JuCOs and Baseball Development

All programs are not created equal, but the level of baseball and coaching can be very high with the right program. At our son's program there is quite a bit of pro scout coverage, and a terrific coaching staff to run a very competitive program. I am sure it comes as no surprise that the kids are there to play baseball, and there is not a lot of academic rigor.

Ole Ball Coach


I truly get upset when a parent uses the term spurned with regard to a college

Things that can happen on their end:

Possibly the school did not need a player at his position
Possibly the player did not have the talent they seek
Possibly the grades were not adequate

Before you throw out the word spurned and degrade a school think about it

Also realize that a school is a sons # 1 choice does not guarantee a spot---you can want all you want but the school has to want and need you---that is just the way it is

I agree with TRHit. Spurned is pretty harsh word to describe the was a college "treats" players they didn't sign. Websters says --- Spurned: (to reject with disdain or contempt). The vast majority of the time a player isn't signed there is no "blame" to be placed on anyone but simply a coach selecting a player that his team needs and/or a player selecting a team that needs him --- business as usual. Some do get their feelings hurt in the process but we have to understand this is a business decision and not view it as an emotional event.

A JUCO can be very good for a student athlete whether of not they go on to play baseball for a 4 year college or not. Some JUCO have long standing relationship with 4 year colleges and become trusted feeder programs for these colleges. If a player projects to fits the needs of that particular 4 year college in the near future, then attending that JUCO could be a great path to the 4 year program. I think the JUCO and the wanna be D-1 player can find themselves in the unique position of helping each other. As far as a JUCO developing players? Granted a player will develop faster if he's on the JUCO field than he would on a D-1 bench but that can be attributed more to a player finding the right "fit" that heaping praise on JUCO programs in general.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Ole Ball Coach


I truly get upset when a parent uses the term spurned with regard to a college...

Uh, yeah.

You guys are thinking a whole lot more about the choice of a word than was intended. We know well the business end of it. Certainly we don't think any of it is personal. If I intended to "degrade" the school, I might have mentioned its name, huh? Jeez.

ANYWAY, the purpose of the post was to solicit comment about the JuCOs and their role in getting kids for college baseball...

ole ball coach and others

If you guys and gals want to post thoughts then post what you intend it to mean--don't post and than come back and explain what you meant after you are called out on it


Jeez Ole Ball Coach---cant you do that--GEEZ!!!!

quote:

ANYWAY, the purpose of the post was to solicit comment about the JuCOs and their role in getting kids for college baseball...

OBC, JuCo is college baseball. Tough crowd here on a Monday.

Yours is a very broad question, much like asking what JuCo/D1/DII/DIII/NAIA best prepares a player for a professional career.

First a parent/player needs to find out as much as possible about where players from a given JuCo go after their AA degree. Or, conversely, should the 4 year be of more importance, find out what JuCos have fed players to that program.

Some JuCo conferences, particularly in FL, TX & CA are known for the high quality of their programs. Players looking to improve their draft position choose these conferences specifically for that purpose as they will then be draft-eligible every year.

I will leave academics aside, other than to say that the smaller classes and more limited distractions at JuCos can be of benefit to certain types of students. Further, the lower relative cost of JuCos (and the availability of scholarship money) can be of benefit to the family finances.

Quality coaching is not the sole provence of the 4 year schools; good and bad exist at all levels. However, I think we would all agree that playing time also makes for better players. JuCos not only offer increased playing time for freshman/sophomore players over many 4 years (no juniors or seniors to compete with), but many have a Fall schedule in addition to Spring.

Thank you, Orlando, for getting us back on track. One thing I was surprised to learn more recently is that some JuCOs will play the equivilent of a D1's "JV" team in their schedules(thank you, BBFan5).

Interesting

PM's with terms such as "demonizing" in them--thank goodness I have holy water in the house

It used to be fun debating things here and now we are into terms like this !!!! And they do it in PM"s perhaps not brave enuff to say it in the open

Things said in PM's are meant to stay in PM's. Bringing them public without the authors permission is the equivilant of shouting something out in room full of people, that was just whispered to you in private. It's a violation of personal trust. The trust you expect from people as a common courtesy.

CPLZ


Please get off the rostrum--

I named no names --I have a major problem with terms like demoninizing===perhaps you don't but I do--- and then whe I respond I get AS YOU WISH as a response


Whispered!!!===LOL

I hope the ice breaks soon CP because you need to tie into a lunker---I am serious

quote:

some JuCOs will play the equivilent of a D1's "JV" team in their schedules

I wasn't aware of this. How common is this? I know my son's D-1 didn't have an "equivalent to a JV team" and they only played other D-1s.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:

quote:

some JuCOs will play the equivilent of a D1's "JV" team in their schedules

I wasn't aware of this. How common is this? I know my son's D-1 didn't have an "equivalent to a JV team" and they only played other D-1s.

Honestly don't know. Will ask my "source" when I talk to him tomorrow...

quote:

Originally posted by Ole Ball Coach:

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:

quote:

some JuCOs will play the equivilent of a D1's "JV" team in their schedules

I wasn't aware of this. How common is this? I know my son's D-1 didn't have an "equivalent to a JV team" and they only played other D-1s.

Honestly don't know. Will ask my "source" when I talk to him tomorrow...

Fungo,
Still don't know how common the practice is, but a quick look at some of the box scores for some of the mid-Atlantic JuCOs I am familiar with suggests that it is part of their schedule. For example, Frederick Community College appears to have played a number of D1's and D2 JV teams recently...

Well, D2s and 3s as near as I can tell.

OBC

D1 schools cannot have JV teams...D2 can

quote:

Originally posted by rbinaz:
D1 schools cannot have JV teams...D2 can

There you go, RBI. See, our thread figured something out this weekend, no =)?

Just wanted to share something on this thread (mostly because I have known the young man since he was about seven). There is a young man pitching at Frederick Community College (a lefty with nasty stuff; his intials are KS, check the website, you can figure it out) that played all of ONE inning on his high school team (mostly, IMO, because the pitching coach and the boy's father, both career baseball guys, never got along). Fast forward two years...

He stuck with it in spite of everything and is an ace on a team that will almost certainly go to the junior college world series. One of his old travel league coaches told me that he has had inquiries from a D1 in Florida, a D1 from Georgia (very close to hotlanta) and may just get an offer from a (3rd) prominent GA baseball factory.

The lesson I get from it is this; all of you HS players who have been told that you can't get it done or that you are to slow/weak/don't have "pop"/have poor hands or whatever, if this is your dream, work your rears off to get better. Don't stop until you do. Compete. Be smart and make yourself the "go-to" guy. There will be a time when you can't play anymore (happens to everyone). Until that time, decide that you will go all out and do everything you can to realize your dream...

My son is a HS senior this year and has signed a lOI to Yavapai College in AZ. We had hopes of going D-1 but for whatever reason the interest was there, but no offers. Bottom line, I believe, is he was just not ready. Pretty much everyone I talk to that knows him and the JUCO circuit says it is a GREAT opportunity for him. If he develops , puts on weight and strength (a MIF 6'0" 160lb)as the coaches predict he should be able to write his ticket anywhere. They have a great reputation for moving kids on and two of his top D-1 choices have past Yavapai players on the rosters today.
I see it as a win win situation. Another year or two to put away a few more bucks and 200 + live at bats a year swinging the old woody against quality pitching. He will either develop into a legit college ballplayer or may decide he is done and wants to pursue a real job, which means he can enroll in ASU with his buddies..

diamond dog,

not a bad plan at all. My son was heading for the same thing, he didnt want to play at some of the 4 years that did recruit him for various reasons. He was headed to a JC also. In the last month he had a D1 school see him and like him and he is going to comitt there and will be posting later.Its close to home, good academic fit and just worked out.
But if the options dont come i think the JC route is great for all the reasons you said, and like you said if in two years its not what he is hoping for then he can just enjoy his last two years of college and move on.But tell him to work hard and keep going at it and he might be surprised.

Thanks for the advice fan, he is having a Great senior year, hitting around .600 and still hopefull his favorite D1 will come through after the draft like they mentioned they might. Either way we feel blessed to be in the situation were in. Hard work has never been a problem for him (on the field anyway) so whatever happens will be good for us.

quote:

Originally posted by Ole Ball Coach:

quote:

Originally posted by rbinaz:
D1 schools cannot have JV teams...D2 can

There you go, RBI. See, our thread figured something out this weekend, no =)?

Just wanted to share something on this thread (mostly because I have known the young man since he was about seven). There is a young man pitching at Frederick Community College (a lefty with nasty stuff; his intials are KS, check the website, you can figure it out) that played all of ONE inning on his high school team (mostly, IMO, because the pitching coach and the boy's father, both career baseball guys, never got along). Fast forward two years...

He stuck with it in spite of everything and is an ace on a team that will almost certainly go to the junior college world series. One of his old travel league coaches told me that he has had inquiries from a D1 in Florida, a D1 from Georgia (very close to hotlanta) and may just get an offer from a (3rd) prominent GA baseball factory.

The lesson I get from it is this; all of you HS players who have been told that you can't get it done or that you are to slow/weak/don't have "pop"/have poor hands or whatever, if this is your dream, work your rears off to get better. Don't stop until you do. Compete. Be smart and make yourself the "go-to" guy. There will be a time when you can't play anymore (happens to everyone). Until that time, decide that you will go all out and do everything you can to realize your dream...

It should be noted that this lefty at Frederick Community College you refer to also has credit for a No-Hitter this year. He continues to put up great numbers and is really establishing himself as the go to guy.

The high school credited for overlooking this diamond in the rough has a player there right now. A senior and an outstanding catcher who signed to join the ranks of Frederick's baseball team. This kid has a strong arm, quick release and outstanding defensive skills behind the plate so they have him playiing shortstop....go figure. He is also leading the team in hitting with an average at or better than .430 with multiple extra base hits and at least one homerun. For all of this production he received a chewing out by one of his coaches. The team's ERA is over 11 and the coach goes after his most productive hitter. What's going on over there?

Here is another question - say you do go to a JC for 2 years - how much help do you get in getting to the next level, for those of you whose sons have gone on, what has been your experience?
I know it depends on performance (got to earn it on the field) and grades (to transfer in). And I know that there are as many answers for this as there are JC coaches!
But in general, if you had to do it again, whether you went on or not, would you? And what would you do differently?
Thanks!

quote:

... What's going on over there?

Fan 5,
I heard that too and I heard that three players (I think that they were all seniors), have left the team. OleBallCoach, what has been happening with the Herndon Hornets since we moved????

Mikamom, excellent question. I hope that we can get some folks whose kids are on the other side of the JuCO equation to weigh in. I imagine you are right; you get what you put into it.

BBF5 and TD, re: the Herndon Hornets, two and not three seniors left the team. The environment is very negative, half the team walks around in a funk worried about making a mistake. When the coaches do communicate, it is generally not positive. Compounding everythng, of course, is that the team, particularly the pitching, has struggled. So when the losses mount up, the blame game is on.

I was told once that the test of good coaching is maintaining team cohesion and resolve in the face of adversity. This coaching staff just hasn't risen to the challenge. In my opinion, there needs to be some changes in the coaching regime or the coaches need to fundamentally change their approach (the latter is not likely, I suspect, as I have heard from some old-timers that this has been going on for years). I think folks need to remember that coaching athletes is a privilege, not a right.

A number of the underclassmen parents are, apparently, going to contact the AD after the season is over; I can see why, why would someone subject their child to something like that?
Apparently it is not the first time, it will be interesting to see if the AD finally takes action.

mikamom, you're right --- there are as many answers as there are players and coaches.

Most JuCo's websites will have a page on alumni players and Where They Are Now. If your player has 4 year programs he's hoping to transfer to, check their rosters for JuCo transfers (if not, or in addition, check a sampling of your state's schools for the info). This will give you a good picture of which JuCo's most actively help and/or which JuCo's are regarded as fertile fields for recruitment.

My son's JuCo had a rep for placing every player who would be academically viable, and even had a Safety School for the guys who were borderline. As it happened, we didn't test the system because my son got an offer during the summer after his freshman year to transfer as a junior.

I would strongly recommend the JuCo route for any player who has something to work on --- maturation level (physically or mentally) and academic issues (not just borderline grades --- organization or motivation), for example.

PT is a concern at a 4 year. On one hand, if a player can start as a freshman, is this program strong enough for him? If the coaches haven't recruited and developed players better than a guy straight out of hs....how much will they be able to teach your son? On the other hand, every player who gets a college slot was a star in hs, and sitting will be frustrating...and you don't get better by not playing. JuCo solves a lot of the PT concern, while still providing base courses.

quote:

PT is a concern at a 4 year. On one hand, if a player can start as a freshman, is this program strong enough for him? If the coaches haven't recruited and developed players better than a guy straight out of hs....how much will they be able to teach your son? On the other hand, every player who gets a college slot was a star in hs, and sitting will be frustrating...and you don't get better by not playing. JuCo solves a lot of the PT concern, while still providing base courses.

Very true. Here is something else to think about ...

Some 4-year programs recruit almost exclusively from junior colleges. You can tell by looking at their rosters. If you want to play for that type of program, head to a JUCO first. On the other hand, there are some 4-year programs who recruit almost exclusively from high schools. They put a huge emphasis on developing their players from the get-go, and if you try to transfer in as a junior, you may be out of luck.

Well said. Looking at some the ACC school rosters, it becomes pretty apparent which are which...

quote:

Some 4-year programs recruit almost exclusively from junior colleges

Bullseye!

OBC,

Sorry to hear of the Herndon problems. Was one of the players who left the team the big lefty? While not always consistent, I saw him pitch some very competitive games over the years.

Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Superball:
OBC,

Sorry to hear of the Herndon problems. Was one of the players who left the team the big lefty? While not always consistent, I saw him pitch some very competitive games over the years.

Good luck

Thank you Supe, I hope you are well (I suspect we will be hanging out behind the backstop together very soon =)). Congrats on your team's continued success; Ch's has the tools to go very far.

If you will indulge me, I am very pleased to note that FCC is doing very well. My "future hall of famer" Kevin Starinieri continues to dominate the junior college ranks. He is just one of the pitchers, so who know how far that team can go (?); still, I am real excited about this program...

We are hoping for a good showing in districts and regionals this year. It's very wide open as there are 8-10 good teams that could all beat each other on a given night.

Herndon Robinson will be no gimme game for Robinson, nor for Oakton vs the winner in the semifinals. Keep playing well and knock someone out.

As for FCC and KS, they are doing well.

I suspect that you will make more than a little bit of noise =). Let's hope the rain lets up some time this year!

Supe- thanks for the good conversation this year. Herndon's season is over. The Robinson Rams beat us tonight 5-2. Unfortunately, we had a number of defensive lapses that did us in. Anyway, good luck to your boys the rest of the way.

My son played JUCO ball for 2 yrs-or rather was on the roster for 2 yrs-just because they recruit you and you work hard, deveolop into a strong player doesnt meen PT-as a bull-pen RHP he got about 10 outings his freshman year and 2 outings his sophmore yr. His coach did little to help him to the next level. He ended up emailing coaches himself and still is in a quandry of what to do next year. This is a top rated JUCO program who went to world series last year. But along with top programs come top Studs and sometimes very little coaching and fat rosters. You have to be carefull which JUCO you chose, make sure your son would be happy there if he were not playing ball, and make sure he can take all the courses he would want to take. Many smaller JUCOs are very limited in the classes they offer.

quote:

Originally posted by msdoc:
My son played JUCO ball for 2 yrs-or rather was on the roster for 2 yrs-just because they recruit you and you work hard, deveolop into a strong player doesnt meen PT-as a bull-pen RHP he got about 10 outings his freshman year and 2 outings his sophmore yr. His coach did little to help him to the next level. He ended up emailing coaches himself and still is in a quandry of what to do next year. This is a top rated JUCO program who went to world series last year. But along with top programs come top Studs and sometimes very little coaching and fat rosters. You have to be carefull which JUCO you chose, make sure your son would be happy there if he were not playing ball, and make sure he can take all the courses he would want to take. Many smaller JUCOs are very limited in the classes they offer.

MS - That is excellent advice. I often see people post things that make it appear that a JUCO is guaranteed playing time for a good player. IT IS NOT! JUCOs vary in many things just as any other level school. My son was recruited several years ago by quite a few JUCOs and ended up choosing badly in hindsight because we just weren't aware of what was truly important when considering this route.

Some JUCOs carry a roster bigger than your 4 year school. Some don't play freshmen, but put them on a JV or "develop" them for the soph year. Other JUCOs have special relationships with scouts or certain 4 year schools and will play those players over someone else that they may have seriously planned on playing until the scout's placement shows up in mid August. There are some variables when talking about JUCOs that require more "homework" than we often believe. Some JUCO coaches work hard at getting their kids placed, others don't. Some JUCO coaches encourage redshirting and being there for three years. They run the scope just as other coaches and programs.

I think you are all right! I think - no matter what level we are talking about, there are are as many styles of coaching, success and failure as there are people involved. We are all looking for that magic situation, and some find it, some don't.

My son will most likely go to a JC, and we have looked and looked, and compared and compared. Every one of them has told him he will have an opportunity to win his spot on the field - no one has guaranteed him anything. There are risks involved in all the options.

Just like with other big life decisions, I think you have to get as much research done as possible - roll over every stone, ask every question, and get to know the PEOPLE involved. Then, with a clear head, make your decision, buy it, and go to work to make your goals and dreams happen within the program you have chosen. DON'T LOOK BACK! Make the best decision you can with the information you have. Take the risk that is worth taking, so you will never wake up one morning when you're old (like me) and say - gosh I wish I would have.....!

Although it is easier said than done, this is how we handled our daughter's decision to go half way across the country to the finest school for her major. She is very happy there, but took a big yet educated risk.

Finally, remember that in this life championships, records, and awards are forgotten. PEOPLE, CHARACTER and DEEDS are remembered.

So now I'll go back to my hand wringing while I wait for my son to decide....

quote:

So now I'll go back to my hand wringing while I wait for my son to decide....

Mom, It is a very stressful process - I agree. We were just so ignorant of everything on our end that we made a lot of mistakes. I have a HS senior (daughter) right now who's not playing sports in college and that's tough enough making decisions. When you through their passion and what might be paying for school into the mix - it's tough!

.
I'll likley take flack for this....got one in DI, one in JC...this I now know...

You research and you run down every source of information...and then you lie awake at night til late hours wondering if you really have done all you can...

...and you take them to school...and try to set it all up...and the transition is very tough on you (tougher likley than on them)...and you cry a little bit thinking about how you might just have completely ruined the rest of their lives...

...and they start...and they struggle some and you kick yourself for not doing more and not seeing things that "bite" them...and you do your best to solve them from far away...and you realize that the placement isn't what you though it was and it is hopeless for YOU to solve it...and that they are going to have to cowboy up, and grow...and fight and struggle for themselves...or move on...

And you are exactly, and finally right...for most us/them...it will be an entirely different experience than you/they expect...Nothing is set in stone at most schools...the kids who arrive in the fall are no always the kids you expected...sometimes they are at your your position...competition comes and goes...Some players are MUCH better than you thought...others never find themselves...coaches make good decisions and bad ones...players rise and fall...some players really "cowboy up"...others lose their passion...players click with some coaches dispise others...players get hurt...coaches move players into new positions...and sometimes back...and demote those that had waited for spots...Coaches come and go....The social/academic/atheletic trifecta is harder than you can imagine...academics really "Bite" some players...the social world will steal some...the only certainty is that the experience will be unlike anything you could have psyched out...

For in the end you have to trust your son, for in the end it is about a player and his own character...regardless of the coach, the situation...We have seen both and I can assure you that I have seen many more college kids give up and resign themsleves when faced with difficulty than are screwed by situations, or bad choices or bad luck...We have seen more kids simply do not take personal responsibility for fitness, for grades, for credits, for health, than are messed up by chooosing the wrong school...yet many timee the parents blame the school, and the coaches...

In the end ...character DOES matter...passion DOES matter...work ethic DOES matter...I can't tell you how many times spots open up due to injury, or poor performance and some kid steps in who simply would not go away...saw two players start this year who were told by coaches at the end of last year to go away...

and what you will also find in the end is that playing time or not, program development or not, real players find a way to better themselves...and in that process they become "lifetime winners" regardless of PT, AB's, struggle.....it just depends upon what he has in his heart. The winners learn by the experience, they learn about themselves and about their world, and they adapt, work harder or change situations and they are better for it...those who are not willing or able or prepared to pay a large price and see other greener pastures will find their glory in other venues...and that is fine...

Trust your sons. If you have instilled them with character and heart and passion....not just statistics (and I am sure you have) they will be fine....regardless.

44
.

how in the world could anyone EVER want to give you flack for what you just shared???

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
how in the world could anyone EVER want to give you flack for what you just shared???

I think he's been reading too many of the other, ummmm "controversial" threads!?!?!

Those are wise thoughts O44!

quote:

Originally posted by lafmom:

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
how in the world could anyone EVER want to give you flack for what you just shared???

I think he's been reading too many of the other, ummmm "controversial" threads!?!?!

Those are wise thoughts O44!

They are. Well said!