need very few "warm-up" sets. If I was to squat 205 after that routine, I would probably just throw some 45's on each side for 5 reps or so and then hop into my real workout.

Right and I agree. But Bulldogs initial response is:

"But we instruct our kids to do a set of 5 with about 135 pounds on the bar (unless they are just beginning)."

This is stupid and is exactly what his current s&c coach tells them to do in high school.

Funny most people that don't squat any weight to speak of don't do a lot of "warm up sets" which also translates to not a lot of volume.

I start with the bar.

Hey guys,

Man I love argum-, conversations like these! Lots to talk about ! OK, my two cents. I agree with HB162; "rest" is relative. I have observed over the years, however, that the younger athletes don't always have true "recovery" days and that their "off" workouts are too hard by half. I would always counsel them to take true off days (if anyone actually asked me anymore ).

Re: trainer qualifications, ZD, I have to disagree with you on this one. "Trainers" or gym employees, or whatever we call them now, need to have gym experience, but they also need to have degrees and proper certifications. Yes, I have known a number of trainers who have built a body of work and have loads of experience in the gym (and have not pursued any academic training) and I mean them no disrespect.

However, there is no reason for anyone to not pursue both tracks (practical and academic) if they fashion themselves as someone who will be training athletes. The pool is too deep and the profession has become too big for us not to insist on higher standards. Period.

What I have run into over time is gym "trainers" that are quite accomplished at the strength sports (in my day, it was "vitamin-enhanced" power or olympic lifting) and are considered "experts" because of their expertise in those areas. ZD, you and I have discussed some of these folks in PMs; no disrespect to their skill (and lifting like that is a skill and a talent) and their work (and it takes incredible amounts of work), but I look at them as strength athletes to be admired before I look to them for training advice. It is important to keep the athletes' goals in mind here; we are building ballplayers.

Thanks for letting me ramble,

OBC.

quote:

Originally posted by Ole Ball Coach:
Re: trainer qualifications, ZD, I have to disagree with you on this one. "Trainers" or gym employees, or whatever we call them now, need to have gym experience, but they also need to have degrees and proper certifications. Yes, I have known a number of trainers who have built a body of work and have loads of experience in the gym (and have not pursued any academic training) and I mean them no disrespect.

However, there is no reason for anyone to not pursue both tracks (practical and academic) if they fashion themselves as someone who will be training athletes. The pool is too deep and the profession has become too big for us not to insist on higher standards. Period.

What I have run into over time is gym "trainers" that are quite accomplished at the strength sports (in my day, it was "vitamin-enhanced" power or olympic lifting) and are considered "experts" because of their expertise in those areas. ZD, you and I have discussed some of these folks in PMs; no disrespect to their skill (and lifting like that is a skill and a talent) and their work (and it takes incredible amounts of work), but I look at them as strength athletes to be admired before I look to them for training advice. It is important to keep the athletes' goals in mind here; we are building ballplayers.

Thanks for letting me ramble,

OBC.

OBC-you are correct-there is no reason for someone not to pursue both avenues. But it seems like most of them pursue one and not the other. This is along the same lines as the thread TRHIT just started in the general items forum-talking about a certain sports coach, coaching a sport that he has never played. It wouldn't be smart to take pitching lessons from someone who has never pitched, it wouldn't be smart to have a punter coach you on how to be a better quarterback, and it sure doesn't make any sense to enlist the services of an athletic coach (personal trainer whatever you want to call them) to coach you on how to be a better athlete if they have never been one.

Now OBC surely you are not saying explosive strength training doesn't have it's place in BB. I think that you know just because someone is an accomplished strength athlete, whether it be olympic, strongman, or powerlifting that is not all they are capable of. A lot of accomplished strength athletes started out as track and field people or ballplayers of some sort.

Let's talk about Tiger for a minute. I would think there are just as many "other" golfers that have put in just as much time, if not more, than what he has. I am sure there are "other" golfers that have just as good, if not better, coordination than he does. So what is it that makes him so dominant? I personally believe it is the serious weight training he incorporates, which in turn has made him a superior athlete when compared to other golfers.

Agree to a certain extent EXCEPT (and this, in my opinion, is not a small distinction), strength and other physical training is valuable because it helps the athlete be better conditioned to perform at his or her sport. The other coaches are helping them play the sport better. One trainer is building a better engine for the car, the other is teaching you to drive it better.

I absolutely agree with you that explosive strength is vital to baseball success; I wonder (worry) about the applicability of certain training schemes to allow that to happen and to keep athletes from getting hurt when they do. I have always been of the belief that the most important rule is "first, do no harm." Thank you Hippocrates .