I tried reading through this entire topic, but because of the incredible amount of nitpicking, I only got through some. Here is what I have to say about what I read:
Yardbird-
1. You keep saying that "Newton would disagree" with the fact that stopping after planting makes you throw harder.
Anyone who claims to know enough of physics to lecture others on it should know the equation p(momentum)=m(mass) x v(velocity). And, according to your oft-quoted friend Newton, Momentum is always conserved, meaning you can't "create" it, it must be drawn from somewhere else (I.E. the earth).
So, If you keep moving after throwing the ball, your body needs momentum to keep moving, decreasing the ball's momentum (because, again, momentum can't be "created". To give the ball momentum, it has to come from your own momentum). Decreasing the ball's momentum means either decreasing its mass or decreasing its velocity, and since the ball obviously isn't getting any lighter, it takes away from the velocity of the pitch.
I don't even have to sort through the countless quotes you have in there to realize that you don't have a very solid grip on the laws of physics.
2. I don't understand why you would advise someone with front leg knee pain to shorten their stride, among other changes. "Knee pain" in its own is incredibly vague, and giving such an in-depth diagnosis is a bit premature. It could simply be that he has osgood schlatters in his knee, as MANY growing males do.
highheat55- I would check for osgood schlatters (if you don't know what this is, when I had it, I had pain that felt almost inside of my knee, on the lower part, and it hurt to push up from a bent position, like a squat). Also, I would make sure that you're plant foot isn't too closed (ideally it would be pointing to the plate), because trying to stop yourself with your foot not pointing in the direction you are heading ( with spikes on) could be twisting the knee, leading to soreness.
Bballman,
I wasn’t aware there would be credibility police assigned here at HSBW that would ticket me for giving my opinion, sounds too much like profiling.
This is the way it should be done, give him all the information, and test all the possibilities.
Remember Marshall does not claim to own pronation just that it is the correct articulation for your elbow and actually being able to extend you’re elbow with you’re triceps.
What is his percentage of pronated to supinated and you might want to count that curveball you are saying is pronated as supinated.
Many people make this mistake and unless you have close shirtless High speed frontal or arm side video not you or anybody else can tell, even the performer, this is a particularly hard motor skill to perform and has the most motor skill devices assigned to it in our pedagogy.
I’ll take your word for it and very good for him if it’s true.
When did you or them here of Marshall? What did you and them think about it at first and did they sway your opinion because you were seeking their help and believed they knew more than you? Or did you have a mind of your own?
Unfortunately this does not turn off supination but statically sets your wrist to perform a curve but still supinates it. The only way you can pronate a curve other than the thumber under slip change is to attain fore arm inside of vertical finishing elbow up. The karate chop curve is also supinated
Do you have video of his curve ball action even in poor quality?
There are many musts and TM performs them can you name them?
This is understandable where would you? All the people who ultra knock them stay, as far away from understanding them, testing them and performing them as they can and I think it’s because of the bottom half that is so un-aesthetic for our time.
Yet you have!
Is your son aware of the material? You had no examples before making you’re statement dubious.
Put him in overload sport specific training regression starting in late summer and don’t let him come out of it until February where he can then maintain and ballistic ally train and he might see that but then he would miss all those games coaches like to play and tournaments the club teams like to get into and the show cases that he will have to attend and the camps (although I like the College camps you can actually tell the coach you are in regression preparing for the spring and even demonstrate)
Just to disrupt his correct training timeline like everybody else where they attain the train to de-train doldrums.
I would like to here you’re opinion on why a pitcher with today’s methods could get knee pain and it does not sound like the patella tendon.
Imagine you’re a blind man with previous pitching experience when you were with sight and this kid said his knee was hurting when he pitched, Mr.B what could be happening?
What should I do?
So then his question would also be irresponsible, I believe you’re better than that.
I have no problem discussing this with anybody even the hard-core detractors.
What I dislike is the petty silliness by adults. You at least engage and are somewhat honest. Replace ignored with shelved and you have no contrivance statements.
The work has been done, you can actually back track from injury to the cause and back the other way and is quit simple and always right on. If you’re belief is that the traditional pitching motion is in some way healthy at times then I can see how you can have this thought. If you were to study deeper into the kinesiological information you would be able to do this also like everybody else that does.
I went off of the information given, it was probably enough, and I want pitchers to perform this way whether they have sustained an injury or not!
I was the first to call for a low quality video but knew it was not necessary, my answer would remain the same even with the very little information he have. Of course the more information the better. This goes unsaid.
With you’re idea in mind there should be a questioner when a player enters into a pitching injury thread that they have to fill out about their injury, their biological age guess, mechanical landmarks, history, and many more if we were to get it closer, maybe you should start a thread pertaining to this questioner but this kid probably put this question out at many places and got the traditional answer somewhere else and not the less stressful information and has not come back with more info. Aren’t you glad that here at HSBW he can get both forms of information and opinion.
I booted him out long ago because he learned it all and did not need me (actually all HS grads are not allowed to come in when with a different pitching coach, College) any more, if he needs me now then I have failed him. If he were with me his training would be worlds of different to what he is seeing now and mandatory.
This is you’re word, mine would be lowerd full envolvement to get a shot but still better relieved (stress) than traditional. You’re use of pejorative words is predictable. Why do that? Do you even realize you do this?
I tell all of them to acquiesce when it is time to go for that HS tryout because they have to, you just can’t bring yourself to say it can you? Should I type it again?
Exactly what I had Tyler work on, you just don’t get it. Do you get it yet?
I have seen his mechanics a thousand times and called out what he does to attain this common force application injury.
It does matter when I’m no Longer working with him and you are on some kind of quest to denigrate him and you get the idea he was not trained to perform the way he was when this a thread about some kids ailing knee. If you want to talk about TM, start a TM thread. If you want to talk Marshall open up that one.
I can see you have repeated this so many times in you’re head that it has become true for you as predicted in the old saying.
I’m not asking highheat to perform the full Crowstep motion either, you just can’t put that together, now have you put it together?
My bad, this third degree makes me edgy and distrusting! You do realize he was in HS last spring?
Understood and appreciated. Why don’t you ask some about why lateral knee stress causes this pain?
If I don’t cover things thoroughly I’m accused of false scenarios! If I cover it well then the ones that want to know will read and the ones that do not can pass or read knowing that they will then go into automatic attack mode. If I write in a loose style and give all the relevant information that I would like to be free to give I am excoriated on every misconceived notion you could think of and have to answer their misconceptions so some kid reading here is not swayed to ignore the information.
That’s nothing, another Marshall trained kid I had signed in the first round for over 50 Mil. Last year but he had to switch sports to achieve it.
He could pitch well into his 50’s if he trains correctly and tweaks his tenets up but unfortunately some of my pitchers take it to the edge of the tenet envelope and when they start feeling discomfort they take it back the other way. I’d prefer perfect mechanical practices then they have a chance to eliminate all the inflammation at different grades.
Why would you think I wouldn’t? I see displaying faults on bulletin boards is common and recorded.
That would only be if I did what you are claiming.
I’m free to answer any question especially youth pitchers, how many PM’s do you think I receive?
I can actually tell you might by you’re cadence but I have seen real good men cave on this!
Why do you think the HS coaches around here shut down scrimmages that they put on at their incoming freshman tryouts when a full Crowstep Marshall pitcher comes in?
Wohhh!! You are the first to ever encourage me on this, what a milestone!!
Been there done that, most of these kids want to pitch, the only way any of them are going to pitch Full Crowstep is if I start another Connie Mack team, it ain’t gonna happen
around here with the mentality displayed so far, the first great Full Crow stepping Marshall top half pitcher is going to come out of the heartland because there are a lot of fathers learning and practicing them there, unfettered.
Again you’re gross misunderstanding like most is astounding, Marshall also used to teach a form of the inefficient (acquiesce to pro teams) leg motion also but he is trying to distance himself from this mistake and will always have trouble putting that toothpaste back in the tube
Only the bottom half and we tweak it towards Marshall’s recommended Quisi bottom half motion.
Ignore is you’re false interpretation here, not mine and does not fit, nice try, are you going to continue in using inflammatory words where they do not exist just to justify your tack. You might want to rethink what you have written here as in other places to have a truthful and meaningful conversation otherwise you will fall further and further into misunderstanding the info.
Because everybody performs the centripetal traditional pitching mechanics, it’s a no brainier to me.
I hope one day when you’re son becomes a coach (maybe) he will be able to do this also.
Then he will never suffer lower lumbar back, hip, knee and ankle injuries and have the best bottom half drive capabilities, if his knee is sore from pitching (not congenital disease) he is not performing them and performing the known mechanic.
Again a no brainer.
No its not, I’ve done it over the phone and although I am controlling the discovery thru particular questioning and fixed the problems many times, it is you who can’t do this because you did not take advantage of the material when being aware of it.
You could do this!
Would you want to bet against me? I’ll buy you dinner at the “Claim jumper” if he has a Marshall bottom half tendencies and you can buy me a dinner at “In & Out’ if he is traditional…………..Bbman thinking now….…….see I told you, you could do it.
I’m OK with this but unfortunately highheat has left the yard.
This is like the 8th time you have repeated this false and now mephitic allegation.
Is this is like you?
It’s what I can do, it is what I have done and what I will continue to do, and I’m just a regular shmo trying to eliminate all pitching injuries.
Yet, this is not what has happened, this is just a fantasy wrapped in an enigma deep with in your continuous misapplied verbiage.
Nice try but the top half stuff has to pretty much be in the realm and the bottom can be helped.
Why again, by using your mal logic and what looks like comprehension but probably not, its just you mucking around trying to get the tooth paste out of the tube.
Boy that was refreshing and appreciated, I only had to clear up 10 fallible contentions, 4 oxymorons and 2 paradoxes that you could have put together with just a little effort, Thanx.
Selective answering while appreciated is hardly answering the tough ones!
Is your son aware of the Marshall information in its entirety?
That’s you’re hang up not mine, I know the information. You could!
You’re going to pull out the especially card now when it comes to you’re bent. Get real.
waphtuoS,
Well now you have used the word fact with in you’re mission statement making the premise of you’re statement try to answer the question about it, biased.
Earth has gravity and atmosphere, you’re example here would be in a vacuum.
It is drawn from muscle contraction caused from biochemical reactionable energy.
How can you decrease the balls momentum by its body travel if the ball it is already (“If you keep moving after throwing the ball”) released?
You have lost me here; if momentum cannot be created how did it get created? Don’t answer that I already know! You are confusing creation with conservation. The timeline we are discussing has to do with momentum from previously driving legs of you’re mass than stopped completely that also stops the ball then is restarted from a static body mass, you need to get on the same page by reading the whole thread so we don’t have to re-explain.
Tell that to the next batter you dose.
This is why we need to conserve it during drive by not having to restart it after the ball and bodies mass and ball has stopped then had to restart.
You seem to have some butter fingers also. Stay out of the popcorn when discussing physics in the biokinetic realm. There are many things left out by the static sciences when discussing timelines as you are doing.
Maybe because you did not read the thread thoroughly as you explained, you missed it, I did explain it.
When pitchers stride more than 70% of their standing height their mass remains behind and then on top of a statically positioned gloveside foot and plant it (heeled to flat, flat or ball to flat) it still ends flat and static, when the driving through contractions and then release you have to recover you’re rotation against an also static leg giving you unworkable stresses in the knee that the knee is not designed to withstand in lateral directions.
When you shorten you’re stride and stay taller you can then re-position and rotate your leg and foot to follow the rotation and add some drive with this leg also.
Especially with some one with these injuries already manifesting themselves.
Yes, but knee pain from pitching is not. Even OS has been incredibly debated in the past and miss-diagnosed often and still is, if he would have said he had pain in the patella tendon area that would have been a red flag.
Only by you’re standards, not mine. My advice would be the same even if he were healthy.
Onset OS is prevelent in Biological 10-15 yo males, if highheat falls biologically there you might be right but my mechanical fix would also help here also by eliminating the stress with in the same mechanics. I currently have 2 boys one 10 and one 11 with this affliction but both at a low grade and they do have to take brakes but greatly take advantage of the same info, this congenital condition normally corrects itself with in a short period of time depending on the grade. As you know it does not take pitching to discover this affliction but is prevalent in athletes, I had one kid 8 years ago with a high-grade affliction who is now the top running back in OC.
Watch it here! This is what I did and you are getting this right, you might catch the rath of the other posters for doing the same thing? What makes you think you can make this statement with out seeing the young man?
quote:“The subject of TM relates to your credibility on giving advice to this young man”
I wasn’t aware there would be credibility police assigned here at HSBW that would ticket me for giving my opinion, sounds too much like profiling.
quote:“I have given my son much information on pitching”
This is the way it should be done, give him all the information, and test all the possibilities.
quote:“You may say at least one part of it is Marshallian”
Remember Marshall does not claim to own pronation just that it is the correct articulation for your elbow and actually being able to extend you’re elbow with you’re triceps.
quote:“Since long before I ever heard of Marshall, he was taught to pronate his pitches”
What is his percentage of pronated to supinated and you might want to count that curveball you are saying is pronated as supinated.
quote:“his breaking ball in particular”
Many people make this mistake and unless you have close shirtless High speed frontal or arm side video not you or anybody else can tell, even the performer, this is a particularly hard motor skill to perform and has the most motor skill devices assigned to it in our pedagogy.
I’ll take your word for it and very good for him if it’s true.
quote:“Long before either myself or the people I consulted with about his pitching had ever heard of Marshall”
When did you or them here of Marshall? What did you and them think about it at first and did they sway your opinion because you were seeking their help and believed they knew more than you? Or did you have a mind of your own?
quote:“he was told not to “turn the doorknob” (or supinate) his breaking ball”
Unfortunately this does not turn off supination but statically sets your wrist to perform a curve but still supinates it. The only way you can pronate a curve other than the thumber under slip change is to attain fore arm inside of vertical finishing elbow up. The karate chop curve is also supinated
Do you have video of his curve ball action even in poor quality?
quote:“As for the rest of the Marshall tenets”
There are many musts and TM performs them can you name them?
quote:“I have not found any credible evidence that it is worth going to them”
This is understandable where would you? All the people who ultra knock them stay, as far away from understanding them, testing them and performing them as they can and I think it’s because of the bottom half that is so un-aesthetic for our time.
quote:“I have not passed them on”
Yet you have!
quote:“TM is a good example of why I wouldn’t”
Is your son aware of the material? You had no examples before making you’re statement dubious.
quote:“I would love for him to throw 96mph and get a huge contract to play in the MLB”
Put him in overload sport specific training regression starting in late summer and don’t let him come out of it until February where he can then maintain and ballistic ally train and he might see that but then he would miss all those games coaches like to play and tournaments the club teams like to get into and the show cases that he will have to attend and the camps (although I like the College camps you can actually tell the coach you are in regression preparing for the spring and even demonstrate)
Just to disrupt his correct training timeline like everybody else where they attain the train to de-train doldrums.
quote:“I would love to give some advice to the young man”
I would like to here you’re opinion on why a pitcher with today’s methods could get knee pain and it does not sound like the patella tendon.
quote:“however, I have not seen him pitch yet”
Imagine you’re a blind man with previous pitching experience when you were with sight and this kid said his knee was hurting when he pitched, Mr.B what could be happening?
What should I do?
quote:“so it would be irresponsible to give advice about something I have not seen”
So then his question would also be irresponsible, I believe you’re better than that.
quote:“That is part of my problem with you and other Marshall guys I have debated with”
I have no problem discussing this with anybody even the hard-core detractors.
What I dislike is the petty silliness by adults. You at least engage and are somewhat honest. Replace ignored with shelved and you have no contrivance statements.
quote:“Sight unseen, you give advice and mechanical criticisms”
The work has been done, you can actually back track from injury to the cause and back the other way and is quit simple and always right on. If you’re belief is that the traditional pitching motion is in some way healthy at times then I can see how you can have this thought. If you were to study deeper into the kinesiological information you would be able to do this also like everybody else that does.
quote:“Do you not think it would be better to see what you evaluate first?”
I went off of the information given, it was probably enough, and I want pitchers to perform this way whether they have sustained an injury or not!
I was the first to call for a low quality video but knew it was not necessary, my answer would remain the same even with the very little information he have. Of course the more information the better. This goes unsaid.
With you’re idea in mind there should be a questioner when a player enters into a pitching injury thread that they have to fill out about their injury, their biological age guess, mechanical landmarks, history, and many more if we were to get it closer, maybe you should start a thread pertaining to this questioner but this kid probably put this question out at many places and got the traditional answer somewhere else and not the less stressful information and has not come back with more info. Aren’t you glad that here at HSBW he can get both forms of information and opinion.
quote:“Then why not work harder to get him to perform a supposedly “non-injurious” mechanic?”
I booted him out long ago because he learned it all and did not need me (actually all HS grads are not allowed to come in when with a different pitching coach, College) any more, if he needs me now then I have failed him. If he were with me his training would be worlds of different to what he is seeing now and mandatory.
quote:“I hear that you taught him to ignore Dr. Marshall’s teachings”
This is you’re word, mine would be lowerd full envolvement to get a shot but still better relieved (stress) than traditional. You’re use of pejorative words is predictable. Why do that? Do you even realize you do this?
quote:“You tell some students to ignore his teachings”
I tell all of them to acquiesce when it is time to go for that HS tryout because they have to, you just can’t bring yourself to say it can you? Should I type it again?
quote:“yet you get on a message board and tell someone else”
Exactly what I had Tyler work on, you just don’t get it. Do you get it yet?
quote:“whose mechanics you haven’t even seen”
I have seen his mechanics a thousand times and called out what he does to attain this common force application injury.
quote:“ It matters not how it got out there that this is the case”
It does matter when I’m no Longer working with him and you are on some kind of quest to denigrate him and you get the idea he was not trained to perform the way he was when this a thread about some kids ailing knee. If you want to talk about TM, start a TM thread. If you want to talk Marshall open up that one.
quote:“what matters is that you taught him to ignore Marshall”
I can see you have repeated this so many times in you’re head that it has become true for you as predicted in the old saying.
quote:“ yet you tell others to practice the same tenets that you told TM to ignore”
I’m not asking highheat to perform the full Crowstep motion either, you just can’t put that together, now have you put it together?
quote:“Excuse me for not being right up to date on when his contract was signed”
My bad, this third degree makes me edgy and distrusting! You do realize he was in HS last spring?
quote:“I am trying to answer your questions”
Understood and appreciated. Why don’t you ask some about why lateral knee stress causes this pain?
quote:“Doing what you do in these posts is very time consuming”
If I don’t cover things thoroughly I’m accused of false scenarios! If I cover it well then the ones that want to know will read and the ones that do not can pass or read knowing that they will then go into automatic attack mode. If I write in a loose style and give all the relevant information that I would like to be free to give I am excoriated on every misconceived notion you could think of and have to answer their misconceptions so some kid reading here is not swayed to ignore the information.
quote:“Looks like his digression has earned him a lot of money!!”
That’s nothing, another Marshall trained kid I had signed in the first round for over 50 Mil. Last year but he had to switch sports to achieve it.
He could pitch well into his 50’s if he trains correctly and tweaks his tenets up but unfortunately some of my pitchers take it to the edge of the tenet envelope and when they start feeling discomfort they take it back the other way. I’d prefer perfect mechanical practices then they have a chance to eliminate all the inflammation at different grades.
quote:“Glad to see you admit that you have a fault”
Why would you think I wouldn’t? I see displaying faults on bulletin boards is common and recorded.
quote:“It is much easier to back off what you teach in the real world than to stick to your guns”
That would only be if I did what you are claiming.
quote:“in an anonymous forum where the student can’t tell you that they don’t understand or are not comfortable with what you are saying”
I’m free to answer any question especially youth pitchers, how many PM’s do you think I receive?
quote:“To be honest, I might – if they were effective”
I can actually tell you might by you’re cadence but I have seen real good men cave on this!
quote:“If they are effective, I would let them throw and make minor tweaks”
Why do you think the HS coaches around here shut down scrimmages that they put on at their incoming freshman tryouts when a full Crowstep Marshall pitcher comes in?
quote:“Then quit acquiescing!!”
Wohhh!! You are the first to ever encourage me on this, what a milestone!!
Been there done that, most of these kids want to pitch, the only way any of them are going to pitch Full Crowstep is if I start another Connie Mack team, it ain’t gonna happen
around here with the mentality displayed so far, the first great Full Crow stepping Marshall top half pitcher is going to come out of the heartland because there are a lot of fathers learning and practicing them there, unfettered.
quote:“You ARE telling them to do it a different way than what Marshall teaches”
Again you’re gross misunderstanding like most is astounding, Marshall also used to teach a form of the inefficient (acquiesce to pro teams) leg motion also but he is trying to distance himself from this mistake and will always have trouble putting that toothpaste back in the tube
Only the bottom half and we tweak it towards Marshall’s recommended Quisi bottom half motion.
quote:“Remember, you just said that you told TM to ignore Marshall’s bottom half mechanics”
Ignore is you’re false interpretation here, not mine and does not fit, nice try, are you going to continue in using inflammatory words where they do not exist just to justify your tack. You might want to rethink what you have written here as in other places to have a truthful and meaningful conversation otherwise you will fall further and further into misunderstanding the info.
quote:“I really don’t understand how you can make a judgement about someones mechanics without ever having seen them?”
Because everybody performs the centripetal traditional pitching mechanics, it’s a no brainier to me.
I hope one day when you’re son becomes a coach (maybe) he will be able to do this also.
quote:“What if this kids bottom half mechanics are acceptable within the Marshall guidelines?”
Then he will never suffer lower lumbar back, hip, knee and ankle injuries and have the best bottom half drive capabilities, if his knee is sore from pitching (not congenital disease) he is not performing them and performing the known mechanic.
Again a no brainer.
quote:“To immediately assume that his mechanics are flawed without seeing them is irresponsible.”
No its not, I’ve done it over the phone and although I am controlling the discovery thru particular questioning and fixed the problems many times, it is you who can’t do this because you did not take advantage of the material when being aware of it.
You could do this!
quote:“Maybe this kid’s bottom half is OK”
Would you want to bet against me? I’ll buy you dinner at the “Claim jumper” if he has a Marshall bottom half tendencies and you can buy me a dinner at “In & Out’ if he is traditional…………..Bbman thinking now….…….see I told you, you could do it.
quote:“but needs just a little tweak. Can’t know until you see”
I’m OK with this but unfortunately highheat has left the yard.
quote:“Once again, you taught TM to ignore the bottom half mechanics’
This is like the 8th time you have repeated this false and now mephitic allegation.
Is this is like you?
quote:“yet you critique this kid’s bottom half mechanics without having seen them”
It’s what I can do, it is what I have done and what I will continue to do, and I’m just a regular shmo trying to eliminate all pitching injuries.
quote:“If it is good enough to tell one person to ignore Marshall’s tenets”
Yet, this is not what has happened, this is just a fantasy wrapped in an enigma deep with in your continuous misapplied verbiage.
quote:“bottom or top”
Nice try but the top half stuff has to pretty much be in the realm and the bottom can be helped.
quote:“then you should not be critiquing someone else’s”
Why again, by using your mal logic and what looks like comprehension but probably not, its just you mucking around trying to get the tooth paste out of the tube.
quote:“There you go Yard, I have tried to address everything you brought up”
Boy that was refreshing and appreciated, I only had to clear up 10 fallible contentions, 4 oxymorons and 2 paradoxes that you could have put together with just a little effort, Thanx.
quote:“Don’t accuse me of not answering your questions”
Selective answering while appreciated is hardly answering the tough ones!
Is your son aware of the Marshall information in its entirety?
quote:“I also think you need to be more responsible with passing out advice – sight unseen,”
That’s you’re hang up not mine, I know the information. You could!
quote:“especially when it contradicts what you are teaching other students”
You’re going to pull out the especially card now when it comes to you’re bent. Get real.
waphtuoS,
quote:“You keep saying that "Newton would disagree" with the fact that stopping after planting makes you throw harder”
Well now you have used the word fact with in you’re mission statement making the premise of you’re statement try to answer the question about it, biased.
quote:Momentum is always conserved, meaning you can't "create" it, it must be drawn from somewhere else (I.E. the earth).
Earth has gravity and atmosphere, you’re example here would be in a vacuum.
It is drawn from muscle contraction caused from biochemical reactionable energy.
quote:” if you keep moving after throwing the ball, your body needs momentum to keep moving, decreasing the ball's momentum.
How can you decrease the balls momentum by its body travel if the ball it is already (“If you keep moving after throwing the ball”) released?
quote:(because, again, momentum can't be "created". To give the ball momentum, it has to come from your own momentum).
You have lost me here; if momentum cannot be created how did it get created? Don’t answer that I already know! You are confusing creation with conservation. The timeline we are discussing has to do with momentum from previously driving legs of you’re mass than stopped completely that also stops the ball then is restarted from a static body mass, you need to get on the same page by reading the whole thread so we don’t have to re-explain.
quote:“Decreasing the ball's momentum means either decreasing its mass or decreasing its velocity, and since the ball obviously isn't getting any lighter, it takes away from the velocity of the pitch”
Tell that to the next batter you dose.
This is why we need to conserve it during drive by not having to restart it after the ball and bodies mass and ball has stopped then had to restart.
quote:”I don't even have to sort through the countless quotes you have in there to realize that you don't have a very solid grip on the laws of physics”
You seem to have some butter fingers also. Stay out of the popcorn when discussing physics in the biokinetic realm. There are many things left out by the static sciences when discussing timelines as you are doing.
quote:” I don't understand why you would advise someone with front leg knee pain to shorten their stride”
Maybe because you did not read the thread thoroughly as you explained, you missed it, I did explain it.
When pitchers stride more than 70% of their standing height their mass remains behind and then on top of a statically positioned gloveside foot and plant it (heeled to flat, flat or ball to flat) it still ends flat and static, when the driving through contractions and then release you have to recover you’re rotation against an also static leg giving you unworkable stresses in the knee that the knee is not designed to withstand in lateral directions.
When you shorten you’re stride and stay taller you can then re-position and rotate your leg and foot to follow the rotation and add some drive with this leg also.
Especially with some one with these injuries already manifesting themselves.
quote:"Knee pain" in its own is incredibly vague”
Yes, but knee pain from pitching is not. Even OS has been incredibly debated in the past and miss-diagnosed often and still is, if he would have said he had pain in the patella tendon area that would have been a red flag.
quote:“giving such an in-depth diagnosis is a bit premature”
Only by you’re standards, not mine. My advice would be the same even if he were healthy.
quote:“ It could simply be that he has osgood schlatters in his knee, as MANY growing males do.”
Onset OS is prevelent in Biological 10-15 yo males, if highheat falls biologically there you might be right but my mechanical fix would also help here also by eliminating the stress with in the same mechanics. I currently have 2 boys one 10 and one 11 with this affliction but both at a low grade and they do have to take brakes but greatly take advantage of the same info, this congenital condition normally corrects itself with in a short period of time depending on the grade. As you know it does not take pitching to discover this affliction but is prevalent in athletes, I had one kid 8 years ago with a high-grade affliction who is now the top running back in OC.
quote:“because trying to stop yourself with your foot not pointing in the direction you are heading ( with spikes on) could be twisting the knee, leading to soreness”
Watch it here! This is what I did and you are getting this right, you might catch the rath of the other posters for doing the same thing? What makes you think you can make this statement with out seeing the young man?
Yardbird, I'm only going to address one thing here. Don't have the time or energy to debate too much. You seem to be angry about my reiterating that you told TM to ignore Marshall's teachings on the lower half. I am not making that up, I am not extrapolating something false - I am quoting you. Here is what you said earlier:
Enough said for now.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Bballman,quote:“you have a student (TM) who totally disregards your teachings”
I have explained to you many times before and I have explained to you that I explained it to you before, please comprehend because this molasses is getting close to my chin.
I’m the one who taught him to disregard Marshall’s bottom half teachings until…
Enough said for now.
Yardbird, this habit of quoting dozens of sentences (and taking some out of context) is really getting tedious to read through...
For starters, when you were advising highheat55, you firmly stated (among other comments) "stride shorter" as if it was the law. I suggested that he checks to see if he is landing closed and an explanation of why I thought it could be painful. You went into a 5 paragraph lecture on how you can exactly state what he is doing wrong and exactly how to fix it, completely leaving out all other options.
On your comment about decreasing the momentum of the ball after release if you aren't in contact with the ball- "Moving forward after the pitch" is a way to make it easier for the average athlete to understand. It is an easily recognizable flag that you aren't getting everything you can out of a pitch. I'm guessing you, with what looks like at least a basic grasp of physics, know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say that and that you pointed that out for the sake of argument.
I also don't know where I said that momentum was created within the system. The total momentum for the system (in this case, the pitcher and the ball) is constant, so unless you take away all of the momentum from the pitcher and put it in the ball, you aren't reaching the maximum velocity. If a pitcher does not stop himself *while* releasing the ball, he does not completely transfer all of the momentum.
Lastly, "your" is the possessive form of you, not "you're"(=you are). You seem to keep confusing these two and it makes some sentences tough to read.
For starters, when you were advising highheat55, you firmly stated (among other comments) "stride shorter" as if it was the law. I suggested that he checks to see if he is landing closed and an explanation of why I thought it could be painful. You went into a 5 paragraph lecture on how you can exactly state what he is doing wrong and exactly how to fix it, completely leaving out all other options.
On your comment about decreasing the momentum of the ball after release if you aren't in contact with the ball- "Moving forward after the pitch" is a way to make it easier for the average athlete to understand. It is an easily recognizable flag that you aren't getting everything you can out of a pitch. I'm guessing you, with what looks like at least a basic grasp of physics, know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say that and that you pointed that out for the sake of argument.
I also don't know where I said that momentum was created within the system. The total momentum for the system (in this case, the pitcher and the ball) is constant, so unless you take away all of the momentum from the pitcher and put it in the ball, you aren't reaching the maximum velocity. If a pitcher does not stop himself *while* releasing the ball, he does not completely transfer all of the momentum.
Lastly, "your" is the possessive form of you, not "you're"(=you are). You seem to keep confusing these two and it makes some sentences tough to read.
yardbird, if you ever respond to me, please keep it short. My readin' ain't so good.
WaphtuoS,
I just cut out the redundancies like this sentence where you say “Read through” and I dump “through”, to save bandwidth, many of the posters have a problem with taking up to much bandwidth from the people they disagree with.
It’s not a law it’s a tenet and your nit picking for no apparent reason my firmness.
This is good but when I do it I am immediately attacked by the Marshall haters club for men for doing the same instead of them just giving their opinion like me they always have to comment on my opinions every time, this is understandable because a lot of this information is opposite and new to what they have been taught and comes as quit a surprise to hear they have been sold an injurious force application and they did not notice.
Nothing I have said is written in stone, you proved that, he may have onset OS.
Embellishing by saying “exactly” seems to be the course of belief with many.
Did you want me to mention them all? There are many more, if I did you would have had nothing to add and your add was a great one.
Again that’s not what we are talking about, we were discussing whether forwards body mass adds to the velocity of the ball if this mass is stopped from a useless leg drive because there is a disconnection in the Kinetic chain of the traditional long stride from a leg lift then weak crotch drive.
Why think people at any age are simple-minded first and do not understand better or the same as you. I don’t do this to people, if they don’t understand they only need to be curious and ask or look it up.
You have lost me here within the timeline of the mechanic.
None of my clients that perform what I teach lacks in everything you can get out of your body on every pitch.
I seem to understand it better with a physicist explaining it to me with a chance to clarify with questions that would be honestly answered than listening to novices like me.
The physics of motion although conceptually easy and mathmatically complicated leaves many on the outs when it come to then adding engines (muscle contraction) in between each joint mechanic and the overlap that taes place.
No, just the facts please, no yardspeak side routes, they have failed us in the past and present, I’m done with that.
Now you are getting somewhere, No, in the traditional pitching motion this initial motion of the ball with the body mass is then completely stopped and redirected backwards actually and that is why the traditional crotch drive gives you none of this early momentum at the actual ball drive timeline.
This is what I am saying is happening with the body then the ball.
We are talking about the momentum of the body adding to the balls velocity that does not happen when the body mass has stopped then restarted, any acceleration graph shows this, clearly you do not know what we are discussing and we are going round and round.
Thanks; I will change this broken verbal mechanic, this will help me.
Bballman,
I was hoping you would have addressed the question about if your son has been exposed to this important material and why your opinion about it upsetting? I do understand why you would not direct it.
You have added more than anyone else but unfortuntely you could not stay on subject and wanted to prove a false notion, I wish I could say you have helped youth pitchers understand these important materials without running a gauntlet thru a bunch of hoopes leaving me with even less energy than you.
You have gone from the pajoritive “ignore” to now the uncomplimentary “disregard”
What’s next? It’s more frustrated than angry when someone who has no idea what the truth is makes up scenarios that do not exist to just bring in negative banter. It is even more frustrating that I have to explain this to a grown man.
You said it, and I quoted you and now your trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube, why don’t you just admit it was your word.
Yes you are! You have no knowledge of anything related and do not recognize his actual drive effort or goals.
I answered you with your own term so you would understand the sentence? I told you, you did not even know you were doing it, didn’t I. In all fairness you should listen to what I am telling you without these petty breakdowns unless you just do not recognize you do this on Marshall related subjects because after reading the last few posts I know for a fact you are better than this.
Sultanoswat,
Will do Sulty, I only say it in excruciating detail for the rude people mostly and understand that your reading skills will improve if you have to wade thru the molasses.
I think you are mentally way up on your game plan.
Out.
quote:“Yardbird, this habit of quoting dozens of sentences (and taking some out of context) is really getting tedious to read”
I just cut out the redundancies like this sentence where you say “Read through” and I dump “through”, to save bandwidth, many of the posters have a problem with taking up to much bandwidth from the people they disagree with.
quote:“you firmly stated "stride shorter" as if it was the law”
It’s not a law it’s a tenet and your nit picking for no apparent reason my firmness.
quote:“I suggested that he checks to see if he is landing closed and an explanation of why I thought it could be painful”
This is good but when I do it I am immediately attacked by the Marshall haters club for men for doing the same instead of them just giving their opinion like me they always have to comment on my opinions every time, this is understandable because a lot of this information is opposite and new to what they have been taught and comes as quit a surprise to hear they have been sold an injurious force application and they did not notice.
quote:“You went into a 5 paragraph lecture on how you can exactly state what he is doing”
Nothing I have said is written in stone, you proved that, he may have onset OS.
Embellishing by saying “exactly” seems to be the course of belief with many.
quote:“wrong and exactly how to fix it, completely leaving out all other options”
Did you want me to mention them all? There are many more, if I did you would have had nothing to add and your add was a great one.
quote:“On your comment about decreasing the momentum of the ball after release if you aren't in contact with the ball”
Again that’s not what we are talking about, we were discussing whether forwards body mass adds to the velocity of the ball if this mass is stopped from a useless leg drive because there is a disconnection in the Kinetic chain of the traditional long stride from a leg lift then weak crotch drive.
quote:"Moving forward after the pitch" is a way to make it easier for the average athlete to understand.
Why think people at any age are simple-minded first and do not understand better or the same as you. I don’t do this to people, if they don’t understand they only need to be curious and ask or look it up.
quote:“It is an easily recognizable flag that you aren't getting everything you can out of a pitch”
You have lost me here within the timeline of the mechanic.
None of my clients that perform what I teach lacks in everything you can get out of your body on every pitch.
quote:“I'm guessing you, with what looks like at least a basic grasp of physics”
I seem to understand it better with a physicist explaining it to me with a chance to clarify with questions that would be honestly answered than listening to novices like me.
The physics of motion although conceptually easy and mathmatically complicated leaves many on the outs when it come to then adding engines (muscle contraction) in between each joint mechanic and the overlap that taes place.
quote:“know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say that and that you pointed that out for the sake of argument”
No, just the facts please, no yardspeak side routes, they have failed us in the past and present, I’m done with that.
quote:” The total momentum for the system (in this case, the pitcher and the ball) is constant”
Now you are getting somewhere, No, in the traditional pitching motion this initial motion of the ball with the body mass is then completely stopped and redirected backwards actually and that is why the traditional crotch drive gives you none of this early momentum at the actual ball drive timeline.
quote:“so unless you take away all of the momentum”
This is what I am saying is happening with the body then the ball.
quote:“If a pitcher does not stop himself *while* releasing the ball, he does not completely transfer all of the momentum”
We are talking about the momentum of the body adding to the balls velocity that does not happen when the body mass has stopped then restarted, any acceleration graph shows this, clearly you do not know what we are discussing and we are going round and round.
quote:Lastly, "your" is the possessive form of you, not "you're"(=you are). You seem to keep confusing these two and it makes some sentences tough to read.
Thanks; I will change this broken verbal mechanic, this will help me.
Bballman,
quote:“I'm only going to address one thing here”
I was hoping you would have addressed the question about if your son has been exposed to this important material and why your opinion about it upsetting? I do understand why you would not direct it.
quote:“Don't have the time or energy to debate too much”
You have added more than anyone else but unfortuntely you could not stay on subject and wanted to prove a false notion, I wish I could say you have helped youth pitchers understand these important materials without running a gauntlet thru a bunch of hoopes leaving me with even less energy than you.
quote:“You seem to be angry about my reiterating that you told TM to ignore Marshall's teachings”
You have gone from the pajoritive “ignore” to now the uncomplimentary “disregard”
What’s next? It’s more frustrated than angry when someone who has no idea what the truth is makes up scenarios that do not exist to just bring in negative banter. It is even more frustrating that I have to explain this to a grown man.
quote:“on the lower half. I am not making that up”
You said it, and I quoted you and now your trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube, why don’t you just admit it was your word.
quote:“I am not extrapolating something false”
Yes you are! You have no knowledge of anything related and do not recognize his actual drive effort or goals.
quote:“I am quoting you. Here is what you said earlier”
I answered you with your own term so you would understand the sentence? I told you, you did not even know you were doing it, didn’t I. In all fairness you should listen to what I am telling you without these petty breakdowns unless you just do not recognize you do this on Marshall related subjects because after reading the last few posts I know for a fact you are better than this.
Sultanoswat,
Will do Sulty, I only say it in excruciating detail for the rude people mostly and understand that your reading skills will improve if you have to wade thru the molasses.
I think you are mentally way up on your game plan.
Out.
Yard, I was trying to show you, with a quote from you, that you told TM to disregard Marshall's bottom half mechanics. I had made the comment that if TM was a student of yours, either he disregarded what you said, or you taught him to pitch using mechanics other than Marshall's.
This is a quote by yourself in response to me:
"I’m the one who taught him to disregard Marshall’s bottom half teachings"
Did you not say that to me? I took this quote from page two of this thread. Maybe I am not understanding something, but it sounds pretty clear to me - you taught TM to disregard Marshall's bottom half teachings.
And I already answered your other question. I taught him to pronate his pitches long before I ever heard of Marshall. This has been over the last 8 years. I only started reading about Marshall maybe 2-3 years ago. I don't know if the other guys have heard of Marshall to this day. I have passed on to him what I think will be beneficial to his pitching motion. As much as I have heard about and read about Marshall and his tenets, I am not convinced that much of it will further his baseball life in a meaningful way. Therefore I have not passed much of it on. The guys I have seen who use Marshall tenets and are successful, such as TM, look much more similar to traditional pitchers than Marshall pitchers.
Perhaps to further your agenda, you can work more systematically to incorporate some of Marshall's ideas. There must be some components of his delivery that can be incorporated into a traditional delivery. That would be much easier to digest than a total overhaul of everything every successful pitcher does. When the first thing you - or other Marshlites suggest whenever anyone asks a question is to change everything you have ever been taught and everything that every other successful pitcher has ever been taught over the last 120 years, of course people get turned off. It's human nature.
I would say that my son is a pretty successful pitcher right now. Why would I want to change everything he does to make him successful? However, if I could tweak his delivery to make him more successful, that I would entertain, as I'm sure most would. Sometimes it's not as much the message, but the delivery and strategy of delivering the message.
Hope this helps you better understand my stance.
This is a quote by yourself in response to me:
"I’m the one who taught him to disregard Marshall’s bottom half teachings"
Did you not say that to me? I took this quote from page two of this thread. Maybe I am not understanding something, but it sounds pretty clear to me - you taught TM to disregard Marshall's bottom half teachings.
And I already answered your other question. I taught him to pronate his pitches long before I ever heard of Marshall. This has been over the last 8 years. I only started reading about Marshall maybe 2-3 years ago. I don't know if the other guys have heard of Marshall to this day. I have passed on to him what I think will be beneficial to his pitching motion. As much as I have heard about and read about Marshall and his tenets, I am not convinced that much of it will further his baseball life in a meaningful way. Therefore I have not passed much of it on. The guys I have seen who use Marshall tenets and are successful, such as TM, look much more similar to traditional pitchers than Marshall pitchers.
Perhaps to further your agenda, you can work more systematically to incorporate some of Marshall's ideas. There must be some components of his delivery that can be incorporated into a traditional delivery. That would be much easier to digest than a total overhaul of everything every successful pitcher does. When the first thing you - or other Marshlites suggest whenever anyone asks a question is to change everything you have ever been taught and everything that every other successful pitcher has ever been taught over the last 120 years, of course people get turned off. It's human nature.
I would say that my son is a pretty successful pitcher right now. Why would I want to change everything he does to make him successful? However, if I could tweak his delivery to make him more successful, that I would entertain, as I'm sure most would. Sometimes it's not as much the message, but the delivery and strategy of delivering the message.
Hope this helps you better understand my stance.
Yardbird, explain to me how the body is "stopping and restarting" in a traditional windup. The system starts gaining momentum when the pitcher pushes off the rubber towards home, and should stop at the plant. Where is it "restarting"?
Also, justifying your excessively long posts and quotes with "saving bandwidth" is one of the most redundant things I've ever heard, it takes much less to load a page if the posts are short and concise.
Also, justifying your excessively long posts and quotes with "saving bandwidth" is one of the most redundant things I've ever heard, it takes much less to load a page if the posts are short and concise.
Bballman,
Did you show your self where you made your mistake of diminishing his effort and mine?
Again I used the word you used to keep it in your context, it is still a misplaced word.
Yes and the escalative word also.
After what? This is the question you have to answer for yourself
You are repeating yourself, what’s the difference between “ignored”, “disregarded” and “shelved”?
I told you in order to train with an iron ball or wrist weights they have to be used to keep from being injured, how would this be disregarding them? The word should be shelved when pitching in competition for advancement. can you see it now?
Never mind just let it go. Being part of the herd is also human nature.
That is not my question and you know it, you are more intelligent than that.
Did you share all this information with him?
This is what I am trying to convey to you, you seem to think that unless you use the full Crowhop leg drive then you do not posses Marshall top half tenets or there is not a quasi-Marshall motion when there is.
You mean my quest to eliminate all the traditional pitching injuries thru adoption of the main Marshall tenets.
How do you think I produced TM and all the rest? It sure helped Mark Sanchez also.
You really need to take off the horse blinders. Most of the components are and can be performed and Marshall knows this also remember he performed most of them himself while pitching in the MLB, how do you think he got the nick name of “Iron” because he was a genetic freak like many think, he was not, he just knew how to apply exercise, Kinesiologic mechanical and motor skill physiological principles.
Nothing is hard about this information! Successful does not include taking off two years
Every 6 because you have to recover from debilitating injuries and costing the MLB owners 500 million every year in lost service
Why do you list me with them? I have never said to change everything, If you have noticed I enter posts when a particular injury is talked about that can be eliminated with just the mechanical fix I give. Just because the whole system is much better to produce the best possible mechanic does not mean I can’t figure out that we are not going to be handed the ball if we use the crowstep!!!!! I already understand that you, me and Marshall are going to be dead before any of this is even tried by many and finally be brought in. You have to start somewhere!
I know the complete history of athletic mechanical change from the jump shot, high jump, and the field goal kick to the now trying to be banned Dolphin kick. The difference is fosbury had a bar we don’t and I agree.
Not asking you to change “everything” and this has nothing to do with successful, its about injuries and the most efficient mechanic, I have found that kids like your son who is probably a high motor skill learner become even more successful plus enduring.
Teach him that Marshall torque game (pronated cutter, slider) and watch out.
I had an average lefty learn just this and he broke all the strike out records at OCC
with a single game record of 19 that was held since 1953. There are many little tweaks that can be used. The main tenets are very important.
I came into this Internet message board use late and the damage was already done by those that do the same thing they are doing to me. I’m sure you were not a part of that but I know for a fact that many others who had other Marshall posters removed because they could not have a cordial (both) conversation instead of getting all emotional and start slinging their form of personal garbage attacks that escalate. So, rather than make that mistake I have decided to just give the facts as I have personally tested them, all I can tell you is what has happened on my end and I would also like to do this here.
You are a pleasure to talk to and hope you join in always even if you disagree.
waph2uoS,
In efficient Kinesiological force application it is important to maintain an overlapping (muscle contraction from full length) kinetic chain. The traditional leg lift violates this athletic performance tenet and many more.
When we discussed body mass and its very small amount of forwards movement from dropping in I said that none of this forwards movement that is good is maintained thru
Conservation by beingstopped long before the ball actually moves in its forwards drive.
Watch Lincecum who people say has the best and fastest forwards mass acceleration from his very long jump scissors stride that is true; you can see this from frame 1 thru frame 87. When his heel hits then articulates to the ball his glove side leg isometrically contracts (firms up at its postural angle)) and stops all of this forwards inertia that goes right into the earth that Newton's laws calculate, unfortunately all of this early speed that would have counted as forwards velocity add is then stopped and can not be counted because the ball is actually going backwards at this timeline. It takes him until frame 130 (52 frames later) before the ball actually starts its forwards acceleration that is actually accelerating towards 3rd base and home at the same time, this makes for another force application problem redirecting right angle mass continually until it gets straightened out.
This has been known ever since Dr.Marshall proved it 40 years ago with 500 frames a second clear shirtless 35 MM film that nobody else uses because of difficulty and cost.
All traditional crotch driving pitchers have this discontinuity in some form.
Better to continue this pre achieved bady mass velocity through leg drive plant, ball drive and release than loose it even though it is negligible.
Watch how when it actually counts there is almost no leg action helping the pitch.
His back side leg is actually acting like an anchor.
Lincecum while actually pitching very close to where Marshall wants by attaining an inside of vertical position and inwardly rotating his humerus and powerfully pronating most of his pitches gets nothing from his legs and everything from his Latisimus dorsi and triceps unlike most traditional pitchers. He rates very high on the MTS and has been favorably critiqued on Marshalls web site thoroughly accept for his long stride and forearm bounce that eats away at his UCL.
I believe he will pitch healthier than all other MLB pitchers and since he attains “mid humeral transition” that puts less stress on the UCL than others.
True, at this point we are doing pretty well in gaining momentum and conserving it with a crotch splitting drive
This is where the kinetic chain becomes disconnected! The word should be changed to shouldn’t if performed correctly.
Right when the ball finally starts its forwards movement you can see him bend his back forwards using what is called angulation to now get just a very little forwards mass acceleration at this point that actually counts towards the whole.
I know, I have had several (redundancy) people mention this whom themselves had several thousands of posts and many pictures or diagrams.
No worries, I know it is just belly acking about something else they read so I just let it go.
This seems to be many posters justification for putting out useless information.
quote:“Yard, I was trying to show you”
Did you show your self where you made your mistake of diminishing his effort and mine?
Again I used the word you used to keep it in your context, it is still a misplaced word.
quote:"I’m the one who taught him to disregard Marshall’s bottom half teachings"
Yes and the escalative word also.
After what? This is the question you have to answer for yourself
quote:I took this quote from page two of this thread. Maybe I am not understanding something.
You are repeating yourself, what’s the difference between “ignored”, “disregarded” and “shelved”?
quote:“you taught TM to disregard Marshall's bottom half teachings”
I told you in order to train with an iron ball or wrist weights they have to be used to keep from being injured, how would this be disregarding them? The word should be shelved when pitching in competition for advancement. can you see it now?
Never mind just let it go. Being part of the herd is also human nature.
quote:” I taught him to pronate his pitches long before I ever heard of Marshall”
That is not my question and you know it, you are more intelligent than that.
quote:This has been over the last 8 years. I only started reading about Marshall maybe 2-3 years ago
Did you share all this information with him?
quote:The guys I have seen who use Marshall tenets and are successful, such as TM, look much more similar to traditional pitchers than Marshall pitchers.
This is what I am trying to convey to you, you seem to think that unless you use the full Crowhop leg drive then you do not posses Marshall top half tenets or there is not a quasi-Marshall motion when there is.
quote:”Perhaps to further your agenda”
You mean my quest to eliminate all the traditional pitching injuries thru adoption of the main Marshall tenets.
quote:“you can work more systematically to incorporate some of Marshall's ideas”
How do you think I produced TM and all the rest? It sure helped Mark Sanchez also.
quote:There must be some components of his delivery that can be incorporated into a traditional delivery”
You really need to take off the horse blinders. Most of the components are and can be performed and Marshall knows this also remember he performed most of them himself while pitching in the MLB, how do you think he got the nick name of “Iron” because he was a genetic freak like many think, he was not, he just knew how to apply exercise, Kinesiologic mechanical and motor skill physiological principles.
quote:That would be much easier to digest than a total overhaul of everything every successful pitcher does”
Nothing is hard about this information! Successful does not include taking off two years
Every 6 because you have to recover from debilitating injuries and costing the MLB owners 500 million every year in lost service
quote:“When the first thing you - or other Marshlites suggest whenever anyone asks a question is to change everything”
Why do you list me with them? I have never said to change everything, If you have noticed I enter posts when a particular injury is talked about that can be eliminated with just the mechanical fix I give. Just because the whole system is much better to produce the best possible mechanic does not mean I can’t figure out that we are not going to be handed the ball if we use the crowstep!!!!! I already understand that you, me and Marshall are going to be dead before any of this is even tried by many and finally be brought in. You have to start somewhere!
quote:“of course people get turned off. It's human nature”
I know the complete history of athletic mechanical change from the jump shot, high jump, and the field goal kick to the now trying to be banned Dolphin kick. The difference is fosbury had a bar we don’t and I agree.
quote:”Why would I want to change everything he does to make him successful?”
Not asking you to change “everything” and this has nothing to do with successful, its about injuries and the most efficient mechanic, I have found that kids like your son who is probably a high motor skill learner become even more successful plus enduring.
quote:“However, if I could tweak his delivery to make him more successful, that I would entertain”
Teach him that Marshall torque game (pronated cutter, slider) and watch out.
I had an average lefty learn just this and he broke all the strike out records at OCC
with a single game record of 19 that was held since 1953. There are many little tweaks that can be used. The main tenets are very important.
quote:“Sometimes it's not as much the message, but the delivery and strategy of delivering the message”
I came into this Internet message board use late and the damage was already done by those that do the same thing they are doing to me. I’m sure you were not a part of that but I know for a fact that many others who had other Marshall posters removed because they could not have a cordial (both) conversation instead of getting all emotional and start slinging their form of personal garbage attacks that escalate. So, rather than make that mistake I have decided to just give the facts as I have personally tested them, all I can tell you is what has happened on my end and I would also like to do this here.
quote:”Hope this helps you better understand my stance”
You are a pleasure to talk to and hope you join in always even if you disagree.
waph2uoS,
quote:“explain to me how the body is "stopping and restarting" in a traditional windup”
In efficient Kinesiological force application it is important to maintain an overlapping (muscle contraction from full length) kinetic chain. The traditional leg lift violates this athletic performance tenet and many more.
When we discussed body mass and its very small amount of forwards movement from dropping in I said that none of this forwards movement that is good is maintained thru
Conservation by beingstopped long before the ball actually moves in its forwards drive.
Watch Lincecum who people say has the best and fastest forwards mass acceleration from his very long jump scissors stride that is true; you can see this from frame 1 thru frame 87. When his heel hits then articulates to the ball his glove side leg isometrically contracts (firms up at its postural angle)) and stops all of this forwards inertia that goes right into the earth that Newton's laws calculate, unfortunately all of this early speed that would have counted as forwards velocity add is then stopped and can not be counted because the ball is actually going backwards at this timeline. It takes him until frame 130 (52 frames later) before the ball actually starts its forwards acceleration that is actually accelerating towards 3rd base and home at the same time, this makes for another force application problem redirecting right angle mass continually until it gets straightened out.
This has been known ever since Dr.Marshall proved it 40 years ago with 500 frames a second clear shirtless 35 MM film that nobody else uses because of difficulty and cost.
All traditional crotch driving pitchers have this discontinuity in some form.
Better to continue this pre achieved bady mass velocity through leg drive plant, ball drive and release than loose it even though it is negligible.
Watch how when it actually counts there is almost no leg action helping the pitch.
His back side leg is actually acting like an anchor.
Lincecum while actually pitching very close to where Marshall wants by attaining an inside of vertical position and inwardly rotating his humerus and powerfully pronating most of his pitches gets nothing from his legs and everything from his Latisimus dorsi and triceps unlike most traditional pitchers. He rates very high on the MTS and has been favorably critiqued on Marshalls web site thoroughly accept for his long stride and forearm bounce that eats away at his UCL.
I believe he will pitch healthier than all other MLB pitchers and since he attains “mid humeral transition” that puts less stress on the UCL than others.
quote:“The system starts gaining momentum when the pitcher pushes off the rubber towards home”
True, at this point we are doing pretty well in gaining momentum and conserving it with a crotch splitting drive
quote:“ should stop at the plant”
This is where the kinetic chain becomes disconnected! The word should be changed to shouldn’t if performed correctly.
quote:Where is it "restarting"?
Right when the ball finally starts its forwards movement you can see him bend his back forwards using what is called angulation to now get just a very little forwards mass acceleration at this point that actually counts towards the whole.
quote:” justifying your excessively long posts and quotes with "saving bandwidth" is one of the most redundant things I've ever heard”
I know, I have had several (redundancy) people mention this whom themselves had several thousands of posts and many pictures or diagrams.
quote:“it takes much less to load a page if the posts are short and concise”
No worries, I know it is just belly acking about something else they read so I just let it go.
This seems to be many posters justification for putting out useless information.
Yardbird,
I don't understand why you think this "stopping" (if you can even call it that) is hurting the windup. A pitcher planting and holding guarantees that his arm will whip through his motion at max speed.
I don't understand why you think this "stopping" (if you can even call it that) is hurting the windup. A pitcher planting and holding guarantees that his arm will whip through his motion at max speed.
Waph2uoS
It is not hurting the wind up, it is just an unnecessary mechanic that is a gateway mechanic for over (back, hip, knee), stress, this one aspect of leg drive is just not adding the slow forwards mass that every body thinks, this is why we want to bring the outfield Crowhop the fastest mechanic you can perform to the mound with its actually fully rotattionalinear non injurious drive.
What it hurts is the athlete!
I just showed you how the body mass comes to a complete stop with high speed grainy 250 frames a second video and you actually see it but since now with this old technology that does not get used by the mainstream baseball establishments because they are so far behind other athletics, you perceive it as what you believed before.
Call it like it is, now that you can see it!
A pitcher planting and holding guarantees that his arm will whip through his motion and conserve the leg driven body mass will attain max speed.
Understand how an overhead acceleration graph works in athletic contractive performance where only the forwards movement of the ball can be counted as positive and any power that actually moves it forwards is started at that time and all other earlier mechanics are wasted into getting the ball in position to actually make forwards force, the humeral/forearm transition.
quote:“I don't understand why you think this "stopping" is hurting the windup.”
It is not hurting the wind up, it is just an unnecessary mechanic that is a gateway mechanic for over (back, hip, knee), stress, this one aspect of leg drive is just not adding the slow forwards mass that every body thinks, this is why we want to bring the outfield Crowhop the fastest mechanic you can perform to the mound with its actually fully rotattionalinear non injurious drive.
What it hurts is the athlete!
quote:“(if you can even call it that)”
I just showed you how the body mass comes to a complete stop with high speed grainy 250 frames a second video and you actually see it but since now with this old technology that does not get used by the mainstream baseball establishments because they are so far behind other athletics, you perceive it as what you believed before.
Call it like it is, now that you can see it!
quote:“A pitcher planting and holding guarantees that his arm will whip through his motion at max speed.”
A pitcher planting and holding guarantees that his arm will whip through his motion and conserve the leg driven body mass will attain max speed.
Understand how an overhead acceleration graph works in athletic contractive performance where only the forwards movement of the ball can be counted as positive and any power that actually moves it forwards is started at that time and all other earlier mechanics are wasted into getting the ball in position to actually make forwards force, the humeral/forearm transition.
Yard, let me get this straight. So, what you are saying is that since pitchers are "stopping" during their delivery, everything they do prior to that is useless, right? If that was the case, a pitcher should be able to place his front foot where it would normally land, place the back foot near the rubber and put the arm in a static position and just throw the ball from there and produce the same velocities as he would were he going through the entire process as he normally would.
I am not a physics guy, but that does not seem possible. Some, if not all of the forward momentum must go somewhere to assist the upper body and arm in propelling the ball.
I am not a physics guy, but that does not seem possible. Some, if not all of the forward momentum must go somewhere to assist the upper body and arm in propelling the ball.
I find it funny that Yardbird's "Marshall Pitcher" does 90 percent of what Marshall does not approve of. Many traditional pitchers are at about 85%...Go figure.
Bballman,
In order to actually get it straight you need to stay with what we are talking about.
That is does the injurious gateway leg lifted “leg drive” that carries your body mass forwards add any velocity from this forwards movement.
You must get the words correct in the timeline, “delivery” covers all of the pitching motion, if you said “early delivery “ it would put it in to context and what I am saying.
Useless in adding the early velocity of the body’s mass. Not useless for postural positioning to project with out leg drive. “Everything” would be the useless aspect here
Since you have gotten the case premise wrong again the next sentences will not work.
You would not be able to get it all but close because you would not be able to attain the back angulation (full length contractive position) that you attain from eliminating the legs altogether, remember even if you use the set position non leg lift you can attain the proper posture with out a huge leg lifted drop in and still attain your highest attainable velocity.
It’s all postural at this point! The legs are acting as a brace base against the ground isometrically (no joint movement) contracting to manage your gravitational weight. Go back and look at lincecums legs during humeral transition, they have no forwards movement during the whole sequence.
With the Crow-step mechanic your legs are driving from one leg to the other with in the whole delivery plus allowing you to articulate with out unnecessary stress plus putting you in a better defensive position by landing the recovered ball arm leg instead of up in the air with your back bent unnecessarily.
The only way this can happen is to stride shorter, stay taller and drive the ball through your core and shoulder rotation.
If watching this high-speed video does not make people think in a different light then they have other issues to get over, I should not have to deal with those.
MTS,
I find it sad and disturbing that MTS has an axe to grind and he can’t figure out why, when all he has to do is go back to when he e-mailed Marshall and instead of reacting to the shock of having trusting the brain trust in established baseball personnel, taught his children injurious mechanics and then go mentally blank and should have listened to the mechanical advice given by the good Dr.Marshall instead of vowing to destroy all Marshall information.
In a thread called “landing Leg” that is about knee injuries that this kid intuitively understood it was from his land in some way that caused the gateway then twisting of his knee. You think it is important to lie about a completely different subject and what you understand about any mechanics performed by anybody.
You really need to get over this and come out of your self-imposed shell of madness then a conversation about these issues can be discussed with out personal jabs and gross misunderstandings. I would really like to see you add in with some useful discourse.
quote:“Yard, let me get this straight’
In order to actually get it straight you need to stay with what we are talking about.
That is does the injurious gateway leg lifted “leg drive” that carries your body mass forwards add any velocity from this forwards movement.
quote:“what you are saying is that since pitchers are "stopping" during their delivery”
You must get the words correct in the timeline, “delivery” covers all of the pitching motion, if you said “early delivery “ it would put it in to context and what I am saying.
quote:“everything they do prior to that is useless, right?”
Useless in adding the early velocity of the body’s mass. Not useless for postural positioning to project with out leg drive. “Everything” would be the useless aspect here
quote:“If that was the case”
Since you have gotten the case premise wrong again the next sentences will not work.
quote:“I am not a physics guy, but that does not seem possible”
You would not be able to get it all but close because you would not be able to attain the back angulation (full length contractive position) that you attain from eliminating the legs altogether, remember even if you use the set position non leg lift you can attain the proper posture with out a huge leg lifted drop in and still attain your highest attainable velocity.
quote:“Some, if not all of the forward momentum must go somewhere to assist the upper body and arm in propelling the ball.”
It’s all postural at this point! The legs are acting as a brace base against the ground isometrically (no joint movement) contracting to manage your gravitational weight. Go back and look at lincecums legs during humeral transition, they have no forwards movement during the whole sequence.
With the Crow-step mechanic your legs are driving from one leg to the other with in the whole delivery plus allowing you to articulate with out unnecessary stress plus putting you in a better defensive position by landing the recovered ball arm leg instead of up in the air with your back bent unnecessarily.
The only way this can happen is to stride shorter, stay taller and drive the ball through your core and shoulder rotation.
If watching this high-speed video does not make people think in a different light then they have other issues to get over, I should not have to deal with those.
MTS,
quote:“I find it funny”
I find it sad and disturbing that MTS has an axe to grind and he can’t figure out why, when all he has to do is go back to when he e-mailed Marshall and instead of reacting to the shock of having trusting the brain trust in established baseball personnel, taught his children injurious mechanics and then go mentally blank and should have listened to the mechanical advice given by the good Dr.Marshall instead of vowing to destroy all Marshall information.
quote:“Yardbird's "Marshall Pitcher" does 90 percent of what Marshall does not approve of. Many traditional pitchers are at about 85%...Go figure”
In a thread called “landing Leg” that is about knee injuries that this kid intuitively understood it was from his land in some way that caused the gateway then twisting of his knee. You think it is important to lie about a completely different subject and what you understand about any mechanics performed by anybody.
You really need to get over this and come out of your self-imposed shell of madness then a conversation about these issues can be discussed with out personal jabs and gross misunderstandings. I would really like to see you add in with some useful discourse.
quote:Useless in adding the early velocity of the body’s mass. Not useless for postural positioning to project with out leg drive. “Everything” would be the useless aspect here
I don't have a clue what "to project with out leg drive" is supposed to mean. Do you mean with out leg drive? Or without leg drive? And by "project" you mean moving towards home? Your language is very confusing....
Yardbird...Your pitcher is not a Marshall type pitcher. You "Taught him this" and yet you spout Marshall. Seems you may be the Marshall hater.
I don't understand why people listen to him, he never practiced what he preached, and I can count on one hand the amount of pitchers there have been in the MLB that even resembled his teachings, let alone anyone who was actually successful in the big leagues.
Waph2uoS,
think a little it will come to you!…………. Ok never mind.
It means to contract with force from the muscles of the core, shoulders and arm without the use off leg drive muscle contractions other than static isometric (muscle flexing with out plioangloss (greater joint angle) movement) muscle contractions.
Typos are confusing to some but not to many, please excuse me.
If the legs are not driving while the ball is moving forwards they are not contributing with their pedal action but with their base (static) structural action.
Well not necessarily some pitchers are wild but yes generally. I was trying to dumb down the words and speak yard but apparently this did not work for you
This is why questions can help, are you still willing to ask them? Do you understand now? Do you agree or disagree now that you have had a chance to look at it and think about it? Go look at it again and tell me if what I have said is not what you are seeing?
As more correctly placed High-speed video comes out you are going to see a lot of new discussion come out about what is really happening. No more smoke and mirrors explanations needed, just the facts please.
quote:I don't have a clue what "to project with out leg drive" is supposed to mean”
think a little it will come to you!…………. Ok never mind.
It means to contract with force from the muscles of the core, shoulders and arm without the use off leg drive muscle contractions other than static isometric (muscle flexing with out plioangloss (greater joint angle) movement) muscle contractions.
quote:“Do you mean with out leg drive?
Typos are confusing to some but not to many, please excuse me.
quote:“Or without leg drive?”
If the legs are not driving while the ball is moving forwards they are not contributing with their pedal action but with their base (static) structural action.
quote:And by "project" you mean moving towards home?
Well not necessarily some pitchers are wild but yes generally. I was trying to dumb down the words and speak yard but apparently this did not work for you
quote:“Your language is very confusing”
This is why questions can help, are you still willing to ask them? Do you understand now? Do you agree or disagree now that you have had a chance to look at it and think about it? Go look at it again and tell me if what I have said is not what you are seeing?
As more correctly placed High-speed video comes out you are going to see a lot of new discussion come out about what is really happening. No more smoke and mirrors explanations needed, just the facts please.
Yardbird you throw a bunch of words together with out even knowing what they mean. Pitchers like Lincecum pre-stretch the muscles of the core (Frame 88) (Marshall thinks muscles do not stretch), that then powerfully contract...more powerfully than the triceps muscles can on its own. The leg plant helps initiate the turn of the powerful hips (This transfer is happening at frame 130). THIS is why Lincecum and Tyler can throw hard, not because of Marshall.
Bumped to the Marshall thread.
