Key to Velocity

In the good old days, a guy who threw 90+ was overpowering. Today the standard is 5-10 mph faster. And the standard keeps getting pushed further out there. So don't kid yourself; meeting the tests that applied to pitchers 30-40 years ago won't get you where you want to be today.

There are, in my mind, three keys to velocity: conditioning, mechanics, and genetics. Genetics you can't do anything about, and it's a fact that taller, lankier guys have a natural advantage, while others just seem to have lightning in their joints. But the other two are within your control. If you have genetic gifts, you have the advantage, and if you work hard at the other two elements you have the inside track at success. But someone who works hard will outperform someone with natural gifts who doesn't, time after time. So even if you're not gifted, you can succeed if you work hard and work at the right things.

You are right to stress mechanics, but don't ignore conditioning or advances in the thinking towards pitching-specific conditioning. You sound to me like someone who is giving himself an excuse for not doing things you simply don't enjoy. You will not succeed on mechanics alone, without conditioning, even if you do have the genetic gifts.

I am not ignoring conditioning. What I am saying is you have to do the right type of conditioning. If you call weight training conditioning it's not going to help the pitcher much. I like plyometrics and functional training for a pitcher rather then weight training. What kind of conditioning do you think helps a pitcher? Alot of times velocity increases come from simply growth and development. I have seen increases as big as 10 mph from season to season. So you're saying todays hitters can hit the 90+ alot better then 30 years ago? The pitchers then threw a heck of a lot harder then now.

Bustamove and Midlo,

Those are both excellent posts and I agree with both of you. There is no telling how many times I have said here at this site that plyometric training as well as agility training and functional types of baseball related training is what seperates great from average. Mechanics and conditioning along with preservation of shoulder capsule/rotator are all considerations.

Bustamove, you said this in another thread and even though I didn't respond there, I totally agree. It was about players sometimes not wanting to do what's required in appropriate training and conditioning Along those lines anyway. It's much more difficult to do the right kind of training involving plyometrics and functional training than your traditional lay down on a bench and do ruin your rotator(ball & socket) bench presses!!! Not to mention getting up and sitting upright and doing military press which is equally as bad for the shoulder capsule. These are just a few examples.
ATTN PLAYERS:KEY TO VELOCITY>PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING TO YOU>READ THE FOLLOWING
I recommend light weight/high reps for shoulder capsule which has ligaments that keep the tight non-crunching and smooth ball&socket movement in your shoulder capsule. I also recommend surgical rubber tubing but make sure you start with weakest and work up to strongest tubing in N/S/E/W rubber tubing pulls. This is the only way to go in training functionally for rotator. If you stretch those ligaments that hold together that rotator, you will never have the same virgin arm-speed again in your arm-action again. Bottom line, protect your rotators!

DR JOBE will tell you this as well as every other othropedic sports specialist on the face of this earth. Be careful with rotators!!!!

I learned this through my own personal experience. I developed scar tissue around my ball&socket and rotator which caused a crunching or grinding feeling every time I moved my shoulder and especially when I threw. I played throught the pain my senior year in college and in the minors which could get unbearable pushing those throws from CF and LF in the Carolina League against seasoned pro players running all out at least Major League average speed with very few exceptions below that running grade. I was fortunate to survive but only through pure will-power and blocking out the pain mentally over and over, day after day. It's called, playing hurt. You think I let a little pain stop me from achieving my lifelong dream to sign a professional contract? No way! I was that determined but it was a challenge to run with the pack day in and day out hurt without complaining.

I finally had surgery and got scoped and the scar tissue was shaved clean around ball&socket in my throwing shoulder. Within a year, the rotator along with the ball&socket worked freely again without the grinding, popping and crunching sounds and feelings I had prior to othroscopic procedure.

My case was minor with scar tissue compared to tears which are often times the direct result of too much weight or force on rotators. Most tear cases are a lot more severe in surgery and rehab thereof. Hope I didn't upset anybody but wouldn't you rather hear from experience and prevent the same thing from happening to you? I post this because, SHEP CARES AND WANTS THE BEST FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU WHO HAVE DREAMS AND ASPIRATIONS TO FURTHER CAREERS.peace

Bustamove, so you want to increase velocity but no weight training, weighted balls long toss or drill work. Maybe you should try golf or just sitting in front of the tv all day playing video games. Or the "good old days" like some of my hs coaches did, just go out and run. My point is why did you ask the question when you didn't want an answer?

The key to velocity increase is a BALANCED workout program. That should include running, flat ground work, dry work, mound work, longtossing, proper weight training with good form and correct technique, weighted balls, plyometrics, agility training, proper core work, all done pitching specific. It is an all around the year program with different emphasis on different areas at different times of the year.

As to weighted ball progams, they can be detrimental to training if the mechanics are not sound and if the program is not properly monitored. If done properly, it can give pretty quick and dramatic results. IT MUST BE DONE CORRECTLY.

Shepster, you are right about bench press training and military press trainingbeing detrimental to the shoulder joint. You are not entirely correct. The bench press and military press can contribute if done with proper technique and not pass a 90 degree angle. With the bench press, most people do it incorrectly by not keeping the elbows by the side and letting them flair out. Also by pushing up towards the head and not straight up. They also arch their back and not keep it flat. You should, asa pitcher, never let the bar touch you chest or go past 90 degrees. Imagine doing the bench press on flat ground, that would be not past 90 degrees. I always tell pitchers to lay on the floor and use dumbells. This will protect their shoulders. The military press is the same. DON'T GO PAST 90 DEGREES.

The bottom line is that a good program is all inclusive. It covers the spectrum. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Bustamove:
I would like to know what this board thinks the key to velocity.

Genetics

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Bustamove:
I would like to know what this board thinks the key to velocity.

Response by Beezer:


Genetics

Great genetics and no mechanics and no conditioning amount to nothing. Can't do it without genetics, but can't do it on just genetics either. Many pitchers don't have great genetics and become fine mlb pitchers. Just look at David Wells. lol I will admit that great velocity takes genetics, but not genetics alone. Colt Griffin has great genetics, but connot throw a strike. You think someone with great genetics would have the aptitude to learn the mechanics to control it. That is not always the case.

Bustamove, regret to inform you that pitchers now throw substantially harder than they did decades ago. Even just 30 years ago, Nolan Ryan was considered a freak of nature when he threw 100. (Actually he was a student of mechanics and conditioning, ahead of his time.) Today there are several MLB guys who can hit 100. There were several guys who threw in the 90's 40 and 50 years ago, but not several per team.

Sometimes I wonder if this is all the result of a big mistake. A lot of emphasis in scouting seems to be placed on the RADAR gun. The idea seems to be that no matter whom you draft, you have to teach the art of pitching, so you may as well start with those who are physically gifted. Seems to me we're going to miss the next Greg Maddux with this approach. And the prevalence of arm injuries in the current era is no doubt a result of the emphasis on throwing all out all the time.

But I digress! Whether it's good or bad, smart or stupid, it's a fact. Today's pitchers throw harder than yesteryear's, whether in MLB, college, or high school.

I'm all for plyometrics, tubes and the like. But there is a place for gym weight machines as well. Talk to a professional trainer to get a program designed for you and your personal goals.

In my memory, I think the first guy to really do this was Tom Seaver. Up until him, baseball players were told to avoid weights because you could "get too tight". Seaver hit the weights as a way to prolong his career, and he did more than just add years, he stayed a winner for another 6-8 years. He proved there was a right way to do it. And at this point, we've got 25-30 years of experience to prove that there is a right way to go about weight training for baseball players generally, and for pitchers in particular.

Bustamove, the pitchers then didn't throw a heck of a lot harder then now. Actually, they didn't throw any harder. The hardest throwers then were in the upper 90's-100 just like they are now, but there are more of these pitchers now.

I think a radar gun can actually help velocity. It gives a pitcher feedback. My son used to try to throw hard and would tense up. The ball came out relatively slow. The gun did not lie, it told him how he could get the ball to come out faster. My younger son (8) will throw to a gun from the start. (Yes, I expect to get hammered for this on this website.)

Here are some tips on increasing velocity.

1. Have the intent to throw fast or quick, not hard. It is about arm speed.
2. Throw fast or quick.
3. Throw fast or quick well.

This is a change in the past on training. It parallels golf and tennis. It makes you use all the pieces that chain. It makes no sense to try to learn to throw strikes first, then change your mechanics and motion to throw faster. It is akin to trying to learn to hit a golf ball in the fairway first and long second.

There was good advice on this thread. Be careful HOW you work out to increase strength, agility and fast twitch.

I believe (1) mechanics, (2) athletic ability and work can improve velocity.

Well, not to nitpick Busta, but how do you know they didn't do long toss and weighted ball and weight training in the old days? In the old days they called it

. . . . playing catch, and they did a ton of it (even kids will keep stretching it out to see how far they can throw),

. . . . wet baseballs are heavy (they didn't have dozens upon dozens per game, especially at the HS/college/minor levels; and as a kid we had some really heavy baseballs after a night lost in the grass)

. . . and as for weight training, it may not have been very specific, but guys had to Work in the old days in the off-season, many in manual labor type jobs. Probably a bit of weight training there for some guys.

Just because they didn't have fancy names for this stuff doesn't mean they didn't do it.

lineshot, I was just interested in what people would say. I don't need no answers just think it is funny some of the ideas that come up.

I know somebody who used to pitch 40 or 50 years ago in the majors, sorry can't give out his name. He told me there was no long toss, no emphasis on weight training to gain velocity,or other things today that are being used. All he did was work on his mechanics while throwing off the mound with good timing and throwing a BASEBALL alot. Guys I'm not trying to say I know everything. I just get sick of some of the advice kids are getting today and it's not helping them improve and there are more injuries then ever.

Not nearly as funny as some of the questions.

Sounds like somebody is listening to DM.

FrankF, you are a troublemaker.

Not "lil" ole me?!?!

quote:

Originally posted by dad10:
Well, not to nitpick Busta, but how do you know they didn't do long toss and weighted ball and weight training in the old days? In the old days they called it

. . . . playing catch, and they did a ton of it (even kids will keep stretching it out to see how far they can throw),

. . . . wet baseballs are heavy (they didn't have dozens upon dozens per game, especially at the HS/college/minor levels; and as a kid we had some really heavy baseballs after a night lost in the grass)

. . . and as for weight training, it may not have been very specific, but guys had to Work in the old days in the off-season, many in manual labor type jobs. Probably a bit of weight training there for some guys.

Just because they didn't have fancy names for this stuff doesn't mean they didn't do it.

Great post. When I was a kid good baseballs cost a fortune, it seemed. A ball left in the rain can weigh 7 ounces. We still used them.

I didn’t know about all the gimmicks and high tech information and costly internet sites so I went with the conventional method with my son of workouts, light weights, and long toss --- lots of long toss. I might add that my son didn’t have great genetics. I think I topped out about 75mph ---- although his mother was pretty good about pitching a fit, I doubt that had little or no bearing on his ability to “hum” a baseball. Since I worked with my son and was able to get my son’s velocity up to 95 mph I thought about marketing my technique and establishing a “Fungo Fastball Following” but I opted to allow my son to get all the recognition for his throwing ability and to give credit where credit was due. I would feel comfortable with the pitching advice of BigHit and FrankF since they both have at least one student do extremely well.
Bustamove said:

quote:

I was just interested in what people would say. I don't need no answers just think it is funny some of the ideas that come up.

I couldn't have said that better myself......

Fungo

Hey Fungo,

Baseballpapa has one doing well also. In fact, he was drafted by the DBACKS(2006) and just signed a hefty scholarship with Florida State University He must be doing something right also

That is definitely great news about FrankF's son Josh and of course we know BigHit's son is doing well in pro ball.

Guess since I blew my shoulder out my advice isn't golden but, I would want to listen to someone with experience of what not to do so I wouldn't do the same thing if I were a HS reader here. peace, Shep

Long toss is the easy way out ???
I must be doing something wrong with my son then.

Everyone does and should LT if you plan on any kind of career in Baseball. I have never heard a coach, scout or pro player not promote LT. It is abosolutly required if your arm helth is important to you. It is one of the important things you have to do. It won't get all pitchers to 90+ but it will help you hang around until you grow up. Too many people too impatient.

BobbleheadDoll, Wow just WOW. That comment is unbelievable. You wonder why the pitching has gone downhill and the injury rate has gone up. Why is long toss required for arm health? That just doesn't make much sense to me. Makes you hang around till you grow up?? What in the world does that mean? Too many people impatient? No too many people looking for the easy way out.

LT is hard work and it is only part of the required arm strengthening routines. My son is 20 and has never had an injury. LT was a hugh part of his workout. I will always listen to the pro advice he has been given over the years. There is no magic pill but just hard work. The reference to grow up is that over thye years I have watched baseball I have seen hundreds of young ball players who were sidelined permanently by improper conditioning of their arms. Most of the hard throwers I have seen wind up blowing their arms and most of them no longer play or pitch. Let your body mature and worh on mechanics and developing gradually.

I am not joking!

This is child abuse 100%

Well if everyone does long toss at the pro level then how come there are so many injuries?

quote:

I am not joking!

This is child abuse 100%

You have got to be kidding me. lol
The above comment does not add anything to the conversation.

I can agree to disagree about LT with Bustamove. He has his views and he is in the minority, and he knows it. He believes what he believes, fine. I just know that every level of baseball from LL on up uses longtossing for arm conditioning and that it is clearly known that the increase in injuries is caused by over use on the mound at early ages. Too many innings, too often, starting too young, and too many breaking balls called by coaches too obsessed with winning. Bustamove is the only person I have seen who lays the blame on injuries solely on longtossing. There is no medical eveidence of any kind to substantiate that. It is his opinion and he is entitled to it, but realize it is not proven anywhere.

quote:

Well if everyone does long toss at the pro level then how come there are so many injuries?

There have always been injuries, they just don't play through the pain like they used to. Better detection, better treatment and a different environment and attitude toward arm protection. teams won't let a player play with any pain or injury. So it is reported more and there used to be 8 teams in each league, not 15 or 16. Of course there are more, but I would be willing to bet that in the pro ranks, the ratio would be proportionate to the old days.

LT isn't the only reason I blame on injuries, I also blame it on weighted balls, poor mechanics, and as you said overuse at a young age. IMO I just don't see how LT could help develop better pitchers. I didn't agree with BobbleheadDoll that LT is necessary to help maintain arm care.

There will always be arm injury regardless of how well you prepare. Trying to throw 90+ and mixing in CBs, changes etc is very tough on arms.
The pitching today is every bit as good as in the pld days. In the old days if you injured your arm you were usually finished. Today with all the knowledge about arms and the mechanics of throwing you are more likely to be able to come back from injury and to be less likely to injure your arm. It appears there are more injuries today because there are a lot more teams and players plus the media is more informative.

quote:

In the old days if you injured your arm you were usually finished.

Great point. Also, with guys getting repaired, they get a chance to come back that they never had in the old days, and some of them get reinjured because now they are on a gimpy wing.

Bighit, that's a valid point. I just can't believe how many pitchers threw so many innings and never got hurt in the old days. Guys like Nolan Ryan.

quote:

Bighit, that's a valid point. I just can't believe how many pitchers threw so many innings and never got hurt in the old days. Guys like Nolan Ryan.

Nolan Ryan's elbow was a freak of nature according to Dr. Andrews. He should not be able to hold a ball much less throw it. BTW, Nolan Ryan was a big LT guy. He used to start at the mound and work his way back to cf while throwing balls into the backstop behind hp.

I would love to hang around for more of this debate but it is time to get off work and go
LT with my son.

It seems like it's me against the world here. Is there anyone that's against long toss besides me?

I know pitchers who are very successful Division I college pitchers and will porbably be drafted next June '07---they long toss and long toss--one does not even warm up in the bullpen --he long tosses and then goes to the mound to start the game--no arm problems and few losses and a load of wins with a 90 plus fastball--it works so why try and change it

BustaMove & Board,

Even though I haven't voiced my opinion on LT yet, you are not alone I don't completely endorse it for the following reasons I wish to discuss in a non-confrontational manner. These reasons are only my opinion through my own experience with long toss and observations of others who use it religiously Here it goes>

When doing long toss, you change the angle of arm and release point which can cause a lot of high fastballs when you're on the mound. I can give you tons of examples. The arm slot will also change subconsciously which can also cause problems for some when changing over to the 60'6" distance from rubber. Before rebuttal towards me, just go out tomorrow and start backing up while throwing with someone and see what the arm/body/shoulder and armslot do to keep up with the greater distances as you increase distance. The upperbody will change in order to adjust and will change angle of release point. You will also find yourself dropping from HTQ(high three quarter) or OT(over-top) arm slot to a lower arm slot, more like TQ to LTQ(low three quarter) in order to throw further. Done over time, this can develop muscles at the angle condusive to throwing distances without much accuracy with a naturally developing group of muscles without much feel for command and/or location of pitches.

In a somewhat related comparison from a scout's viewpoint, I truly believe the difference between average pitchers and above average to great pitchers can be summed up in a delivery that repeats itself with the following words: location...location...location!!!

Pitchability and change of speed with command will keep hitters off-balance. Velocity is also a plus if the pitcher knows where each pitch is going. Why jeopardize changing growth and development of body-parts which are directly related to your delivery and release point, not to mention your arm angle and slot??? Shep's .02

Shepster, I agree 100%. I just think it's a waste of time because it's a completely different activity then throwing off a mound. You are releasing the ball up and crowhopping. I don't think you do that on a mound. And long toss certainly cannot help you're command so it's a waste of time IMO. That time should be used throwing off the mound working on you're spots and building you're skill. The best thing you can do is throw a baseball and work on you're timing everyday and you will have good velocity and location.

Bustamove

That is what makes this game so great--there is no definitive path--it is all about what works for the individual player--ever player is different


"Nobody plays catch anymore" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!