Bballman,quote:
“The subject of TM relates to your credibility on giving advice to this young man”
I wasn’t aware there would be credibility police assigned here at HSBW that would ticket me for giving my opinion, sounds too much like profiling.
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“I have given my son much information on pitching”
This is the way it should be done, give him all the information, and test all the possibilities.
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“You may say at least one part of it is Marshallian”
Remember Marshall does not claim to own pronation just that it is the correct articulation for your elbow and actually being able to extend you’re elbow with you’re triceps.
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“Since long before I ever heard of Marshall, he was taught to pronate his pitches”
What is his percentage of pronated to supinated and you might want to count that curveball you are saying is pronated as supinated.
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“his breaking ball in particular”
Many people make this mistake and unless you have close shirtless High speed frontal or arm side video not you or anybody else can tell, even the performer, this is a particularly hard motor skill to perform and has the most motor skill devices assigned to it in our pedagogy.
I’ll take your word for it and very good for him if it’s true.
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“Long before either myself or the people I consulted with about his pitching had ever heard of Marshall”
When did you or them here of Marshall? What did you and them think about it at first and did they sway your opinion because you were seeking their help and believed they knew more than you? Or did you have a mind of your own?
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“he was told not to “turn the doorknob” (or supinate) his breaking ball”
Unfortunately this does not turn off supination but statically sets your wrist to perform a curve but still supinates it. The only way you can pronate a curve other than the thumber under slip change is to attain fore arm inside of vertical finishing elbow up. The karate chop curve is also supinated
Do you have video of his curve ball action even in poor quality?
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“As for the rest of the Marshall tenets”
There are many musts and TM performs them can you name them?
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“I have not found any credible evidence that it is worth going to them”
This is understandable where would you? All the people who ultra knock them stay, as far away from understanding them, testing them and performing them as they can and I think it’s because of the bottom half that is so un-aesthetic for our time.
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“I have not passed them on”
Yet you have!
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“TM is a good example of why I wouldn’t”
Is your son aware of the material? You had no examples before making you’re statement dubious.
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“I would love for him to throw 96mph and get a huge contract to play in the MLB”
Put him in overload sport specific training regression starting in late summer and don’t let him come out of it until February where he can then maintain and ballistic ally train and he might see that but then he would miss all those games coaches like to play and tournaments the club teams like to get into and the show cases that he will have to attend and the camps (although I like the College camps you can actually tell the coach you are in regression preparing for the spring and even demonstrate)
Just to disrupt his correct training timeline like everybody else where they attain the train to de-train doldrums.
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“I would love to give some advice to the young man”
I would like to here you’re opinion on why a pitcher with today’s methods could get knee pain and it does not sound like the patella tendon.
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“however, I have not seen him pitch yet”
Imagine you’re a blind man with previous pitching experience when you were with sight and this kid said his knee was hurting when he pitched, Mr.B what could be happening?
What should I do?
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“so it would be irresponsible to give advice about something I have not seen”
So then his question would also be irresponsible, I believe you’re better than that.
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“That is part of my problem with you and other Marshall guys I have debated with”
I have no problem discussing this with anybody even the hard-core detractors.
What I dislike is the petty silliness by adults. You at least engage and are somewhat honest. Replace ignored with shelved and you have no contrivance statements.
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“Sight unseen, you give advice and mechanical criticisms”
The work has been done, you can actually back track from injury to the cause and back the other way and is quit simple and always right on. If you’re belief is that the traditional pitching motion is in some way healthy at times then I can see how you can have this thought. If you were to study deeper into the kinesiological information you would be able to do this also like everybody else that does.
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“Do you not think it would be better to see what you evaluate first?”
I went off of the information given, it was probably enough, and I want pitchers to perform this way whether they have sustained an injury or not!
I was the first to call for a low quality video but knew it was not necessary, my answer would remain the same even with the very little information he have. Of course the more information the better. This goes unsaid.
With you’re idea in mind there should be a questioner when a player enters into a pitching injury thread that they have to fill out about their injury, their biological age guess, mechanical landmarks, history, and many more if we were to get it closer, maybe you should start a thread pertaining to this questioner but this kid probably put this question out at many places and got the traditional answer somewhere else and not the less stressful information and has not come back with more info. Aren’t you glad that here at HSBW he can get both forms of information and opinion.
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“Then why not work harder to get him to perform a supposedly “non-injurious” mechanic?”
I booted him out long ago because he learned it all and did not need me (actually all HS grads are not allowed to come in when with a different pitching coach, College) any more, if he needs me now then I have failed him. If he were with me his training would be worlds of different to what he is seeing now and mandatory.
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“I hear that you taught him to ignore Dr. Marshall’s teachings”
This is you’re word, mine would be lowerd full envolvement to get a shot but still better relieved (stress) than traditional. You’re use of pejorative words is predictable. Why do that? Do you even realize you do this?
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“You tell some students to ignore his teachings”
I tell all of them to acquiesce when it is time to go for that HS tryout because they have to, you just can’t bring yourself to say it can you? Should I type it again?
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“yet you get on a message board and tell someone else”
Exactly what I had Tyler work on, you just don’t get it. Do you get it yet?
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“whose mechanics you haven’t even seen”
I have seen his mechanics a thousand times and called out what he does to attain this common force application injury.
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“ It matters not how it got out there that this is the case”
It does matter when I’m no Longer working with him and you are on some kind of quest to denigrate him and you get the idea he was not trained to perform the way he was when this a thread about some kids ailing knee. If you want to talk about TM, start a TM thread. If you want to talk Marshall open up that one.
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“what matters is that you taught him to ignore Marshall”
I can see you have repeated this so many times in you’re head that it has become true for you as predicted in the old saying.
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“ yet you tell others to practice the same tenets that you told TM to ignore”
I’m not asking highheat to perform the full Crowstep motion either, you just can’t put that together, now have you put it together?
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“Excuse me for not being right up to date on when his contract was signed”
My bad, this third degree makes me edgy and distrusting! You do realize he was in HS last spring?
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“I am trying to answer your questions”
Understood and appreciated. Why don’t you ask some about why lateral knee stress causes this pain?
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“Doing what you do in these posts is very time consuming”
If I don’t cover things thoroughly I’m accused of false scenarios! If I cover it well then the ones that want to know will read and the ones that do not can pass or read knowing that they will then go into automatic attack mode. If I write in a loose style and give all the relevant information that I would like to be free to give I am excoriated on every misconceived notion you could think of and have to answer their misconceptions so some kid reading here is not swayed to ignore the information.
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“Looks like his digression has earned him a lot of money!!”
That’s nothing, another Marshall trained kid I had signed in the first round for over 50 Mil. Last year but he had to switch sports to achieve it.
He could pitch well into his 50’s if he trains correctly and tweaks his tenets up but unfortunately some of my pitchers take it to the edge of the tenet envelope and when they start feeling discomfort they take it back the other way. I’d prefer perfect mechanical practices then they have a chance to eliminate all the inflammation at different grades.
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“Glad to see you admit that you have a fault”
Why would you think I wouldn’t? I see displaying faults on bulletin boards is common and recorded.
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“It is much easier to back off what you teach in the real world than to stick to your guns”
That would only be if I did what you are claiming.
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“in an anonymous forum where the student can’t tell you that they don’t understand or are not comfortable with what you are saying”
I’m free to answer any question especially youth pitchers, how many PM’s do you think I receive?
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“To be honest, I might – if they were effective”
I can actually tell you might by you’re cadence but I have seen real good men cave on this!
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“If they are effective, I would let them throw and make minor tweaks”
Why do you think the HS coaches around here shut down scrimmages that they put on at their incoming freshman tryouts when a full Crowstep Marshall pitcher comes in?
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“Then quit acquiescing!!”
Wohhh!! You are the first to ever encourage me on this, what a milestone!!
Been there done that, most of these kids want to pitch, the only way any of them are going to pitch Full Crowstep is if I start another Connie Mack team, it ain’t gonna happen
around here with the mentality displayed so far, the first great Full Crow stepping Marshall top half pitcher is going to come out of the heartland because there are a lot of fathers learning and practicing them there, unfettered.
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“You ARE telling them to do it a different way than what Marshall teaches”
Again you’re gross misunderstanding like most is astounding, Marshall also used to teach a form of the inefficient (acquiesce to pro teams) leg motion also but he is trying to distance himself from this mistake and will always have trouble putting that toothpaste back in the tube
Only the bottom half and we tweak it towards Marshall’s recommended Quisi bottom half motion.
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“Remember, you just said that you told TM to ignore Marshall’s bottom half mechanics”
Ignore is you’re false interpretation here, not mine and does not fit, nice try, are you going to continue in using inflammatory words where they do not exist just to justify your tack. You might want to rethink what you have written here as in other places to have a truthful and meaningful conversation otherwise you will fall further and further into misunderstanding the info.
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“I really don’t understand how you can make a judgement about someones mechanics without ever having seen them?”
Because everybody performs the centripetal traditional pitching mechanics, it’s a no brainier to me.
I hope one day when you’re son becomes a coach (maybe) he will be able to do this also.
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“What if this kids bottom half mechanics are acceptable within the Marshall guidelines?”
Then he will never suffer lower lumbar back, hip, knee and ankle injuries and have the best bottom half drive capabilities, if his knee is sore from pitching (not congenital disease) he is not performing them and performing the known mechanic.
Again a no brainer.
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“To immediately assume that his mechanics are flawed without seeing them is irresponsible.”
No its not, I’ve done it over the phone and although I am controlling the discovery thru particular questioning and fixed the problems many times, it is you who can’t do this because you did not take advantage of the material when being aware of it.
You could do this!
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“Maybe this kid’s bottom half is OK”
Would you want to bet against me? I’ll buy you dinner at the “Claim jumper” if he has a Marshall bottom half tendencies and you can buy me a dinner at “In & Out’ if he is traditional…………..Bbman thinking now….…….see I told you, you could do it.
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“but needs just a little tweak. Can’t know until you see”
I’m OK with this but unfortunately highheat has left the yard.
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“Once again, you taught TM to ignore the bottom half mechanics’
This is like the 8th time you have repeated this false and now mephitic allegation.
Is this is like you?
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“yet you critique this kid’s bottom half mechanics without having seen them”
It’s what I can do, it is what I have done and what I will continue to do, and I’m just a regular shmo trying to eliminate all pitching injuries.
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“If it is good enough to tell one person to ignore Marshall’s tenets”
Yet, this is not what has happened, this is just a fantasy wrapped in an enigma deep with in your continuous misapplied verbiage.
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“bottom or top”
Nice try but the top half stuff has to pretty much be in the realm and the bottom can be helped.
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“then you should not be critiquing someone else’s”
Why again, by using your mal logic and what looks like comprehension but probably not, its just you mucking around trying to get the tooth paste out of the tube.
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“There you go Yard, I have tried to address everything you brought up”
Boy that was refreshing and appreciated, I only had to clear up 10 fallible contentions, 4 oxymorons and 2 paradoxes that you could have put together with just a little effort, Thanx.
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“Don’t accuse me of not answering your questions”
Selective answering while appreciated is hardly answering the tough ones!
Is your son aware of the Marshall information in its entirety?
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“I also think you need to be more responsible with passing out advice – sight unseen,”
That’s you’re hang up not mine, I know the information. You could!
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“especially when it contradicts what you are teaching other students”
You’re going to pull out the especially card now when it comes to you’re bent. Get real.
waphtuoS,quote:
“You keep saying that "Newton would disagree" with the fact that stopping after planting makes you throw harder”
Well now you have used the word fact with in you’re mission statement making the premise of you’re statement try to answer the question about it, biased.
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Momentum is always conserved, meaning you can't "create" it, it must be drawn from somewhere else (I.E. the earth).
Earth has gravity and atmosphere, you’re example here would be in a vacuum.
It is drawn from muscle contraction caused from biochemical reactionable energy.
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” if you keep moving after throwing the ball, your body needs momentum to keep moving, decreasing the ball's momentum.
How can you decrease the balls momentum by its body travel if the ball it is already (“If you keep moving after throwing the ball”) released?
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(because, again, momentum can't be "created". To give the ball momentum, it has to come from your own momentum).
You have lost me here; if momentum cannot be created how did it get created? Don’t answer that I already know! You are confusing creation with conservation. The timeline we are discussing has to do with momentum from previously driving legs of you’re mass than stopped completely that also stops the ball then is restarted from a static body mass, you need to get on the same page by reading the whole thread so we don’t have to re-explain.
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“Decreasing the ball's momentum means either decreasing its mass or decreasing its velocity, and since the ball obviously isn't getting any lighter, it takes away from the velocity of the pitch”
Tell that to the next batter you dose.
This is why we need to conserve it during drive by not having to restart it after the ball and bodies mass and ball has stopped then had to restart.
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”I don't even have to sort through the countless quotes you have in there to realize that you don't have a very solid grip on the laws of physics”
You seem to have some butter fingers also. Stay out of the popcorn when discussing physics in the biokinetic realm. There are many things left out by the static sciences when discussing timelines as you are doing.
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” I don't understand why you would advise someone with front leg knee pain to shorten their stride”
Maybe because you did not read the thread thoroughly as you explained, you missed it, I did explain it.
When pitchers stride more than 70% of their standing height their mass remains behind and then on top of a statically positioned gloveside foot and plant it (heeled to flat, flat or ball to flat) it still ends flat and static, when the driving through contractions and then release you have to recover you’re rotation against an also static leg giving you unworkable stresses in the knee that the knee is not designed to withstand in lateral directions.
When you shorten you’re stride and stay taller you can then re-position and rotate your leg and foot to follow the rotation and add some drive with this leg also.
Especially with some one with these injuries already manifesting themselves.
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"Knee pain" in its own is incredibly vague”
Yes, but knee pain from pitching is not. Even OS has been incredibly debated in the past and miss-diagnosed often and still is, if he would have said he had pain in the patella tendon area that would have been a red flag.
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“giving such an in-depth diagnosis is a bit premature”
Only by you’re standards, not mine. My advice would be the same even if he were healthy.
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“ It could simply be that he has osgood schlatters in his knee, as MANY growing males do.”
Onset OS is prevelent in Biological 10-15 yo males, if highheat falls biologically there you might be right but my mechanical fix would also help here also by eliminating the stress with in the same mechanics. I currently have 2 boys one 10 and one 11 with this affliction but both at a low grade and they do have to take brakes but greatly take advantage of the same info, this congenital condition normally corrects itself with in a short period of time depending on the grade. As you know it does not take pitching to discover this affliction but is prevalent in athletes, I had one kid 8 years ago with a high-grade affliction who is now the top running back in OC.
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“because trying to stop yourself with your foot not pointing in the direction you are heading ( with spikes on) could be twisting the knee, leading to soreness”
Watch it here! This is what I did and you are getting this right, you might catch the rath of the other posters for doing the same thing? What makes you think you can make this statement with out seeing the young man?